KR> post mortum
Guys, I did not get back to check the engine until this morning. I had not touched anything before tearing into it. The prop was still in the same position as when it stopped. I did move it a couple degrees back and forth to verify if the crank was still connected through and it was. I could also feel that it was going into compression on what ever firing order it had stopped at. First thing I did was remove the top cover. Suspecting bearing or connecting rod familiar. When I opened the top I was almost kind of disappointed. There is nothing broke bent or other wise in nothing but the pristine condition that it was in when it was originally closed up. There is no visible sign of metal in the case or the oil reservoir. I grabbed onto each connecting rod and tried to shake or move them. The only motion was the side to side in parallel with the crank. Next I moved the prop to see if everything moved together and it did. I could see most of the cam and lifters and they looked OK from above. I slowly swung the prop through a half revolution and everything continued just the way it should. Nothing at all to make a sudden stop. The next thought was the distributor. I pulled all the wires and took the cap off. The rotor was at a position that was pointing towards the opposite side of the motor ( I think at #5 but not sure right now) I moved the prop back and forth again just a couple degrees and the rotor moved instantly in both directions. The next thing I will do is pull the plugs and try to see in the cylinders for anything. But I don't have much hope at this point of seeing anything in the heads for a couple of reasons. I am looking for something that caused an immediate stopping at full power. If detonation was a factor I would think I would have found metal already somewhere. If swallowing a valve or more I would have expected a loss of power first. I guess looking for some good news the replaced EIS instrument seems to be working flawlessly just like I observed in Mark Langfords panel. And I found where a small oil leak was coming from that had been pestering me the past few weeks. Right now Just looking at the engine I would defy anyone that didn't know it had quit from looking in there and saying looks great Let's start it up and go fly. Thinking more about detonation - Would there actually be any debris left over or would it burn up and exit the exhaust? Could it be so quick that there would not be any signal of a problem? Right now I'm sitting at work and just shoot at this blindly from what very little I think I know. Please any and all comments. The reason that detonation has come into my head is that I can not honestly say that I remember making sure that I was full rich at the start of the take off roll. Thanks, Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA. joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com
Réf. : KR> post mortum
Joe,
I experienced only one engine sudden stop in my life, and that was due to
a seized main bearing. If your prop does not feel harder when you turn it,
then that could probably be excluded. If everything mechanical turns
smooth and unobstructed as you describe, then, most probably, we are
looking at an ignition failure.
Time to call the CSI team?
Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France
"Joseph H. Horton" <joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com>
Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
10/07/2006 15:06
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 10/07/2006 15:09
Pour : corvaircr...@mylist.net, kr...@mylist.net
cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : KR> post mortum
Guys,
I did not get back to check the engine until this morning. I had
not touched anything before tearing into it. The prop was still in the
same position as when it stopped. I did move it a couple degrees back and
forth to verify if the crank was still connected through and it was. I
could also feel that it was going into compression on what ever firing
order it had stopped at.
First thing I did was remove the top cover. Suspecting bearing or
connecting rod familiar. When I opened the top I was almost kind of
disappointed. There is nothing broke bent or other wise in nothing but
the pristine condition that it was in when it was originally closed up.
There is no visible sign of metal in the case or the oil reservoir. I
grabbed onto each connecting rod and tried to shake or move them. The
only motion was the side to side in parallel with the crank.
Next I moved the prop to see if everything moved together and it
did. I could see most of the cam and lifters and they looked OK from
above. I slowly swung the prop through a half revolution and everything
continued just the way it should. Nothing at all to make a sudden stop.
The next thought was the distributor. I pulled all the wires and
took the cap off. The rotor was at a position that was pointing towards
the opposite side of the motor ( I think at #5 but not sure right now) I
moved the prop back and forth again just a couple degrees and the rotor
moved instantly in both directions.
The next thing I will do is pull the plugs and try to see in the
cylinders for anything. But I don't have much hope at this point of
seeing anything in the heads for a couple of reasons. I am looking for
something that caused an immediate stopping at full power. If detonation
was a factor I would think I would have found metal already somewhere. If
swallowing a valve or more I would have expected a loss of power first.
I guess looking for some good news the replaced EIS instrument
seems to be working flawlessly just like I observed in Mark Langfords
panel. And I found where a small oil leak was coming from that had been
pestering me the past few weeks.
Right now Just looking at the engine I would defy anyone that
didn't know it had quit from looking in there and saying looks great
Let's start it up and go fly.
Thinking more about detonation - Would there actually be any
debris left over or would it burn up and exit the exhaust? Could it be so
quick that there would not be any signal of a problem?
Right now I'm sitting at work and just shoot at this blindly from
what very little I think I know.
Please any and all comments. The reason that detonation has come into my
head is that I can not honestly say that I remember making sure that I
was full rich at the start of the take off roll.
Thanks,
Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA.
joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com
___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> post mortum
Joe when it stopped was it instantly or did it act as if it starved for fuel or flooded? That POP could have also been part of a very rich issue due to the fuel system dumping fuel into the exhaust and igniting it before the eng quit. Even in a climb the prop should not lock up unless something seized, you ruled that out already. Ignition issues will not lock up the eng in flight unless the timing gets so far outa wack that a cyl fires while its way advanced. I'm betting on the fuel sys or ign. Kenny W - Original Message - From: "Joseph H. Horton" <joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com> To: <corvaircr...@mylist.net>; <kr...@mylist.net> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:06 AM Subject: KR> post mortum > Guys, >I did not get back to check the engine until this morning. I had > not touched anything before tearing into it. The prop was still in the > same position as when it stopped. I did move it a couple degrees back and > forth to verify if the crank was still connected through and it was. I > could also feel that it was going into compression on what ever firing > order it had stopped at. >First thing I did was remove the top cover. Suspecting bearing or > connecting rod familiar. When I opened the top I was almost kind of > disappointed. There is nothing broke bent or other wise in nothing but > the pristine condition that it was in when it was originally closed up. > There is no visible sign of metal in the case or the oil reservoir. I > grabbed onto each connecting rod and tried to shake or move them. The > only motion was the side to side in parallel with the crank. >Next I moved the prop to see if everything moved together and it > did. I could see most of the cam and lifters and they looked OK from > above. I slowly swung the prop through a half revolution and everything > continued just the way it should. Nothing at all to make a sudden stop. >The next thought was the distributor. I pulled all the wires and > took the cap off. The rotor was at a position that was pointing towards > the opposite side of the motor ( I think at #5 but not sure right now) I > moved the prop back and forth again just a couple degrees and the rotor > moved instantly in both directions. >The next thing I will do is pull the plugs and try to see in the > cylinders for anything. But I don't have much hope at this point of > seeing anything in the heads for a couple of reasons. I am looking for > something that caused an immediate stopping at full power. If detonation > was a factor I would think I would have found metal already somewhere. If > swallowing a valve or more I would have expected a loss of power first. >I guess looking for some good news the replaced EIS instrument > seems to be working flawlessly just like I observed in Mark Langfords > panel. And I found where a small oil leak was coming from that had been > pestering me the past few weeks. >Right now Just looking at the engine I would defy anyone that > didn't know it had quit from looking in there and saying looks great > Let's start it up and go fly. >Thinking more about detonation - Would there actually be any > debris left over or would it burn up and exit the exhaust? Could it be so > quick that there would not be any signal of a problem? >Right now I'm sitting at work and just shoot at this blindly from > what very little I think I know. > Please any and all comments. The reason that detonation has come into my > head is that I can not honestly say that I remember making sure that I > was full rich at the start of the take off roll. > Thanks, > Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA. > joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 > >
KR> post mortum
Kenny W wrote: > Ignition issues will not lock up the eng > in flight unless the timing gets so far outa wack that a cyl fires while > its > way advanced. I'm sure you're not saying that something like a shorted condenser wire or high voltage coil wire that's come loose wouldn't stop that engine instantly, but it's sort of worded that way. I once pulled my "throttle" out on crosswind since I was almost to pattern altitude, and the engine stopped pretty much instantly. It turns out I'd pulled the mixture out instead of the throttle, and that's all it took to kill it, and I had no clue as to what'd happened. Fortunately Bill Clapp was sitting next to me and leaned over and stuff the mixture in and restarted it while I was still processing that the prop was dead in front of my face! All of this took about three seconds, start to finish. With high compression and small diameter props, if anything happens to the ignition or fuel, the prop's going to stop pretty quick, in my experience. I'm glad to hear that Joe's problem might not be in the bottom end... Mark Langford, Harvest, AL see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
KR> post mortum
Mark: I did wat you did on an older 182 that had the mixture knob right above the cowl flaps and I got it by mistake but the engine did not stop completely but it sure got my my attention and an adrenelin going. The wngine did not stop andimmediately recovered when i quickly reversed my actions. I 182 has enough prop that it would windmill and I never let it go that far. Many have said that the KR2 engines do not wind mill, so I guess that explanation is possible. Don L:ively Mark Langford wrote: > Kenny W wrote: > > > Ignition issues will not lock up the eng > > in flight unless the timing gets so far outa wack that a cyl fires while > > its > > way advanced. > > I'm sure you're not saying that something like a shorted condenser wire or > high voltage coil wire that's come loose wouldn't stop that engine > instantly, but it's sort of worded that way. I once pulled my "throttle" > out on crosswind since I was almost to pattern altitude, and the engine > stopped pretty much instantly. It turns out I'd pulled the mixture out > instead of the throttle, and that's all it took to kill it, and I had no > clue as to what'd happened. Fortunately Bill Clapp was sitting next to me > and leaned over and stuff the mixture in and restarted it while I was still > processing that the prop was dead in front of my face! All of this took > about three seconds, start to finish. With high compression and small > diameter props, if anything happens to the ignition or fuel, the prop's > going to stop pretty quick, in my experience. > > I'm glad to hear that Joe's problem might not be in the bottom end... > > Mark Langford, Harvest, AL > see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com > email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> post mortum
Last September when I was departing the KR Gathering at MVN, I was at about 1200' on climb out from the airport when I experienced a sudden engine stoppage. Boy it really gets quiet in a KR awful fast when that engine quits. Like Joe, I immediately lowered the nose and turned back towards the airport and set up a glide for landing. The next thing I did was to switch to my secondary ignition. I hit the start button and she fired right back up and I started circling and climbing. The next thing I did was really dumb and that was to continue on to Pontiac, Illinois which was 150 miles away. Since this was my halfway point home, I decided to land, fuel and check things out. I found that the primary high voltage wire had broken at the coil where the terminal was crimped on the wire. This was also a factory crimped wire, not one that I had done. I stripped the end of the wire, stuck it under the terminal nut on the coil and flew that coil the rest of the way home. My bets are that Joe experienced an ignition failure. I just hope it is an easy fix so he can make the KR/OSHKOSH Mini Gathering at my hangar the weekend of the 22nd. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI Web site: www.flykr2s.com Mailto:flyk...@wi.rr.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Mark Langford Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 10:14 AM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> post mortum Kenny W wrote: > Ignition issues will not lock up the eng > in flight unless the timing gets so far outa wack that a cyl fires while > its > way advanced. I'm sure you're not saying that something like a shorted condenser wire or high voltage coil wire that's come loose wouldn't stop that engine instantly, but it's sort of worded that way. I once pulled my "throttle" out on crosswind since I was almost to pattern altitude, and the engine stopped pretty much instantly. It turns out I'd pulled the mixture out instead of the throttle, and that's all it took to kill it, and I had no clue as to what'd happened. Fortunately Bill Clapp was sitting next to me and leaned over and stuff the mixture in and restarted it while I was still processing that the prop was dead in front of my face! All of this took about three seconds, start to finish. With high compression and small diameter props, if anything happens to the ignition or fuel, the prop's going to stop pretty quick, in my experience. I'm glad to hear that Joe's problem might not be in the bottom end... Mark Langford, Harvest, AL see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> post mortum
What I meant was that while traveling forward you are already getting some rotational assist from mother nature, for a prop not to windmill even the slightest seems unusual to me. You may be right though, the Vair may have high enough compression to lock it that rapidly. My experience with cars, tks, & heavy equipment is that when engines lockup under power it's bad news---the worst. Lets hope its fuel or ign. Kenny W - Original Message - From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: KR> post mortum > Kenny W wrote: > >> Ignition issues will not lock up the eng >> in flight unless the timing gets so far outa wack that a cyl fires while >> its >> way advanced. > > I'm sure you're not saying that something like a shorted condenser wire or > high voltage coil wire that's come loose wouldn't stop that engine > instantly, but it's sort of worded that way. I once pulled my "throttle" > out on crosswind since I was almost to pattern altitude, and the engine > stopped pretty much instantly. It turns out I'd pulled the mixture out > instead of the throttle, and that's all it took to kill it, and I had no > clue as to what'd happened. Fortunately Bill Clapp was sitting next to me > and leaned over and stuff the mixture in and restarted it while I was > still > processing that the prop was dead in front of my face! All of this took > about three seconds, start to finish. With high compression and small > diameter props, if anything happens to the ignition or fuel, the prop's > going to stop pretty quick, in my experience. > > I'm glad to hear that Joe's problem might not be in the bottom end... > > Mark Langford, Harvest, AL > see homebuilt airplane at http://www.N56ML.com > email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 > >
KR> post mortum
Lets go though a couple checks... 1) DOES THE PROP GO THROUGH 360 DEGREES OF ROTATION? If it does then maybe you didnt have sudden stoppage but perhaps a failure in the ignition circuit - did you try #2 coil ? You could have trash on your #1 points... 2) If the prop does go through all 360 degrees - you can remove one bearing cap at a time and check bearing wear on the rods - just for kicks. 3) If the prop does not turn all the way though 360 but most of the way then I suspect a valve. 4) In the ignition circuit check your rotor that it is still good - Ive seen some bad one on cars before... 5) Remember the three things required for ignition - air-fuel-spark - perform elimination tests from simple to more complex - done tear the engine apart because of a bad coil wire (for example) 6) Fuel filter/lines for trash? 7-10) You know enough to do some general checks so why am I here? Hope you figure it outCall me if need be 229-506-7741. Bill and 41768
KR> post mortum
Hey Joe, Glad you are OK. Most of the possible problems have been covered already. Have you drained the oil and checked for metal. Stick a magnet in the sump and "fish" for metal (Make sure your magnet is secured to your "fishing rod" or else you will leave the magnet in the sump, been there, done that :-) Here are some problems I have seen with race engines which are hard to detect. 1. broken tooth/teeth on cam gears (normally very noisy) 2. broken "key" where cam gears mounts to sharft. (sudden stop) 3. broken camshaft (but it did still keept running, but what a noise and I still got second place :-) 4. broken drive to distributer, this is commonly the roll pin that holds the gear on the shaft, it shears and then catches 180 degrees around. Making it all look normal. (sudden stop) Check you valve timimg on all cylinders and also electrical timing to ensure none of the above have occurred. Hope this helps Sincerest regards Barry Kruyssen Cairns, Australia k...@bigpond.com http://www.users.bigpond.com/kr2/kr2.htm
KR> post mortum
Maybe vapor lock or other lack of fuel type failure? Drain the gascolator and see what is in there; water, fuel, dirt, etc. A slow building loss of fuel situation would cause it to get lean and hot before stopping. Don't know what kind of carb you have, but I suspect that a big air bubble in the fuel line on something like an Ellison without a float bowl would stop it dead right now wheras a float bowl type carb would cause the engine to more slow and sputter a second or two before stopping. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Joseph H. Horton Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:07 AM To: corvaircr...@mylist.net; kr...@mylist.net Subject: KR> post mortum Guys, I did not get back to check the engine until this morning. I had not touched anything before tearing into it. The prop was still in the same position as when it stopped. I did move it a couple degrees back and forth to verify if the crank was still connected through and it was. I could also feel that it was going into compression on what ever firing order it had stopped at. First thing I did was remove the top cover. Suspecting bearing or connecting rod familiar. When I opened the top I was almost kind of disappointed. There is nothing broke bent or other wise in nothing but the pristine condition that it was in when it was originally closed up. There is no visible sign of metal in the case or the oil reservoir. I grabbed onto each connecting rod and tried to shake or move them. The only motion was the side to side in parallel with the crank. Next I moved the prop to see if everything moved together and it did. I could see most of the cam and lifters and they looked OK from above. I slowly swung the prop through a half revolution and everything continued just the way it should. Nothing at all to make a sudden stop. The next thought was the distributor. I pulled all the wires and took the cap off. The rotor was at a position that was pointing towards the opposite side of the motor ( I think at #5 but not sure right now) I moved the prop back and forth again just a couple degrees and the rotor moved instantly in both directions. The next thing I will do is pull the plugs and try to see in the cylinders for anything. But I don't have much hope at this point of seeing anything in the heads for a couple of reasons. I am looking for something that caused an immediate stopping at full power. If detonation was a factor I would think I would have found metal already somewhere. If swallowing a valve or more I would have expected a loss of power first. I guess looking for some good news the replaced EIS instrument seems to be working flawlessly just like I observed in Mark Langfords panel. And I found where a small oil leak was coming from that had been pestering me the past few weeks. Right now Just looking at the engine I would defy anyone that didn't know it had quit from looking in there and saying looks great Let's start it up and go fly. Thinking more about detonation - Would there actually be any debris left over or would it burn up and exit the exhaust? Could it be so quick that there would not be any signal of a problem? Right now I'm sitting at work and just shoot at this blindly from what very little I think I know. Please any and all comments. The reason that detonation has come into my head is that I can not honestly say that I remember making sure that I was full rich at the start of the take off roll. Thanks, Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA. joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
