RE: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
HENRY VIII On Mon, 22 Mar 2010, Sue Harvey wrote: I was lucky enough to get a couple of photos of Henry VIII and did notice that the front of his costumes seemed to be decorated with gold bobbin lace Hi Sue, you obviously had a wonderful day out at Hampton Court. Thank you for posting the photos. The costumes look splendid, and really bring the portraits to life. I think the goldwork may have been embroidery rather than lace on the original. Though, again going by contemporary portraits, gold lace and bobbin-made braids were around before the white linen laces came to England. Very little actual lace survives from this (or any other) period because the valuable gold could be melted down and used again. LADY JANE GREY On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, Elizabeth Ligeti wrote: I have seen a photo of a painting where Lady Jane Grey certainly had narrow torchon-type lace around her cuffs Hi Liz, I'm intrigued to know what Portrait you are referring to. There aren't that many, and most (if not all) are later copies rather than strictly contemporary. The National Portrait Gallery in London has recently put on display a painting newly identified as Jane Grey, but even that was painted 40 years after her death. It has no lace - just a little embroidery at the neck and cuffs. Bridget Marrow, in Pinner, Middlesex. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] The Tudors - costumes
In message snt127-w5443a5f5546d1c79a5ce42ba...@phx.gbl, Bridget Marrow
bridgetmar...@msn.com writes
HENRY VIII
The costumes look splendid, and really bring the portraits to life. I
think the goldwork may have been embroidery rather than lace on the
original.
Some time ago I quoted a passage from J R Planché's book, A History of
British Costume - published by Charles Knight, London, 1836 - which is
based on contemporary reports of the costumes worn. The following quotes
are from this book.
'When Henry VIII met Anne of Cleves he was habited, according to Hall,
in a coat of velvet, somewhat made like a frocke, embroidered all over
with flatted gold of damaske, and other laces of the same going
traversewise, that the ground little appeared, and about this garment
was a rich guard or border, very curiously embroidered; the sleeves and
the breast were cut and lined with cloth of gold, and tied together with
great buttons of diamonds, rubies and orient pearles.' (pp 237-8)
(Hall - Union of the Families of York and Lancaster, Folio. London
1548-50)
But, I've just found another, earlier quote... Page 221, talking about
his father, Henry VII
'This sort of habit, however, was worn only by the nobility. In
Barclay's Ship of Fooles of the Worlde, printed by Pynson AD1508, may be
found several notices of the dress of the day. Mention is made of some
who had their necks
Charged with collars and chaines
In golden writhes, their fingers full of rings,
Their necks naked almost unto the raines,
Their sleeves blazing like unto a crane's wings.
And others are called on to come neare with their shirts bordered in
forme of surplois.
Shirts bordered with lace, and curiously adorned with needlework,
continued a long time in use amongst the nobility and gentry.'
Laces (note the s) are mentioned separately, in terms of use for
attaching slashed parts of sleeves together
'The elegant fashion of slashing makes its appearance about this
time.. the complete division of the sleeve into two or more pieces,
and their attachment to each other by means of points or laces through
which the shirt is seen puffed and protruding.'
which is why I think the lace bordering the shirt is different to the
laces (think shoe-type laces) joining the parts of the sleeves. Gold
network was used in under caps at this time. (p222).
Lace is mentioned the chapter about Elizabeth - from the time of the
Armada in 1588 when she has a portrait painted, wearing a high-standing
collar edged with lace and then mention of ruffs in a quote from a
document by Stubbs ('Anatomy of Abuses') clogged with gold, silver or
silk lace (p258)
But, lack of referral to lace prior to that date doesn't necessarily
mean that it wasn't being worn.
and then onto the gowns,
but if the whole garment be not of silk or velvet, then the same must
be layed with lace two or three fingers broad all over the gown; or if
lace is not fine enough for them, hesays they must be decorated with
broad gardes of velvet edged with costly lace
If I remember correctly (and I'm sure I'll be corrected otherwise!) lace
was being made in Spain before Katherine of Aragon came to England (ie
late 1400s), and it would therefore be likely that she would possess
lace, and maybe some of her ladies would know of its production. At this
time, Henry VII was still on the throne (until 1509). The much mentioned
pattern books - published in the 1560s (?) and saying that lace was
being made for some 25 years previous to that - puts a date around 1536,
when Elizabeth would have been about three years old - and Henry VIII
didn't die until 1547. Planché writes that fashions didn't change much
between Henry VIII and Elizabeth's reigns - possibly with the amount of
money needed for the various wars no-one could afford it! Also, how
skilful were the artists of the time in depicting lace as opposed to
embroidery? We depend a lot on portraiture, but can we be certain what
we are looking at?
Could the reason why the earlier writers described the needlework as
being curious be because they hadn't come across lace before and it was
as near a description as they could make, especially to needlelace?
--
Jane Partridge
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To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
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Re: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
Thank you, Jane! What an informative long post. I'm saving the most useful
posts in files, and yours is definitely one to keep!
Thanks again for the
work in putting all this together and out there for the rest of us.
Nancy
Connecticut, USA
From: Jane Partridge
jpartri...@pebble.demon.co.uk
To: lace@arachne.com
Sent: Mon, March 29, 2010
6:00:05 PM
Subject: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
In message
snt127-w5443a5f5546d1c79a5ce42ba...@phx.gbl, Bridget Marrow
bridgetmar...@msn.com writes
HENRY VIII
The costumes look splendid, and
really bring the portraits to life. I think the goldwork may have been
embroidery rather than lace on the original.
Some time ago I quoted a passage
from J R Planché's book, A History of British Costume - published by Charles
Knight, London, 1836 - which is based on contemporary reports of the costumes
worn. The following quotes are from this book.
'When Henry VIII met Anne of
Cleves he was habited, according to Hall, in a coat of velvet, somewhat made
like a frocke, embroidered all over with flatted gold of damaske, and other
laces of the same going traversewise, that the ground little appeared, and
about this garment was a rich guard or border, very curiously embroidered; the
sleeves and the breast were cut and lined with cloth of gold, and tied
together with great buttons of diamonds, rubies and orient pearles.' (pp
237-8)
(Hall - Union of the Families of York and Lancaster, Folio. London
1548-50)
But, I've just found another, earlier quote... Page 221, talking
about his father, Henry VII
'This sort of habit, however, was worn only
by the nobility. In Barclay's Ship of Fooles of the Worlde, printed by Pynson
AD1508, may be found several notices of the dress of the day. Mention is made
of some who had their necks
Charged with collars and chaines
In golden
writhes, their fingers full of rings,
Their necks naked almost unto the
raines,
Their sleeves blazing like unto a crane's wings.
And others are
called on to come neare with their shirts bordered in forme of surplois.
Shirts bordered with lace, and curiously adorned with needlework, continued a
long time in use amongst the nobility and gentry.'
Laces (note the s) are
mentioned separately, in terms of use for attaching slashed parts of sleeves
together
'The elegant fashion of slashing makes its appearance about this
time.. the complete division of the sleeve into two or more pieces, and
their attachment to each other by means of points or laces through which the
shirt is seen puffed and protruding.'
which is why I think the lace
bordering the shirt is different to the laces (think shoe-type laces)
joining the parts of the sleeves. Gold network was used in under caps at this
time. (p222).
Lace is mentioned the chapter about Elizabeth - from the time
of the Armada in 1588 when she has a portrait painted, wearing a
high-standing collar edged with lace and then mention of ruffs in a quote
from a document by Stubbs ('Anatomy of Abuses') clogged with gold, silver or
silk lace (p258)
But, lack of referral to lace prior to that date doesn't
necessarily mean that it wasn't being worn.
and then onto the gowns,
but if
the whole garment be not of silk or velvet, then the same must be layed with
lace two or three fingers broad all over the gown; or if lace is not fine
enough for them, hesays they must be decorated with broad gardes of velvet
edged with costly lace
If I remember correctly (and I'm sure I'll be
corrected otherwise!) lace was being made in Spain before Katherine of Aragon
came to England (ie late 1400s), and it would therefore be likely that she
would possess lace, and maybe some of her ladies would know of its production.
At this time, Henry VII was still on the throne (until 1509). The much
mentioned pattern books - published in the 1560s (?) and saying that lace was
being made for some 25 years previous to that - puts a date around 1536, when
Elizabeth would have been about three years old - and Henry VIII didn't die
until 1547. Planché writes that fashions didn't change much between Henry VIII
and Elizabeth's reigns - possibly with the amount of money needed for the
various wars no-one could afford it! Also, how skilful were the artists of the
time in depicting lace as opposed to embroidery? We depend a lot on
portraiture, but can we be certain what we are looking at?
Could the reason
why the earlier writers described the needlework as being curious be because
they hadn't come across lace before and it was as near a description as they
could make, especially to needlelace?
-- Jane Partridge
-
To unsubscribe
send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
unsubscribe lace
y...@address.here. For help, write to
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-
To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
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RE: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
Last summer I was lucky enough to win a weekend for 2 in Richmond with a trip down the Thames to the Hampton Court Flower Show I took my daughter with me and as we had a day on Sunday to ourselves we went to Hampton Court Palace not knowing that on that they had the whole day devoted to a celebration and re-construction of the Kings marriage to Kathryn (the last one) The costumes were magnificent and all the public were also invited to take part and were given costumes if they so wished, we declined due to the fact that it was a very hot day and the costumes were mostly made of velvet. I was lucky enough to get a couple of photos of Henry VIII and did notice that the front of his costumes seemed to be decorated with gold bobbin lace I have put some of the photos on my webshot harvey0541 if you want to have a look and give me your opinion. It was an absolutely lovely day and in the end we almost began to believe that it was actually happening on that day such was the atmosphere and acting and the fact that they involved everyone and we were stopped on one occasion by the lady acting as the sister of Kathryn to ask us if we had seen her pass this way, she spoke in old English and I found myself answering nay my lady, I have not seen her Sue M Harvey Norfolk UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
I was lucky enough to get a couple of photos of Henry VIII and did notice that the front of his costumes seemed to be decorated with gold bobbin lace I recall from the early 70s that there was a fabulous small museum in Stratford-upon-Avon which had life size wax figures of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I in the windows. Somewhere I have slides of those costumes, but can't recall off-hand whether there was any lace thereon. Anyone else know of this museum and if it's still there? David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] The Tudors - costumes
I haven't seen this year's installments, left off last year just at the Kathryn Howard stage, in the year 1540. The first early pattern books don't mention 'cutwork' until 1542 - and they were basically embroidery patterns. The first real reticella patterns didn't appear until the 1560's. There are no portraits of Henry or his wives or Edward or Mary wearing lace, in face Reticella doesn't even appear in portraits of Elizabeth until about 1575. So the fact that the series shows lace before 1540 is wrong. I like the series, the forms of the costums are basically accurate, but the embellishments go way beyond fact, especially for jewelry. Lace was probably made in England before the first wave of protestant immigrants in 1563, but it is very hard to trace. Thomas Fuller writing in 1662 says about bobbinlace: Modern the use thereof in England, not exceeding the middle of the reign of queen Elizabeth: let it not be condemned for a superfluous wearing, because it doth neither hide nor heat, seeing it doth adorn. Besides, though private persons pay for it, it stands the State in nothing; not expensive of bullion, like other lace, costing nothing save a little thread descanted on by art and industry. Hereby many children, who otherwise would be burthensome to the parish, prove beneficial to their parents. Yea, many lame in their limbs, and impotent in their arms, if able in their fingers, gain a livelihood thereby; not to say that it saveth some thousands of pounds yearly, formerly sent over seas to fetch lace from Flanders. Laurie - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
One of my all time favorit quotes. Thomas Fuller, The History of the Worthies of England, 1662 I see editions printed in 1662, 1744, 1811, 1840, 1841, 1963, 1965, 2007 Also look under Austin P. Nutall, who I think was an editor of some of the 19th c editions. Laurie - Original Message - From: Barbara bar...@pobox.com To: Laurie Waters lswaters...@comcast.net Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [lace] The Tudors - costumes Do you have the citation for the quote? It's excellent, and I talk about this when I do demos of early lace. Thanks, Barbara On 03/21/2010 7:54 AM, Laurie Waters wrote: I haven't seen this year's installments, left off last year just at the Kathryn Howard stage, in the year 1540. The first early pattern books don't mention 'cutwork' until 1542 - and they were basically embroidery patterns. The first real reticella patterns didn't appear until the 1560's. There are no portraits of Henry or his wives or Edward or Mary wearing lace, in face Reticella doesn't even appear in portraits of Elizabeth until about 1575. So the fact that the series shows lace before 1540 is wrong. I like the series, the forms of the costums are basically accurate, but the embellishments go way beyond fact, especially for jewelry. Lace was probably made in England before the first wave of protestant immigrants in 1563, but it is very hard to trace. Thomas Fuller writing in 1662 says about bobbinlace: Modern the use thereof in England, not exceeding the middle of the reign of queen Elizabeth: let it not be condemned for a superfluous wearing, because it doth neither hide nor heat, seeing it doth adorn. Besides, though private persons pay for it, it stands the State in nothing; not expensive of bullion, like other lace, costing nothing save a little thread descanted on by art and industry. Hereby many children, who otherwise would be burthensome to the parish, prove beneficial to their parents. Yea, many lame in their limbs, and impotent in their arms, if able in their fingers, gain a livelihood thereby; not to say that it saveth some thousands of pounds yearly, formerly sent over seas to fetch lace from Flanders. Laurie - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Subject: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
Any lace, except for the most primitive, is anachronistic for the Henry VIII period. Reticella was just beginning in Italy, but there is no evidence for it reaching England this early. The costumes for The Tudors are pure fantasy - like the series itself. Historical accuracy just doesn't come into it. Enjoy it for the sexy romp it is, but please don't confuse it with History! Bridget Marrow, in Pinner, Middlesex, where I've spent the first afternoon of Spring making lace in a sunny conservatory. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
Whenever I make lace in a public place, someone is curious about when bobbin lace was first made, and I trot out my story about King Henry VIII of England - that lace does not appear on portraits painted during most of his lifetime. His daughter, Elizabeth I, on the other hand, was painted many times prickly all around with lace. Then I always ask my audience if they know who Henry VIII was. I have asked little Inupiat boys from remote Alaska villages, I have asked city teenagers oozing pop culture, and now I have asked Navajo kids in dusty, worn-out cowboy boots this same question, and they have all answered Yes! with instant enthusiasm, He was the king of England with all the wives. By this time, the adults are interested too, and we all have a fun conversation about the dates of his reign and how they compare with the discovery and settlement of North America. Give it a try sometime. I would love to hear how the conversation develops in other parts of the world. A disclaimer: I'm not an art expert! I just love to have something to hang my dates on, and Henry VIII is very convenient, and entertaining too. And I love to look at art. I have looked carefully at the portraits that I have come across and I only remember once seeing one with a small amount of lace. Has anyone on this list seen contemporary portraits of Henry VIII with much lace? Sally Four Corners, New Mexico From: lswaters...@comcast.net To: lace@arachne.com CC: lswaters...@comcast.net Subject: [lace] The Tudors - costumes Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:54:31 -0600 I haven't seen this year's installments, left off last year just at the Kathryn Howard stage, in the year 1540. The first early pattern books don't mention 'cutwork' until 1542 - and they were basically embroidery patterns. The first real reticella patterns didn't - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] The Tudors - costumes
Dear Friends, Has anyone seen the new series called The Tudors tarring Jonathan Rhys-Meyers? I've been sitting through it for days now - enthralled. The costumes are magnificent, and so far I've only noticed 2 big mistakes:- - Thomas CRANMER's German wife had a lovely blouse of Battenberg Lace - In one scene Jane SEYMOUR had a very beautiful Bedfordshire lace collar - far too early for that. However, there have been some magnificent close-ups of gorgeous Reticella work. David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] The Tudors - costumes
David, you must be far behind us on television because I saw this whole marvellous series last year and I agree that the costumes were wonderful but unlike yourself did not spot the errors because I was too busy watching Jonathan Rhys-Mayers. Sue M Harvey Norfolk UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
