Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Amending and enhancing the help files
Hi all, Le 02/07/2014 10:55, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi Sophie, Olivier, Sophie píše v Út 01. 07. 2014 v 14:23 +0200: Also, do we have a tool that can track each modification in the english help file and present it for translation to our own language? I don't know what the wiki is able to do on that matter, thanks for pointing it. Moggi, Kendy, any ideas? From what I can see, this should be possible; please see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Translate There in the picture with the The translation editor: a message with a tip (not visible in image) and suggestions from two assistant languages description, you can see a link Show differences next to the This translation may need to be updated. Thanks Kendy. I've begin to read through the documentation of the Translation extension. I found this page may help to understand the process: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Translate/Page_translation_administration Interesting also that it's possible to work on the source page multiple times before tagging it for translation, and only the translation admin could mark it. I'll go on with the reading and report if I see something that could be a problem for us. Cheers Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Amending and enhancing the help files
Hi all, Le 02/07/2014 07:08, Robinson Tryon a écrit : On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 5:23 AM, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Also, do we have a tool that can track each modification in the english help file and present it for translation to our own language? I don't know what the wiki is able to do on that matter, thanks for pointing it. Moggi, Kendy, any ideas? I believe the 'Translate' extension can do that: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Translate https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:Translate_manual_-_Translate_example_-_01._LanguageStats_long.png This shows only statistics of translations, but I've found an extension where the translator is notified of the modifications by the manager: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TranslationNotifications If there's a way to implement a review system before proposed translations go live, then perhaps the work could take place right in the wiki. I believe a few of us have suggested that we use the same extension for translation in the TDF wiki. Perhaps we could trial it there first? Because of the specificities of the work, I would prefer to have a dedicated area for the help files test. There is a complex chain from extracting to import/export because it's not only a wiki thing :) I would like to see also how off line translation looks like, etc. Cheers Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Amending and enhancing the help files
Hi, we need definitely to go this way, so this activity is highly appreciated. I would add one more point: currently, a lot of extended tooltips (maybe most of them) are directly part of the help text. Therefore, if we excluded the tips, we would have strings doubled, once in help and once in tips - and it makes no sense to manage and translate them separately. Together with technical solution, I think we should also have a general discussion about help and how it should look like: for instance, do we want pictures and screenshots in it? Or any example files, external links... etc. etc. Best regards, Stanislav 2014-07-01 11:32 GMT+02:00 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: Hi all, It is a secret for nobody that the help is a nightmare to maintain for developers and contributors. However it's an important part for the quality of our product and we need to find a way that is acceptable for all of us working on it. During the last Hackfest in Paris, I discussed with Moggi and Kendy how we could organize the workflow to enhance and maintain the help and keep the translation easy for l10n team. So here is a proposal to discuss about using the wikihelp to maintain it: - the existing translations would be migrated, so no work is lost (one of the most important requirement :) - the translation project is split in 3 parts: * UI as we have it today * Extended tooltips - currently in help files, are extracted and get its own .po project * Help content, managed in the wiki - review of the added/modified part on the wiki: * random people can contribute but *not* directly * there will be an approval process, like in Pootle or Git - there is one point that is not optimal, because wiki syntax is difficult to manipulate via .po files, it would be much safer to use media wiki to translate, with the help of the translate toolkit (where you have context, extended syntax, memories). Note: translating via .po still would be possible, but really at own risks. The disadvantage that it has too is that we need two tools: - Pootle for UI + extended tooltips, - mediawiki for help. So, this is how we can present the pros and cons maintaining our help files via the wiki to reach more contributors and quality. Nothing is set yet, but we need to find a consensus to have our help amended and maintained, reach a good quality and really serves our users. Feedback and ideas welcome :) Cheers Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Amending and enhancing the help files
Hi Markus,
Markus Mohrhard píše v St 02. 07. 2014 v 18:51 +0200:
I believe 1) is the easiest from the development point of
view, and I
think also most consistent for translation - as you won't have
to sync
between 2 tools to get the help completely translated. But
now I am not
completely sure how that fits the Markus' current tooling that
he has
already prototyped - Markus, can we translate even the
extended tooltips
in the Translate extension? Does that fit you?
I have no idea if that is possible. The biggest problem would be the
ones that are not part of the visible help texts.
Ah yes; so I thought there would be a special page that would only hold
those invisible ones.
I mean, if we had them all using a template like
{{Tooltip|modules/swriter/ui/flddocinfopage/fixed|Inserts the field as static
content, that is, the field cannot be updated.}}
it could be used inline for the visible ones, or in a special page that
wouldn't be part of the help itself for the invisible ones. But no idea
if the Translate extension can extract only the parameter of the
template in some way if we mark it so, or if the entire above template
definition would appear for translation.
Having said that - seeing what actually is being used as the extended
tooltips, I am not sure if it is a huge loss if we go the 3) way, as
Markus points out:
Currently I personally would tend to the third solution but I
understand the concerns of the translators. My idea was that as we
keep the already translated strings this is not too bad.
All the best,
Kendy
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Amending and enhancing the help files
Hello Sophie Thanks for bringing this issue to a broader audience. Some notes here. Please bear in mind that not everywhere in the world have 100MB broadband access like in Europe, and a offline help is important. That is a constrain to having a wikihelp only solution. Are you going to make English as the text reference to translate or each NL team will have its own text? Also, do we have a tool that can track each modification in the english help file and present it for translation to our own language? Since I played a bit with the new UI dialogs and the help files, I think the help tips can be migrated to the *.ui files. If affirmative, it will help to collect all related matters (ui + help tips) in the same dialog file. Finally, I would like to inform to the list that I opened a meta-bug to collect the features that have no help page for. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80430 and there is a lot of undocumented features... Kind regards Olivier Em 01-07-2014 06:32, Sophie escreveu: Hi all, It is a secret for nobody that the help is a nightmare to maintain for developers and contributors. However it's an important part for the quality of our product and we need to find a way that is acceptable for all of us working on it. During the last Hackfest in Paris, I discussed with Moggi and Kendy how we could organize the workflow to enhance and maintain the help and keep the translation easy for l10n team. So here is a proposal to discuss about using the wikihelp to maintain it: - the existing translations would be migrated, so no work is lost (one of the most important requirement :) - the translation project is split in 3 parts: * UI as we have it today * Extended tooltips - currently in help files, are extracted and get its own .po project * Help content, managed in the wiki - review of the added/modified part on the wiki: * random people can contribute but *not* directly * there will be an approval process, like in Pootle or Git - there is one point that is not optimal, because wiki syntax is difficult to manipulate via .po files, it would be much safer to use media wiki to translate, with the help of the translate toolkit (where you have context, extended syntax, memories). Note: translating via .po still would be possible, but really at own risks. The disadvantage that it has too is that we need two tools: - Pootle for UI + extended tooltips, - mediawiki for help. So, this is how we can present the pros and cons maintaining our help files via the wiki to reach more contributors and quality. Nothing is set yet, but we need to find a consensus to have our help amended and maintained, reach a good quality and really serves our users. Feedback and ideas welcome :) Cheers Sophie -- Olivier Hallot Comunidade LibreOffice http://ask.libreoffice.org/pt-br -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Amending and enhancing the help files
Hi Olivier, Le 01/07/2014 12:43, Olivier Hallot a écrit : Hello Sophie Thanks for bringing this issue to a broader audience. Some notes here. Please bear in mind that not everywhere in the world have 100MB broadband access like in Europe, and a offline help is important. That is a constrain to having a wikihelp only solution. It will be available as off line solution too. Even in Europe, lot of users in companies are not able to browse online during their work time. Are you going to make English as the text reference to translate or each NL team will have its own text? No, English as a reference as usual, we want to keep the same quality for all. Also, do we have a tool that can track each modification in the english help file and present it for translation to our own language? I don't know what the wiki is able to do on that matter, thanks for pointing it. Moggi, Kendy, any ideas? Since I played a bit with the new UI dialogs and the help files, I think the help tips can be migrated to the *.ui files. If affirmative, it will help to collect all related matters (ui + help tips) in the same dialog file. ah, interesting, thanks for the feedback Finally, I would like to inform to the list that I opened a meta-bug to collect the features that have no help page for. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80430 and there is a lot of undocumented features... I'll find some time to consolidate with the others issues that are already opened. Cheers Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Amending and enhancing the help files
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 5:23 AM, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Also, do we have a tool that can track each modification in the english help file and present it for translation to our own language? I don't know what the wiki is able to do on that matter, thanks for pointing it. Moggi, Kendy, any ideas? I believe the 'Translate' extension can do that: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Translate https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:Translate_manual_-_Translate_example_-_01._LanguageStats_long.png If there's a way to implement a review system before proposed translations go live, then perhaps the work could take place right in the wiki. I believe a few of us have suggested that we use the same extension for translation in the TDF wiki. Perhaps we could trial it there first? --R -- Robinson Tryon LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald Senior QA Bug Wrangler The Document Foundation qu...@libreoffice.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
