Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

[Christoph Ortner]

ok, thank you both for this. I'll keep it in mind for the next opportunity.
Christoph


On Monday, 25 April 2016 12:49:08 UTC+1, Viral Shah wrote:
>
> +1 to what Steve says. We do a bunch of stuff with grants at Julia 
> Computing, which fund new capabilities, or building domain specific 
> packages. If you look at our blog posts, you can see the kind of work 
> funded through such grants. In the simplest case, it will greatly help both 
> parties, if grants include a small budget for buying support from Julia 
> Computing.
>
> Please reach out to me about any such collaborations or joint grants - big 
> or small.
>
> -viral
>
> On Saturday, April 23, 2016 at 2:00:27 AM UTC+5:30, Steven G. Johnson 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 4:04:29 PM UTC-4, Christoph Ortner wrote:
>>>
>>> I've run into a similar problem in the past, but this was before Julia 
>>> Computing. If `Julia Professional Edition` or `Deployment Edition` 
>>> comes with some reasonable features are not included in the free version, 
>>> then maybe it could be justified?
>>>
>>
>> No, you would justify it with "Our research goal X would be greatly 
>> facilitated by implementing features Y and/or fixing bugs Z, and it is more 
>> practical/cost-effective to hire JC as consultants to do this than to try 
>> to find in-house expertise to solve the same problems."
>>
>

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

[Viral Shah]

+1 to what Steve says. We do a bunch of stuff with grants at Julia 
Computing, which fund new capabilities, or building domain specific 
packages. If you look at our blog posts, you can see the kind of work 
funded through such grants. In the simplest case, it will greatly help both 
parties, if grants include a small budget for buying support from Julia 
Computing.

Please reach out to me about any such collaborations or joint grants - big 
or small.

-viral

On Saturday, April 23, 2016 at 2:00:27 AM UTC+5:30, Steven G. Johnson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 4:04:29 PM UTC-4, Christoph Ortner wrote:
>>
>> I've run into a similar problem in the past, but this was before Julia 
>> Computing. If `Julia Professional Edition` or `Deployment Edition` comes 
>> with some reasonable features are not included in the free version, then 
>> maybe it could be justified?
>>
>
> No, you would justify it with "Our research goal X would be greatly 
> facilitated by implementing features Y and/or fixing bugs Z, and it is more 
> practical/cost-effective to hire JC as consultants to do this than to try 
> to find in-house expertise to solve the same problems."
>

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

[Christoph Ortner]

On Friday, 22 April 2016 21:30:27 UTC+1, Steven G. Johnson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 4:04:29 PM UTC-4, Christoph Ortner wrote:
>>
>> I've run into a similar problem in the past, but this was before Julia 
>> Computing. If `Julia Professional Edition` or `Deployment Edition` comes 
>> with some reasonable features are not included in the free version, then 
>> maybe it could be justified?
>>
>
> No, you would justify it with "Our research goal X would be greatly 
> facilitated by implementing features Y and/or fixing bugs Z, and it is more 
> practical/cost-effective to hire JC as consultants to do this than to try 
> to find in-house expertise to solve the same problems."
>

I understand that this seems to be required at the moment, but this is not 
so easy to justify. It would be easier to justify buying a license because 
"edition X has features Y, Z, ..."  (But maybe this goes against the open 
source spirit.)

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

[Steven G. Johnson]

On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 4:04:29 PM UTC-4, Christoph Ortner wrote:
>
> I've run into a similar problem in the past, but this was before Julia 
> Computing. If `Julia Professional Edition` or `Deployment Edition` comes 
> with some reasonable features are not included in the free version, then 
> maybe it could be justified?
>

No, you would justify it with "Our research goal X would be greatly 
facilitated by implementing features Y and/or fixing bugs Z, and it is more 
practical/cost-effective to hire JC as consultants to do this than to try 
to find in-house expertise to solve the same problems."

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

[Christoph Ortner]

I've run into a similar problem in the past, but this was before Julia 
Computing. If `Julia Professional Edition` or `Deployment Edition` comes 
with some reasonable features are not included in the free version, then 
maybe it could be justified?

Christoph

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

[Daniel Carrera]

On Friday, 22 April 2016 01:32:51 UTC+2, Sheehan Olver wrote:
>
>
> There is also a problem with including a postdoc with the expectation of 
> her/him carrying out basic software tasks: time spent on software 
> development is not really a help getting an academic job.
>


That's exactly how I feel right now. I am extremely grateful to the Julia 
community, and I'd like to give something back, but I am trying to get a 
postdoc and until I'm out of the postdoc phase of my career, I feel I 
cannot justify any activity that is not going to lead directly to a paper. 
:-(

Cheers,
Daniel.

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

['Tobias Knopp' via julia-users]

maybe academic partners is not the correct term. But if you for instance 
need HPC but writing HPC infrastructure is not your expertise (hence you 
won't get funding for that) there might be other universities that do 
research on HPC and might be quite interesting getting in touch with a new 
programming language were they could bring in their HPC expertise.

Cheers,

Tobias

Am Freitag, 22. April 2016 05:55:37 UTC+2 schrieb Sheehan Olver:
>
>
> Yes software development  “because it is needed” for research works well, 
> and indeed there are many cases where people have built academic successful 
> careers while developing software.
>
> The catch is that there’s always a lot of time consuming maintenance tasks 
> involved in keeping open source software useable, and it feels unfair to to 
> ask people on temporary contracts to do this…so I’m looking for another 
> way: right now either "lab technician”-like positions or hiring 
> consultants.  
>
> For your “academic partner” suggestion, how would that work?  I can 
> imagine grants funding postdocs, lab technicians or possibly consultants, 
> but I’m not sure where academic partner fits in.  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 22 Apr 2016, at 1:42 PM, 'Tobias Knopp' via julia-users <
> julia...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
> Well you mentioned "Thread support for Julia" and I could imagine that 
> there are academic partners that could work on this if they could get 
> funding.
>
> The problem with finding a postdoc that does software development is 
> indeed tricky. Usually this will not be full time but people will work on a 
> scientific topic and write software "because it is needed". There are 
> various people around Julia that work this way. Best example is Jeff who 
> made his Phd while developing Julia. The fftw library was also developed as 
> part of a research work.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tobias
>
> Am Freitag, 22. April 2016 01:32:51 UTC+2 schrieb Sheehan Olver:
>>
>>
>> Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “academic partner”, but I can’t 
>> imagine academics jumping at the chance of working on someone else’s code…  
>>
>> There is also a problem with including a postdoc with the expectation of 
>> her/him carrying out basic software tasks: time spent on software 
>> development is not really a help getting an academic job.
>>
>> So the consulting model seems like a good alternative, I’ll look into it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 22 Apr 2016, at 1:52 AM, 'Tobias Knopp' via julia-users <
>> julia...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> An alternative would be to instead make a collaboration with an academic 
>> partner that is capable of working on this. There are various large open 
>> source projects that use this model. 
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Tobias
>>
>>
>> Am Donnerstag, 21. April 2016 16:56:57 UTC+2 schrieb Steven G. Johnson:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 11:58:02 PM UTC-4, Sheehan Olver wrote:

 Has anyone included "Julia Computing" charges in a grant proposal?  Is 
 this something that should be encouraged?

>>>
>>> That would count as hiring a consultant with your grant funding.  Some 
>>> funding agencies allow this (e.g. NSF allows it in the USA), others may 
>>> not.   See e.g. the NSF guidelines (
>>> http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/policydocs/pappguide/nsf14001/aag_5.jsp -- 
>>> scroll down to "Consultant Services").
>>>
>>> I've seen this kinds of thing in grants a few times.   You generally get 
>>> a "letter of intent" from the consultant indicating what they will do and 
>>> their fees.
>>>
>>> Seems like a great thing to do if you can do it, but I would only expect 
>>> it to be possible in a small minority of grants --- you need to make a 
>>> convincing case that the consulting is essential for the core goal of the 
>>> research project, and that hiring a consultant is more cost-effective than 
>>> doing it in-house.
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

[Sheehan Olver]

Yes software development  “because it is needed” for research works 
well, and indeed there are many cases where people have built academic 
successful careers while developing software.

The catch is that there’s always a lot of time consuming maintenance 
tasks involved in keeping open source software useable, and it feels unfair to 
to ask people on temporary contracts to do this…so I’m looking for another way: 
right now either "lab technician”-like positions or hiring consultants.  

For your “academic partner” suggestion, how would that work?  I can 
imagine grants funding postdocs, lab technicians or possibly consultants, but 
I’m not sure where academic partner fits in.  






> On 22 Apr 2016, at 1:42 PM, 'Tobias Knopp' via julia-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well you mentioned "Thread support for Julia" and I could imagine that there 
> are academic partners that could work on this if they could get funding.
> 
> The problem with finding a postdoc that does software development is indeed 
> tricky. Usually this will not be full time but people will work on a 
> scientific topic and write software "because it is needed". There are various 
> people around Julia that work this way. Best example is Jeff who made his Phd 
> while developing Julia. The fftw library was also developed as part of a 
> research work.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Tobias
> 
> Am Freitag, 22. April 2016 01:32:51 UTC+2 schrieb Sheehan Olver:
> 
> Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “academic partner”, but I can’t 
> imagine academics jumping at the chance of working on someone else’s code…  
> 
> There is also a problem with including a postdoc with the expectation of 
> her/him carrying out basic software tasks: time spent on software development 
> is not really a help getting an academic job.
> 
> So the consulting model seems like a good alternative, I’ll look into it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 22 Apr 2016, at 1:52 AM, 'Tobias Knopp' via julia-users 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> An alternative would be to instead make a collaboration with an academic 
>> partner that is capable of working on this. There are various large open 
>> source projects that use this model. 
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Tobias
>> 
>> 
>> Am Donnerstag, 21. April 2016 16:56:57 UTC+2 schrieb Steven G. Johnson:
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 11:58:02 PM UTC-4, Sheehan Olver wrote:
>> Has anyone included "Julia Computing" charges in a grant proposal?  Is this 
>> something that should be encouraged?
>> 
>> That would count as hiring a consultant with your grant funding.  Some 
>> funding agencies allow this (e.g. NSF allows it in the USA), others may not. 
>>   See e.g. the NSF guidelines 
>> (http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/policydocs/pappguide/nsf14001/aag_5.jsp 
>>  -- scroll 
>> down to "Consultant Services").
>> 
>> I've seen this kinds of thing in grants a few times.   You generally get a 
>> "letter of intent" from the consultant indicating what they will do and 
>> their fees.
>> 
>> Seems like a great thing to do if you can do it, but I would only expect it 
>> to be possible in a small minority of grants --- you need to make a 
>> convincing case that the consulting is essential for the core goal of the 
>> research project, and that hiring a consultant is more cost-effective than 
>> doing it in-house.
> 

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

['Tobias Knopp' via julia-users]

Well you mentioned "Thread support for Julia" and I could imagine that 
there are academic partners that could work on this if they could get 
funding.

The problem with finding a postdoc that does software development is indeed 
tricky. Usually this will not be full time but people will work on a 
scientific topic and write software "because it is needed". There are 
various people around Julia that work this way. Best example is Jeff who 
made his Phd while developing Julia. The fftw library was also developed as 
part of a research work.

Cheers

Tobias

Am Freitag, 22. April 2016 01:32:51 UTC+2 schrieb Sheehan Olver:
>
>
> Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “academic partner”, but I can’t 
> imagine academics jumping at the chance of working on someone else’s code…  
>
> There is also a problem with including a postdoc with the expectation of 
> her/him carrying out basic software tasks: time spent on software 
> development is not really a help getting an academic job.
>
> So the consulting model seems like a good alternative, I’ll look into it.
>
>
>
>
> On 22 Apr 2016, at 1:52 AM, 'Tobias Knopp' via julia-users <
> julia...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
> An alternative would be to instead make a collaboration with an academic 
> partner that is capable of working on this. There are various large open 
> source projects that use this model. 
>
> Cheers
>
> Tobias
>
>
> Am Donnerstag, 21. April 2016 16:56:57 UTC+2 schrieb Steven G. Johnson:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 11:58:02 PM UTC-4, Sheehan Olver wrote:
>>>
>>> Has anyone included "Julia Computing" charges in a grant proposal?  Is 
>>> this something that should be encouraged?
>>>
>>
>> That would count as hiring a consultant with your grant funding.  Some 
>> funding agencies allow this (e.g. NSF allows it in the USA), others may 
>> not.   See e.g. the NSF guidelines (
>> http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/policydocs/pappguide/nsf14001/aag_5.jsp -- 
>> scroll down to "Consultant Services").
>>
>> I've seen this kinds of thing in grants a few times.   You generally get 
>> a "letter of intent" from the consultant indicating what they will do and 
>> their fees.
>>
>> Seems like a great thing to do if you can do it, but I would only expect 
>> it to be possible in a small minority of grants --- you need to make a 
>> convincing case that the consulting is essential for the core goal of the 
>> research project, and that hiring a consultant is more cost-effective than 
>> doing it in-house.
>>
>
>

Re: [julia-users] Re: Grant funding and Julia Computing?

[Sheehan Olver]

Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “academic partner”, but I can’t 
imagine academics jumping at the chance of working on someone else’s code…  

There is also a problem with including a postdoc with the expectation of 
her/him carrying out basic software tasks: time spent on software development 
is not really a help getting an academic job.

So the consulting model seems like a good alternative, I’ll look into it.




> On 22 Apr 2016, at 1:52 AM, 'Tobias Knopp' via julia-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> An alternative would be to instead make a collaboration with an academic 
> partner that is capable of working on this. There are various large open 
> source projects that use this model. 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Tobias
> 
> 
> Am Donnerstag, 21. April 2016 16:56:57 UTC+2 schrieb Steven G. Johnson:
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 11:58:02 PM UTC-4, Sheehan Olver wrote:
> Has anyone included "Julia Computing" charges in a grant proposal?  Is this 
> something that should be encouraged?
> 
> That would count as hiring a consultant with your grant funding.  Some 
> funding agencies allow this (e.g. NSF allows it in the USA), others may not.  
>  See e.g. the NSF guidelines 
> (http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/policydocs/pappguide/nsf14001/aag_5.jsp 
>  -- scroll 
> down to "Consultant Services").
> 
> I've seen this kinds of thing in grants a few times.   You generally get a 
> "letter of intent" from the consultant indicating what they will do and their 
> fees.
> 
> Seems like a great thing to do if you can do it, but I would only expect it 
> to be possible in a small minority of grants --- you need to make a 
> convincing case that the consulting is essential for the core goal of the 
> research project, and that hiring a consultant is more cost-effective than 
> doing it in-house.