Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?/judging
I'm a judge in Australia and this is a real problem. The piece is judged overall, so mounting is certainly taken into consideration. You can't know in our competitions if something has been mounted by another person unless you are told by the stewards. They should have asked or be informed when the piece was entered in the show or competition. If we are told we ignore the mounting because it is not the work of the entrant. Otherwise we have to judge it as the whole work. Unless it is heirloom sewing where machine work is accepted by most judges, we favour hand mounting over machine mounting. The biggest problem for us in Australia is patchwork quilts where the quilt has been machine quilted. We have trouble when people don't declare they have sent the quilt to a professional for quilting. Some quilters have long arm quilting machines at home now so we have to give the benefit of the doubt and trust people to be honest. When they have declared it to be professionally quilted, we only judge the patchwork. There are sometimes challenges which can be very unpleasant. As for size, I know small pieces against large pieces is hard, but I do dock pieces hard for mistakes. I once had a crochet tablecloth and although there were no mistakes the tension and starting circles weren't as neat as they could be. I had to give it a lower mark than other smaller pieces. There was a challenge to it, but it comes back to doing something exactly so each time, and if there is one example or thirty there must be that consistancy. I am a hard judge on lace, because I am not swayed by fine thread or big pieces, but most people who have been judged by me haven't had a problem with it. I am able to speak to competitors after judging most competitions with CWA and actively encourage people to challenge or to ask me to rejudge pieces and give them feedback. I really believe in trying to promote excellence and pushing people to try harder each time in a nice way. --- Rochelle Sutherland & Lachlan (9 yrs), Duncan (8 yrs) and Iain (6 yrs) www.houseofhadrian.com.au > And in a competition on the continent, would this possibility be > taken into account, or do the rules state the lace must be finished by > the > lacemaker. I can't answer this question but it is an interestin one and I will ask other people here. Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
Hello Jacqui and all, in my opnion there is no must except this must you give yourself. So if you feel so you can let do the mounting by another person. And people which do mounting every day are perhaps better in doing so than oneself. till now I did all the work including mounting myself and I didn't want that somebody did anything for me - but perhaps one day... I try not to say never ever you know. Is it better for the lacemaker themself to mount the lace, even if it's by machine, than to hand it over to a third party. I think that's the decision of each of us alone. Ther isn't a role. And in a competition on the continent, would this possibility be taken into account, or do the rules state the lace must be finished by the lacemaker. I can't answer this question but it is an interestin one and I will ask other people here. In the competition of the DKV there are seldom doilies or handkerchiefs so I guess the question doesn't appear yet. But if the competition is about such things than in my opinion both had to be done by the same person because the whole thing will be judged. If it is only about the lace than other rules will be. I'll tell you if I found out something. Greetings Ilske - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
As I understand it, the people who have been joining and mounting lace professionally (and for such reasonable rates) are getting older and less able to do the fine work. Unless others learn to do this, we may find ourselves with no one to do it for us - yet another reason to learn to do the joining and mounting ourselves. Clay -- Clay Blackwell Lynchburg, VA USA -- Original message -- From: Aurelia Loveman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I'm with you, Clay. After reading everybody's thoughts and climbing > in and out of everybody's shoes, and sympathizing absolutely with > everybody's opinion in turn, I think you've got it, Clay! -- > Aurelia - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
I love what has been said by Clay about "finish"... In a little self published booklet(1984), "Laces for a Lady" (which is one of my most prized books), the compiler, Fiona Birchall quotes from the "Complete Book of Baskets & Basketry" by Doreen Wright, in which the author states, "Craftsmanship is knowing how to do something, refusing to do it less well than one can, knowing one's material and giving to everything made what may be called finish. Finish gives an inevitability to any piece of craftwork whether pot, basket, leather bag, knitted sock, piece of embroidery or papering a room. What is finish? It is the difference between the handmade and the homemade, clean endings and beginnings, the beauty of order which is only achieved by competence, by craftsmanship. Those who cannot see it have not achieved it." This quote has been my personal "challenge" to myself in regards to my own lacemaking. I do intend to achieve "finish" by hand one day :) someday... I also agree that it is a personal choice. I have a friend who does french hand sewing techniques by machine. Her work is beautiful to me. Remember once lacemakers had to come to terms with using machine spun threads, but hand finishing is not something that we will ever be forced to give up. Debbie in Florida - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
I'm with you, Clay. After reading everybody's thoughts and climbing in and out of everybody's shoes, and sympathizing absolutely with everybody's opinion in turn, I think you've got it, Clay! -- Aurelia I've judged at our State Fair, and in that venue there is no requirement for things to be hand finished. And yes, it is sad to see a beautiful piece of lace badly mounted (regardless of *how* it's mounted). Most competitions are specific in their requirements, and this is the time to consider whether or not to use hand finishing. I still say that it is up to the individual, and have no quarrel with Devon's point. On the other hand, I am personally committed to learning to attach lace by hand (that's my obsessive choice. ;)). It seems absurd to have spent ten years learning to make exquisite lace as it was made in the 17th - 18th centuries, and then blow off the finishing. It takes me the better part of a year to complete Binche lace for a handkerchief, and to spend a week getting the mounting right is not too much to expect. I'm not worried about the problem of picking it apart again after the handkerchief disentegrates - I don't plan to use this on a daily basis!! Part of the appeal to me is to hold the finished object and know that 300 - 400 years ago, someone once held a handkerchief very much like this and it was considered as valuable as a gem. The thread and the handkerchief fabric aren't linen because we can't get fine linen today. But otherwise, it is a faithful reproduction. Clay - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
Even in Bruges today, the lacemakers don't (mostly) mount their own lace. There are still specialist needlepersons who do it for them. Some of my students try to make sure their Flanders /Binche lace is finished to coincide with a trip, so the overlap join and mounting task can be handed over to the experts. Now, there's a conumdrum for you. Is it better for the lacemaker themself to mount the lace, even if it's by machine, than to hand it over to a third party. And in a competition on the continent, would this possibility be taken into account, or do the rules state the lace must be finished by the lacemaker. Jacquie in Lincolshire. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
I know - my plan (if I ever start the piece of Binche I dream of doing) is to get it finished in Bruges. And they don't even charge a fortune for overlapping and mounting. I have no great desire to spend the time sewing - and practising to get a good result - when I can pay someone else to do it for me in an expert fashion and leave me the time free to make lace. yes, I wondered what the rules on finishing would be in a competition Sue - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities? Even in Bruges today, the lacemakers don't (mostly) mount their own lace. There are still specialist needlepersons who do it for them. Some of my students try to make sure their Flanders /Binche lace is finished to coincide with a trip, so the overlap join and mounting task can be handed over to the experts. Now, there's a conumdrum for you. Is it better for the lacemaker themself to mount the lace, even if it's by machine, than to hand it over to a third party. And in a competition on the continent, would this possibility be taken into account, or do the rules state the lace must be finished by the lacemaker. Jacquie in Lincolshire. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
On the other hand, I am personally committed to learning to attach lace by hand (that's my obsessive choice. ;)). It seems absurd to have spent ten years learning to make exquisite lace as it was made in the 17th - 18th centuries, and then blow off the finishing. It takes me the better part of a year to complete Binche lace for a handkerchief, and to spend a week getting the mounting right is not too much to expect. > Clay I suspect that in the 17th - 18th centuries the lace was mounted on the handkerchief / garment by someone completely different from the lacemaker. We know that lace was bought by the yard by lace dealers and each step of the needle-lace process was undertaken by a different person. We are now trying to learn every step in the process, whereas then people worked with their strongest skills to earn as much money as they could (which wasn't much). Sue Babbs - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
I've judged at our State Fair, and in that venue there is no requirement for things to be hand finished. And yes, it is sad to see a beautiful piece of lace badly mounted (regardless of *how* it's mounted). Most competitions are specific in their requirements, and this is the time to consider whether or not to use hand finishing. I still say that it is up to the individual, and have no quarrel with Devon's point. On the other hand, I am personally committed to learning to attach lace by hand (that's my obsessive choice. ;)). It seems absurd to have spent ten years learning to make exquisite lace as it was made in the 17th - 18th centuries, and then blow off the finishing. It takes me the better part of a year to complete Binche lace for a handkerchief, and to spend a week getting the mounting right is not too much to expect. I'm not worried about the problem of picking it apart again after the handkerchief disentegrates - I don't plan to use this on a daily basis!! Part of the appeal to me is to hold the finished object and know that 300 - 400 years ago, someone once held a handkerchief very much like this and it was considered as valuable as a gem. The thread and the handkerchief fabric aren't linen because we can't get fine linen today. But otherwise, it is a faithful reproduction. Clay -- Clay Blackwell Lynchburg, VA USA -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Clay speaks of doing laborious hand mounting only of things to be judged. > > Speaking from the perspective of a person who has been called in to judge > lace on occasion, I find the hand-finishing issue troubling. Some pieces are > very beautifully hand finished, representing a huge amount of time spent on > that > aspect. These pieces don't always have the best lace on them. Sometimes > there is a piece that has been nicely machine finished, or even not so nicely > finished, but is a much better piece of lace. What is a judge to do? How much > credit should be accorded on finishing? Even on a point system divided > between > different aspects, a nicely hand finished piece picks up 10 points over one > that is not. But my emerging feeling is that, since judging impacts the > development of the craft, I would like to encourage more and better > lacemaking, > not laborious French sewing. I almost see spending a lot of time on attaching > a > piece of lace to a piece of fabric as something that poses an obstacle to > the greater goal, if we are to survive as a craft, of making more and better > lace. > > At what point does the lace judge say, "this is the 21st century" and what > would have been extremely important in the mid 19th is becoming irrelevant? > Frankly, I am beginning to notice that most of the things I was raised to > believe are important are now irrelevant. > > Devon > proposing a radical concept > > > > **See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) > > - > To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: > unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How much credit should be accorded on finishing? Even on a point system divided between different aspects, a nicely hand finished piece picks up 10 points over one that is not. But my emerging feeling is that, since judging impacts the development of the craft, I would like to encourage more and better lacemaking, not laborious French sewing. I see your point, Devon, but I'm not entirely comfortable with it. I agree that the lace itself should be more important than the sewing. However, shouldn't presentation and finishing count? Should delicious jam not lose points for being put into competition in a dirty, cracked container? Should a garment not lose points if it's entered into a contest all wrinkled and stained? Should framed lace not lose points if the background is warped and rippled? I agree that the points for execution of the lace should be greater than points for the presentation, but there ought to be points for both IMO. Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
"Even on a point system divided between different aspects, a nicely hand finished piece picks up 10 points over one that is not. But my emerging feeling is that, since judging impacts the development of the craft, I would like to encourage more and better lacemaking, not laborious French sewing." This worry of Devon's, and underlying most of the posts on the subject with all the 'jokes' about the lace-police, is that there is something wrong or inferior about machine mounting lace. Let me please make a couple of points for your consideration. Firstly, it is just as difficult (if not more so) to mount a piece of lace really well by machine as by hand. As I said in an earlier post, you need to practise and practise, you will need to be meticulous about the tension on the machine and the settings and accessories you use and you will need to concentrate just as much as when you are mounting by hand. But, if you don't enjoy or are bad at hand sewing, the challenge of getting your machine working just right may be less threatening for you. And once you have that different skill available, it is certainly quicker to machine mount. Sometimes too quick :-) one of the skills you need to master is sewing slowly enough that the machine does what you tell it to do. The other point is that just because you have used a machine, it doesn't doom that piece of lace to a life of eternal shame, and in the same way our ancestors would unpick and re-use lace on another garment, machine stitching can be undone so the lace can be 'saved' by a future owner if that's what they feel strongly about. If you are really worried about this, consider making an extra, narrow 'entre-deux' which can be whip stitched/oversewn to the lace by matching the pinholes and machine sewn to the fabric. Using the same graph size and thread it ends up very inconspicuous. A six-pair braid, consisting of two passives and four worker/edge pairs, that ctct to the centre, kiss and work on the the other edge is the sort I have in mind. This is really quick to work and if it gets snipped at some future unpicking, is no great loss. Jacquie in Lincolnshire - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Hand or machine- emerging sensibilities?
Clay speaks of doing laborious hand mounting only of things to be judged. Speaking from the perspective of a person who has been called in to judge lace on occasion, I find the hand-finishing issue troubling. Some pieces are very beautifully hand finished, representing a huge amount of time spent on that aspect. These pieces don't always have the best lace on them. Sometimes there is a piece that has been nicely machine finished, or even not so nicely finished, but is a much better piece of lace. What is a judge to do? How much credit should be accorded on finishing? Even on a point system divided between different aspects, a nicely hand finished piece picks up 10 points over one that is not. But my emerging feeling is that, since judging impacts the development of the craft, I would like to encourage more and better lacemaking, not laborious French sewing. I almost see spending a lot of time on attaching a piece of lace to a piece of fabric as something that poses an obstacle to the greater goal, if we are to survive as a craft, of making more and better lace. At what point does the lace judge say, "this is the 21st century" and what would have been extremely important in the mid 19th is becoming irrelevant? Frankly, I am beginning to notice that most of the things I was raised to believe are important are now irrelevant. Devon proposing a radical concept **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
