KR> Split elevator & Gap Seals for elevator/rudder

[Frank Hamelly]

I want to use a split elevator on my KR and am wondering how to attach the
two halves in the middle to maintain structural integrity.  I've seen that
Steve Anderson's KR used a split elevator but how were the two sides
fused?

Also, thinking about using gap seals between the horizontal and vertical
stabs and the elevator/rudder.  I have a 7/8" gap to fill which seems like
it would be much easier to use than building up the bull nose on the
leading edges while providing clear access to the hinges.  I'm using the
rod-end bearing hinge design, with 5 hinges instead of 3.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Frank Hamelly
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://list.krnet.org/mailman/private/krnet_list.krnet.org/attachments/20160530/0cfb6f68/attachment.html>

KR> Split elevator & Gap Seals for elevator/rudder

[Mark Langford]

Frank Hamelly wrote:

> I want to use a split elevator on my KR and am wondering how to
> attach the two halves in the middle to maintain structural integrity.
> I've seen that Steve Anderson's KR used a split elevator but how were
> the two sides fused?

Steve's are joined something like the enclosed sketch (although maybe it 
has two bolts), using some thicker spar material (maybe an inch tall) 
and 1/8" aluminum plates front and back.  I thought about doing 
something similar to mine when I was building it, but with 20/20 
hindsight, it would have been a waste of time and weight.  I used simple 
Oilite (bronze impregnated bushings) hinge bushings in the plans 
aluminum brackets, and they are still slop free after 1130 hours.  I put 
the access slots on the bottom of the horizontal stab (or elevator, I 
forget which) so that the slot was only exposed when the elevator was 
fully deflected.  This way it didn't affect flow at the joint.  More on 
that at http://www.n56ml.com/kht.html .

> Also, thinking about using gap seals between the horizontal and
> vertical stabs and the elevator/rudder. I have a 7/8" gap to fill
> which seems like it would be much easier to use than building up the
> bull nose on the leading edges while providing clear access to the
> hinges. I'm using the rod-end bearing hinge design, with 5 hinges
> instead of 3.

You've probably seen how I did the bull-nosed thing (at 
http://www.n56ml.com/kvs.html ), but what I didn't show is how I deleted 
the cutouts for accessing the connecting bolts, because I deleted the 
connecting bolts entirely by using a 3/16" 4130 tube to join the rudder 
to the vertical stab.  It dropped in from above and got the top two 
hinges, and then another short one was inserted from below.  Both had a 
little 4130 tab welded on the end for a #6 wood screw to hold the pins 
in place, although the bottom one was captured by the tailspring and the 
top one had gravity working for it. The 4130 tube was a lot lighter than 
the three bolts and nuts would have been, and it was dirt simple to get 
the elecvator offbut again, there was no slop after 1130 hours 
anyway, using only three hinges.  And I use my rudder a lot...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Split elevator & Gap Seals for elevator/rudder

[Gary]

On 5/30/2016 12:00 PM, Frank Hamelly via KRnet wrote:
> I want to use a split elevator on my KR and am wondering how to attach 
> the two halves in the middle to maintain structural integrity.  I've 
> seen that Steve Anderson's KR used a split elevator but how were the 
> two sides fused?
>
> Also, thinking about using gap seals between the horizontal and 
> vertical stabs and the elevator/rudder.  I have a 7/8" gap to fill 
> which seems like it would be much easier to use than building up the 
> bull nose on the leading edges while providing clear access to the 
> hinges.  I'm using the rod-end bearing hinge design, with 5 hinges 
> instead of 3.
>
> Thanks in advance for the advice.
>
> Frank Hamelly
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

You can see my elevator horn, left and right sides bolt to the elevator 
spar(s) with one piece back up plate on rear side of spar(s)(not 
shown).  Wood spar sawed in the middle.

-- 
Gary
Soli Deo Gloria
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://list.krnet.org/mailman/private/krnet_list.krnet.org/attachments/20160530/ebb133dd/attachment.html>

KR> Split elevator & Gap Seals for elevator/rudder

[Mark Langford]

Hmmm.  Looks like I killed jpg enclosures last night while trying to 
enable HTML.  Let's see if this fixes it.  Hopefully, there's a jpg 
enclosed.  But if not, I'm still working on it

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Split elevator & Gap Seals for elevator/rudder

[Mark Langford]

One more try and I'm giving up and going flying.  Hopefully it's 
enclosed this time around...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Split elevator & Gap Seals for elevator/rudder

[Jeff Scott]

?I built a removable split elevator with gap seals when I rebuilt the tail on 
my KR in 2005.  There are some photos, although not very detailed at 
 and 
.  The gap seals are a single 
laminate of Carbon Fiber laid up on a waxed bench top, then squeegeed with peel 
ply just as lean and thin as I could make them.  That made the CF roughly .010" 
thick.  I laid it up along the trailing edge of the horizontal stab with a 2" 
overlap onto the stab and 2" over the elevator both top and bottom.  The CF 
strip was then feathered into the horizontal stab.  Small removable cutouts 
were added along the lower gap seal to access the elevator mounting bolts.

The spars for the two elevator halves are clamped between 2 pieces of 4130 
plate with 3 AN3 bolts through each spar half.  I don't know if an engineer 
would approve this installation, but it has been flying on my KR for 600 hrs 
now.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM
?
-

On 5/30/2016 12:00 PM, Frank Hamelly via KRnet wrote:

I want to use a split elevator on my KR and am wondering how to attach the two 
halves in the middle to maintain structural integrity.? I've seen that Steve 
Anderson's KR used a split elevator but how were the two sides fused??
?
Also, thinking about using gap seals between the horizontal and vertical stabs 
and the elevator/rudder.? I have a 7/8" gap to fill which seems like it would 
be much easier to use than building up the bull nose on the leading edges while 
providing clear access to the hinges.? I'm using the rod-end bearing hinge 
design, with 5 hinges instead of 3.?
?
Thanks in advance for the advice.
?
Frank Hamelly
?? ? ?
_

KR> photos?

[Larry Flesner]

>One more try and I'm giving up and going flying.
>Mark Langford
+++

I hope you enjoyed the flight. :-)

Larry Flesner 

KR> Split elevator & Gap Seals for elevator/rudder

[billjacobs...@yahoo.com]

Bill Jacobs


-- Original message--From: Mark Langford via KRnet Date: Mon, May 30, 
2016 2:12 PMTo: KRnet;Cc: Mark Langford;Subject:Re: KR> Split elevator & Gap 
Seals for elevator/rudderFrank Hamelly wrote:> I want to use a split elevator 
on my KR and am wondering how to> attach the two halves in the middle to 
maintain structural integrity.> I've seen that Steve Anderson's KR used a split 
elevator but how were> the two sides fused?Steve's are joined something like 
the enclosed sketch (although maybe it has two bolts), using some thicker spar 
material (maybe an inch tall) and 1/8" aluminum plates front and back.  I 
thought about doing something similar to mine when I was building it, but with 
20/20 hindsight, it would have been a waste of time and weight.  I used simple 
Oilite (bronze impregnated bushings) hinge bushings in the plans aluminum 
brackets, and they are still slop free after 1130 hours.  I put the access 
slots on the bottom of the horizontal stab (or elevator, I forget which) so 
that the slot was only exposed when the elevator was fully deflected.  This way 
it didn't affect flow at the joint.  More on that at 
http://www.n56ml.com/kht.html .> Also, thinking about using gap seals between 
the horizontal and> vertical stabs and the elevator/rudder. I have a 7/8" gap 
to fill> which seems like it would be much easier to use than building up the> 
bull nose on the leading edges while providing clear access to the> hinges. I'm 
using the rod-end bearing hinge design, with 5 hinges> instead of 3.You've 
probably seen how I did the bull-nosed thing (at http://www.n56ml.com/kvs.html 
), but what I didn't show is how I deleted the cutouts for accessing the 
connecting bolts, because I deleted the connecting bolts entirely by using a 
3/16" 4130 tube to join the rudder to the vertical stab.  It dropped in from 
above and got the top two hinges, and then another short one was inserted from 
below.  Both had a little 4130 tab welded on the end for a #6 wood screw to 
hold the pins in place, although the bottom one was captured by the tailspring 
and the top one had gravity working for it. The 4130 tube was a lot lighter 
than the three bolts and nuts would have been, and it was dirt simple to get 
the elecvator offbut again, there was no slop after 1130 hours anyway, 
using only three hinges.  And I use my rudder a lot...Mark LangfordML at 
N56ML.comhttp://www.n56ml.com___Search
 the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.To UNsubscribe 
from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.orgplease see other 
KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.htmlsee 
http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://list.krnet.org/mailman/private/krnet_list.krnet.org/attachments/20160530/850cd43e/attachment.html>

KR> Split elevator & Gap Seals for elevator/rudder

[billjacobs...@yahoo.com]

Sorry i pushed the send button first. I know this is off list 
butt..Mark,What do you consider the best book on carbon fiber in a how to 
book for dyi?As always i appreciate your input.Bill Jacobs


-- Original message--From: Mark Langford via KRnet Date: Mon, May 30, 
2016 2:12 PMTo: KRnet;Cc: Mark Langford;Subject:Re: KR> Split elevator & Gap 
Seals for elevator/rudderFrank Hamelly wrote:> I want to use a split elevator 
on my KR and am wondering how to> attach the two halves in the middle to 
maintain structural integrity.> I've seen that Steve Anderson's KR used a split 
elevator but how were> the two sides fused?Steve's are joined something like 
the enclosed sketch (although maybe it has two bolts), using some thicker spar 
material (maybe an inch tall) and 1/8" aluminum plates front and back.  I 
thought about doing something similar to mine when I was building it, but with 
20/20 hindsight, it would have been a waste of time and weight.  I used simple 
Oilite (bronze impregnated bushings) hinge bushings in the plans aluminum 
brackets, and they are still slop free after 1130 hours.  I put the access 
slots on the bottom of the horizontal stab (or elevator, I forget which) so 
that the slot was only exposed when the elevator was fully deflected.  This way 
it didn't affect flow at the joint.  More on that at 
http://www.n56ml.com/kht.html .> Also, thinking about using gap seals between 
the horizontal and> vertical stabs and the elevator/rudder. I have a 7/8" gap 
to fill> which seems like it would be much easier to use than building up the> 
bull nose on the leading edges while providing clear access to the> hinges. I'm 
using the rod-end bearing hinge design, with 5 hinges> instead of 3.You've 
probably seen how I did the bull-nosed thing (at http://www.n56ml.com/kvs.html 
), but what I didn't show is how I deleted the cutouts for accessing the 
connecting bolts, because I deleted the connecting bolts entirely by using a 
3/16" 4130 tube to join the rudder to the vertical stab.  It dropped in from 
above and got the top two hinges, and then another short one was inserted from 
below.  Both had a little 4130 tab welded on the end for a #6 wood screw to 
hold the pins in place, although the bottom one was captured by the tailspring 
and the top one had gravity working for it. The 4130 tube was a lot lighter 
than the three bolts and nuts would have been, and it was dirt simple to get 
the elecvator offbut again, there was no slop after 1130 hours anyway, 
using only three hinges.  And I use my rudder a lot...Mark LangfordML at 
N56ML.comhttp://www.n56ml.com___Search
 the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.To UNsubscribe 
from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.orgplease see other 
KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.htmlsee 
http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://list.krnet.org/mailman/private/krnet_list.krnet.org/attachments/20160530/d0c8e987/attachment.html>

KR> composite how-to

[Mark Langford]

Bill Jacobs wrote:

 > What do you consider the best book on carbon fiber in a how to book 
for dyi?

I don't think I have a book specific to carbon fiber...it's done the 
same way as fiberglass...mix up epoxy, wet out the carbon fiber, and 
apply.  The biggest difference is that carbon fiber is stiffer and less 
likely to follow curves, and since it's black, it's more difficult to 
ascertain if it's completely wet out.  Other than that, it's about the 
same as fiberglassing.  There's a lot on fiberglassing shown in the 
links given at www.n56ml.com, particularly wings, vertical and 
horizontal stabs, control surfaces, fwd and aft decks, etc.

One aid to all composite work is to use clear "builder's plastic" to 
define the exact shape you need (with a Sharpie), and then cut it out 
with a couple of inches extra around the edges, then wet out the cloth 
directly on the plastic.  That way when you pick it up off the table to 
transfer it to the part, it will retain its shape and not change 
dimension or weave orientation.There are several examples of that on 
my web page also.  The spinner page shows that pretty clearly, at 
http://www.n56ml.com/spinner/ .

The KR builder's manual gives some good tips on how to do trailing edges 
and sharp corners.  I'm sure there are also many others in the projects 
listed on www.krnet.org .

If you're talking about actual design work with carbon fiber, it's not 
trivial...but I can think of nowhere on a KR where you'd need that, 
unless you're going to do something radical like carbon fiber spars.

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> elevator splice sketch enclosed (hopefully)

[Mark Langford]

Here's the lap joint I mentioned earlier...hopefully enclosed.
-- 
Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: elevator_joint.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 17493 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<http://list.krnet.org/mailman/private/krnet_list.krnet.org/attachments/20160530/08e73c7b/attachment.JPG>

KR> composite vacuum bagging?

[Global Solutions]

  What do you consider the best book on  vacuum bagging setups for dyi?

KR> composite how-to

[rbaalman at cox.net]

> Bill Jacobs wrote:
>  > What do you consider the best book on carbon fiber in a how to book 
> for dyi?
> In addition to what Mark mentioned, when working with CF, it is stiff, but 
> when you use a heat gun or hair dryer on it and the resin, the CF lays out 
> nicely to about any curve and allows the excess resin to be squeegeed off. 
> Also, 1.5 oz or lighter FB deck cloth will gve a virtually pinhole free 
> surface.
Roger Baalman
rbaalman at cox.net
>

KR> composite vacuum bagging?

[Chris Prata]

Youtube is your friend here...

> To: krnet at list.krnet.org
> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 20:49:45 -0400
> Subject: KR> composite vacuum bagging?
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> CC: smcdonal at kos.net
> 
>   What do you consider the best book on  vacuum bagging setups for dyi?
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> Fuselage to wing fairings?

[rbaalman at cox.net]

> Pete Klapp wrote:
> 
>  >>What are you leaning towards? If the fuselage sides are vertical as 
> mine are, is a small fillets okay?<<
> 
> Small fillets at the L/E is preferred.  I increased the fillet radius from 
> the the wing center going aft and then extended it beyond the wing T/E by 
> another 2 foot(ish). Kinda what Jeff Scott did.
Roger 
rbaalman at cox.net
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: roger 041.JPG
Type: image/pjpeg
Size: 23100 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<http://list.krnet.org/mailman/private/krnet_list.krnet.org/attachments/20160530/026cc29a/attachment.JPG>
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: roger 043.JPG
Type: image/pjpeg
Size: 25658 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<http://list.krnet.org/mailman/private/krnet_list.krnet.org/attachments/20160530/026cc29a/attachment-0001.JPG>