Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
Derrick; Well, since I am not sure who is your customer, the following answer may apply completely, partially or not at all. My assumption to think that the answer may apply to you is because of the phrase defense contractor. On a higher level, the problem you are facing is called Assurance: ground of confidence that a product perform as advertised. Within the United States, the policy is that products acquired by US Government Departments and Agencies must be subject to a standardized evaluation process (National Information Assurance Acquisition Policy, NSTISSP No. 11) The US government position is that there is room for both proprietary and open source software, and it is not going to say that open source is better than proprietary or vice versa. The important issue is obtaining assurance that the product performs securely and to obtain that assurance it rely on a standard evaluation/certification process. The simple (US only, at least) answer to your question is that you are free to use open source software in your project. So, when approaching your management the argument should be that the value of open source software must be and will be demonstrated via evaluation. off-line comment In other words: - To blatantly state that open source software is crap, is crap. It must demonstrated. - The fact that you paid for a software, it has certain license, or was written in house is not enough. Now, this also applies to open source software: - The fact that open source software can be examined by a large technical community do not satisfy the criteria either. Again, its value must be demonstrated. /off-line comment Of course, the answer may become more complex depending on the extend of your project. Regards; Enrique Vargas www.visecurity.com
How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
Just curious if anyone has any tips on convincing the corporate types that using software developed by the opensource community is a GOOD thing. I would love to be allowed to use all the OpenG tools and think that many in my group would also benefit from them. Also would like to use some of the labXML code developed on sourceforge. Problem is that I work for a big defense contractor that is not too keen about the idea of opensource. Have some paranoid individuals somewhere in the chain that think code developed on sourceforge is not reliable and shouldn't be trusted. Also have heard that in order for anyone in the company to use software downloaded from the internet the company has to have an agreement with the providing entity (company usually). Any help in this matter would be GREATLY appreciated!!! Thanks, Derrick p.s. Interesting that they don't believe the opensource software is good and yet they all love Synergy which is straight from sourceforge (synergy2.sourceforge.net).
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
You get what you pay for; if it's cheap or free it's crap. And some opinions fit into that category too, but it is best not to generalize ;-) One should always perform an evaluation of the tools (and advice) they are going to use, prior to using them. If they meet your standards and requirements then go for it. If not, you can always throw money at your problems (and pay someone to invent you a wheel). Largely, the price you pay for Open Source software is the time that it takes you to evaluate, learn how to use, and participate in the development of the software -- in that respect Open Source software is not free. But if you don't pay that price, then... (sometimes) you get what you pay for. Regards, -Jim PS - Have you read your NI Software License Agreement lately? Is your application authorized and will it be authorized tomorrow? OK, gotta run... I hear the helicopters circling :-)) Craig Graham wrote: Swinarsky, DJ Derrick (5453) @ IS wrote: Just curious if anyone has any tips on convincing the corporate types that using software developed by the opensource community is a GOOD thing. I would love to be allowed to use all the OpenG tools and think that many in my group would also benefit from them. Also would like to use some of the labXML code developed on sourceforge. Problem is that I work for a big defense contractor that is not too keen about the idea of opensource. Have some paranoid individuals somewhere in the chain that think code developed on sourceforge is not reliable and shouldn't be trusted. Also have heard that in order for anyone in the company to use software downloaded from the internet the company has to have an agreement with the providing entity (company usually). Any help in this matter would be GREATLY appreciated!!! rant I went down the same path about a year ago and gave up. Problems I encountered (and still do in different contexts); 1) You get what you pay for; if it's cheap or free it's crap. 2) If it wasn't written in-house, it's crap. 3) If the license doesn't state in one line of words of one syllable that there are no copyright, royalty or any other IP issues with the code no matter how you use it, it's crap. I disagree with all three points, but that's what I came up against and I've given up on it. With regards to point 3, I got quite an involved email from Jim Kring explaining what we could and could not do with OpenG. Didn't help- the response was that an email isn't legally binding. In another instance, Albert Geven offered to let me use some pretty useful code he'd done for saving and loading panel settings in a way that was resistant to datatype changes, control addition/removal etc. The conditions that were imposed on using that were unreasonable- I was expected to ask Albert to sign a waiver that no IP rights would be exercised on the code and fax it back to us so we could use the code he'd given me as a favour. I didn't see why he should have to mess about like that so I didn't do it. When someone sends you code in an email with permission to do with it as you please, it's a bit off to then start asking them to jump through hoops so they can help you out! Even though you have the source and so the included open-source stuff can be audited (and maintained) just as well as the in-house stuff, I wouldn't hold out hope on persuading the decision makers at your end. \rant
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
1) You get what you pay for; if it's cheap or free it's crap. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but, if they want to pay money for it, they can. (Give it as a donation to OpenG. ) What I am trying to say is that, AFAIK, the term free in the open source philosophy is not one of free of cost: Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software (from gnu.org) The fact that you can obtain the OpenG tools and code at no cost should then be an added benefit. If that do not make them confortable, then they can always pay for it. That is not in violation of the open source philosophy. (I am pretty sure Jim and the team of developers can use the money for the open source cause. I won't even mind if they decided to get some beer: their work is priceless, but that's just me.) Of course, I have no idea what is Jim's or the other OpenG developers' policy on receiving money. I am just thinking out loud. Regards; Enrique Vargas www.visecurity.com
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
Of course, I have no idea what is Jim's or the other OpenG developers' policy on receiving money. I am just thinking out loud. If you follow the Support this project link from OpenG.org http://sourceforge.net/donate/index.php?group_id=52435, you will see the following: Information provided (by this user or project's admin) about donations: Any money donated will go to maintaining the OpenG.org website and hosting group meetings. This costs approximately 1000 dollars (US) per year. If people would like money to go to the development of specific projects and/or features, please email me prior to donating funds. A full account of how funds are spent, will be made publicly available. Mostly, people contribute to projects that have (monetary or other) value to them and their projects. But, if people would like to pay for new features that are important to them and they would rather spend money than time, we are open to that idea as well. -Jim Enrique Vargas wrote: 1) You get what you pay for; if it's cheap or free it's crap. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but, if they want to pay money for it, they can. (Give it as a donation to OpenG. ) What I am trying to say is that, AFAIK, the term free in the open source philosophy is not one of free of cost: Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software (from gnu.org) The fact that you can obtain the OpenG tools and code at no cost should then be an added benefit. If that do not make them confortable, then they can always pay for it. That is not in violation of the open source philosophy. (I am pretty sure Jim and the team of developers can use the money for the open source cause. I won't even mind if they decided to get some beer: their work is priceless, but that's just me.) Of course, I have no idea what is Jim's or the other OpenG developers' policy on receiving money. I am just thinking out loud. Regards; Enrique Vargas www.visecurity.com
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
Craig Graham wrote: Rolf Kalbermatter wrote: No- the assumption is that someone else is liable if it goes pear shaped. If you buy a product and at some later date it doesn't do as advertised you can blame (perhaps also legally) the supplier. If it's open source, you can't. I think this isn't based on facts :-( I think I've never read a License Agreement which did not exclude liability completely. Even for products we pay for, there is normally a cluse that limits or excludes liability. Was Microsoft ever made liable for the cr*... ah, sh*... no THINGS they have done? And they made realy big things wrong which caused costs in the billions worldwide! I think that many Software companies would have to go Chapter 11, if they could be made liable for the things they have done wrong! Bye Marco
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
One other detail to think about. Are you intending to use this code for internal use only? If so, then why should anyone care how you get your code? I work for a large defense contractor as well, and no one seems to mind as long as I get the job done and actually have all the source. (although perhaps mine is a case of It's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission. ;) If you are using it for a deliverable product, then it will ultimately come down to the attitude of the people who make these decisions. Rather than looking for a way to accomplish something, they will often look for all the reasons it CAN'T be accomplished. Too often, the mentality at large defense contractors is to 'er on the side of caution' - usually to the point of paranoia. And heaven forbid you should ever want to do something different than the way it was done before! (I could go on) Anyway, good luck in your effort! John Howard Test Engineer A Large Defense Contractor Jim Kring 04/14/04 08:11PM You get what you pay for; if it's cheap or free it's crap. And some opinions fit into that category too, but it is best not to generalize ;-) One should always perform an evaluation of the tools (and advice) they are going to use, prior to using them. If they meet your standards and requirements then go for it. If not, you can always throw money at your problems (and pay someone to invent you a wheel). Largely, the price you pay for Open Source software is the time that it takes you to evaluate, learn how to use, and participate in the development of the software -- in that respect Open Source software is not free. But if you don't pay that price, then... (sometimes) you get what you pay for. Regards, -Jim PS - Have you read your NI Software License Agreement lately? Is your application authorized and will it be authorized tomorrow? OK, gotta run... I hear the helicopters circling :-)) Craig Graham wrote: Swinarsky, DJ Derrick (5453) @ IS wrote: Just curious if anyone has any tips on convincing the corporate types that using software developed by the opensource community is a GOOD thing. I would love to be allowed to use all the OpenG tools and think that many in my group would also benefit from them. Also would like to use some of the labXML code developed on sourceforge. Problem is that I work for a big defense contractor that is not too keen about the idea of opensource. Have some paranoid individuals somewhere in the chain that think code developed on sourceforge is not reliable and shouldn't be trusted. Also have heard that in order for anyone in the company to use software downloaded from the internet the company has to have an agreement with the providing entity (company usually). Any help in this matter would be GREATLY appreciated!!! rant I went down the same path about a year ago and gave up. Problems I encountered (and still do in different contexts); 1) You get what you pay for; if it's cheap or free it's crap. 2) If it wasn't written in-house, it's crap. 3) If the license doesn't state in one line of words of one syllable that there are no copyright, royalty or any other IP issues with the code no matter how you use it, it's crap. I disagree with all three points, but that's what I came up against and I've given up on it. With regards to point 3, I got quite an involved email from Jim Kring explaining what we could and could not do with OpenG. Didn't help- the response was that an email isn't legally binding. In another instance, Albert Geven offered to let me use some pretty useful code he'd done for saving and loading panel settings in a way that was resistant to datatype changes, control addition/removal etc. The conditions that were imposed on using that were unreasonable- I was expected to ask Albert to sign a waiver that no IP rights would be exercised on the code and fax it back to us so we could use the code he'd given me as a favour. I didn't see why he should have to mess about like that so I didn't do it. When someone sends you code in an email with permission to do with it as you please, it's a bit off to then start asking them to jump through hoops so they can help you out! Even though you have the source and so the included open-source stuff can be audited (and maintained) just as well as the in-house stuff, I wouldn't hold out hope on persuading the decision makers at your end. \rant
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
Subject: Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage? From: Jim Kring [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:11:49 -0700 PS - Have you read your NI Software License Agreement lately? Is your application authorized and will it be authorized tomorrow? OK, gotta run... I hear the helicopters circling :-)) :)
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
Rolf Kalbermatter wrote: Swinarsky, DJ Derrick (5453) @ IS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, so the assumption is that software like LabVIEW from NI or Windows or whatever from MS are reliable, while Open Source isn't? Talking about unbiased prejudice! No- the assumption is that someone else is liable if it goes pear shaped. If you buy a product and at some later date it doesn't do as advertised you can blame (perhaps also legally) the supplier. If it's open source, you can't. Of course, we have a problem with a product that's down to a bug in Windows. Specifically, under Windows2000 at least, the Windows Installer does not function if you have booted the system from something that appears removable- such as a compact flash card on an embedded system. So many things cannot be installed without jumping through hoops with drive images. Microsoft show no interest in fixing it and there's no way we can fix it ourselves. The problem showed up too far down the line to consider changing the OS so we're stuck with it indefinitely. -- Dr. Craig Graham, Software Engineer Advanced Analysis and Integration Limited, UK. http://www.aail.co.uk/
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
At 3:21 PM -0500 4/14/04, Swinarsky, DJ Derrick (5453) @ IS wrote: Problem is that I work for a big defense contractor that is not too keen about the idea of opensource. Have some paranoid individuals somewhere in the chain that think code developed on sourceforge is not reliable and shouldn't be trusted. And yet they're probably content to run LabView on Windows... the least secure and most bug-ridden OS available. Go figure... - andrew
Re: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
Swinarsky, DJ Derrick (5453) @ IS wrote: Just curious if anyone has any tips on convincing the corporate types that using software developed by the opensource community is a GOOD thing. I would love to be allowed to use all the OpenG tools and think that many in my group would also benefit from them. Also would like to use some of the labXML code developed on sourceforge. Problem is that I work for a big defense contractor that is not too keen about the idea of opensource. Have some paranoid individuals somewhere in the chain that think code developed on sourceforge is not reliable and shouldn't be trusted. Also have heard that in order for anyone in the company to use software downloaded from the internet the company has to have an agreement with the providing entity (company usually). Any help in this matter would be GREATLY appreciated!!! rant I went down the same path about a year ago and gave up. Problems I encountered (and still do in different contexts); 1) You get what you pay for; if it's cheap or free it's crap. 2) If it wasn't written in-house, it's crap. 3) If the license doesn't state in one line of words of one syllable that there are no copyright, royalty or any other IP issues with the code no matter how you use it, it's crap. I disagree with all three points, but that's what I came up against and I've given up on it. With regards to point 3, I got quite an involved email from Jim Kring explaining what we could and could not do with OpenG. Didn't help- the response was that an email isn't legally binding. In another instance, Albert Geven offered to let me use some pretty useful code he'd done for saving and loading panel settings in a way that was resistant to datatype changes, control addition/removal etc. The conditions that were imposed on using that were unreasonable- I was expected to ask Albert to sign a waiver that no IP rights would be exercised on the code and fax it back to us so we could use the code he'd given me as a favour. I didn't see why he should have to mess about like that so I didn't do it. When someone sends you code in an email with permission to do with it as you please, it's a bit off to then start asking them to jump through hoops so they can help you out! Even though you have the source and so the included open-source stuff can be audited (and maintained) just as well as the in-house stuff, I wouldn't hold out hope on persuading the decision makers at your end. \rant -- Dr. Craig Graham, Software Engineer Advanced Analysis and Integration Limited, UK. http://www.aail.co.uk/
RE: How to talk my company into allowing OpenG usage?
I'm not really an expert to answer this question but I don't need to be, there are hundreds of others that have gone down your path before. Here is a link to dozens of documents that show the US government and other governments around the world are embracing the Open Source movement. Since the DOD already uses open source software then I'm sure your company would want to appear to be following in-line with the norm... ;) http://www.egovos.org/Resources Michael Aivaliotis http://mmwis.com http://forums.lavausergroup.org Problem is that I work for a big defense contractor that is not too keen about the idea of opensource. Have some paranoid individuals somewhere in the chain that think code developed on sourceforge is not reliable and shouldn't be trusted. Also have heard that in order for anyone in the company to use software downloaded from the internet the company has to have an agreement with the providing entity (company usually).
