KR> Vortex generators

[laser...@juno.com]

> "I have one of the  Sam Bailey KR-1's  and it does not have vortex
generators."

Sam Bailey built three.  You've got one, another is in Sam's home town
museum in Kansas, and Ken has the third.  Ken put vortex generators on
his and likes the benefit he gets at high angles of attack.  

Mike
KSEE

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KR> Vortex generators

[Marc Baca]

Hey folks,

I have one of the  Sam Bailey KR-1's  and it does not have vortex generators.

Marc B.
East Los Angeles





From: "laser...@juno.com" <laser...@juno.com>
To: kr...@mylist.net
Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 3:13:33 PM
Subject: KR> Vortex generators

> "I don't remember ever seeing or hearing about a KR with vortex 
generators installed."

Ken Cottle put them on his (Sam Bailey built) KR-1 and says they do a
good job.  I can't remember if he said he lost anything on the top end
but I've heard you can expect a small amount of drag loss.

Mike
KSEE
  

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KR> Vortex generators

[laser...@juno.com]

> "I don't remember ever seeing or hearing about a KR with vortex 
generators installed."

Ken Cottle put them on his (Sam Bailey built) KR-1 and says they do a
good job.  I can't remember if he said he lost anything on the top end
but I've heard you can expect a small amount of drag loss.

Mike
KSEE


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KR> vortex generators

[joseph lamberson]

I'm still fairley new to all this, so I don't know if anyone has tried some on 
their wings but I see klobs running them on the horizental staiblizers 
even.Seems the low speed lift and handling are greatly improved.Thats just what 
I want a good dose of. Any expermenters? Thanks ,joseph.

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KR> Vortex Generators

[Tony Wright]

The vg's on our Navajo are used for a gross weight increase.  In other 
words, the normal PA31-350 has a max takeoff weight of 7000#.  The vg's 
increase our t/o weight to 7368#.  Our single engine roc is vastly improved 
over stock, as is single engine climb, vmc (minimum control seed single 
engine).  Overall I can think of no reason not to install them except for 
being cash strapped.

Tony Wright 

KR> Vortex Generators

[Larry Flesner]

>I have them on my KR-2 and here's what I got
>Before the VG's we were getting @ 49.3 kts CAS early in the test flight
>program at a weight of @ 975 lbs. We re-tested with the VG's and were able
>to demonstrate a 44.7 kt stall at 1000 lbs. and 44.1 kt at 1130 lbs. So we
>got an 5 kt improvement or about 11%.
>Rick Human
+++

I'll add some food for thought to the subject.  The VG's would add a
safety margin in the air but do little for landing in a conventional geared
KR.  At some point in the building of my KR, I realized that even with
my longer than standard main gear legs, I could not get the wing to a
full stall angle in the three point attitude.  I accidentally proved 
that during
the landing on my first flight.  I kept holding it off until the 
tailwheel touched
first with the wing still flying.  Not something you want to do on a regular
basis.  Can you say "bounce and bobble" !!  All my landings now are
tail low wheel landings.  A tri-gear may benefit.  You would have to see
if you can get the wing to a 14+ degree angle before the tail touches.

You should never need them during "normal" flight conditions.  They might
save your a*# in an emergency but if you're flying that close to the margin
then "dumb luck" is your co-pilot.

Larry Flesner

KR> Vortex Generators

[rahu...@peoplepc.com]

I have them on my KR-2 and here's what I got

Before the VG's we were getting @ 49.3 kts CAS early in the test flight 
program at a weight of @ 975 lbs. We re-tested with the VG's and were able 
to demonstrate a 44.7 kt stall at 1000 lbs. and 44.1 kt at 1130 lbs. So we 
got an 5 kt improvement or about 11%. I have my gross weight at 1150 lbs. No 
noticeable effect on the top end and the airelons are effective all through 
the flight range - the VG's were placed at 10% of the chord. I bought them 
from Landshorter.com.

Rick Human
N202RH
Houston, Texas

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark" <markweg...@charter.net>
To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:05 PM
Subject: KR> Vortex Generators



Has any thought of, or actually added, micro vortex generators to the wing
of a KR? Research on my end seems to indicate that there is no impact to
high speed flight, but significant improvement in low speed handling and a
reduced stall speed. Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark W.
N952MW (res)


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KR> Vortex Generators

[Mark]

Has any thought of, or actually added, micro vortex generators to the wing
of a KR? Research on my end seems to indicate that there is no impact to
high speed flight, but significant improvement in low speed handling and a
reduced stall speed. Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark W.
N952MW (res)

KR> Vortex generators

[dr jay]

Netters

  Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead but has anyone have any KR2 experience with 
vortex generators to lower stall speed?

  drjay


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KR> Vortex Generators

[Matt Hurley]

Hi Netters,

This is my first post however I have been monitoring it for some time. I have 
been able to get all my queries off the archive search. I am refurbishing my 
KR2 at Caboolture, Australia.
Most folk that frequent KRNet would have already visited my web site. I have a 
query regarding Vortex Generators. My KR2 (built by others) was fitted with 
heaps of VGs under the horizontal stab, on the fuselage prior to the rudder, on 
the landing gear and in front of the canopy. A previous archive search 
suggested that it lowers stall speed and if placed correctly has no speed 
effect.  There are none placed on the main wing (original aerofoil). 
I don't understand why the previous owner wanted to lower the stall speed of 
the horizontal stab, but not the main aerofoil...and why the association with 
the rudder and canopy?  Were they just VG crazy?
Any thoughts?

Also...many thanks to Barry Kruyssen who pre-inspected my aircraft prior to 
purchase

Cheers
Matt Hurley

m...@propilots.net
http://members.dodo.net.au/~hurley3/kr2.htm



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KR> Vortex Generators

[Donald Reid]

At 08:45 AM 7/22/2006, you wrote:
>My KR2 (built by others) was fitted with heaps of VGs under the 
>horizontal stab, on the fuselage prior to the rudder, on the landing 
>gear and in front of the canopy. A previous archive search suggested 
>that it lowers stall speed and if placed correctly has no speed 
>effect.  There are none placed on the main wing (original aerofoil).
>I don't understand why the previous owner wanted to lower the stall 
>speed of the horizontal stab, but not the main aerofoil...and why 
>the association with the rudder and canopy?  Were they just VG crazy?
>Any thoughts?

The vortex generators upstream of the tail surfaces will/can improve 
control authority at low speed by keeping the airflow attached to the 
elevator or rudder when they are deflected.  As for the gear, canopy, 
and other non wing-type surface, the only reason to put them there 
that I can think of is that the previous owner did not know what he 
was doing.

Tripping the flow from laminar or turbulent to separated in a 
controlled manner (which is what a vortex generator does) can 
sometimes reduce drag, but only if it is done correctly.  A vortex 
generator is not the proper way to do this.  I suggest that those can 
be removed and you will not notice any difference.



Don Reid  -  donreid "at" peoplepc.com
Bumpass, Va

Visit my web sites at:

AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program:
http://aerofoilengineering.com

KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm
EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org
Ultralights: http://usua250.org
VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org

KR> Vortex Generators

[StRaNgEdAyS]

I'm with Don.
I'm thinking the previous owners were a little VG crazy.  Given that the
person who placed these VG's more than likely had no actual method applied
to the placement, they are likely to be ineffective on any case.
0.02c
Cheers.
Pete.

---Original Message---

From: Donald Reid
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 07/23/06 02:22:52
To: m...@propilots.net; KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Vortex Generators

At 08:45 AM 7/22/2006, you wrote:
>My KR2 (built by others) was fitted with heaps of VGs under the
>horizontal stab, on the fuselage prior to the rudder, on the landing
>gear and in front of the canopy. A previous archive search suggested
>that it lowers stall speed and if placed correctly has no speed
>effect.  There are none placed on the main wing (original aerofoil).
>I don't understand why the previous owner wanted to lower the stall
>speed of the horizontal stab, but not the main aerofoil...and why
>the association with the rudder and canopy?  Were they just VG crazy?
>Any thoughts?

The vortex generators upstream of the tail surfaces will/can improve
control authority at low speed by keeping the airflow attached to the
elevator or rudder when they are deflected.  As for the gear, canopy,
and other non wing-type surface, the only reason to put them there
that I can think of is that the previous owner did not know what he
was doing.

Tripping the flow from laminar or turbulent to separated in a
controlled manner (which is what a vortex generator does) can
sometimes reduce drag, but only if it is done correctly.  A vortex
generator is not the proper way to do this.  I suggest that those can
be removed and you will not notice any difference.



Don Reid  -  donreid "at" peoplepc.com
Bumpass, Va

Visit my web sites at:

AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program:
http://aerofoilengineering.com

KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm
EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org
Ultralights: http://usua250.org
VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org




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KR> Vortex Generators

[James Ferris]

VGs are used to avoid separation and on the Lear Jet on the lower surface
on the horizontal for this same purpose, they are also used on the upper
surface of the wing to attuate the shock wave. I can see where they could
near the canopy if the flow is separated, rhis could be determined with
tuffs.
Jim  
On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 07:00:29 +1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time)
"StRaNgEdAyS" <stranged...@dodo.com.au> writes:
> I'm with Don.
> I'm thinking the previous owners were a little VG crazy.  Given that 
> the
> person who placed these VG's more than likely had no actual method 
> applied
> to the placement, they are likely to be ineffective on any case.
> 0.02c
> Cheers.
> Pete.
>  
> ---Original Message---
>  
> From: Donald Reid
> Date: 07/23/06 02:22:52
> To: m...@propilots.net; KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> Vortex Generators
>  
> At 08:45 AM 7/22/2006, you wrote:
> >My KR2 (built by others) was fitted with heaps of VGs under the
> >horizontal stab, on the fuselage prior to the rudder, on the 
> landing
> >gear and in front of the canopy. A previous archive search 
> suggested
> >that it lowers stall speed and if placed correctly has no speed
> >effect.  There are none placed on the main wing (original 
> aerofoil).
> >I don't understand why the previous owner wanted to lower the 
> stall
> >speed of the horizontal stab, but not the main aerofoil...and why
> >the association with the rudder and canopy?  Were they just VG 
> crazy?
> >Any thoughts?
>  
> The vortex generators upstream of the tail surfaces will/can 
> improve
> control authority at low speed by keeping the airflow attached to 
> the
> elevator or rudder when they are deflected.  As for the gear, 
> canopy,
> and other non wing-type surface, the only reason to put them there
> that I can think of is that the previous owner did not know what he
> was doing.
>  
> Tripping the flow from laminar or turbulent to separated in a
> controlled manner (which is what a vortex generator does) can
> sometimes reduce drag, but only if it is done correctly.  A vortex
> generator is not the proper way to do this.  I suggest that those 
> can
> be removed and you will not notice any difference.
>  
>  
>  
> Don Reid  -  donreid "at" peoplepc.com
> Bumpass, Va
>  
> Visit my web sites at:
>  
> AeroFoil, a 2-D Airfoil Design And Analysis Computer Program:
> http://aerofoilengineering.com
>  
> KR2XL construction: http://aerofoilengineering.com/KR/KR2XL.htm
> EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org
> Ultralights: http://usua250.org
> VA EAA Regional Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org
>  
>  
>  
>  
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at 
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>  
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 
> 

KR> vortex generators

[phil brookman]

ok has anyone done it , they sound good sounds a lot safer to me with them ,i 
will even sacrifice some spped to get the stall down and quicker t/o
philtPart_000_015C_01C5631A.0104D2C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable








ok has anyone done it , they sound good sounds a 
lot safer to me with them ,i will even sacrifice some spped to get the stall 
down and quicker t/o
phil

--=_NextPart_000_015C_01C5631A.0104D2C0--
-- next part --
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 22/05/2005

KR> vortex generators

[Stephen Jacobs]

ok has anyone done it , they sound good sounds a lot safer to me with
them ,i will even sacrifice some spped to get the stall down and quicker
t/o



>From my experiments (PA32) you don't need to sacrifice anything.
VG's can help achieve different things, do enough reading and decide
what your requirement is.

I get mine from:

http://www.mywebco.com/cci/

Good product and the lowest price.

Take care
Steve J

KR> vortex generators

[Doug Rupert]

Same type of setup used in many of the newer type turbo induction systems
for racing applications. They are used to help insure a more complete
mixture of gas and air.
Doug Rupert

Mike,

I think the purpose of vortex generators is to "create" turblent air,
hence the name.  If anything, you might want some baffles that
smooth out and direct the airflow.

Vortex generators on the wing creates a turbulent flow that helps
to keep the airflow "stuck" to the wing at higher angles of attach.

Larry Flesner

KR> vortex generators

[idrawtobu...@ncinternet.net]

Larry

I remember some of the EZ pilots using the Vortex generators.  I couldn't
say for sure, but they seemed to place them between the Vertilons in front
of the ailerons to insure that they still had control on approach and
landing.  I remember them saying that it helps speed up the air passing over
the wing.  I think that it's the speed that keeps the air next to the wing
and ailerons.  That's the only application I have seen up close.

I only had the Vertilons on my EZ.  I never installed any Vortex generators.

Greg Martin

> Vortex generators on the wing creates a turbulent flow that helps
> to keep the airflow "stuck" to the wing at higher angles of attach.
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
>
> ___
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KR> Vortex generators

[Colin & Bev Rainey]

Vortex generators for aviation are used to prevent what is called as boundary 
layer separation, as Larry referred to.  At high angles of attack the relative 
wind strikes the leading edge at a more severe angle causing it to deflect up 
and pass over the wing but with an increasing distance.  The angle also causes 
a turbulence in the air flow that destroys lift, starting at the trailing edge 
and moving forward to the leading edge.  This is in effect the wing gradually 
stalling, and is why you must lower the nose to begin flying again in stall 
recovery, to restore proper airflow over the wing.  The small vortices as they 
are called caused by the angled deflectors attached to or near the leading edge 
disrupt the smooth flow of air causing a small vacuum to occur next to the skin 
of the wing.  This has the effect of "sucking" the boundary layer down to stay 
in contact with the wing when the angle of attack would normally cause the air 
to deflect and go high over the wing, losing lift in the process.  That is how 
they can lower the stall speed, effectively lowering the landing speeds and 
increasing control effectiveness at slower speeds.  They are also small enough 
as to not significantly impact the cruise speeds of most aircraft that I have 
read about use them.  Naturally there will be a point in speed where they will 
become significant, but for most aircraft in our realm minor if any effect.

Turbulence created for intake manifolds is done to prevent separation, better 
atomization or mixing of the air/fuel mixture.  This is especially important 
when the airflow is very fast or the engine is cold, when it is easy for the 
fuel to separate out of the mix and pool other places in the intake manifold.  
In early cars they had rough spots in the intake below the carb, in late models 
they have smooth throttle bodies, but rough intake castings to get that swirl 
for better mixing since in most cars the fuel is introduced at the intake valve 
by a fuel injector.  If you make your own intake manifold for your aircraft 
engine, you may want to make sure you think about some of this.  No heat at 
all, and no mixing action can lead to a big difference in fuel distribution 
across the cylinders.  If you fly at any altitude higher than 1500MSL than you 
are going to get cooler air through the carb than on the ground plus a density 
change.  Just some things to consider

Colin & Bev Rainey
KR2(td) N96TA
Sanford, FL
crain...@cfl.rr.com
http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html

KR> Vortex generators

[Ray Fuenzalida]

I hope we can discuss subjects such as this at the
Gathering.  Is the implication that we should all have
vortex generators as it may lower stall and landing
speeds?  Would that make flying just a little bit
safer?  Some of you guys out there have a tremendous
amount of knowledge.  No need for all of us builders
to have to always reinvent the wheel.
Looking forwad to next weekend.
Ray

--- Colin & Bev Rainey  wrote:

> Vortex generators for aviation are used to prevent
> what is called as boundary layer separation, as
> Larry referred to.  At high angles of attack the
> relative wind strikes the leading edge at a more
> severe angle causing it to deflect up and pass over
> the wing but with an increasing distance.  The angle
> also causes a turbulence in the air flow that
> destroys lift, starting at the trailing edge and
> moving forward to the leading edge.  This is in
> effect the wing gradually stalling, and is why you
> must lower the nose to begin flying again in stall
> recovery, to restore proper airflow over the wing. 
> The small vortices as they are called caused by the
> angled deflectors attached to or near the leading
> edge disrupt the smooth flow of air causing a small
> vacuum to occur next to the skin of the wing.  This
> has the effect of "sucking" the boundary layer down
> to stay in contact with the wing when the angle of
> attack would normally cause the air to deflect and
> go high over the wing, losing lift in the process. 
> That is how they can lower the stall speed,
> effectively lowering the landing speeds and
> increasing control effectiveness at slower speeds. 
> They are also small enough as to not significantly
> impact the cruise speeds of most aircraft that I
> have read about use them.  Naturally there will be a
> point in speed where they will become significant,
> but for most aircraft in our realm minor if any
> effect.
> 
> Turbulence created for intake manifolds is done to
> prevent separation, better atomization or mixing of
> the air/fuel mixture.  This is especially important
> when the airflow is very fast or the engine is cold,
> when it is easy for the fuel to separate out of the
> mix and pool other places in the intake manifold. 
> In early cars they had rough spots in the intake
> below the carb, in late models they have smooth
> throttle bodies, but rough intake castings to get
> that swirl for better mixing since in most cars the
> fuel is introduced at the intake valve by a fuel
> injector.  If you make your own intake manifold for
> your aircraft engine, you may want to make sure you
> think about some of this.  No heat at all, and no
> mixing action can lead to a big difference in fuel
> distribution across the cylinders.  If you fly at
> any altitude higher than 1500MSL than you are going
> to get cooler air through the carb than on the
> ground plus a density change.  Just some things to
> consider
> 
> Colin & Bev Rainey
> KR2(td) N96TA
> Sanford, FL
> crain...@cfl.rr.com
> http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to
> krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at
> http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 





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KR> vortex generators

[larry flesner]

 would it be possible to get more air in the same area by putting vortex
generaters arround the inlet openings there-by smothing out turbulent air ?
>Mike Turner
++

Mike,

I think the purpose of vortex generators is to "create" turblent air,
hence the name.  If anything, you might want some baffles that
smooth out and direct the airflow.

Vortex generators on the wing creates a turbulent flow that helps
to keep the airflow "stuck" to the wing at higher angles of attach.

Larry Flesner

KR>Vortex Generators

[Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)]

Thanks Larry, good enough explanation do not use vortex on KR and similar.

Alex Birca

-Original Message-
From: krnet-bounces+alexander.birca=ericsson@mylist.net 
[mailto:krnet-bounces+alexander.birca=ericsson@mylist.net] On Behalf Of 
larry severson
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:08 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR>Vortex Generators



>Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me.

Vortex generators prevent separation of the airflow from the wing surface 
by creating turbulent flow. It will help in reducing the effective stall 
speed for most aircraft because they are placed in the area in front of 
ailerons and flaps to guarantee that the airflow will not separate prior to 
hitting those surfaces. The stall becomes more recoverable. With the KR2's 
long aileron and a wing designed to stall at the tips first, they only 
create more drag without impacting stall speeds. {You will recognize the 
loss of lift on a KR2 long before you will be thrown into a spin.} Anything 
that creates turbulent flow creates drag (bad, bad, bad when you want to go 
fast with a small engine).


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
lar...@socal.rr.com 


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KR>Vortex Generators

[Mark Youkey]

Alex,

Thanks!  Pictures speak a thousand words.

Mark Y.
- Original Message - 
From: "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" <alexander.bi...@ericsson.com>
To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: KR>Vortex Generators


> Mark,
> Try for example this link:http: //home1.gte.net/pjbemail/VortexGen.html
> If you want more type "vortex generator" in google and you will find
> a lot of info.
>
> Alex Birca,
> Moldova
>
> -Original Message-
> From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Mark Youkey
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:27 AM
> To: KRnet
> Subject: KR>Vortex Generators
>
>
> Rick,
>
> Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me.  We have them on the
E-3, which is a modified Boeing 707.  I don't see how they would help with
bugs or rain, as they are on the top of the wing, 3/4 of the way back from
the leading edge, and outboard of the elevators.
>
> I'm not sure what they do (besides generate a vortex), and I just figured
they are a "big plane" thing, and I shouldn't mess with them on a KR.  But
obviously they do something, otherwise they wouldn't be there.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Youkey
> myou...@cox.net
> Oklahoma City
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Rick Wilson" <rwdw2...@yahoo.com>
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:13 PM
> Subject: RE: KR>rain and the kr
>
>
> > Alex, Vortex generators are generally not that
> > effective except when used on canard airplanes. Rick
> > Wilson.
> > --- "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)"
> > <alexander.bi...@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > They are called Vortex generator, they are the
> > > rain/bugs contamination fix.
> > > I had asked before KR-netters opinion about to use
> > > them on KR, but it seems
> > > no body know about.  Generally the Quickie and
> > > Dragonfly owners who have installed them
> > > reporting not only fixing bugs/rain contamination
> > > fixing but as well lowering the stall speed.
> > >
> > > BR,
> > > Alex Birca,
> > > Moldova
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On
> > > Behalf Of Ross Youngblood
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:51 PM
> > > To: KRnet
> > > Subject: Re: KR>rain and the kr
> > >
> > >
> > > Good thing you don't live in Oregon.
> > >
> > > I've seen some paint damage on spam cans out here
> > > due to flying in severe rain.  I haven't flown my KR
> > > out here, but haven't heard from local EAA ers not
> > > to fly in the rain generally.
> > >
> > > Their was a canard aircraft which had some rain
> > > issues
> > > and I think I heard some similar comments from a
> > > Long-EZ
> > > pilot who had some canard fix.  I'm open to hearing
> > > from netters on this, but haven't been "warned" off
> > > of flying when the wing gets wet.
> > >
> > > I think this is one of those "laminar flow" type
> > > concerns
> > > and at the moment, I don't even recall if the KR
> > > airflow
> > > RAF-46 (I think) was a laminar flow airfoil.  It's
> > > older
> > > so I would bet it is not laminar flow... but I'm a
> > > hose
> > > head, and often wrong.
> > >
> > >  -- Ross
> > >
> > > -> each time it drizzles i don't fly i cant find any
> > > information on the
> > > -> effects
> > > > of lite rain other then higher stick pressers with
> > > the Kr.  it seams that
> > > > most wood propped airplanes don't fly anyway do to
> > > damage with or
> > > > without
> > > > urethane edge is what i understand.  i just like
> > > to know if IM caught in a shower
> > > > will it do damage to the aircraft i always wipe it
> > > down if it gets wet or
> > > > washing i also avoid the hinge points (controls)
> > > mac.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > n1055a flying
> > > > flymaca711...@aol.com
> > > > ___
> > > > see KRnet list details at
> > > http://www.krnet.org/instruction

KR>Vortex Generators

[Mark Youkey]

Rick,

Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me.  We have them on the
E-3, which is a modified Boeing 707.  I don't see how they would help with
bugs or rain, as they are on the top of the wing, 3/4 of the way back from
the leading edge, and outboard of the elevators.

I'm not sure what they do (besides generate a vortex), and I just figured
they are a "big plane" thing, and I shouldn't mess with them on a KR.  But
obviously they do something, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Thanks,
Mark Youkey
myou...@cox.net
Oklahoma City

- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Wilson" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: KR>rain and the kr


> Alex, Vortex generators are generally not that
> effective except when used on canard airplanes. Rick
> Wilson.
> --- "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)"
>  wrote:
> > They are called Vortex generator, they are the
> > rain/bugs contamination fix.
> > I had asked before KR-netters opinion about to use
> > them on KR, but it seems
> > no body know about.  Generally the Quickie and
> > Dragonfly owners who have installed them
> > reporting not only fixing bugs/rain contamination
> > fixing but as well lowering the stall speed.
> >
> > BR,
> > Alex Birca,
> > Moldova
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net
> > [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Ross
> > Youngblood
> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:51 PM
> > To: KRnet
> > Subject: Re: KR>rain and the kr
> >
> >
> > Good thing you don't live in Oregon.
> >
> > I've seen some paint damage on spam cans out here
> > due to flying in severe rain.  I haven't flown my KR
> > out here, but haven't heard from local EAA ers not
> > to fly in the rain generally.
> >
> > Their was a canard aircraft which had some rain
> > issues
> > and I think I heard some similar comments from a
> > Long-EZ
> > pilot who had some canard fix.  I'm open to hearing
> > from netters on this, but haven't been "warned" off
> > of flying when the wing gets wet.
> >
> > I think this is one of those "laminar flow" type
> > concerns
> > and at the moment, I don't even recall if the KR
> > airflow
> > RAF-46 (I think) was a laminar flow airfoil.  It's
> > older
> > so I would bet it is not laminar flow... but I'm a
> > hose
> > head, and often wrong.
> >
> >  -- Ross
> >
> > -> each time it drizzles i don't fly i cant find any
> > information on the
> > -> effects
> > > of lite rain other then higher stick pressers with
> > the Kr.  it seams that
> > > most wood propped airplanes don't fly anyway do to
> > damage with or
> > > without
> > > urethane edge is what i understand.  i just like
> > to know if IM caught in a shower
> > > will it do damage to the aircraft i always wipe it
> > down if it gets wet or
> > > washing i also avoid the hinge points (controls)
> > mac.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > n1055a flying
> > > flymaca711...@aol.com
> > > ___
> > > see KRnet list details at
> > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
> >
> > -- 
> > ___
> > Check out the latest SMS services @
> > http://www.operamail.com, which allows you to send
> > SMS through your mailbox.
> >
> > Powered by Outblaze
> >
> > ___
> > see KRnet list details at
> > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
> >
> > ___
> > see KRnet list details at
> http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
>
>
> =
> Rick Wilson, Haleyville, Alabama KR2-0200A -99% rwdw2...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
> ___
> see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html

KR>Vortex Generators

[Dan Heath]

Long EZ owners started using them on the canard because it is a laminar flow
wing that looses lift when it gets contaminated with anything.  Dirt, rain,
bugs, anything.  A friend and EZ owner was barely able to keep his nose up
long enough to get it on the ground once, so he installed them and they work


The Vortex Generators, turn a laminar flow wing into a turbulent flow wing,
such as is the RAF-48, commonly used on the KR.  If you are using a
turbulent flow wing, I don't believe that there would be any reason for
using these.

I think that the subject came up because the new wing is a type of Laminar
Flow wing. 

N64KR

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC

da...@kr-builder.org

See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering

See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic
See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org

KR>Vortex Generators

[larry severson]

>Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me.

Vortex generators prevent separation of the airflow from the wing surface 
by creating turbulent flow. It will help in reducing the effective stall 
speed for most aircraft because they are placed in the area in front of 
ailerons and flaps to guarantee that the airflow will not separate prior to 
hitting those surfaces. The stall becomes more recoverable. With the KR2's 
long aileron and a wing designed to stall at the tips first, they only 
create more drag without impacting stall speeds. {You will recognize the 
loss of lift on a KR2 long before you will be thrown into a spin.} Anything 
that creates turbulent flow creates drag (bad, bad, bad when you want to go 
fast with a small engine).


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
lar...@socal.rr.com 

KR>Vortex Generators

[Mark Youkey]

Larry & Dan,

Thanks!  Now I know, and it all makes sense to me now.  I suppose that the
only acceptable application on a fast KR would be a sort of deployable
vortex generators that deploy when you drop the flaps, and retract in a
"clean" configuration.

That sounds like a lot of workbut it would sure be cool.

Mark Youkey
myou...@cox.net
Oklahoma City

- Original Message - 
From: "larry severson" <lar...@socal.rr.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: KR>Vortex Generators


>
> >Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me.
>
> Vortex generators prevent separation of the airflow from the wing surface
> by creating turbulent flow. It will help in reducing the effective stall
> speed for most aircraft because they are placed in the area in front of
> ailerons and flaps to guarantee that the airflow will not separate prior
to
> hitting those surfaces. The stall becomes more recoverable. With the KR2's
> long aileron and a wing designed to stall at the tips first, they only
> create more drag without impacting stall speeds. {You will recognize the
> loss of lift on a KR2 long before you will be thrown into a spin.}
Anything
> that creates turbulent flow creates drag (bad, bad, bad when you want to
go
> fast with a small engine).
>
>
> Larry Severson
> Fountain Valley, CA 92708
> (714) 968-9852
> lar...@socal.rr.com
>
>
> ___
> see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html

KR>Vortex Generators

[Rick Wilson]

Mark, Actually I should have said that vortex
generators are effective on swept wings, such as the
vari-eze and longeze, velocity,etc. The airflow
seperates from the top of the wing more on swept wings
than on straight ones. Vortex generators are like
small gates or dams that make the airflow stick closer
to the surface for a longer portion of the wing
surface. It makes the wing fly better at slower
airspeeds. This is about the best I can do in general
terms. You can read more about the subject on some of
the canard aircraft sites. Rick Wilson. ps. That was
my point, they don't help that much with bugs or rain.

--- Mark Youkey  wrote:
> Rick,
> 
> Perhaps you can explain the vortex generator to me. 
> We have them on the
> E-3, which is a modified Boeing 707.  I don't see
> how they would help with
> bugs or rain, as they are on the top of the wing,
> 3/4 of the way back from
> the leading edge, and outboard of the elevators.
> 
> I'm not sure what they do (besides generate a
> vortex), and I just figured
> they are a "big plane" thing, and I shouldn't mess
> with them on a KR.  But
> obviously they do something, otherwise they wouldn't
> be there.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark Youkey
> myou...@cox.net
> Oklahoma City
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Rick Wilson" 
> To: "KRnet" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:13 PM
> Subject: RE: KR>rain and the kr
> 
> 
> > Alex, Vortex generators are generally not that
> > effective except when used on canard airplanes.
> Rick
> > Wilson.
> > --- "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)"
> >  wrote:
> > > They are called Vortex generator, they are the
> > > rain/bugs contamination fix.
> > > I had asked before KR-netters opinion about to
> use
> > > them on KR, but it seems
> > > no body know about.  Generally the Quickie and
> > > Dragonfly owners who have installed them
> > > reporting not only fixing bugs/rain
> contamination
> > > fixing but as well lowering the stall speed.
> > >
> > > BR,
> > > Alex Birca,
> > > Moldova
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net
> > > [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of
> Ross
> > > Youngblood
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:51 PM
> > > To: KRnet
> > > Subject: Re: KR>rain and the kr
> > >
> > >
> > > Good thing you don't live in Oregon.
> > >
> > > I've seen some paint damage on spam cans out
> here
> > > due to flying in severe rain.  I haven't flown
> my KR
> > > out here, but haven't heard from local EAA ers
> not
> > > to fly in the rain generally.
> > >
> > > Their was a canard aircraft which had some rain
> > > issues
> > > and I think I heard some similar comments from a
> > > Long-EZ
> > > pilot who had some canard fix.  I'm open to
> hearing
> > > from netters on this, but haven't been "warned"
> off
> > > of flying when the wing gets wet.
> > >
> > > I think this is one of those "laminar flow" type
> > > concerns
> > > and at the moment, I don't even recall if the KR
> > > airflow
> > > RAF-46 (I think) was a laminar flow airfoil. 
> It's
> > > older
> > > so I would bet it is not laminar flow... but I'm
> a
> > > hose
> > > head, and often wrong.
> > >
> > >  -- Ross
> > >
> > > -> each time it drizzles i don't fly i cant find
> any
> > > information on the
> > > -> effects
> > > > of lite rain other then higher stick pressers
> with
> > > the Kr.  it seams that
> > > > most wood propped airplanes don't fly anyway
> do to
> > > damage with or
> > > > without
> > > > urethane edge is what i understand.  i just
> like
> > > to know if IM caught in a shower
> > > > will it do damage to the aircraft i always
> wipe it
> > > down if it gets wet or
> > > > washing i also avoid the hinge points
> (controls)
> > > mac.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > n1055a flying
> > > > flymaca711...@aol.com
> > > >
> ___
> > > > see KRnet list details at
> > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
> > >
> > > -- 
> > >
> ___
> > > Check out the latest SMS services @
> > > http://www.operamail.com, which allows you to
> send
> > > SMS through your mailbox.
> > >
> > > Powered by Outblaze
> > >
> > > ___
> > > see KRnet list details at
> > > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
> > >
> > > ___
> > > see KRnet list details at
> > http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
> >
> >
> > =
> > Rick Wilson, Haleyville, Alabama KR2-0200A -99%
> rwdw2...@yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> > __
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
> >
> > ___
> > see KRnet list details at
> http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
> 
> 
> ___
> 

KR>Vortex Generators

[Gordon Sorensen]

  Hi All

  There seems to be a little confusion of the theory and practical use of 
vortex generators.  Here is my 2 cents worth.

  A Vortex generator is a group of small tabs on the top or bottom of the 
wing (also used on the vertical stab on some aircraft).  They are small 
(short) enough to be only in the laminar flow of the wing.  The tab is set 
at an angle to the airflow to introduce a rotation (or energy) to the 
airflow.  This has the effect of keeping the airflow attached to the wing at 
a greater angle of attack.  they do not reduce cruise speed at all.

  On laminar flow airfoils that are greatly affected by bugs on the leading 
edge, a vortex generator will help keep the airflow attached to the wing 
even with the bug or rain disturbing  the flow.

  Many aircraft are using vortex generators, and we have them on the Cessna 
414A that I fly.  The vortex generators reduce the stall speed and Vmc 
(single engine control speed) with the resulting lower field length 
requirements.  According to the specs, if more than 3 are mssing, we have to 
operate the aircraft as if it was not equiped.

  Another example is the New Piper Meridan.  Piper added approx 72 vortex 
gens  on the wings and horiontal stab and was able to increase the useful 
load by 240 lbs and keep the same stall speed.

  Hope this didn't add to the confusion.

  Gord Sorensen
  twotterdri...@hotmail.com

_
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KR>Vortex Generators

[Rick Wilson]

I thought that was what I said in Alabama "hillbilly
english," Rick Wilson.
>   Hi All
> 
>   There seems to be a little confusion of the theory
> and practical use of 
> vortex generators.  Here is my 2 cents worth.
> 
>   A Vortex generator is a group of small tabs on the
> top or bottom of the 
> wing (also used on the vertical stab on some
> aircraft).  They are small 
> (short) enough to be only in the laminar flow of the
> wing.  The tab is set 
> at an angle to the airflow to introduce a rotation
> (or energy) to the 
> airflow.  This has the effect of keeping the airflow
> attached to the wing at 
> a greater angle of attack.  they do not reduce
> cruise speed at all.
> 
>   On laminar flow airfoils that are greatly affected
> by bugs on the leading 
> edge, a vortex generator will help keep the airflow
> attached to the wing 
> even with the bug or rain disturbing  the flow.
> 
>   Many aircraft are using vortex generators, and we
> have them on the Cessna 
> 414A that I fly.  The vortex generators reduce the
> stall speed and Vmc 
> (single engine control speed) with the resulting
> lower field length 
> requirements.  According to the specs, if more than
> 3 are mssing, we have to 
> operate the aircraft as if it was not equiped.
> 
>   Another example is the New Piper Meridan.  Piper
> added approx 72 vortex 
> gens  on the wings and horiontal stab and was able
> to increase the useful 
> load by 240 lbs and keep the same stall speed.
> 
>   Hope this didn't add to the confusion.
> 
>   Gord Sorensen
>   twotterdri...@hotmail.com
> 
>
_
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months
> FREE*.  
>
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/features=en-ca=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
> 
> 
> ___
> see KRnet list details at
http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html


=
Rick Wilson, Haleyville, Alabama KR2-0200A -99% rwdw2...@yahoo.com



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