RE: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Thank you to whoever started this conversation. I have learnt so much and it has made me think about how I want my locations to reflect my family history. I was raised in a place in NZ named Papatoetoe (general incorrectly pronounced papa towee). Once I started doing family research I found it was originally called Papatoitoi (toi (pronounced toy) is a native grass). I had been so busy making my locations match the NZ post office standards I lost sight of what this was all about. I will revisit and correct and based my addresses on their moment in history. I'm still considering if I will write my address left to right or right to left (country in first or last position).Everyone's responses has made me think but Barry your answer made it click. Thank youOlwyn Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 18:35:22 -0800 From: b_goodbee...@rogers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada To: legacyusergroup@LegacyUsers.com I have been thinking about the Location issue and have come to realize that there is no perfect solution. Using the terms Place in Events, Location in Citations and having the ability to add an Address with Postal Code to an Event adds to the confusion.The fact that we are recording information from a different time period when life was a lot simpler adds to the problem. I keep coming back to the fact that a fundamental fact of recording information from a time long ago is to record it as it was then and not to modify the details to fit into our current mode of doing things. Who would of thought we would have had postal codes and GPS's?As it relates to Census records, specifically England and Wales, I suggest that the Citation Details page be changed to reflect the information available from the Census record and not cherry pick in away that does not flow.My first suggestion after having completed the Source page identifying The National Archives as the source I would enter all the details of the Census into the Citation Detail window in this order.First I would identify the Census with the National Archives reference of PRO RG12 Piece Number 1200 Folio 30 Page 50 (eg). This is the information you need to identify the specific Census record.Second I would list the Location details starting with Administrative County, then Civil Parish, Ecclesiastical Parish, then County Borough,Municipal Borough or Urban District, then Ward of Municipal Borough or Urban Borough, then Rural District, then Parliamentary Borough or Division and lastly Town or village or Hamlet, all as listed at the top of the Census sheet. If this information is not complete it can be viewed on the Description of Enumeration District (ED 22 eg) sheet or from the present day transcriptions. Some of this information may not be relevant in today's thinking but it is important to record the information as it was then. Also be wary of transcriptions with mistakes!Next I would enter the Road, Street etc,and No or Name of the House.Note: Currently the information entered into the Location Details box does not appear in the Master Location listing.Then the person's ID with maybe relationship to Head of Household and marital status.All information should be recorded as shown on the Census sheet without any changes to spelling. Create an AKA if you wish but often there has been no change to the name other than the enumerator wrote down what he or she thought they heard. I'm sure a suitable Citation Detail template could be developed to satisfy the recording of the Census information in this manner. There is a template now so it must be possible.Other information such as age, occupation, where born or health condition can be recorded elsewhere within the Legacy software with reference to the appropriate Source.If a Location is required to appear in the Master Location listing then an Event/Fact needs to be created (Residence/Place eg), using poetic license as necessary if you wish it to be recognizable in today's maps or atlases. A note could be added to the Event to record the original information. Don't forget also things change and what existed 100 years ago might not exist today! Also bear in mind that the software default of Place, County, State, Country is not universal and may not meet your needs. Sorting from right to left mitigates this problem somewhat.As to the sharing of Sources the process really is sharing the Source and the Citation Details with the only thing changing is the person's ID. The person's ID is not shared. There is also an issue with a family sharing the same house with details spread over two pages each having two different NA references. Maybe I should stick with cut, paste and edit?This diatribe relates primarily to the 1851 to 1901 England and Wales Census but the underlying concept of recording any Source information should be that it should be recorded as is with no modifications. Any errors, spelling mistakes etc
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Hi Olwyn, Always write your location left to right from smallest element you choose to use through to country. Then you can set the Legacy locations to sort right to left or leave as sorted left to right. You can switch from one to the other in the Master Location list once you've said you want to sort right to left by putting in or taking out the tick in the Sort box. Some reports allow you to print locations right to left but mostly they'll print as you enter them and they read more naturally from smallest element to largest. I'm not sure how you'd enter an Address right to left or left to right as an Address has fields for the different elements so I think you are talking about locations. Cathy Olwyn Bourne wrote: Thank you to whoever started this conversation. I have learnt so much and it has mad e me think about how I want my locations to reflect my family history. I was raised in a place in NZ named Papatoetoe (general incorrectly pronounced papa towee). Once I started doing family research I found it was originally called Papatoitoi (toi (pronounced toy) is a native grass). I had been so busy making my locations match the NZ post office standards I lost sight of what this was all about. I will revisit and correct and based my addresses on their moment in history. I'm still considering if I will write my address left to right or right to left (country in first or last position). Everyone's responses has made me think but Barry your answer made it click. Thank you Olwyn Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 18:35:22 -0800 From: b_goodbee...@rogers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada To: legacyusergroup@LegacyUsers.com I have been thinking about the Location issue and have come to realize that there is no perfect solution. Using the terms Place in Events, Location in Citations and having the ability to add an Address with Postal Code to an Event adds to the confusion. The fact that we are recording information from a different time period when life was a lot simpler adds to the problem. I keep coming back to the fact that a fundamental fact of recording information from a time long ago is to record it as it was then and not to modify the details to fit into our current mode of doing things. Who would of thought we would have had postal codes and GPS's? As it relates to Census records, specifically England and Wales, I suggest that the Citation Details page be changed to reflect the information available from the Census record and not cherry pick in away that does not flow. My first suggestion after having completed the Source page identifying The National Archives as the source I would enter all the details of the Census into the Citation Detail window in this order. First I would identify the Census with the National Archives reference of PRO RG12 Piece Number 1200 Folio 30 Page 50 (eg). This is the information you need to identify the specific Census record. Second I would list the Location details starting with Administrative County, then Civil Parish, Ecclesiastical Parish, then County Borough,Municipal Borough or Urban District, then Ward of Municipal Borough or Urban Borough, then Rural District, then Parliamentary Borough or Division and lastly Town or village or Hamlet, all as listed at the top of the Census sheet. If this information is not complete it can be viewed on the Description of Enumeration District (ED 22 eg) sheet or from the present day transcriptions. Some of this information may not be relevant in today's thinking but it is important to record the information as it was then. Also be wary of transcriptions with mistakes! Next I would enter the Road, Street etc,and No or Name of the House. Note: Currently the information entered into the Location Details box does not appear in the Master Location listing. Then the person's ID with maybe relationship to Head of Household and marital status. All information should be recorded as shown on the Census sheet without any changes to spelling. Create an AKA if you wish but often there has been no change to the name other than the enumerator wrote down what he or she thought they heard. I'm sure a suitable Citation Detail template could be developed to satisfy the recording of the Census information in this manner. There is a template now so it must be possible. Other information such as age, occupation, where born or health condition can be recorded elsewhere within the Legacy software with reference to the appropriate Source. If a Location is required to appear in the Master Location listing then an Event/Fact needs to be created (Residence/Place eg), using poetic license as necessary if you wish it to be recognizable in today's maps or atlases. A note could be added to the Event to record the original information. Don't forget also things change
RE: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Technically, every spot on earth is moving…ever so slowly. But in our lifetime, the measurable differences are so small. Here is Wikipedia’s answer: The surface layer of the Earth, the lithosphere, is broken up into several tectonic plates. Each plate moves in a different direction, at speeds of about 50 to 100 mm per year. As a result, for example, the longitudinal difference between a point on the equator in Uganda (on the African Plate) and a point on the equator in Ecuador (on the South American Plate) is increasing by about 0.0014 arcseconds per year. Now if your family file goes back 500,000 years, then your latitude and longitude coordinates have a problem. Otherwise, you’re OK. J Brian in CA which is sliding into the Pacific Ocean From: Ron Taylor [mailto:doit4...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 6:21 AM To: legacyusergroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada Can anyone provide a location that has changed its latitude and longitude? A good computer program can convert latitude and longitude to the location name for any time and for any language. This type of program is used often to reveal the definition of a code for a given time and place. Example...curriculum codes for college classes. In 1940, the code for Math 101 might be 1184 but in 2003 that same code at that college might be used for Physics 201. Perhaps even the college had a name change or is now located in a different jurisdiction. As long as it remains on the same piece of real estate, it does not matter if they spoke French in 1940 and German in 1942. It's still the same place. I often ask this question...What was the place we call Boston, Massachusetts called in 1680? Most locations have a similar naming problem over time and between languages but they are still at the same coordinates. Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Unless, of course, there's a major tectonic event (aka, Earthquake) in which case some ground shift can be quite huge g Even mudslides can move things around quite a bit as well as dams breaking - I'll never forget the Baldwin Hills dam giving way and bodies in the cemetery at the base of the dam were relocated quite some distance g. Sincerely, Sherry Technical Support Legacy Family Tree On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Brian L. Lightfoot br...@the-lightfoots.com wrote: Technically, every spot on earth is moving…ever so slowly. But in our lifetime, the measurable differences are so small. Here is Wikipedia’s answer: The surface layer of the Earth, the lithosphere, is broken up into several tectonic plates. Each plate moves in a different direction, at speeds of about 50 to 100 mm per year. As a result, for example, the longitudinal difference between a point on the equator in Uganda (on the African Plate) and a point on the equator in Ecuador (on the South American Plate) is increasing by about 0.0014 arcseconds per year. Now if your family file goes back 500,000 years, then your latitude and longitude coordinates have a problem. Otherwise, you’re OK. J Brian in CA which is sliding into the Pacific Ocean Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
I should live long! Jim Legacy Technical Support On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Brian L. Lightfoot br...@the-lightfoots.com wrote: Technically, every spot on earth is moving.ever so slowly. But in our lifetime, the measurable differences are so small. Here is Wikipedia's answer: The surface layer of the Earth, the lithosphere, is broken up into several tectonic plates. Each plate moves in a different direction, at speeds of about 50 to 100 mm per year. As a result, for example, the longitudinal difference between a point on the equator in Uganda (on the African Plate) and a point on the equator in Ecuador (on the South American Plate) is increasing by about 0.0014 arcseconds per year. Now if your family file goes back 500,000 years, then your latitude and longitude coordinates have a problem. Otherwise, you're OK. J Brian in CA which is sliding into the Pacific Ocean Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
I've been to a few very large urban cemeteries in the past few years in which they've switched to GPS coordinates for grave locations. But not having at the time a GPS enabled phone or camera, I had to rely upon the old go to the curve in the road, then it’s the 3rd grave to the left of the big oak tree. Brian in CA -Original Message- From: Sherry/Support [mailto:she...@legacyfamilytree.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 1:39 PM To: legacyusergroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada Unless, of course, there's a major tectonic event (aka, Earthquake) in which case some ground shift can be quite huge g Even mudslides can move things around quite a bit as well as dams breaking - I'll never forget the Baldwin Hills dam giving way and bodies in the cemetery at the base of the dam were relocated quite some distance g. Sincerely, Sherry Technical Support Legacy Family Tree On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Brian L. Lightfoot br...@the-lightfoots.com wrote: Technically, every spot on earth is moving…ever so slowly. But in our lifetime, the measurable differences are so small. Here is Wikipedia’s answer: The surface layer of the Earth, the lithosphere, is broken up into several tectonic plates. Each plate moves in a different direction, at speeds of about 50 to 100 mm per year. As a result, for example, the longitudinal difference between a point on the equator in Uganda (on the African Plate) and a point on the equator in Ecuador (on the South American Plate) is increasing by about 0.0014 arcseconds per year. Now if your family file goes back 500,000 years, then your latitude and longitude coordinates have a problem. Otherwise, you’re OK. J Brian in CA which is sliding into the Pacific Ocean Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
On 02/11/2014 17:21, ronfergy@tiscali.co.uk wrote: England is: England, County, Town, District/Parish. But note that the American geo-locators tell us otherwise. They are wrong. BTW, for a city it is England, City, District/Parish. And then there is the added complication of what constitutes a Parish. If you see on a Marriage Register entry that the groom or bride was a resident of St Mark's that will mean that the person resided within the ecclesiastical parish and there will be a Parish Church of St Mark situated in (or near) a village, town or city. On the other hand, on a Census Return you will see Civil Parish and this may or may not bear the same name as an Ecclesiastical Parish which may be within, or partly within, the Civil Parish. The Civil Parish may well bear the name of a village which is included in it, but many of the people enumerated will actually be resident in a different included village. My solution to this is to enter full addresses (as far as I know them) in the Location field and write whatever I am seeing, unless I KNOW differently. For example, in a Census I might see that someone lives at 1 The Street in the Civil Parish of Tranmere in the County of Cheshire. I KNOW that that road is/was actually in an area of Birkenhead adjacent to Tranmere and named Oxton, so I enter the Location as 1, The Street, Oxton, Birkenhead, Cheshire, England but in the Source Details I will put the Civil Parish as Tranmere. On the other hand, if I see the address on the Census is 1 High Street, West Piddle and I don't know whether that particular street is actually in the village of West Piddle or East Piddle then I will enter the location as !, High Street, West Piddle because that is what I am seeing. I hope that makes sense! -- Jenny M Benson Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
On 02/11/2014 17:26, gen_quest wrote: If you ony know the registration district from bmd indices then enter that followed by the county and country. Adding the county (and even the country) can be problematical. Many Civil Registration Districts incorporated Civil Parishes which were in adjacent counties. To take one example, the RD of Wrexham (Wrexham is and was in the Wales) included the sub-districts of Hope in Flintshire, Wales, Malpas in Cheshire, England and Ruabon in Denbighshire, Wales. In order not to mislead or create confusion, I never include the County or Country in a Location which is just a Registration District. -- Jenny M Benson Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
On 04 Nov 2014 14:12, Jenny M Benson wrote: In order not to mislead or create confusion, I never include the County or Country in a Location which is just a Registration District. Me too! I also add RD at the end of the name to distinguish that it is a Registration District. So, Wrexham RD. -- Regards, Mike Fry (Jhb) Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
On 04/11/2014 15:09, MikeFry wrote: I also add RD at the end of the name to distinguish that it is a Registration District. So, Wrexham RD. I use Wrexham Registration District as the long form and Wrexham RD as the short form. -- Jenny M Benson Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
In order not to mislead or create confusion, Wow, the place names within England have my American brain swirling. I am so glad that I have only a few such entries in my family file to deal with and am reminded that the United States and England are two countries separated by a common language. Brian in Californiashire -Original Message- From: Jenny M Benson [mailto:ge...@cedarbank.me.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 4:13 AM To: legacyusergroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada On 02/11/2014 17:26, gen_quest wrote: If you ony know the registration district from bmd indices then enter that followed by the county and country. Adding the county (and even the country) can be problematical. Many Civil Registration Districts incorporated Civil Parishes which were in adjacent counties. To take one example, the RD of Wrexham (Wrexham is and was in the Wales) included the sub-districts of Hope in Flintshire, Wales, Malpas in Cheshire, England and Ruabon in Denbighshire, Wales. In order not to mislead or create confusion, I never include the County or Country in a Location which is just a Registration District. -- Jenny M Benson Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Hi Jenny. You kinda lost me on that explanation. Do you mean that if you are not sure of the country (i.e., Wales or England?), you just don't put the country in your place name field at all? I'm confused, but since sort order is paramount to me, if I had two choices for country, I guess I would choose one and opt for an alternate place name with the other country, with appropriate notations. Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying. Jerry Boor, MerriamFamilyTree.org On 11/4/2014 7:12 AM, Jenny M Benson wrote: On 02/11/2014 17:26, gen_quest wrote: If you ony know the registration district from bmd indices then enter that followed by the county and country. Adding the county (and even the country) can be problematical. Many Civil Registration Districts incorporated Civil Parishes which were in adjacent counties. To take one example, the RD of Wrexham (Wrexham is and was in the Wales) included the sub-districts of Hope in Flintshire, Wales, Malpas in Cheshire, England and Ruabon in Denbighshire, Wales. In order not to mislead or create confusion, I never include the County or Country in a Location which is just a Registration District. Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Jenny, I also think that it is better not to use the abbreviated RD in the full name to avoid confusion with Rural Districts e.g. Chapel-en-le-Frith Rural District. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ Jenny M Benson ge...@cedarbank.me.uk wrote: On 04/11/2014 15:09, MikeFry wrote: I also add RD at the end of the name to distinguish that it is a Registration District. So, Wrexham RD. I use Wrexham Registration District as the long form and Wrexham RD as the short form. -- Jenny M Benson Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
I missed that if anyone was saying you *must* do it a certain way. But I will say this unequivocally: If you expect to get a decent alphabetical sorting mechanism for the place name divisions you use in reports, then you*/_must be consistent with whatever divisions you decide_/*. The standard for the United States and Canada (city, county, state or province, country) -- or the reverse if sorting right to left -- does work well enough for us, even in Europe. For example, are not the .shires in England roughly equivalent to our counties, or close enough to use the county position for the ...shires? Jerry Boor, MerriamFamilyTree.org On 11/4/2014 1:58 PM, CE WOOD wrote: Locations throughout Europe are a problem. Normandy, Anjou, Burgundy, Aquitaine, et alia, were all separate countries at one time. Italy, Spain, the Holy Roman Empire are even more confusing! The Norse countries, Lorraine, Alsace, Bavaria, Flanders. I could go on, but the point is boundaries change all the time - even now. Whether you add France to Alsace, whether you add Germany to Alsace, whether you keep it as a separate country, or whatever, is *_your_ *choice. What you put in France today was once its own country, part of another country, part of a no longer existing kingdom, or whatever. Computer programs do not accommodate political shifts. CE From: bearjerca...@gmail.com To: legacyusergroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 12:41:32 -0500 Hi Jenny. You kinda lost me on that explanation. Do you mean that if you are not sure of the country (i.e., Wales or England?), you just don't put the country in your place name field at all? I'm confused, but since sort order is paramount to me, if I had two choices for country, I guess I would choose one and opt for an alternate place name with the other country, with appropriate notations. Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying. Jerry Boor, MerriamFamilyTree.org On 11/4/2014 7:12 AM, Jenny M Benson wrote: On 02/11/2014 17:26, gen_quest wrote: If you ony know the registration district from bmd indices then enter that followed by the county and country. Adding the county (and even the country) can be problematical. Many Civil Registration Districts incorporated Civil Parishes which were in adjacent counties. To take one example, the RD of Wrexham (Wrexham is and was in the Wales) included the sub-districts of Hope in Flintshire, Wales, Malpas in Cheshire, England and Ruabon in Denbighshire, Wales. In order not to mislead or create confusion, I never include the County or Country in a Location which is just a Registration District. Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
On 04 Nov 2014 22:57, Jerry wrote: For example, are not the .shires in England roughly equivalent to our counties, or close enough to use the county position for the ...shires? No. More akin to States. Parishes are akin to US Counties. -- Regards, Mike Fry (Jhb) Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Jerry, No, our counties are NOT close to yours - we do not have states, so a , , is wrong. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Following Ron Ferguson's comment, and to possibly add to the confusion, here in New Zealand the non-urban areas are serviced by NZ Post and their addressing standards require RD followed by its number,mail town and post code. e.g. 999 Any Street, *RD 99, Anytown *. However NZ Post have only been providing this service for about 150 years so earlier addresses will no mention the RD number!!! John Groome On 5 November 2014 07:07, ronfergy@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Jenny, I also think that it is better not to use the abbreviated RD in the full name to avoid confusion with Rural Districts e.g. Chapel-en-le-Frith Rural District. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ Jenny M Benson ge...@cedarbank.me.uk wrote: On 04/11/2014 15:09, MikeFry wrote: I also add RD at the end of the name to distinguish that it is a Registration District. So, Wrexham RD. I use Wrexham Registration District as the long form and Wrexham RD as the short form. -- Jenny M Benson Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Christine, England is: England, County, Town, District/Parish. But note that the American geo-locators tell us otherwise. They are wrong. BTW, for a city it is England, City, District/Parish. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ Chris Clifford ccliff...@pmcnet.ca wrote: I am getting confused about entering place names for countries other than the United States. About 95% of my ancestors are from England, the remainder from Canada. Do the same rules apply here for these countries and do I need to add the comma(s) for unknown fields in order for searches to work properly? Should every place name have four fields? For instance, in England, would the order be City, Parish, County, Country? I have tried using a gazetteer, but only districts are mentioned, not parishes. Would I use the district name instead? There are no parishes or counties for my Canadian place names and so do I leave that field blank and add a comma? Or should I use community boundaries, for instance, St. Boniface [community], Winnipeg [city], Manitoba [ province], Canada [country], the order being smallest to largest? I thought I had this straight in my head, but find I am becoming more and more confused as I edit my tree and I am concerned that I may be entering everything wrong. Thanks for any suggestions. Christine Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
There is no right or wrong way to enter locations. To make use of all the sorting options in Legacy, you do need to use four places or replace missing ones with extra commas. Many Legacy users do not adhere to such strictures, using fewer or more than four places in their locations. You can still sort from left to right or from right to left, but cannot sort by county, for example. Also, there are many locations in the US which do not have four places in their legal locations, and have the same problem. There are probably hundreds of posts about this in the archives, with passionate opinions and nasty personal attacks on promoters of one option or the other. But then, all lists have posters who do not like it when someone disagrees with them. Only you can decide if you need to sort locations in more than the L to R and R to L options. Legacy's great advantage over other programs is the ability to use it the way you want to use it. That being said, some of the bells and whistles may not work if you do not use it exactly as it has been structured, something that is especially true with sorting functions. Only you can decide if you need to sort locations in more than the L to R and R to L options. CE From: ccliff...@pmcnet.ca To: legacyusergroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 09:27:05 -0600 I am getting confused about entering place names for countries other than the United States. About 95% of my ancestors are from England, the remainder from Canada. Do the same rules apply here for these countries and do I need to add the comma(s) for unknown fields in order for searches to work properly? Should every place name have four fields? For instance, in England, would the order be City, Parish, County, Country? I have tried using a gazetteer, but only districts are mentioned, not parishes. Would I use the district name instead? There are no parishes or counties for my Canadian place names and so do I leave that field blank and add a comma? Or should I use community boundaries, for instance, St. Boniface [community], Winnipeg [city], Manitoba [ province], Canada [country], the order being smallest to largest? I thought I had this straight in my head, but find I am becoming more and more confused as I edit my tree and I am concerned that I may be entering everything wrong. Thanks for any suggestions. Christine Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
Christine,I am in the same situation as you with most ancestors in England. You
just need to enter city, county and country. Many of us also place the street
address in the location field. If you only know the country and country don't
worry about inserting commas for the missing info. If you ony know the
registration district from bmd indices then enter that followed by the county
and country. Bear in mind that counties and registration districts have
changed over time.Hope this helpsChristine
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 11:45 AM, Chris Clifford ccliff...@pmcnet.ca
wrote:
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div.yiv7172989408Section1 {}--I am getting confused about entering place names
forcountries other than the United States . About 95% of my ancestors arefrom
England , the remainderfrom Canada . Do the same rules apply here for these
countries and do I need to add the comma(s)for unknown fields in order for
searches to work properly? Should everyplace name have four fields? For
instance, in England , would the order be City,Parish, County, Country? I have
tried using a gazetteer, but onlydistricts are mentioned, not parishes. Would
I use the district nameinstead? There are no parishes or counties for my
Canadian place namesand so do I leave that field blank and add a comma? Or
should I use communityboundaries, for instance, St. Boniface [community],
Winnipeg [city], Manitoba [province], Canada [country], the order being
smallest to largest? Ithought I had this straight in my head, but find I am
becoming more and moreconfused as I edit my tree and I am concerned that I may
be entering everythingwrong. Thanks for any suggestions. Christine
Legacy User Group guidelines:
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Re: [LegacyUG] Rules for Entering Place Names in England and Canada
On 02 Nov 2014 17:27, Chris Clifford wrote: I am getting confused about entering place names for countries other than the United States. About 95% of my ancestors are from England, the remainder from Canada. Do the same rules apply here for these countries and do I need to add the comma(s) for unknown fields in order for searches to work properly? Should every place name have four fields? For instance, in England, would the order be City, Parish, County, Country? I have tried using a gazetteer, but only districts are mentioned, not parishes. Would I use the district name instead? There are no parishes or counties for my Canadian place names and so do I leave that field blank and add a comma? Or should I use community boundaries, for instance, St. Boniface [community], Winnipeg [city], Manitoba [ province], Canada [country], the order being smallest to largest? I thought I had this straight in my head, but find I am becoming more and more confused as I edit my tree and I am concerned that I may be entering everything wrong. Thanks for any suggestions. Rule 1: forget any other rules. Rule 2: Don't use the GeoDatabase it's far too modern to be of much use when a lot of county boundaries have changed over the centuries Locations can have up to 9 parts. Use how ever many parts you need. Make sure you sort the list from right to left: largest unit to the smallest. Country, County, Town are the minimum parts you need. No need for any 'empty' parts (double commas) because that's largely a modern, artificial imposition for the USA that doesn't even meet the requirements for all parts of the States at all times in its' history, and which definitely doesn't suit other places in the world. Set up Registration Districts as separate locations. No need for a County, but you probably need a Country. Countries: Ignore Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Stick with the basic country names: England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland and Eire. -- Regards, Mike Fry (Jhb) Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
