Fwd: [lace] thread for Hollie Point
Catherine Barley Needlelace www.catherinebarley.com Original message >From : catherinebar...@btinternet.com Date : 23/03/2016 - 08:35 (GMTST) To : lace@arachne.com Subject : Fwd: [lace] thread for Hollie Point WELL HERE'S THE EMAIL I'M FORWARDING FROM MY 'sent items' WHICH IS THE ONE I THOUGHT YOU WOULD ALL RECEIVE! I have no idea what happened and can only apologise once again. Catherine Original message >From : catherinebar...@btinternet.com Date : To : jsyz...@comcast.net, lace@arachne.com Subject : Re: [lace] thread for Hollie Point Hi Julie Well as you've already discovered, choice of thread for any type/style of lace is very personal and what suits one person is no necessarily the choice of another. Brenda Paternoster is the accepted expert on threads and if you don't already have a copy of her invaluable little book 'Threads for Lace', I would recommend that you get hold of a copy as soon as you can. Threads are continually going out of production and as I worked the sample in my book with a No 120 Copley Marshall thread that was no longer available by the time my book was published, I suggested either a Brok cotton 160 or Egyptian cotton 120 which would give a similar result. Bearing in mind that my book was first published in 1993, I have recently been informed by several UK lace suppliers that Brok cotton is no longer being manufactured, so Egyptian cotton No 120 is the recommended thread for this particular sample. Hollie point was usually only found in baby clothing i.e bonnets or 'vests' which presumably is why it was worked in such fine thread, as a thicker gauge of thread would have produced a larger sample, too big to incorporate into the crown or back of a baby bonnet or shoulders of a 'vest'. Dates were also frequently incorporated into these works and you will notice that my pattern No 3 also includes the date 1991! I worked this piece of Hollie Point 25 years ago and even then I needed magnification to work it. For this very reason, I agree with Devon that whilst most forms of needlelace are portable, Hollie Point is not one that I would like to carry in my handbag as one needs absolute concentration to work this very fine exacting type of lace, enabling the worker to continually count the number of stitches required to make the pattern work correctly and probably magnification of some kind. I would compare it more towards the working of Filet crochet lace where the patter! n is formed by voiding (holes), rather than cross stitch, where the pattern is formed by changes in colour of threads. Cotton is also the most practical thread to use, rather than silk, because we all know that baby clothes need frequent washing (sometimes boiling), as they are naturally messy little souls and of course Gutermann 100/3 silk thread or any other silk thread, would not be a wise choice for Hollie Point. The Freesia No 15 needles of course are no longer available either but I use a Sharps No 10 or No 12 for the fine net background in my Point de Gaze, which incidentally is worked using the same twisted buttonhole stitch as the Hollie Point and I use both Brok and Egyptian cotton for this purpose. Hollie Point is not quite as simple as it might first appear, which is why pattern No 1 is just a diamond within a diamond, within a diamond and worked in a No 20 crochet cotton, making it easy for the worker to see what she is doing by using a thicker thread and also to hopefully understand the necessity to count the stitches required to produce the holes/voids in the correct position. I know that most workers new to Hollie Point think that its easy because one just makes a hole to either the left or right of the hole in the previous row, but if one doesn't count the number of stitches between these holes/voids, it is easy to have made a mistake by not working sufficient STITCHES, resulting in too few LOOPS in the following row! Not all patterns are diamonds, some are flowers in pots etc and one doesn't simply work a hole to either the left or right of the one above, but needs to know how to work these more complicated patterns and one can't do that if one doesn't unders! tand that it is necessary to make TWO STICHES into a void to form a LOOP for the following row. Having worked this sample all those years ago, I have never had the desire to work another! Happy stitching Catherine Barley www.catherinebarley.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Fwd: [lace] thread for Hollie Point
Original message >From : catherinebar...@btinternet.com Date : To : jsyz...@comcast.net, lace@arachne.com Subject : Re: [lace] thread for Hollie Point Hi Julie Well as you've already discovered, choice of thread for any type/style of lace is very personal and what suits one person is no necessarily the choice of another. Brenda Paternoster is the accepted expert on threads and if you don't already have a copy of her invaluable little book 'Threads for Lace', I would recommend that you get hold of a copy as soon as you can. Threads are continually going out of production and as I worked the sample in my book with a No 120 Copley Marshall thread that was no longer available by the time my book was published, I suggested either a Brok cotton 160 or Egyptian cotton 120 which would give a similar result. Bearing in mind that my book was first published in 1993, I have recently been informed by several UK lace suppliers that Brok cotton is no longer being manufactured, so Egyptian cotton No 120 is the recommended thread for this particular sample. Hollie point was usually only found in baby clothing i.e bonnets or 'vests' which presumably is why it was worked in such fine thread, as a thicker gauge of thread would have produced a larger sample, too big to incorporate into the crown or back of a baby bonnet or shoulders of a 'vest'. Dates were also frequently incorporated into these works and you will notice that my pattern No 3 also includes the date 1991! I worked this piece of Hollie Point 25 years ago and even then I needed magnification to work it. For this very reason, I agree with Devon that whilst most forms of needlelace are portable, Hollie Point is not one that I would like to carry in my handbag as one needs absolute concentration to work this very fine exacting type of lace, enabling the worker to continually count the number of stitches required to make the pattern work correctly and probably magnification of some kind. I would compare it more towards the working of Filet crochet lace where the patter! n is formed by voiding (holes), rather than cross stitch, where the pattern is formed by changes in colour of threads. Cotton is also the most practical thread to use, rather than silk, because we all know that baby clothes need frequent washing (sometimes boiling), as they are naturally messy little souls and of course Gutermann 100/3 silk thread or any other silk thread, would not be a wise choice for Hollie Point. The Freesia No 15 needles of course are no longer available either but I use a Sharps No 10 or No 12 for the fine net background in my Point de Gaze, which incidentally is worked using the same twisted buttonhole stitch as the Hollie Point and I use both Brok and Egyptian cotton for this purpose. Hollie Point is not quite as simple as it might first appear, which is why pattern No 1 is just a diamond within a diamond, within a diamond and worked in a No 20 crochet cotton, making it easy for the worker to see what she is doing by using a thicker thread and also to hopefully understand the necessity to count the stitches required to produce the holes/voids in the correct position. I know that most workers new to Hollie Point think that its easy because one just makes a hole to either the left or right of the hole in the previous row, but if one doesn't count the number of stitches between these holes/voids, it is easy to have made a mistake by not working sufficient STITCHES, resulting in too few LOOPS in the following row! Not all patterns are diamonds, some are flowers in pots etc and one doesn't simply work a hole to either the left or right of the one above, but needs to know how to work these more complicated patterns and one can't do that if one doesn't unders! tand that it is necessary to make TWO STICHES into a void to form a LOOP for the following row. Having worked this sample all those years ago, I have never had the desire to work another! Happy stitching Catherine Barley www.catherinebarley.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Thread for Hollie Point
Dear Julie, 1. Catherine Barley, the author of the book you are using, is a member of Arachne. There are 329 messages from her in the archives under her name. So, wait a bit, and maybe she will weigh in with her experience. To verify I am correct, type her name in the search box at: http://www.mail-archive.com/lace@arachne.ccom/index.html 2. We have written a lot about threads through the years, and some of those memos are in the archives, if you search a variety of ways. This is a long research process, but I think a search of the following and other memos in the "Structure of Threads for Lace" file might help: _http://www.mail-archive.com/lace%40arachne.com/msg35959.html_ (http://www.mail-archive.com/lace@arachne.com/msg35959.html) 3. One thing not mentioned in quite this way, so in my words - thread has grain. You must stitch with the grain, and not against it. This will reduce wear on thread and fuzzy results. Draw the thread through your thumb and index finger in each direction. One will feel smoother than the other. Once you have determined that, always thread your needle from the end that produces the smoothest feel. Even DMC embroidery floss has a grain. It will take a while to develop touch sensitivity, but it is highly recommended. Grain of thread is something that was taught to young girls in American 7th grade home economics classes 60 years ago. READ PLEASE: The sewing thread for your sewing machine comes off the spool in the direction you need to thread into the needle's eye - not only for a sewing machine - but also for hand sewing. Unfortunately, this is not true of all thread coming off a spool. Some modern manufacturers seem to do whatever is convenient, being unfamiliar with how we use the thread (explained in the book referenced in (2) above). 4. Julie, the nicest way to learn lacemaking and advance quickly is with others who share your interest. Are you aware of the Chesapeake Region Lace Guild? _www.crlg.org/_ (http://www.crlg.org/) . They draw members from the states surrounding Washington DC. Also, The Embroiderers' Guild of America has several chapters near you. http://www.egausa.org/ Needle laces are more likely to be taught by The Embroiderers' Guild. They embrace all lace works made with a threaded needle, and have quite a few teachers in the U.S. At this time in history, lace guilds seem to be focusing on bobbin lace. (I have belonged to 4 local lace guilds between Maine and Washington DC for up to 4 decades, and to EGA for nearly 50 years, so feel secure in this claim.) Jeri Ames in Maine USA Lace and Embroidery Resource Center -- In a message dated 3/21/2016 3:12:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jsyz...@comcast.net writes: Should I try a different thread? I guess threads are either cotton, linen, or silk. Or any of those types right out of the question for Hollie Point, or needlelace in general? What do I look for in a thread? I am wondering if maybe some threads stand up to the abuse better than others and Tanne 50 is not the sturdiest choice. Also, what about the final result? Do some threads give nicer final results? And what about the feel of thread as you work with it? In bobbin lace I enjoy the way different thread material feels differently as I work with it. My book mentions "Brok 160 or Egyptian Cotton 120". How do Brok and Egyptian Cotton compare with Tanne 50? What size thread should I be using anyway? Brok 160 and EC 120 are, according to my thread chart, significantly smaller than Tanne 50. Should I stick with threads the same size as Tanne 50 or would I find that I can after all make needlelace in good light with a smaller thread? In general I am the sort of person who likes lace to be fine. I get bored with coarse lace. Maybe you guys will talk about threads andmake me feel inspired to try new ones. Julie Shalack Laurel, Maryland, USA - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Thread for Hollie Point
While I agree with all the other posters about thread, thread length, etc., let me be the first to suggest that your concept of having needle lace be your "portable" lace may be unrealistic, especially if it is Hollie Point. Generally people turn to tatting for a portable lace. My colleague has a sample of needle lace that she made from her own hair while riding on a train, and she claims it can be done by feeling the stitch snap into place. However, I believe that the proper place to do needle lace is in a purpose designed area with state of the art lighting or big windows, a table nearby for the thread which you need to change constantly, and with an Optivisor on your head. An Optivisor is a magnification visor that people wear to do close work. The appearance of an Optivisor may be frightening to others, so it is not advisable to use it on public conveyances. I am a great fan of the Optivisor ever since Irma Osterman, a needle lace teacher, let me use hers. Your work when you look at it through the Optivisor may seem uneven to you, but when you take off the visor, it will seem very neat and even. Unfortunately, this means that the environment needed for needle lace is very similar to the environment needed for bobbin lace. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] ] thread for Hollie Point
Hi, Julie, and Welcome to the very addictive world of needlelace!! I, too have worked from the Barley book. Hollie point, I find, is not an easy lace to make! I worked 2 samples - one in Fincrochet #20, and the other - same pattern - in Brock 100/3. I will email you privately, with a scan of the 2 samples . I have worked needlelace quite successfully using the Brok 100/3 I think the Madeira Tanne is too loose a twist for doing a closely worked needlelace like Hollie Point. You need a firmer thread. Finca bobbin lace threads are Ok, though - they seem to be a firmer thread, - more "body" to them. Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz. lizl...@bigpond.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] thread for Hollie Point
Hi Julie Tanner 50 is 39 wraps/cm. Brok 160 is 66 wraps/cm and Egyptian 120 is 58 wraps/cm so they are both considerably finer than the Tanne Actually Egyptian 60/2 is 39 wraps/cm the same as Tanne 50 and Brok 70 is 38 wraps/cm (very marginally thicker). Any Egyptian cotton with a number higher than 60/2 or Brok with a higher number than 70/2 will be thinner than Tanne 50. Egyptian cotton comes as fine as 185/2 which is an eye watering 85 wraps/cm The other important thing about Brok and Egyptian cotton is that they are manufactured as lace threads and are S twisted. Tanner is manufactured as a machine embroidery thread and is Z twisted. If you are having problems with the Tanne twisting up as you work you might well find that Brok or Egyptian will be easier to work with. Brenda > > Do some threads give nicer final results? And what about the feel of thread as you work with it? In bobbin lace I enjoy the way different thread material feels differently as I work with it. > My book mentions "Brok 160 or Egyptian Cotton 120". How do Brok and Egyptian Cotton compare with Tanne 50? > What size thread should I be using anyway? Brok 160 and EC 120 are, according to my thread chart, significantly smaller than Tanne 50. Brenda in Allhallows paternos...@appleshack.com www.brendapaternoster.co.uk - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] thread for Hollie Point
What about letting the thread and needle hang free for a while? Won't that untwist it the correct way? Karen in Malta - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] thread for Hollie Point
Hi Julie, It’s a long time since I worked any Hollie Point but I used Madeira Tanne 50 for the best sample I made (I’ll send you a scan privately). In that one I had about 8 rows and 15 stitches in a 0.25 in square. By comparison a piece of Hollie Point in the Glasgow Museums Collection had about 10 rows and 22 stitches in a 0.25 in square - more stitches closer together, although I was getting close. I can’t remember what size needle I used. I do remember that I could only work that tightly with good light and sometimes needed a magnifying glass too! You do need to use short lengths of thread for needle lace - the length of your forearm is a good guide. Any more than that and the threads will start looking sad before you get to the end. When Hollie Point was made I expect linen was used rather than cotton but I’ve never seen any made with silk. I’ve always found that linen available today isn’t good for needlelace as it tends to fall apart quickly. Perhaps the quality was better in the 18th/19th century. Jean in cool but dry Glasgow - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] thread for Hollie Point
Hi Julie: Just a couple of quick pointers: About the kinking - you can control this by rolling the needle in your fingers between stitches, to take off the twist you just put on. Once you learn which way to twist the needle you do it between each stitch and the movement becomes easy and natural. When you already have a kink, to know whether to remove it by twisting the needle clockwise or counterclockwise: allow the thread to twist back on itself and look at the point where the twist starts. If the bit of thread coming from your needle is in front of the thread coming from the work, you twist counter-clockwise. If the thread from your needle is behind the thread from the work, twist clockwise. (this would be so much easier to show you if I could do it with a sketch) I see you’ve already realized this, but yes, you do need to use shorter lengths of thread to avoid the abrasion problem, especially with Hollie Point because the thread wraps around itself as you tighten the stitch. I have the same book, and I see there are good instructions for changing threads in the middle of a row. Better to master how to change threads than to fight with abrasion. Needles - a #26 tapestry needle might be too coarse. You can get a thinner needle and dull the point if you like. I haven’t seen the #15 Fresia needles she refers to in the book - has anybody else? What are they like? Hope this helps. Adele West Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada) > On Mar 21, 2016, at 12:12 PM, jsyz...@comcast.net wrote: > > I've completed a Hollie Point needlelace exercise! Great, right? On to the > third exercise! Except, suddenly I feel disenchanted with my thread. It's > Tanne 50, a cotton thread. Should I try a different thread? I guess threads > are either cotton, linen, or silk. Or any of those types right out of the > question for Hollie Point, or needlelace in general? What do I look for in a > thread? > I'm dissatisfied with the Tanne 50 because it looks great coming off the > spool but it gets really beaten up after I've been sewing with it for a > while. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] thread for Hollie Point
I've completed a Hollie Point needlelace exercise! Great, right? On to the third exercise! Except, suddenly I feel disenchanted with my thread. It's Tanne 50, a cotton thread. Should I try a different thread? I guess threads are either cotton, linen, or silk. Or any of those types right out of the question for Hollie Point, or needlelace in general? What do I look for in a thread? I'm dissatisfied with the Tanne 50 because it looks great coming off the spool but it gets really beaten up after I've been sewing with it for a while. I think that's natural? Needelace is hard on thread because the thread is constantly being pulled through the narrow previous stitch. Also, something about the motion of needelace seems to add a twist to the thread so it gets more and more kinked up as I work. Also, being a beginner I occasionally make mistakes and have to unlace, which is extra rough on the thread (of course unlacing is bad for thread in bobbin lace, too, so that's not news). I think maybe there is a natural conflict in needlelace between wanting the thread to be really long, so you are not constantly tying off old thread and starting new threads, and needing the threads to be sort of short, so that by the time you get to the end of the thread you aren't sewing with dingy pathetic shreds. So, just naturally I've been reducing my thread lengths as time has gone by, in response to the thread being so mangled by the time I get to the end. Having a shorter thread also helps with the problem of kinking. I countertwist my thread when I notice it begin to kink, but I am hindered there because, and I 've really tried, I am unable to figure out what direction I should counterturn the thread. "Clearly clockwise" I finally decide. Then a little while later "why did I think clockwise? Clearly counterclockwise". Still more later "no, clockwise was right in the first place." And on and on forever. One time I decided that for my newest piece of thread I would once and for all end the twisting problem by diligently countertwisting at almost every stitch, and I totally overdid it and the thread actually ended up falling apart in my hands. Wow, I didn't even know thread did that. OK, so I have respect for the way needlelace chews up thread. Nonetheless, I am wondering if maybe some threads stand up to the abuse better than others and Tanne 50 is not the sturdiest choice. Also, what about the final result? Do some threads give nicer final results? And what about the feel of thread as you work with it? In bobbin lace I enjoy the way different thread material feels differently as I work with it. My book mentions "Brok 160 or Egyptian Cotton 120". How do Brok and Egyptian Cotton compare with Tanne 50? What size thread should I be using anyway? Brok 160 and EC 120 are, according to my thread chart, significantly smaller than Tanne 50. It is important to me that my needelace be portable, since if I am at home I can make bobbin lace. In Hollie Point the number of stitches in a piece is fixed and the size of the piece is just whatever you end up with when you make that number of stitches. The exercise I just did was about 160 stitches wide and it is a little over 3 inches long, call it 153 stitches for three inches, 51 stitches per inch. About 8 centimeters, so 20 stitches per cm. At this size, I can make needlelace in good light but not in mediocre light. Also my stitches are just a little bit smaller than my size 26 tapestry needle. I am afraid that if I go any smaller than I would only be able to do it in excellent light, so it would no longer be portable. Also I guess I would have to find smaller needles, I guess some sort of sharp, but I could learn to deal with! that. Should I stick with threads the same size as Tanne 50 or would I find that I can after all make needlelace in good light with a smaller thread? In general I am the sort of person who likes lace to be fine. I get bored with coarse lace. It's a surprise to me to be doing this third exercise at all. In Hollie Point, the idea is that you have a simple rectangle and you completely fill it with stitches to end up with a solid, boring rectangle of knitted-looking cloth, in my case a 160 stitch by 37 row rectangle. Except! Except the rectangle isn't boring after all because as you work it you strategically occasionally leave out stitches, which causes visible holes in the cloth. You place the holes in such a way as to form a delicate picture. So Hollie Point is like counted cross stitch, except that the picture is formed not by contrasting colors of thread but by the contrast of hole and stitch. My book is "Chapter 2: Hollie Point" of Catherine Barley's "Needelace Designs and Techniques Classic and Contemporary". The entire time I was doing the first exercise, a simple diamond inside a diamond, I was dissatisfied. "If I want to do counted cross stitch",
