Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

On 2018-03-14 16:52, Anthony Walter via Lazarus wrote:
Regarding changing the OS theme to change the application theme, in some 
cases this is undesirable.


I've made that argument over 12 years ago to the Lazarus team, and every 
few years after that. They shot me down every time. Initially I wanted 
to use LCL and Lazarus IDE for enterprise based commercial software. All 
my clients wanted own styled applications - separate from the OS. LCL 
couldn't deliver [and for some more reasons] I had to leave LCL behind. 
I then implemented a whole new toolkit (and partly for fun and learning) 
to accomplish cross-platform development with FPC and that allows 
individual applications to be fully themeable.


I'm glad to hear that LCL finally has some sort of themeing interface, 
but based on these discussions, I guess it is not working 100% for all 
LCL based applications. At least the project is heading in the right 
direction.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Juha Manninen via Lazarus]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 6:52 PM, Anthony Walter via Lazarus
 wrote:
> Regarding changing the OS theme to change the application theme, in some
> cases this is undesirable. For example some paint type programs, and even
> some code editors, use their own independent theme to subdue their interface
> making the work more prominent. In these types of situations it's not
> reasonable to retheme the entire OS, rather just retheme an individual
> application. And of course in these situations an application theme is often
> a matter of personal taste, so the actual styling should be externalized.
> What we're left with is the logical solution, to support application level
> user defined theme information in external styling files.

Ok, I understand.
I am not against such theming if somebody implements it.

Juha
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Anthony Walter via Lazarus]

Juha,

Thanks for the info about tree views. I had attempted to alter the theme on
Linux with Qt4 widgetset and a stylesheet argument on the command line and
I noticed the tree views were not taking on the styles I defined. I think
they probably need to be adjusted to respect system colors at the minimum.

Regarding changing the OS theme to change the application theme, in some
cases this is undesirable. For example some paint type programs, and even
some code editors, use their own independent theme to subdue their interface
 making the work more
prominent. In these types of situations it's not reasonable to retheme the
entire OS, rather just retheme an individual application. And of course in
these situations an application theme is often a matter of personal taste,
so the actual styling should be externalized. What we're left with is the
logical solution, to support application level user defined theme
information in external styling files.
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[zeljko via Lazarus]

On 03/14/2018 03:00 PM, Juha Manninen via Lazarus wrote:

On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 6:41 AM, AlexeyT via Lazarus
 wrote:

I made big work to theme scrollbars in CudaText.


TScrollBar is a native widget, isn't it? Why does it not follow the
native theme?


It follows native theme of the widgetset, but not eg color setted up 
from lcl (well, Qt can handle that but not for mswindows and cocoa 
themes). I think that Alexey wants to customize scrollbars (eg with 
different color), but he cannot do so with lcl TScrollbar which is 
native widgetset control. Same as you cannot set TBitBtn.Color under 
win32 ws.


zeljko
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Juha Manninen via Lazarus]

On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 6:41 AM, AlexeyT via Lazarus
 wrote:
> I made big work to theme scrollbars in CudaText.

TScrollBar is a native widget, isn't it? Why does it not follow the
native theme?

Juha
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Juha Manninen via Lazarus]

On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Anthony Walter via Lazarus
 wrote:
> As it stand Lazarus has already the ability to change the color of the
> source code editor, and some support for changing the object inspector
> colors, and message window colors, but all three of these customization
> systems operate independently of each other. Also there are many other tool
> windows whose colors or styles cannot be customized, such as the components
> list in the object inspector, the project manager, and elsewhere.
>
> An optimal solution would be to add a single IDE theme dialog allowing users
> controls the colors and default sizes of everything in the IDE. Items could
> be categorized in simple groups such as background color, text color/size,
> highlight color, border color/size, and so on. Color and size settings could
> be saved using a name, restored, and exported for others to use.
>
> I can think of a few ways this could be implemented, mainly through offering
> a hook into the Graphics unit to redefine custom values for system colors,
> and a flag to denote values have been overridden.

OI and other special IDE windows should indeed support theming. Now
they have fixed colors.
However LCL itself already supports theming because it maps to native
widgets. The native style + theme is used.
It means you should change a style for your entire desktop instead for
Lazarus alone.

LCL has some complex components like TreeView which are custom drawn
instead of native. Theming for them must be implemented using the
theme services already included in LCL.
Adding an external theme support for LCL apps sounds like a very bad
idea. It would combine the bad parts of a custom drawn and native
widget libraries.
Mapping to native widgets is a clear design decision which has both
pros and cons. Custom drawing everything is another design decision
with its own pros and cons.

Or, maybe there is something about this issue I don't fully understand.

Juha
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

On 2018-03-13 01:53, Anthony Walter wrote:
What's the compatibility level of your controls with LCL controls code 
wise?


fpGUI's controls can not be mixed with LCL controls. But the LCL-fpGUI 
implements a bridge between the two, making fpGUI controls behave like 
LCL developers are used to.



Also, what graphics API are you using for different platforms? For 
example have you implemented a common advanced graphics API bridging


Both. fpGUI v1.4.1 talks directly to the underlying OS platform's 
graphics API. That's Xlib for X11 based systems, GDI for Windows/WinCE 
etc. You as a developer don't need to worry about the differences, 
simply code using the TfpgCanvas class and the framework takes care of 
the rest. This also means fpGUI applications run pretty much everywhere 
without needing installations or megabytes of 3rd party libraries and 
DLL's (eg: Qt, GTK libraries are huge).


The "develop" branch of fpGUI does the same as before, but also has a 
new option... AggPas, which will become the default canvas and 2D 
rendering API. It is 100% platform independent, because it is 100% 
implemented in Object Pascal. And as I already mentioned in my other 
reply, it does anti-alias sub-pixel rendering as standard. It also has 
the ability to read TTF font files directly and thus incorporate high 
quality text rendering in the output too.



Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

On 2018-03-13 11:18, Anthony Walter via Lazarus wrote:
Regarding a long term solution, I agree that would be best. What I would 
see as the optimal way to handle this would be to use entirely owner 
drawn controls based which depend on external resource files, to 
determine styles such as color, sizes, padding, font, alignment, glyphs, 
and visibility among a few potential possibilities. Actual control 
drawing would be handled through an abstraction layer to a platforms 
best possible graphics API to efficiently handle antialiasing, 
smoothing, subpixel, and hdpi rendering in a manner that makes it 
complete transparent to controls.



hehehe... And everything you mentioned there is already supported in 
fpGUI. fpGUI is a 100% custom drawn toolkit, with no 3rd party library 
dependencies. It includes a 100% Object Pascal based 2D rendering engine 
(called AggPas) which does anti-aliasing, and high quality sub-pixel 
rendering. fpGUI already supports theming - via code or external image 
resources.


The only part lacking from your wish list, is the LCL-fpGUI widgetset 
implementation. A lot is already working, but it still needs a bit more 
work to get the Lazarus IDE to compile with LCL-fpGUI.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Michael Van Canneyt via Lazarus]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018, Anthony Walter wrote:


Michael,

I agree with you somewhat that my proposal isn't a total solution, but
perhaps there is another point of view to consider that has been
overlooked.

And that is this:

There ought to be a way to edit component properties sweepingly either in
an application or in the IDE.


Sounds rather hackish to me :)



I say this because I have often edited the Lazarus source to make remove
toolbar button captions, change edge borders, fix the position of edit
boxes, increase the height of a panel, turn on tool tips. or remove an
unneeded panel. All for the effort of adjusting layouts to make the IDE
space more efficient, fix what I see as a design problem, or create a
layout better suited to a personal taste.

Allowing anyone to easily make sweeping changes like these to the IDE, and
making those changes easily shareable and modifiable without the need to
search for the correct lfm, or pas file to edit and recompile the IDE would
be a good thing. That is, imagine being able to group alter properties of
controls/components within the IDE (or any application written with
fpc/laszarus), and see those changes instantly, and easily reverted,
without the need to search for files and rebuild.

As such I think that there is merit to such a tool. It might not need to be
branded as a "themer" or "skinner". Perhaps as a "property pattern editor"
or something thereof.


That would indeed be more aptly named :)



Regarding a long term solution, I agree that would be best. What I would
see as the optimal way to handle this would be to use entirely owner drawn
controls based which depend on external resource files, to determine styles
such as color, sizes, padding, font, alignment, glyphs, and visibility
among a few potential possibilities. Actual control drawing would be
handled through an abstraction layer to a platforms best possible graphics
API to efficiently handle antialiasing, smoothing, subpixel, and hdpi
rendering in a manner that makes it complete transparent to controls. This
would allow one code base for all controls for all platforms, solving not
only layout problems among different widget sets, but also behavioral
problems that creep into usage due to difference or restrictions of the
underlying native widgets.


I believe this is the aim of fpGUI and the customdrawn widgetset.
That is why I proposed extending them to the point of usability needed for
the IDE.



Of course, such a design should be completely optional to allow people to
continue using native controls whenever they want, but if they're
interested in a totally themeable and consistent usage applications across
all platforms, then using this alternate widget set would be a pleasant
second option.


Agreed.

My main concern is more "strategical":

Our time is limited (and by "our" I mean you too).

This "property pattern editor" - while it definitely has reasons for existing - 
will provide something halfway decent (because it can never do everything
required for proper theming), and will most likely divert attention/time 
from the root problem...


But it is obviously a free world, I can only point out a concern I see...

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Michael Van Canneyt via Lazarus]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Anthony Walter via Lazarus wrote:


Graeme, thanks for the feedback.

To everyone, I already have a plan for a basic theme system for all
platforms which I'll be publishing as a design time package soon. It will
work using text theme define files, and apply properties values to
everything in the IDE using a pattern matching system with groups. It will
search for published properties of all controls inside the IDE, changing
them to the values specified in the define file. It will also provide a
preview of changes to a select group of controls such that you can preview
a theme by clicking on its name from a list of available themes.


I don't think this is a good idea.

If you do this, then you're again offsetting a real solution by years by
providing a half-baked solution that maybe satisfies an itch you have now, 
but fails to provide a long-term solution.


So if you do intend to make an effort (and I realize it is one), 
please do it on a lower level, namely the LCL. That can mean making fpGUI

widgetset really usable for the IDE, or the customdrawn widgetset, or
something else.

But at least then all applications can benefit from the effort.

There is nothing wrong with having vision and a long-term plan.
But yes, it does take perseverance and resisting scratching an immediate itch.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Anthony Walter via Lazarus]

Graeme, I looked at some on your fpGUI screenshots and some are quite nice.

What's the compatibility level of your controls with LCL controls code
wise? Also, what graphics API are you using for different platforms? For
example have you implemented a common advanced graphics API bridging Cairo
on GTK, Direct2D on Windows, Quartz2D on OSX, and QPainter for KDE?
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Anthony Walter via Lazarus]

Graeme, thanks for the feedback.

To everyone, I already have a plan for a basic theme system for all
platforms which I'll be publishing as a design time package soon. It will
work using text theme define files, and apply properties values to
everything in the IDE using a pattern matching system with groups. It will
search for published properties of all controls inside the IDE, changing
them to the values specified in the define file. It will also provide a
preview of changes to a select group of controls such that you can preview
a theme by clicking on its name from a list of available themes.

The drawback to this approach is that some elements in certain toolkits
aren't themeable using strictly property values. Scrollbars are one example
already mentioned, but this problem also applies to some buttons, toolbars,
page tabs, and I'm sure a few other things. But I think this will the best
that can be hoped for given the current design of LCL controls.

I do have a plan to allow for theming of icons/glyphs inside the IDE,
including the menu, tree view, and component icons. All revertible of
course.

Finally, I believe the proper solution to a fully themeable IDE would be to
use custom painted controls for the entirety of the IDE. It wouldn't really
be that hard. I've coded my own tree view, list view, edits, buttons, menus
and such from scratch on a few platforms. It would be more portable as
well. It's just a bit tedious. If implemented it probably should use a more
advanced graphics subsystem that does not mimic plain old GDI/TCanvas. I'll
leave that someone else someday.
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus]

On 2018-03-10 03:41, Anthony Walter via Lazarus wrote:
Would someone consider adding or working on support to theme the entire 
Lazarus IDE? I've found myself quite fond of darker themed IDE, such as 
VS code:


Darker themed IDE example 



I like darker themes too - much easier on my eyes. Hence my eyes bleed 
[not really] when I look at Windows 10.


If somebody was to complete the LCL-fpGUI widgetset (so you can actually 
compile the IDE with LCL-fpGUI), then you could simply use the dark 
themes included with fpGUI and your solution is done. ;-)  fpGUI 
applications can apply application specific themes and not depend on 
desktop environments. They can be switched at runtime too.



For examples of those dark fpGUI themes, see the Carbon or Plastic Dark 
themes shown here:


   http://geldenhuys.co.uk/~graemeg/themes/start.html


I would imagine that the LCL-Qt interface could do the same, as that 
shouldn't depend on a desktop environment.  Or does it?


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Mattias Gaertner via Lazarus]

On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 22:41:19 -0500
Anthony Walter via Lazarus  wrote:

>[...]
> As it stand Lazarus has already the ability to change the color of the
> source code editor, and some support for changing the object inspector
> colors, and message window colors, but all three of these customization
> systems operate independently of each other. Also there are many other tool
> windows whose colors or styles cannot be customized, such as the components
> list in the object inspector, the project manager, and elsewhere.
> 
> An optimal solution would be to add a single IDE theme dialog allowing
> users controls the colors and default sizes of everything in the IDE. Items
> could be categorized in simple groups such as background color, text
> color/size, highlight color, border color/size, and so on. Color and size
> settings could be saved using a name, restored, and exported for others to
> use.

+1

 
> I can think of a few ways this could be implemented, mainly through
> offering a hook into the Graphics unit to redefine custom values for system
> colors, and a flag to denote values have been overridden.

What about the colors that have no counterpart in graphics?


Mattias
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[AlexeyT via Lazarus]

On 10.03.2018 18:53, zeljko via Lazarus wrote:
But again I've found scrollbars problematic since they look ugly when 
they're completely drawn by stylesheet :)


I thinked about how to replace LCL scrollbas with ATScrollbar. Ie some 
LCL change which hooks SetScrollInfo too. Maybe it's possible to create 
ATScrollbars instead of OS bars and change them by SetScrollInfo. And 
change ClientRect of control.


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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[zeljko via Lazarus]

On 03/10/2018 02:41 PM, Vojtěch Čihák via Lazarus wrote:

Hi,

you can do it for Qt applications, just run Lazarus (or any Laz. project 
built as Qt) as:


./lazarus -stylesheet mydarkstyle.qss

where mydarkstyle.qss must be valid Qt Style Sheet file, 
see: http://doc.qt.io/archives/qt-4.8/stylesheet.html#stylesheet


But again I've found scrollbars problematic since they look ugly when 
they're completely drawn by stylesheet :)


zeljko
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Vojtěch Čihák via Lazarus]

Hi,
 
you can do it for Qt applications, just run Lazarus (or any Laz. project built 
as Qt) as:
 
./lazarus -stylesheet mydarkstyle.qss
 
where mydarkstyle.qss must be valid Qt Style Sheet file, see: 
http://doc.qt.io/archives/qt-4.8/stylesheet.html#stylesheet
 
V.
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Od: Anthony Walter via Lazarus <lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org>
Komu: Lazarus mailing list <lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org>
Datum: 10.03.2018 04:41
Předmět: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support


I just wanted to put this idea out there, which I feel would bring significant 
pleasure to a lot of Lazarus users.Would someone consider adding or working on 
support to theme the entire Lazarus IDE? I've found myself quite fond of darker 
themed IDE, such as VS code:...If anyone has desire to communicate the 
pros/cons of this proposal (both of the concept and implementation) could you 
please it discuss here?

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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Anthony Walter via Lazarus]

Ralf, I believe your response was to to dark screenshot. I was hoping
people would not consider one particular style and judge customization one
that, but rather the idea of making customization of colors and size user
accessible.

Regarding completeness of custom colors and themes, yes some items may not
be easily themed, such as scrollbars. IMO though an attempt would not have
to 100% complete at that start. That is, creating an simplified way to
change some or most of the colors and size would be a good start.
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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Ralf Quint via Lazarus]

On 3/9/2018 7:41 PM, Anthony Walter via Lazarus wrote:
I just wanted to put this idea out there, which I feel would bring 
significant pleasure to a lot of Lazarus users.


Would someone consider adding or working on support to theme the 
entire Lazarus IDE? I've found myself quite fond of darker themed IDE, 
such as VS code:


Darker themed IDE example 




Oh, hell no!...

(sorry, but you asked)

Ralf


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Re: [Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[AlexeyT via Lazarus]

 >theme the entire Lazarus IDE?

Big problem with scrollbars: Treeviews, Listboxes, Listviews, Synedits. 
I made big work to theme scrollbars in CudaText.


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[Lazarus] Special Request: Theme entire IDE support

[Anthony Walter via Lazarus]

I just wanted to put this idea out there, which I feel would bring
significant pleasure to a lot of Lazarus users.

Would someone consider adding or working on support to theme the entire
Lazarus IDE? I've found myself quite fond of darker themed IDE, such as VS
code:

Darker themed IDE example


As it stand Lazarus has already the ability to change the color of the
source code editor, and some support for changing the object inspector
colors, and message window colors, but all three of these customization
systems operate independently of each other. Also there are many other tool
windows whose colors or styles cannot be customized, such as the components
list in the object inspector, the project manager, and elsewhere.

An optimal solution would be to add a single IDE theme dialog allowing
users controls the colors and default sizes of everything in the IDE. Items
could be categorized in simple groups such as background color, text
color/size, highlight color, border color/size, and so on. Color and size
settings could be saved using a name, restored, and exported for others to
use.

I can think of a few ways this could be implemented, mainly through
offering a hook into the Graphics unit to redefine custom values for system
colors, and a flag to denote values have been overridden.

If anyone has desire to communicate the pros/cons of this proposal (both of
the concept and implementation) could you please it discuss here?
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