Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Just because he studied them in the early 1800s I would think they started before quite a while before then. A question to the curator at the Lace Guild may well help. Or maybe look at Santina Leveys book, Lace, as she was at the V & A in London for many years. Although their lace collection is, I believe, in deep storage now, as well as the lace in Bedford Museum and Luton. Maureen E Yorks UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Devon, Thank you for correcting this. I am away from my books at the moment. It makes much more sense that he studied the point ground laces in the early 1800s, when there is no question they were made. Another sample of disinformation in some of the old articles. Karen - in sunny and cool Delaware - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
This topic is covered in Lace Machines and Machine Laces by Pat Earnshaw, p. 66 and p. 67. This claims that John Heathcoat was born in 1783 (not 1732!) and died in 1861. The first warp frame making marketable net, which resembled knitting, was made in 1795 when Heathcoat was 12. He seems to have registered some variation on the warp frame in 1804 (when he was 21). Then he started studying the movements of the Northamptonshire bobbin lacemakers and invented the machine that copied point ground in 1808. So, I would say that this is entirely consistent with our discussion of point ground. Devon Sent from Mail for Windows 10 - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Lorelei, I agree completely. I have never read anywhere that the lace made in Buckingham in 1750 was point ground. What made me pause on this article was that Mr. Heathcoat supposedly learned to make lace from the Buckingham lace makers around 1753 and imitated the point ground on his Loughborough machine. But the machine was not made until 1809, and we know that point ground was made before that. So could he have tried, unsuccessfully, to imitate other grounds, like Mechlin, earlier? and not until the point ground was made by hand could he make it by machine? Also, we have no idea what background Mr. Smiles had for writing his article in 1859. As usual, more questions than answers. - âKarenâ - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Karen The problem is that we donât know what the lace made in Buckingham in 1753 looked like. Our discussion of names of laces has pointed out that some names refer to geographic regions but have nothing to do with the structure created or the techniques used. We need some kind of external evidence of what that lace looked like. Lorelei From: Karen Thompson [mailto:karenhthomp...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:27 PM To: Lorelei Halley Cc: devonth...@gmail.com; Nancy Neff ; Arachne Subject: Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Thank you for the comments on the point ground. Hopefully there will be more. As Devon and Lorelei say, it makes sense that due to fashion changes in the late 1700s to much simpler and lighter laces and clothes in general, the point ground provided a lighter background for the motifs. At the same time it was also quicker to make. Point ground is also the ground that was imitated on the early twist net lace machines. By looking online I found this when searching for John Heathcoat, lace machine. http://victorianweb.org/technology/inventors/heathcoat.html Here we can read that John Heathcoat at the age of 21, in 1753, 'laboured to compass the contrivance of a twist traverse-net machine. He first studied the art of making the Buckingham or pillow-lace by hand, with the object of effecting the same motions by mechanical means'. From Samuel Smile's Self-Help (1859). If this is true, lace makers in Buckingham made point ground lace in 1753. It would be great to ascertain this from other sources. Mr Heathcoat's fist successful lace machine making bobbin net was set up in 1809. -Karen - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
I agree with Devon Lorelei -Original Message- From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of devonth...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:33 PM To: Nancy Neff ; Karen Thompson ; Arachne Subject: RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces Dear Karen, It would not seem that it would be that hard to find out something like this, yet I have been looking in my books for confirmation of my gut feeling about it, and am surprised at how difficult it is to verify. My gut feeling is that it arose in the last two decades of the 18th century when the motifs had shrunk to teeny tiny little flowers and borders. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Karen I understand your question. My impression is also that point ground began in the late 1700s. We have paintings of Empress Josephine wearing lace of a style similar to these. Laces with that style sometimes used point ground and sometimes Mechlin ground. Once we get past that style Mechlin ground disappears, until the Revival Era around 1900. This page in my website has photos of laces from Josephine's time. http://lynxlace.com/bobbinlacenapoleonic.html https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/17/6b/9c/176b9c555e136a1c3978207c1 654467b.jpg Most of the motivation for inventing point ground was that it is faster to work than Mechlin or kat stitch. And that motivation goes with the world of the 1800s Lorelei -Original Message- From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of Karen Thompson Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:36 PM To: Arachne Subject: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation can continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date (approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come is late in the 1700s. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Karen, we found the same thing with the Tønder samples. Many of the museum samples had been actually glued to boards at some point! One piece in particular that was only about 1/2 " wide by about 5 " long measured 5 different angles! So it's really hard to determine what the 'real' angles might have been. I would love to see what you come up with though on the point ground issue! Take care and talk to you soon. bobbi -Original Message- From: Karen Thompson Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:55 PM To: Nancy Neff Cc: Arachne Subject: Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces The angles of the samples are anywhere from about 33 to 68, sometimes in the same piece! Some of this might be due to distortion of the samples between being made in 1789 and being mounted on acid-free board in the 1970s or 1980s at the Library of Congress. Or the prickings might have been distorted by having been copied a number of times - or from the snippet of lace they made the pricking from. -Karen - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
The angles of the samples are anywhere from about 33 to 68, sometimes in the same piece! Some of this might be due to distortion of the samples between being made in 1789 and being mounted on acid-free board in the 1970s or 1980s at the Library of Congress. Or the prickings might have been distorted by having been copied a number of times - or from the snippet of lace they made the pricking from. -Karen - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Dear Karen, It would not seem that it would be that hard to find out something like this, yet I have been looking in my books for confirmation of my gut feeling about it, and am surprised at how difficult it is to verify. My gut feeling is that it arose in the last two decades of the 18th century when the motifs had shrunk to teeny tiny little flowers and borders. In looking for this, the first problem is that the term âpoint groundâ does not come up in my various identification and history books. Instead I am substituting Tulle, Lille, fond simple and fond clair. Regarding Lille, Gwyne, The Illustrated Dictionary of Lace, says, âA continuous bobbin lace with a Fond Simple ground (Bobbin Ground C, page. 198), adopted from late C18. A larger mesh was used from 1803. The Cloth stitch designs were outlined with coarse flat gimp. The toile of the laces in C 18 was mainly gimp, with very little cloth stitch in the design. There is more, but, interestingly part of it reads, âThe laces of Buckinghamshire, England, are thought to have been copies of Lille designs and technique, brought to England by refugees. The difference between these two laces is not easy to detect, but the Lille deisgns are smaller than tose of Buckinghamshire, and possibly a fraction more âfinger likeâ. Nevertheless they are virtually indistinguishable.â Devon - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces
Hi Karen, What are the angles of the grounds in the Ipswich lace samples? Nancy Connecticut, USA On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Karen Thompson wrote: > It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about > Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation > can continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date > (approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come > is late in the 1700s. Of the 22 Ipswich lace samples made in Massachusetts > between 1789 and 1790 and preserved at the Library of Congress, only one of > them employ point ground, and that is as a filling. Most of the grounds are > Paris ground/Kat stitch or some version of Torchon, including honeycomb. My > guess is that point ground was fairly new, but one of the lace makers > figured out how to make it from a snippet of imported lace. Any help will > be greatly appreciated. > > -Karen - usually in Washington, DC or Delaware > > - > To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: > unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to > arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/ > - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Lace: Point ground laces
It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation can continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date (approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come is late in the 1700s. Of the 22 Ipswich lace samples made in Massachusetts between 1789 and 1790 and preserved at the Library of Congress, only one of them employ point ground, and that is as a filling. Most of the grounds are Paris ground/Kat stitch or some version of Torchon, including honeycomb. My guess is that point ground was fairly new, but one of the lace makers figured out how to make it from a snippet of imported lace. Any help will be greatly appreciated. -Karen - usually in Washington, DC or Delaware - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/