KR> Vortex Generators
Hi Netters, This is my first post however I have been monitoring it for some time. I have been able to get all my queries off the archive search. I am refurbishing my KR2 at Caboolture, Australia. Most folk that frequent KRNet would have already visited my web site. I have a query regarding Vortex Generators. My KR2 (built by others) was fitted with heaps of VGs under the horizontal stab, on the fuselage prior to the rudder, on the landing gear and in front of the canopy. A previous archive search suggested that it lowers stall speed and if placed correctly has no speed effect. There are none placed on the main wing (original aerofoil). I don't understand why the previous owner wanted to lower the stall speed of the horizontal stab, but not the main aerofoil...and why the association with the rudder and canopy? Were they just VG crazy? Any thoughts? Also...many thanks to Barry Kruyssen who pre-inspected my aircraft prior to purchase Cheers Matt Hurley m...@propilots.net http://members.dodo.net.au/~hurley3/kr2.htm _ ProPilots Network Email - http://webmail.propilots.net/
KR> Vortex Generators
At 08:45 AM 7/22/2006, you wrote: >My KR2 (built by others) was fitted with heaps of VGs under the >horizontal stab, on the fuselage prior to the rudder, on the landing >gear and in front of the canopy. A previous archive search suggested >that it lowers stall speed and if placed correctly has no speed >effect. There are none placed on the main wing (original aerofoil). >I don't understand why the previous owner wanted to lower the stall >speed of the horizontal stab, but not the main aerofoil...and why >the association with the rudder and canopy? Were they just VG crazy? >Any thoughts? The vortex generators upstream of the tail surfaces will/can improve control authority at low speed by keeping the airflow attached to the elevator or rudder when they are deflected. As for the gear, canopy, and other non wing-type surface, the only reason to put them there that I can think of is that the previous owner did not know what he was doing. Tripping the flow from laminar or turbulent to separated in a controlled manner (which is what a vortex generator does) can sometimes reduce drag, but only if it is done correctly. A vortex generator is not the proper way to do this. I suggest that those can be removed and you will not notice any difference. Don Reid - donreid "at" peoplepc.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program: http://aerofoilengineering.com KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org
KR> Vortex Generators
I'm with Don. I'm thinking the previous owners were a little VG crazy. Given that the person who placed these VG's more than likely had no actual method applied to the placement, they are likely to be ineffective on any case. 0.02c Cheers. Pete. ---Original Message--- From: Donald Reid List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: 07/23/06 02:22:52 To: m...@propilots.net; KRnet Subject: Re: KR> Vortex Generators At 08:45 AM 7/22/2006, you wrote: >My KR2 (built by others) was fitted with heaps of VGs under the >horizontal stab, on the fuselage prior to the rudder, on the landing >gear and in front of the canopy. A previous archive search suggested >that it lowers stall speed and if placed correctly has no speed >effect. There are none placed on the main wing (original aerofoil). >I don't understand why the previous owner wanted to lower the stall >speed of the horizontal stab, but not the main aerofoil...and why >the association with the rudder and canopy? Were they just VG crazy? >Any thoughts? The vortex generators upstream of the tail surfaces will/can improve control authority at low speed by keeping the airflow attached to the elevator or rudder when they are deflected. As for the gear, canopy, and other non wing-type surface, the only reason to put them there that I can think of is that the previous owner did not know what he was doing. Tripping the flow from laminar or turbulent to separated in a controlled manner (which is what a vortex generator does) can sometimes reduce drag, but only if it is done correctly. A vortex generator is not the proper way to do this. I suggest that those can be removed and you will not notice any difference. Don Reid - donreid "at" peoplepc.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program: http://aerofoilengineering.com KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Vortex Generators
VGs are used to avoid separation and on the Lear Jet on the lower surface on the horizontal for this same purpose, they are also used on the upper surface of the wing to attuate the shock wave. I can see where they could near the canopy if the flow is separated, rhis could be determined with tuffs. Jim On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 07:00:29 +1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time) "StRaNgEdAyS" writes: > I'm with Don. > I'm thinking the previous owners were a little VG crazy. Given that > the > person who placed these VG's more than likely had no actual method > applied > to the placement, they are likely to be ineffective on any case. > 0.02c > Cheers. > Pete. > > ---Original Message--- > > From: Donald Reid > Date: 07/23/06 02:22:52 > To: m...@propilots.net; KRnet > Subject: Re: KR> Vortex Generators > > At 08:45 AM 7/22/2006, you wrote: > >My KR2 (built by others) was fitted with heaps of VGs under the > >horizontal stab, on the fuselage prior to the rudder, on the > landing > >gear and in front of the canopy. A previous archive search > suggested > >that it lowers stall speed and if placed correctly has no speed > >effect. There are none placed on the main wing (original > aerofoil). > >I don't understand why the previous owner wanted to lower the > stall > >speed of the horizontal stab, but not the main aerofoil...and why > >the association with the rudder and canopy? Were they just VG > crazy? > >Any thoughts? > > The vortex generators upstream of the tail surfaces will/can > improve > control authority at low speed by keeping the airflow attached to > the > elevator or rudder when they are deflected. As for the gear, > canopy, > and other non wing-type surface, the only reason to put them there > that I can think of is that the previous owner did not know what he > was doing. > > Tripping the flow from laminar or turbulent to separated in a > controlled manner (which is what a vortex generator does) can > sometimes reduce drag, but only if it is done correctly. A vortex > generator is not the proper way to do this. I suggest that those > can > be removed and you will not notice any difference. > > > > Don Reid - donreid "at" peoplepc.com > Bumpass, Va > > Visit my web sites at: > > AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program: > http://aerofoilengineering.com > > KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm > EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org > Ultralights: http://usua250.org > VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > >
KR>Vortex Generators
Rick, Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me. We have them on the E-3, which is a modified Boeing 707. I don't see how they would help with bugs or rain, as they are on the top of the wing, 3/4 of the way back from the leading edge, and outboard of the elevators. I'm not sure what they do (besides generate a vortex), and I just figured they are a "big plane" thing, and I shouldn't mess with them on a KR. But obviously they do something, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Thanks, Mark Youkey myou...@cox.net Oklahoma City - Original Message - From: "Rick Wilson" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: RE: KR>rain and the kr > Alex, Vortex generators are generally not that > effective except when used on canard airplanes. Rick > Wilson. > --- "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" > wrote: > > They are called Vortex generator, they are the > > rain/bugs contamination fix. > > I had asked before KR-netters opinion about to use > > them on KR, but it seems > > no body know about. Generally the Quickie and > > Dragonfly owners who have installed them > > reporting not only fixing bugs/rain contamination > > fixing but as well lowering the stall speed. > > > > BR, > > Alex Birca, > > Moldova > > > > -Original Message- > > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net > > [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Ross > > Youngblood > > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:51 PM > > To: KRnet > > Subject: Re: KR>rain and the kr > > > > > > Good thing you don't live in Oregon. > > > > I've seen some paint damage on spam cans out here > > due to flying in severe rain. I haven't flown my KR > > out here, but haven't heard from local EAA ers not > > to fly in the rain generally. > > > > Their was a canard aircraft which had some rain > > issues > > and I think I heard some similar comments from a > > Long-EZ > > pilot who had some canard fix. I'm open to hearing > > from netters on this, but haven't been "warned" off > > of flying when the wing gets wet. > > > > I think this is one of those "laminar flow" type > > concerns > > and at the moment, I don't even recall if the KR > > airflow > > RAF-46 (I think) was a laminar flow airfoil. It's > > older > > so I would bet it is not laminar flow... but I'm a > > hose > > head, and often wrong. > > > > -- Ross > > > > -> each time it drizzles i don't fly i cant find any > > information on the > > -> effects > > > of lite rain other then higher stick pressers with > > the Kr. it seams that > > > most wood propped airplanes don't fly anyway do to > > damage with or > > > without > > > urethane edge is what i understand. i just like > > to know if IM caught in a shower > > > will it do damage to the aircraft i always wipe it > > down if it gets wet or > > > washing i also avoid the hinge points (controls) > > mac. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > n1055a flying > > > flymaca711...@aol.com > > > ___ > > > see KRnet list details at > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > -- > > ___ > > Check out the latest SMS services @ > > http://www.operamail.com, which allows you to send > > SMS through your mailbox. > > > > Powered by Outblaze > > > > ___ > > see KRnet list details at > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > ___ > > see KRnet list details at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > = > Rick Wilson, Haleyville, Alabama KR2-0200A -99% rwdw2...@yahoo.com > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>Vortex Generators
Long EZ owners started using them on the canard because it is a laminar flow wing that looses lift when it gets contaminated with anything. Dirt, rain, bugs, anything. A friend and EZ owner was barely able to keep his nose up long enough to get it on the ground once, so he installed them and they work The Vortex Generators, turn a laminar flow wing into a turbulent flow wing, such as is the RAF-48, commonly used on the KR. If you are using a turbulent flow wing, I don't believe that there would be any reason for using these. I think that the subject came up because the new wing is a type of Laminar Flow wing. N64KR Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC da...@kr-builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org
KR>Vortex Generators
>Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me. Vortex generators prevent separation of the airflow from the wing surface by creating turbulent flow. It will help in reducing the effective stall speed for most aircraft because they are placed in the area in front of ailerons and flaps to guarantee that the airflow will not separate prior to hitting those surfaces. The stall becomes more recoverable. With the KR2's long aileron and a wing designed to stall at the tips first, they only create more drag without impacting stall speeds. {You will recognize the loss of lift on a KR2 long before you will be thrown into a spin.} Anything that creates turbulent flow creates drag (bad, bad, bad when you want to go fast with a small engine). Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 lar...@socal.rr.com
KR>Vortex Generators
Larry & Dan, Thanks! Now I know, and it all makes sense to me now. I suppose that the only acceptable application on a fast KR would be a sort of deployable vortex generators that deploy when you drop the flaps, and retract in a "clean" configuration. That sounds like a lot of workbut it would sure be cool. Mark Youkey myou...@cox.net Oklahoma City - Original Message - From: "larry severson" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:08 PM Subject: Re: KR>Vortex Generators > > >Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me. > > Vortex generators prevent separation of the airflow from the wing surface > by creating turbulent flow. It will help in reducing the effective stall > speed for most aircraft because they are placed in the area in front of > ailerons and flaps to guarantee that the airflow will not separate prior to > hitting those surfaces. The stall becomes more recoverable. With the KR2's > long aileron and a wing designed to stall at the tips first, they only > create more drag without impacting stall speeds. {You will recognize the > loss of lift on a KR2 long before you will be thrown into a spin.} Anything > that creates turbulent flow creates drag (bad, bad, bad when you want to go > fast with a small engine). > > > Larry Severson > Fountain Valley, CA 92708 > (714) 968-9852 > lar...@socal.rr.com > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>Vortex Generators
Mark, Actually I should have said that vortex generators are effective on swept wings, such as the vari-eze and longeze, velocity,etc. The airflow seperates from the top of the wing more on swept wings than on straight ones. Vortex generators are like small gates or dams that make the airflow stick closer to the surface for a longer portion of the wing surface. It makes the wing fly better at slower airspeeds. This is about the best I can do in general terms. You can read more about the subject on some of the canard aircraft sites. Rick Wilson. ps. That was my point, they don't help that much with bugs or rain. --- Mark Youkey wrote: > Rick, > > Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me. > We have them on the > E-3, which is a modified Boeing 707. I don't see > how they would help with > bugs or rain, as they are on the top of the wing, > 3/4 of the way back from > the leading edge, and outboard of the elevators. > > I'm not sure what they do (besides generate a > vortex), and I just figured > they are a "big plane" thing, and I shouldn't mess > with them on a KR. But > obviously they do something, otherwise they wouldn't > be there. > > Thanks, > Mark Youkey > myou...@cox.net > Oklahoma City > > - Original Message - > From: "Rick Wilson" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:13 PM > Subject: RE: KR>rain and the kr > > > > Alex, Vortex generators are generally not that > > effective except when used on canard airplanes. > Rick > > Wilson. > > --- "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" > > wrote: > > > They are called Vortex generator, they are the > > > rain/bugs contamination fix. > > > I had asked before KR-netters opinion about to > use > > > them on KR, but it seems > > > no body know about. Generally the Quickie and > > > Dragonfly owners who have installed them > > > reporting not only fixing bugs/rain > contamination > > > fixing but as well lowering the stall speed. > > > > > > BR, > > > Alex Birca, > > > Moldova > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net > > > [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of > Ross > > > Youngblood > > > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:51 PM > > > To: KRnet > > > Subject: Re: KR>rain and the kr > > > > > > > > > Good thing you don't live in Oregon. > > > > > > I've seen some paint damage on spam cans out > here > > > due to flying in severe rain. I haven't flown > my KR > > > out here, but haven't heard from local EAA ers > not > > > to fly in the rain generally. > > > > > > Their was a canard aircraft which had some rain > > > issues > > > and I think I heard some similar comments from a > > > Long-EZ > > > pilot who had some canard fix. I'm open to > hearing > > > from netters on this, but haven't been "warned" > off > > > of flying when the wing gets wet. > > > > > > I think this is one of those "laminar flow" type > > > concerns > > > and at the moment, I don't even recall if the KR > > > airflow > > > RAF-46 (I think) was a laminar flow airfoil. > It's > > > older > > > so I would bet it is not laminar flow... but I'm > a > > > hose > > > head, and often wrong. > > > > > > -- Ross > > > > > > -> each time it drizzles i don't fly i cant find > any > > > information on the > > > -> effects > > > > of lite rain other then higher stick pressers > with > > > the Kr. it seams that > > > > most wood propped airplanes don't fly anyway > do to > > > damage with or > > > > without > > > > urethane edge is what i understand. i just > like > > > to know if IM caught in a shower > > > > will it do damage to the aircraft i always > wipe it > > > down if it gets wet or > > > > washing i also avoid the hinge points > (controls) > > > mac. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > n1055a flying > > > > flymaca711...@aol.com > > > > > ___ > > > > see KRnet list details at > > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > -- > > > > ___ > > > Check out the latest SMS services @ > > > http://www.operamail.com, which allows you to > send > > > SMS through your mailbox. > > > > > > Powered by Outblaze > > > > > > ___ > > > see KRnet list details at > > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > ___ > > > see KRnet list details at > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > = > > Rick Wilson, Haleyville, Alabama KR2-0200A -99% > rwdw2...@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > __ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > > ___ > > see KRnet list details at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html = Rick Wilson, H
KR>Vortex Generators
Hi All There seems to be a little confusion of the theory and practical use of vortex generators. Here is my 2 cents worth. A Vortex generator is a group of small tabs on the top or bottom of the wing (also used on the vertical stab on some aircraft). They are small (short) enough to be only in the laminar flow of the wing. The tab is set at an angle to the airflow to introduce a rotation (or energy) to the airflow. This has the effect of keeping the airflow attached to the wing at a greater angle of attack. they do not reduce cruise speed at all. On laminar flow airfoils that are greatly affected by bugs on the leading edge, a vortex generator will help keep the airflow attached to the wing even with the bug or rain disturbing the flow. Many aircraft are using vortex generators, and we have them on the Cessna 414A that I fly. The vortex generators reduce the stall speed and Vmc (single engine control speed) with the resulting lower field length requirements. According to the specs, if more than 3 are mssing, we have to operate the aircraft as if it was not equiped. Another example is the New Piper Meridan. Piper added approx 72 vortex gens on the wings and horiontal stab and was able to increase the useful load by 240 lbs and keep the same stall speed. Hope this didn't add to the confusion. Gord Sorensen twotterdri...@hotmail.com _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/features&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
KR>Vortex Generators
I thought that was what I said in Alabama "hillbilly english," Rick Wilson. > Hi All > > There seems to be a little confusion of the theory > and practical use of > vortex generators. Here is my 2 cents worth. > > A Vortex generator is a group of small tabs on the > top or bottom of the > wing (also used on the vertical stab on some > aircraft). They are small > (short) enough to be only in the laminar flow of the > wing. The tab is set > at an angle to the airflow to introduce a rotation > (or energy) to the > airflow. This has the effect of keeping the airflow > attached to the wing at > a greater angle of attack. they do not reduce > cruise speed at all. > > On laminar flow airfoils that are greatly affected > by bugs on the leading > edge, a vortex generator will help keep the airflow > attached to the wing > even with the bug or rain disturbing the flow. > > Many aircraft are using vortex generators, and we > have them on the Cessna > 414A that I fly. The vortex generators reduce the > stall speed and Vmc > (single engine control speed) with the resulting > lower field length > requirements. According to the specs, if more than > 3 are mssing, we have to > operate the aircraft as if it was not equiped. > > Another example is the New Piper Meridan. Piper > added approx 72 vortex > gens on the wings and horiontal stab and was able > to increase the useful > load by 240 lbs and keep the same stall speed. > > Hope this didn't add to the confusion. > > Gord Sorensen > twotterdri...@hotmail.com > > _ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months > FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/features&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html = Rick Wilson, Haleyville, Alabama KR2-0200A -99% rwdw2...@yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
KR>Vortex Generators
Mark, Try for example this link:http: //home1.gte.net/pjbemail/VortexGen.html If you want more type "vortex generator" in google and you will find a lot of info. Alex Birca, Moldova -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Mark Youkey Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:27 AM To: KRnet Subject: KR>Vortex Generators Rick, Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me. We have them on the E-3, which is a modified Boeing 707. I don't see how they would help with bugs or rain, as they are on the top of the wing, 3/4 of the way back from the leading edge, and outboard of the elevators. I'm not sure what they do (besides generate a vortex), and I just figured they are a "big plane" thing, and I shouldn't mess with them on a KR. But obviously they do something, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Thanks, Mark Youkey myou...@cox.net Oklahoma City - Original Message - From: "Rick Wilson" To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: RE: KR>rain and the kr > Alex, Vortex generators are generally not that > effective except when used on canard airplanes. Rick > Wilson. > --- "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" > wrote: > > They are called Vortex generator, they are the > > rain/bugs contamination fix. > > I had asked before KR-netters opinion about to use > > them on KR, but it seems > > no body know about. Generally the Quickie and > > Dragonfly owners who have installed them > > reporting not only fixing bugs/rain contamination > > fixing but as well lowering the stall speed. > > > > BR, > > Alex Birca, > > Moldova > > > > -Original Message- > > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On > > Behalf Of Ross Youngblood > > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:51 PM > > To: KRnet > > Subject: Re: KR>rain and the kr > > > > > > Good thing you don't live in Oregon. > > > > I've seen some paint damage on spam cans out here > > due to flying in severe rain. I haven't flown my KR > > out here, but haven't heard from local EAA ers not > > to fly in the rain generally. > > > > Their was a canard aircraft which had some rain > > issues > > and I think I heard some similar comments from a > > Long-EZ > > pilot who had some canard fix. I'm open to hearing > > from netters on this, but haven't been "warned" off > > of flying when the wing gets wet. > > > > I think this is one of those "laminar flow" type > > concerns > > and at the moment, I don't even recall if the KR > > airflow > > RAF-46 (I think) was a laminar flow airfoil. It's > > older > > so I would bet it is not laminar flow... but I'm a > > hose > > head, and often wrong. > > > > -- Ross > > > > -> each time it drizzles i don't fly i cant find any > > information on the > > -> effects > > > of lite rain other then higher stick pressers with > > the Kr. it seams that > > > most wood propped airplanes don't fly anyway do to > > damage with or > > > without > > > urethane edge is what i understand. i just like > > to know if IM caught in a shower > > > will it do damage to the aircraft i always wipe it > > down if it gets wet or > > > washing i also avoid the hinge points (controls) > > mac. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > n1055a flying > > > flymaca711...@aol.com > > > ___ > > > see KRnet list details at > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > -- > > ___ > > Check out the latest SMS services @ > > http://www.operamail.com, which allows you to send > > SMS through your mailbox. > > > > Powered by Outblaze > > > > ___ > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > ___ > > see KRnet list details at > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > = > Rick Wilson, Haleyville, Alabama KR2-0200A -99% rwdw2...@yahoo.com > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>Vortex Generators
Thanks Larry, good enough explanation do not use vortex on KR and similar. Alex Birca -Original Message- From: krnet-bounces+alexander.birca=ericsson@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces+alexander.birca=ericsson@mylist.net] On Behalf Of larry severson Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:08 AM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>Vortex Generators >Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me. Vortex generators prevent separation of the airflow from the wing surface by creating turbulent flow. It will help in reducing the effective stall speed for most aircraft because they are placed in the area in front of ailerons and flaps to guarantee that the airflow will not separate prior to hitting those surfaces. The stall becomes more recoverable. With the KR2's long aileron and a wing designed to stall at the tips first, they only create more drag without impacting stall speeds. {You will recognize the loss of lift on a KR2 long before you will be thrown into a spin.} Anything that creates turbulent flow creates drag (bad, bad, bad when you want to go fast with a small engine). Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 lar...@socal.rr.com ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR>Vortex Generators
Alex, Thanks! Pictures speak a thousand words. Mark Y. - Original Message - From: "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" To: "'KRnet'" Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:32 AM Subject: RE: KR>Vortex Generators > Mark, > Try for example this link:http: //home1.gte.net/pjbemail/VortexGen.html > If you want more type "vortex generator" in google and you will find > a lot of info. > > Alex Birca, > Moldova > > -Original Message- > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Mark Youkey > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:27 AM > To: KRnet > Subject: KR>Vortex Generators > > > Rick, > > Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me. We have them on the E-3, which is a modified Boeing 707. I don't see how they would help with bugs or rain, as they are on the top of the wing, 3/4 of the way back from the leading edge, and outboard of the elevators. > > I'm not sure what they do (besides generate a vortex), and I just figured they are a "big plane" thing, and I shouldn't mess with them on a KR. But obviously they do something, otherwise they wouldn't be there. > > Thanks, > Mark Youkey > myou...@cox.net > Oklahoma City > > - Original Message - > From: "Rick Wilson" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:13 PM > Subject: RE: KR>rain and the kr > > > > Alex, Vortex generators are generally not that > > effective except when used on canard airplanes. Rick > > Wilson. > > --- "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" > > wrote: > > > They are called Vortex generator, they are the > > > rain/bugs contamination fix. > > > I had asked before KR-netters opinion about to use > > > them on KR, but it seems > > > no body know about. Generally the Quickie and > > > Dragonfly owners who have installed them > > > reporting not only fixing bugs/rain contamination > > > fixing but as well lowering the stall speed. > > > > > > BR, > > > Alex Birca, > > > Moldova > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On > > > Behalf Of Ross Youngblood > > > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:51 PM > > > To: KRnet > > > Subject: Re: KR>rain and the kr > > > > > > > > > Good thing you don't live in Oregon. > > > > > > I've seen some paint damage on spam cans out here > > > due to flying in severe rain. I haven't flown my KR > > > out here, but haven't heard from local EAA ers not > > > to fly in the rain generally. > > > > > > Their was a canard aircraft which had some rain > > > issues > > > and I think I heard some similar comments from a > > > Long-EZ > > > pilot who had some canard fix. I'm open to hearing > > > from netters on this, but haven't been "warned" off > > > of flying when the wing gets wet. > > > > > > I think this is one of those "laminar flow" type > > > concerns > > > and at the moment, I don't even recall if the KR > > > airflow > > > RAF-46 (I think) was a laminar flow airfoil. It's > > > older > > > so I would bet it is not laminar flow... but I'm a > > > hose > > > head, and often wrong. > > > > > > -- Ross > > > > > > -> each time it drizzles i don't fly i cant find any > > > information on the > > > -> effects > > > > of lite rain other then higher stick pressers with > > > the Kr. it seams that > > > > most wood propped airplanes don't fly anyway do to > > > damage with or > > > > without > > > > urethane edge is what i understand. i just like > > > to know if IM caught in a shower > > > > will it do damage to the aircraft i always wipe it > > > down if it gets wet or > > > > washing i also avoid the hinge points (controls) > > > mac. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > n1055a flying > > > > flymaca711...@aol.com > > > > ___ > > > > see KRnet list details at > > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > -- > > > ___ > > > Check out the latest SMS services @ > > > http://www.operamail.com, which allows you to send > > > SMS through your mailbox. > > > > > > Powered by Outblaze > > > > > > ___ > > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > ___ > > > see KRnet list details at > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > = > > Rick Wilson, Haleyville, Alabama KR2-0200A -99% rwdw2...@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > __ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > > ___ > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > ___ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
KR> Vortex generators
> "I don't remember ever seeing or hearing about a KR with vortex generators installed." Ken Cottle put them on his (Sam Bailey built) KR-1 and says they do a good job. I can't remember if he said he lost anything on the top end but I've heard you can expect a small amount of drag loss. Mike KSEE 3.44% APR - Refinance Now $200,000 Mortgage for $898/Month! No Hidden Fees. Refi & Save w/DPR! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bd761dfa0c7a548b8m04vuc
KR> Vortex generators
Hey folks, I have one of the Sam Bailey KR-1's and it does not have vortex generators. Marc B. East Los Angeles From: "laser...@juno.com" To: kr...@mylist.net Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 3:13:33 PM Subject: KR> Vortex generators > "I don't remember ever seeing or hearing about a KR with vortex generators installed." Ken Cottle put them on his (Sam Bailey built) KR-1 and says they do a good job. I can't remember if he said he lost anything on the top end but I've heard you can expect a small amount of drag loss. Mike KSEE 3.44% APR - Refinance Now $200,000 Mortgage for $898/Month! No Hidden Fees. Refi & Save w/DPR! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bd761dfa0c7a548b8m04vuc ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Vortex generators
> "I have one of the Sam Bailey KR-1's and it does not have vortex generators." Sam Bailey built three. You've got one, another is in Sam's home town museum in Kansas, and Ken has the third. Ken put vortex generators on his and likes the benefit he gets at high angles of attack. Mike KSEE 2550% Penny Stock Gains? Our last pick exploded 2550% - Join our newsletter for free picks! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bd7d65eac14757340m04vuc
KR> vortex generators
would it be possible to get more air in the same area by putting vortex generaters arround the inlet openings there-by smothing out turbulent air ? >Mike Turner ++ Mike, I think the purpose of vortex generators is to "create" turblent air, hence the name. If anything, you might want some baffles that smooth out and direct the airflow. Vortex generators on the wing creates a turbulent flow that helps to keep the airflow "stuck" to the wing at higher angles of attach. Larry Flesner
KR> vortex generators
Same type of setup used in many of the newer type turbo induction systems for racing applications. They are used to help insure a more complete mixture of gas and air. Doug Rupert Mike, I think the purpose of vortex generators is to "create" turblent air, hence the name. If anything, you might want some baffles that smooth out and direct the airflow. Vortex generators on the wing creates a turbulent flow that helps to keep the airflow "stuck" to the wing at higher angles of attach. Larry Flesner
KR> vortex generators
Larry I remember some of the EZ pilots using the Vortex generators. I couldn't say for sure, but they seemed to place them between the Vertilons in front of the ailerons to insure that they still had control on approach and landing. I remember them saying that it helps speed up the air passing over the wing. I think that it's the speed that keeps the air next to the wing and ailerons. That's the only application I have seen up close. I only had the Vertilons on my EZ. I never installed any Vortex generators. Greg Martin > Vortex generators on the wing creates a turbulent flow that helps > to keep the airflow "stuck" to the wing at higher angles of attach. > > Larry Flesner > > > > ___ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Vortex generators
Vortex generators for aviation are used to prevent what is called as boundary layer separation, as Larry referred to. At high angles of attack the relative wind strikes the leading edge at a more severe angle causing it to deflect up and pass over the wing but with an increasing distance. The angle also causes a turbulence in the air flow that destroys lift, starting at the trailing edge and moving forward to the leading edge. This is in effect the wing gradually stalling, and is why you must lower the nose to begin flying again in stall recovery, to restore proper airflow over the wing. The small vortices as they are called caused by the angled deflectors attached to or near the leading edge disrupt the smooth flow of air causing a small vacuum to occur next to the skin of the wing. This has the effect of "sucking" the boundary layer down to stay in contact with the wing when the angle of attack would normally cause the air to deflect and go high over the wing, losing lift in the process. That is how they can lower the stall speed, effectively lowering the landing speeds and increasing control effectiveness at slower speeds. They are also small enough as to not significantly impact the cruise speeds of most aircraft that I have read about use them. Naturally there will be a point in speed where they will become significant, but for most aircraft in our realm minor if any effect. Turbulence created for intake manifolds is done to prevent separation, better atomization or mixing of the air/fuel mixture. This is especially important when the airflow is very fast or the engine is cold, when it is easy for the fuel to separate out of the mix and pool other places in the intake manifold. In early cars they had rough spots in the intake below the carb, in late models they have smooth throttle bodies, but rough intake castings to get that swirl for better mixing since in most cars the fuel is introduced at the intake valve by a fuel injector. If you make your own intake manifold for your aircraft engine, you may want to make sure you think about some of this. No heat at all, and no mixing action can lead to a big difference in fuel distribution across the cylinders. If you fly at any altitude higher than 1500MSL than you are going to get cooler air through the carb than on the ground plus a density change. Just some things to consider Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crain...@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html
KR> Vortex generators
I hope we can discuss subjects such as this at the Gathering. Is the implication that we should all have vortex generators as it may lower stall and landing speeds? Would that make flying just a little bit safer? Some of you guys out there have a tremendous amount of knowledge. No need for all of us builders to have to always reinvent the wheel. Looking forwad to next weekend. Ray --- Colin & Bev Rainey wrote: > Vortex generators for aviation are used to prevent > what is called as boundary layer separation, as > Larry referred to. At high angles of attack the > relative wind strikes the leading edge at a more > severe angle causing it to deflect up and pass over > the wing but with an increasing distance. The angle > also causes a turbulence in the air flow that > destroys lift, starting at the trailing edge and > moving forward to the leading edge. This is in > effect the wing gradually stalling, and is why you > must lower the nose to begin flying again in stall > recovery, to restore proper airflow over the wing. > The small vortices as they are called caused by the > angled deflectors attached to or near the leading > edge disrupt the smooth flow of air causing a small > vacuum to occur next to the skin of the wing. This > has the effect of "sucking" the boundary layer down > to stay in contact with the wing when the angle of > attack would normally cause the air to deflect and > go high over the wing, losing lift in the process. > That is how they can lower the stall speed, > effectively lowering the landing speeds and > increasing control effectiveness at slower speeds. > They are also small enough as to not significantly > impact the cruise speeds of most aircraft that I > have read about use them. Naturally there will be a > point in speed where they will become significant, > but for most aircraft in our realm minor if any > effect. > > Turbulence created for intake manifolds is done to > prevent separation, better atomization or mixing of > the air/fuel mixture. This is especially important > when the airflow is very fast or the engine is cold, > when it is easy for the fuel to separate out of the > mix and pool other places in the intake manifold. > In early cars they had rough spots in the intake > below the carb, in late models they have smooth > throttle bodies, but rough intake castings to get > that swirl for better mixing since in most cars the > fuel is introduced at the intake valve by a fuel > injector. If you make your own intake manifold for > your aircraft engine, you may want to make sure you > think about some of this. No heat at all, and no > mixing action can lead to a big difference in fuel > distribution across the cylinders. If you fly at > any altitude higher than 1500MSL than you are going > to get cooler air through the carb than on the > ground plus a density change. Just some things to > consider > > Colin & Bev Rainey > KR2(td) N96TA > Sanford, FL > crain...@cfl.rr.com > http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html > ___ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at > http://www.krnet.org/info.html > __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
KR> vortex generators
ok has anyone done it , they sound good sounds a lot safer to me with them ,i will even sacrifice some spped to get the stall down and quicker t/o philtPart_000_015C_01C5631A.0104D2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok has anyone done it , they sound good sounds a lot safer to me with them ,i will even sacrifice some spped to get the stall down and quicker t/o phil --=_NextPart_000_015C_01C5631A.0104D2C0-- -- next part -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 22/05/2005
KR> vortex generators
ok has anyone done it , they sound good sounds a lot safer to me with them ,i will even sacrifice some spped to get the stall down and quicker t/o >From my experiments (PA32) you don't need to sacrifice anything. VG's can help achieve different things, do enough reading and decide what your requirement is. I get mine from: http://www.mywebco.com/cci/ Good product and the lowest price. Take care Steve J
KR> Vortex generators
Netters Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead but has anyone have any KR2 experience with vortex generators to lower stall speed? drjay - Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
KR> Vortex Generators
Has any thought of, or actually added, micro vortex generators to the wing of a KR? Research on my end seems to indicate that there is no impact to high speed flight, but significant improvement in low speed handling and a reduced stall speed. Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks, Mark W. N952MW (res)
KR> Vortex Generators
I have them on my KR-2 and here's what I got Before the VG's we were getting @ 49.3 kts CAS early in the test flight program at a weight of @ 975 lbs. We re-tested with the VG's and were able to demonstrate a 44.7 kt stall at 1000 lbs. and 44.1 kt at 1130 lbs. So we got an 5 kt improvement or about 11%. I have my gross weight at 1150 lbs. No noticeable effect on the top end and the airelons are effective all through the flight range - the VG's were placed at 10% of the chord. I bought them from Landshorter.com. Rick Human N202RH Houston, Texas - Original Message - From: "Mark" To: "'KRnet'" Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:05 PM Subject: KR> Vortex Generators Has any thought of, or actually added, micro vortex generators to the wing of a KR? Research on my end seems to indicate that there is no impact to high speed flight, but significant improvement in low speed handling and a reduced stall speed. Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks, Mark W. N952MW (res) ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Vortex Generators
>I have them on my KR-2 and here's what I got >Before the VG's we were getting @ 49.3 kts CAS early in the test flight >program at a weight of @ 975 lbs. We re-tested with the VG's and were able >to demonstrate a 44.7 kt stall at 1000 lbs. and 44.1 kt at 1130 lbs. So we >got an 5 kt improvement or about 11%. >Rick Human +++ I'll add some food for thought to the subject. The VG's would add a safety margin in the air but do little for landing in a conventional geared KR. At some point in the building of my KR, I realized that even with my longer than standard main gear legs, I could not get the wing to a full stall angle in the three point attitude. I accidentally proved that during the landing on my first flight. I kept holding it off until the tailwheel touched first with the wing still flying. Not something you want to do on a regular basis. Can you say "bounce and bobble" !! All my landings now are tail low wheel landings. A tri-gear may benefit. You would have to see if you can get the wing to a 14+ degree angle before the tail touches. You should never need them during "normal" flight conditions. They might save your a*# in an emergency but if you're flying that close to the margin then "dumb luck" is your co-pilot. Larry Flesner
KR> Vortex Generators
The vg's on our Navajo are used for a gross weight increase. In other words, the normal PA31-350 has a max takeoff weight of 7000#. The vg's increase our t/o weight to 7368#. Our single engine roc is vastly improved over stock, as is single engine climb, vmc (minimum control seed single engine). Overall I can think of no reason not to install them except for being cash strapped. Tony Wright
KR> vortex generators
I'm still fairley new to all this, so I don't know if anyone has tried some on their wings but I see klobs running them on the horizental staiblizers even.Seems the low speed lift and handling are greatly improved.Thats just what I want a good dose of. Any expermenters? Thanks ,joseph. _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/