date:20131021


On 10/21/2013 12:42 AM, Matt Wilkie wrote:
Highlighting some of the recent improvements with view-rendered and 
markdown would be useful for some of this crowd.
I think it should be noted that markdown support is preliminary at 
best.  I have a lot of work to do to promote it to the level of rst's 
support in Leo.


--Jake

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Todo.py plugin changes pushed

2013-10-21 Thread Terry Brown

I've just pushed some changes to todo.py, nothing fundamental, but if
these changes mess up anyone's workflow, let me know and I'll try and
wrap them in @settings.

 - date selection - custom calendar widget which displays multiple
   months at a time.  By default it shows the next three months, but
   you can control how many months are shown with todo_calendar_n and
   todo_calendar_cols, being the number of months shown and the number
   of columns in which they're shown respectively.

 - adjust due date by offset.  There used to be a control for this,
   then I moved it to apply to the next work date, now both dates, due
   date and next work date, can be adjusted with an offset control.

 - the third thing, which I can't remember

Please report problems / undesirable behavior with the multi month
widget.

Cheers -Terry

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Re: Todo.py plugin changes pushed

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Terry Brown terry_n_br...@yahoo.comwrote:

 I've just pushed some changes to todo.py,


Thanks for this work, Terry.

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 1:51:14 PM UTC-5, stevelitt wrote:
 

 I think the first step in getting this kind of review is to get more 
 fans who can write and who are listened to. To do that, you'd need to 
 give them enough of a burning desire to spend a few days learning the 
 ins and outs of Leo. I'll give you an idea how to do this later in this 
 email. 


Good point. 


 But first, I think Leo has an image problem. Mention Leo, and most 
 people say it's an outliner. If that's all Leo was, VimOutliner would 
 have eaten Leo's lunch years ago --- VimOutliner's faster and has the 
 90% of outlining features that people use 90% of the time. Not only 
 that, face the facts, 95% of the population will never believe they 
 need an outliner or that an outliner would do them any good, or that 
 outlining is a skill they need to bother to acquire.


Great comment.  I've been thinking about it ever since. See below.


 My understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Leo is a 
 mechanism by which you can specify a computer program as an outline 
 like thing in an outliner like setting, flip a switch, and bang, there's 
 your program. THAT'S what's going to hook people. 


Exactly right.  And that's what hooked me the instant I prototyped Leo 
using the MORE outliner!

Not sure why you said you can specify a computer program as an outline  
like thing in an outliner like setting.  Why not just say, write a 
computer program in an outline?  Is there some nuance I am missing?

So here's what to do. Make a 3 minute video showing how to compose an 
 application outline and turn it into a program. The program can be 
 trivially simple, but make the program as 2014 relevant as possible: A 
 web app would be nice. At the end of the video explain that although 
 this video's program was simple, Leo can be used to make arbitrarily 
 complex apps, and make them well.


I agree.  Something like this is urgently needed.  It won't happen this 
week though.  It's time to get the docs finished and Leo 4.11b1 out the 
door asap. 


 Publicize these videos, and you're going to get some journalists 
 excited, and those are your reviews.


A great strategy. 


 One more thing: Start publicizing different ways people use Leo. 
 Encourage them to write in with their unique uses, and publicize them. 
 I bet people are doing things with Leo you never dreamed of, and some 
 of those things might be the itch some journalist wants to scratch. 

 HTH, 


Ohhh yes, it helped.

As the direct result of your comments, I realized that I have been missing 
*the* easiest marketing opportunity: the announcement about Leo!  The first 
words of the announcement *must* list Leo's key benefits, and perhaps even 
say why Leo trumps Emacs org mode and vimoutline mode.  This is a major 
opportunity missed.  I'll correct it for the b1 announcement.

Edward

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Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

A few words, a few sentences, or a few paragraphs.

Focus on benefits, not features, but it's ok to mention features.

Thanks!

Edward

P.S. If you haven't done so recently, you might find Leo's quotes page 
inspiring:
http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#what-people-are-saying-about-leo

EKR

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

Well, Leo's impact on my life since I found it in January has been 
substantial.


Leo allows me to automate my life to a great extent.  It is my to-do 
list, my personal assistant, my address book, my password log, my recipe 
archive, my rss feed reader (due to rss.py), and my favored editor.  It 
partially powers my blog (along with git, ruby, and heroku), allowing me 
to create a new blog entry with one click and a bit of editing.  
Viewrendered (with markdown support!) has changed the way I write 
READMEs and blog posts.  On top of all of that, it has allowed to me to 
organize several disparate tabletop game design projects I have going, 
as well as my numerous writing projects.  Not to mention the impact it 
has on my ability to understand and decode large python projects!


But what really cinches all of this for me is how crazy extendable Leo 
is.  Script buttons in particular are an integral part of my daily 
workflow, allowing me to transform my productivity over the last 
month...  I'm now a thing-getter-doner, and I find much of it is due to 
the powerful core of Leo, plus scripting.py and todo.py.


--Jake Peck

On 10/21/2013 11:23 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:

A few words, a few sentences, or a few paragraphs.

Focus on benefits, not features, but it's ok to mention features.

Thanks!

Edward

P.S. If you haven't done so recently, you might find Leo's quotes page 
inspiring:

http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#what-people-are-saying-about-leo

EKR
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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

2013-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 07:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:


 Exactly right.  And that's what hooked me the instant I prototyped
 Leo using the MORE outliner!
 
 Not sure why you said you can specify a computer program as an
 outline like thing in an outliner like setting.  Why not just say,
 write a computer program in an outline?  Is there some nuance I am
 missing?

Hi Edward,

There are probably a million reasons I said it like that, but I think
the main one is my everpresent, brightly burning belief that a program
should be designed before its coded. Remember those guys, back in the
day, who after receiving their programming assignment, would go to the
keyboard and start pounding out C code? Remember their finished
product? Remember how long it took them to finally complete the project?

Meanwhile, when receiving an assignment, I'd spend hours to days with a
bunch of paper, drawing diagrams. By the time I sat down at the
terminal, I knew my data structures and algorithms. The hours to days
head start of the start coding immediately guys evaporated
because for me, coding was just a secretarial task, and I was
required to do less refactoring, or even worse, kludging. Later,
sometimes I'd substitute an outliner for the diagrams on paper; in the
days of functional decomposition, an outliner was the perfect fit.

Back to your question: If all I needed to do was WRITE a program, I'd
just sit down at a computer and start pounding out C or Python or Lua
or whatever. But that's not my style. I need to DESIGN a program, and
after all, a design is just a specification of how the program is going
to be written.

So it seems to me that I *design* the program on Leo, and then, when
the time comes, I flip a switch and Leo *writes* the program for me.
That's how I'd view what I've heard about Leo. (See note at the bottom
of this email for clarification)

As soon as I have free time, I'm going to do the Leo Hello World
program that Gatesphere recommended, and then I'll be able to express
myself better.

 Ohhh yes, it helped.
 
 As the direct result of your comments, I realized that I have been
 missing *the* easiest marketing opportunity: the announcement about
 Leo!  The first words of the announcement *must* list Leo's key
 benefits, and perhaps even say why Leo trumps Emacs org mode and
 vimoutline mode.  This is a major opportunity missed.  I'll correct
 it for the b1 announcement.

I'd be careful about making such assertions. For instance, Leo would
have a mighty long way to go to beat VimOutliner in speed of
transferring thoughts from mind to file. Org mode can design Docbook.
Many outliners have their niche. I'd view Leo's niche as designing
programs, and then flipping a switch and having Leo write them. That's
*huge*, and is only peripherally related to the fact that Leo can
function as an outliner.

==
NOTE: I know from reading that what really happens is that the program
code gets created as the Leo outline gets added to --- you don't flip
a switch at the end and poof, a program shows up. The switch flipping
thing is an image that helps me envision the benefits of Leo, even
though it isn't quite accurate.
==

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Re: Old Leo descriptions now in LeoDocs.leo

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 5:37:15 PM UTC-5, Matt Wilkie wrote:


 I am not convinced that putting any of these on Leo's web site would make 
 any substantial difference, but I am open to discussion. 


 I think it's useful to [have] everything in the installed files somewhere 
 on the website, which is not the same as saying make it prominent or 
 trivial to discover.


For the moment, there is an Easter Egg on the site: 
leoeditor.com/intro.html is the old tutorial.  This might keep external 
links from breaking--perhaps its only real benefit. 
 

 I used to have a section on my website called the wax museum for 
 no-longer-current and probably-not-relevant stuff (gone now due to web-host 
 churn :-( ). It had a prominent header-footer indicating it's historical 
 currency. Main reason for having a wax museum? It's usually easier to 
 leverage public search engines and a multi-tab browser for archaeology, and 
 possibly share the results, than searching files on disk. (and archaeology 
 is an important tool for deepening understanding of the present)


Last week I merged all useful info from the old tutorial to the new.  This 
was tedious work, and I can not imagine anyone would benefit from retracing 
those steps.   

In short, I think the old tutorial does more harm than good; it distracts 
people from the new tutorial.  At present, leoNotes.txt contains the old 
tutorial, but probably not for long.  If people *really* want to see the 
old docs, they can use the bzr repo!  That seems about right ;-)

Edward

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Re: leo on sourceforge



On Sunday, October 20, 2013 6:54:14 PM UTC-5, Matt Wilkie wrote:

 Possible things for Leo's entry on Sourceforge:

 Add to Categories:

Topic::Text Editors
Topic::Text Editors::Text Processing


Thanks for this suggestion.  It will be done for b1.

Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you


On 10/21/2013 11:57 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Jacob Peck gatesph...@gmail.com 
mailto:gatesph...@gmail.com wrote:


Well, Leo's impact on my life since I found it in January has been
substantial.
[Snip]


Thanks Jake. I'll add these words to the quotes page:
http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#what-people-are-saying-about-leo

Edward

Not that it's terribly important, but could I also be added to the list 
of plugin contributors?


Thanks,
--Jake

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.comwrote:

 On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 07:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
 Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:

  Not sure why you said you can specify a computer program as an
  outline like thing in an outliner like setting.  Why not just say,
  write a computer program in an outline?  Is there some nuance I am
  
 missing?

 There are probably a million reasons I said it like that, but I think
 the main one is my everpresent, brightly burning belief that a program
  
 should be designed before its coded.
 [big snip]
  



 So it seems to me that I *design* the program on Leo, and then, when
  
 the time comes, I flip a switch and Leo *writes* the program for me.


 As soon as I have free time, I'm going to do the Leo Hello World
 program that Gatesphere recommended, and then I'll be able to express
  
 myself better.


Excellent.


 
 The first words of the announcement *must* list Leo's key
 benefits, and perhaps even say why Leo trumps Emacs org mode and
  
 vimoutline mode.  This is a major opportunity missed.  I'll correct
 it for the b1 announcement.

 I'd be careful about making such assertions.


Thanks for the warning. I was thinking about you comment about Leo having
an image problem:

QQQ
But first, I think Leo has an image problem. Mention Leo, and most
people say it's an outliner. If that's all Leo was, VimOutliner would
have eaten Leo's lunch years ago --- VimOutliner's faster and has the
90% of outlining features that people use 90% of the time. Not only
that, face the facts, 95% of the population will never believe they
need an outliner or that an outliner would do them any good, or that
outlining is a skill they need to bother to acquire.
QQQ

To repeat, I have been thinking about this ever since I read it.  Somehow,
we must combat the perception that Emacs and Vim outline modes do it all.

I'd view Leo's niche as designing
  
 programs, and then flipping a switch and having Leo write them. That's
  
 *huge*, and is only peripherally related to the fact that Leo can
  
 function as an outliner.


Hmm.  Certainly, Leo's outlining features are *features*, not benefits.

There are several real benefits lurking in this discussion.  When I finish
emails I'll attempt to make a fairly short lists of those benefits, and why
Emacs and vim do not provide the same benefits.  It might be dangerous, but
I think it has to be done.  Otherwise, why would we be using Leo, and why
would anyone else want to use Leo?

Edward

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Fidel N fidelpe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wow the three videos thing is a great idea, I also think that one could be
 very useful.

 But if no one is willing to make those, at least the website could include
 an in-website video to some of the already existing ones such as:
  [snip]


Thanks for this suggestion.  It's on the list to make these vids more
prominent on the home page.

Edward

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Fidel N fidelpe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Also, there is an interesting article on Sourceforge on how to increase a
 projects 
 popularityhttp://sourceforge.net/blog/what-we-can-do-to-help-promote-your-project/
 .
  [snip]


Getting Leo on the Sourceforge mass monthly mailing would be great.  I've
made a note of this.

Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Jacob Peck gatesph...@gmail.com wrote:


 Not that it's terribly important, but could I also be added to the list of
 plugin contributors?


Sure, where is it ;-)

Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you


On 10/21/2013 12:20 PM, Edward K. Ream wrote:
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Jacob Peck gatesph...@gmail.com 
mailto:gatesph...@gmail.com wrote:


Not that it's terribly important, but could I also be added to the
list of plugin contributors?


Sure, where is it ;-)

Edward

On that same page, further down under acknowledgements, I think. 
http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#acknowledgements


Thanks!
--Jake

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Re: Leo in the wild

On Monday, October 21, 2013 3:43:02 AM UTC-5, Zoom.Quiet wrote:

2013/10/21 Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.com javascript:: 
  One of the more interesting sightings of Leo in the Wild I've come 
 across: 
  
  http://zoomquiet.org/ 
  
  Though reading Chinese would be useful to uncover just how Leo is 
 involved! 
  (Zoom has participated on the list before, perhaps this mention will 
  persuade him to elaborate? ;-) 
  
 WoW! 


It is we who should be saying wow :-)

Some very quick comments.

I suspect your slides and blogs are better than any in English.  Thanks for 
this work.

BUT! in fact ,make more and more guys usage Leo is hard things, because: 
 1. Literate Programming/Editing/Writing is can not [understandable], must 
 use out! 


That's why Leo's docs don't use the term Literate Programming any more.
 

 2. Leo can not usage as Team! 
 - whatever @file/@shadow 
 - after through DVCS(hg/git/bzr etc.) 
 - Leo can not perfect merged others fixed into myself Leo node tree ! 


I assume you meant that there are problems using .leo file with teams.  See:
http://leoeditor.com/FAQ.html#leo-in-shared-environments 
 

 maybe discovered, i try to translat Leo's doc: 
 http://zoomquiet.github.io/leo-doc-zh/leo_toc.html 
 but that is always can not configured ok for Sphinx... 
 so sad for me.


It would be *so* good to have Leo's docs translated to Chinese, even 
without sphinx formatting. LeoDocs.leo contains all of Leo's web site. I 
assume it would be possible to translate all the sections to Chinese.

Many thanks for all the good work you have done with Leo.  Maybe I should 
learn Chinese!

Edward

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.comwrote:


 This is almost ready to be a Khan
  
 Academy lesson (and by the way,
 
 Khan Academy courses on Leo would be
  
 another excellent mindshare builder).


I've made a note of this.


Does anyone have instructions for building a Hello World app in Leo?

It depends on what you mean by an app.  For some purposes, every node in a
Leo outline could be considered an app:

http://leoeditor.com/tutorial-scripting.html#hello-world

If you want the code in an external file, the programming tutorial should
provide the answer: http://leoeditor.com/tutorial-programming.html
But it doesn't!  How about this?::

Headline: @file hello.py

Body:

@first #! /usr/bin/env python
@first # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
if __name__ == '__main__':
   print('Hello World')

Depending on your purposes, the body could just be::

print('Hello World')

Edward

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Re: On Leo Default Config

2013-10-21 Thread Don Dwiggins


On 10/18/13 7:42 AM, jkn wrote:
For clarity, I might point out this corresponding action from Ecco Pro 
for getting items to the first child of a node
I'd like to second jkn's wish.  For reference, here's a brief intro I 
wrote up, describing Ecco's outlining behavior: 
http://www.compusol.org/ecco/outlining.html (mostly the keystrokes, but 
some useful mouse actions as well).  This feature makes restructuring an 
outline as easy as editing a block of text.





A
A1 # selected
B
B1
B2
C

Moving A1 down results in:

A
B
A1 # selected
B1
B2
C


Regards
Jon N

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Advanced Publishing Technology


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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jacob Peck gatesph...@gmail.com wrote:

On that same page, further down under acknowledgements, I think.
 http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#acknowledgements


Done in LeoDocs.leo.  I am going to separate the preliminaries pages
again.  This will allow sphinx to generate a TOC for the FAQ.

EKR

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Re: On Leo Default Config

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Don Dwiggins ddwigg...@advpubtech.comwrote:

 On 10/18/13 7:42 AM, jkn wrote:

 For clarity, I might point out this corresponding action from Ecco Pro
 for getting items to the first child of a node

 I'd like to second jkn's wish.


Yes, this will happen, but not for b1 ;-)

Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

hi Ed, the link to Joe Orr's tutorial page is broken. The wayback machine
does not hold more than the index, because the links were POST http
requests, so I'm afraid that tutorial is lost, unless someone has saved it
and can share. I think that a broken link is bad for Leo.

best regards,

Haroldo





2013/10/21 Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com

 On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jacob Peck gatesph...@gmail.com wrote:

  On that same page, further down under acknowledgements, I think.
 http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#acknowledgements


 Done in LeoDocs.leo.  I am going to separate the preliminaries pages
 again.  This will allow sphinx to generate a TOC for the FAQ.

 EKR

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

hi,

2013/10/20 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com

 On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 12:00:30 -0700 (PDT)
 Fidel N fidelpe...@gmail.com wrote:

  Wow the three videos thing is a great idea, I also think that one
  could be very useful.
 


I fully agree. Nowadays, no matter how much effort one puts toward learning
a tool, it is always not enough, or ona will forget soon unless it turns to
be a day to day tool, and only under certain non-abundant
favourable-learning conditions. Videos online , easily accessible,
non-nonsense, showhing all: benefits, workflows, features, workarounds,
etc., are invaluable, Khan or youtube are mor or less the same when you
need to learn *now*.




  But if no one is willing to make those, at least the website could
  include an in-website video to some of the already existing ones such
  as:
 
  Leo: A Paradigm shifting IDE
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgJ89ekGj-s (Which btw has a very
  catchy name)

 One man's opinion: This video isn't an asset for Leo. The speaker
 really needs to attend Toastmasters for six months to gain a
 persuasive, confident, and happy speaking style. Half his time was spent
 with you know and stutters, resulting in a too-slow pace without
 enhanced learning, and watching him fidget and correct himself, it
 looked like he was marching to his execution. He obviously liked Leo,
 but he showed no enthusiasm.

 Also, you don't give people this level of detail until you've given
 them a reason to salivate over the thing you're talking about.


It is very important to take into account what you are saying here. I agree
in every point. It nothing personal towards the guy doing the presentation.
It's just that the video needs to be used as a script (in the
film-industry sense) to do a 15 minute better video. The effort put there
is notoriously huge, and at least for me, it gets me very emotional, and
interferes the ability acquisition process. Not that there are recipes or
better ways to do videos, but at least when one youtube's for Leo editor,
there shoul pop up more thatn 20 non-nonsense , to-the-point videos, but
they are not there. The gut-level sensation that I get is: there are people
benefit a lot for what can be done with this tool, but they are not sharing
it in a easy way.



 
  or
 
  Leo: Intro to outline
  manipulationhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu6J-J0qFi0

 Yeah, this is what I was talking about. Your basic dog and pony show: 7
 minutes shows me what Leo can do.


Sure, it is better, but still, there are very few of them.

best regards,
Haroldo

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Haroldo Stenger haroldo.sten...@gmail.com
 wrote:


 when one youtube's for Leo editor, there sh
 ould
  pop up more than 20 non-nonsense , to-the-point videos, but they are not
 there. The gut-level sensation that I get is: there are people benefit a
 lot for what can be done with this tool, but they are not sharing it in a
 easy way.


I agree.  This is something that I want to have, and I'm willing to do
it.  It's going to happen...

Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Haroldo Stenger haroldo.sten...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 hi Ed, the link to Joe Orr's tutorial page is broken.


I don't see this link at leoeditor.com.  Are you looking at the correct
home page?

Edward

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

hi Ed again,

I know that you're after it, you've gone (alongside with the kind and
thoughtful leo team) a long way, with a lot of effort, which is really
joyful to know of, and in a minimal part on my own, to be a part of.

Thanks you all.

best

Haroldo




2013/10/21 Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com

 On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Haroldo Stenger 
 haroldo.sten...@gmail.com wrote:


 when one youtube's for Leo editor, there sh
  ould
 pop up more than 20 non-nonsense , to-the-point videos, but they are not
 there. The gut-level sensation that I get is: there are people benefit a
 lot for what can be done with this tool, but they are not sharing it in a
 easy way.


 I agree.  This is something that I want to have, and I'm willing to do
 it.  It's going to happen...

 Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

hi Ed,

Yes, see this page's part:
http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#acknowledgements

There are two links, the second one being: http://www.evisa.com/e/sb.htm which
renders
Error 404 - Not Found

It got offline a couple of years ago if I'm interpreting wayback machine's
historical data.

best regards,

Haroldo




2013/10/21 Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com

 On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Haroldo Stenger 
 haroldo.sten...@gmail.com wrote:

 hi Ed, the link to Joe Orr's tutorial page is broken.


 I don't see this link at leoeditor.com.  Are you looking at the correct
 home page?

 Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

2013-10-21 Thread Ville M. Vainio

- The outliner format helps me organise/reorganise my thoughts gradually,
instead of putting everything in the right place from the beginning. I
write a lot of body text with few headlines, and Leo's approach leaves lots
of space for the body text and therefore suits my workflow. I find that I
end up revisiting notes composed on Leo more often than notes slapped into
tools like Evernote or random files in the file system.

- With Leo, I can interleave notes (most of the content), generated files
and even random data and python scripts to manipulate that data. I process
this data in various tools, but Leo helps me group it together in project
specific Leo files.

- I know how to script the outline, so I can easily whip up different tools
for my needs that deal with the headline structure directly.

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Re: Leo in the wild

2013-10-21 Thread Matt Wilkie

thank you for the extended description and links :)

In the wild means something like beyond the village or outside walls
of protected garden.



On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:43 AM, Zoom.Quiet zoom.qu...@gmail.com wrote:

 2013/10/21 Matt Wilkie map...@gmail.com:
  One of the more interesting sightings of Leo in the Wild I've come
 across:
 
  http://zoomquiet.org/
 
  Though reading Chinese would be useful to uncover just how Leo is
 involved!
  (Zoom has participated on the list before, perhaps this mention will
  persuade him to elaborate? ;-)
 
 WoW!

 - thanx for across me
 - Leo in the Wild
 - the Wild i guess means : just wild usage, never touch Leo resource
 code
 - yeah! exactitude, that is me ;-)
 - i usage Leo from 2004, base 4.2
 - but untill Leo 4.3, almost one year late
 - Leo break into my coding life
 - because , after long time try and try, finally, one blink opened my
 brain
 - i understanded :What is Literate Programming
 - that feeling is so magic! so u creaded wiki for sharing it:
 http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/LeoEnvironment
 and
 http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/LiterateProgramming
 etc.

 - and try to tell people, how the Leo can make Programming Literated

 as slides:
 http://zoomquiet.org/res/s5/060730-Leo%2blighTracker/060730-abtLeo/
 http://zoomquiet.org/res/s5/100918-MyTools/rst2s5/

 as records:
 http://zoomq.qiniudn.com/CPyUG/zq2voice/060730-cpug_abt-leo.ogg
 http://zoomq.qiniudn.com/CPyUG/060731-bpyug-leo
 http://zoomq.qiniudn.com/CPyUG/100716-Leo-LiterateProgramming
 http://zoomq.qiniudn.com/CPyUG/zq2voice/100930-snda-mytools

 http://zoomquiet.org/res/m/r/pycon2011china-sh-120304/111203_pyconcn-qt-11-leo.MP3

 - also publish words:
 full version:
 http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/ZqStudy/MyLearningSkill#Leo
 the publish version:
 《程序员》7月刊: 我的工具箱
 http://www.programmer.com.cn/3484/
 programmer the bigest tech magazine of China, the words had
 published 2010 Jul.

 of course, as most Chinese peogeammer
 - i usage Leo begin windows NT-2003
 - 2006 as Ubuntu
 - from 2011 finally jump into MAC OS X 10.7

 - so yes, i'm Wild user of Leo
 - now i almost base Leo write every thing:
 - code (py,js,css,xml...)
 - words
 - slides (rst2s5)
 - blog (rst or md)
 - PKM (personal knowledge manage)
 - ...

 BUT! in fact ,make more and more guys usage Leo is hard things, because:
 1. Literate Programming/Editing/Writing is can not understanded, must use
 out!
 2. Leo can not usage as Team!
 - whatever @file/@shadow
 - after through DVCS(hg/git/bzr etc.)
 - Leo can not perfect merged others fixed into myself Leo node tree !

 so i just can try and try, call on people feeling Leo and Literate
 Programming
 can not make them happy and enjoy Leo in everywhere...


 btw:
 through here:
 http://zoomquiet.org/obp-idx.html
 maybe discovered, i try to translat Leo's doc:
 http://zoomquiet.github.io/leo-doc-zh/leo_toc.html
 but that is alwasy can not configed ok for Shpnix...
 so sad for me.


 --
 人生苦短, Pythonic! 冗余不做,日子甭过!备份不做,十恶不赦!
 KM keep growing environment culture which promoting organization be
 learnning!
 俺: http://about.me/zoom.quiet
 许: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/cn/

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Re: Leo in the wild

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Zoom.Quiet zoom.qu...@gmail.com wrote:

Please note Leo's new home address: http://leoeditor.com/

All links to http://webpages.charter.net are broken: in particular, the Leo
link at the bottom of http://zoomquiet.org/

Edward

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Re: This, and only this, can make Leo more popular

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Terry Brown terry_n_br...@yahoo.comwrote:

I haven't contributed to this thread because I still struggle with a
concise view of what Leo is. Sometimes I think of it as a multitool

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Victorinox_Multitool.jpg/800px-Victorinox_Multitool.jpg

but this analogy breaks down because in real life, a multitool
is typically great if you have nothing else but not as good as the
specialized tools it replaces.

There is something truly strange about this situation.

Terry and I and many other Leonistas are passionate about Leo. And not in
the utterly debased advertising sense of the word.

If you doubt this, read the testimonials:
http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#what-people-are-saying-about-leoYou
will be amazed at what you read. I was.

The vim testimonials are positive, but *so* bland in comparison.
http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/quotes.html
And I haven't found an equivalent page for Emacs!

And yet *none* of us seem to be able to explain exactly where the
excitement is coming from! How bizarre is that!

In some ways Leo is like Emacs, but with a modern GUI, Python instead

of Lisp, and a more useful core data structure (outline instead of text

buffers).

All true. All features ;-) We have to translate these into benefits.

what about

Leo scripts have full access to all outline data, to Leo's internal
code and state, and to Leo's GUI controls.

Better. Still features, but they could lead us to the *benefits* that
excite us so.

BTW, having programming be fun, exciting, perhaps even addictive is a
benefit, not a feature.

Neither one will mean much to some people, but the second will be a
stronger hook for people who do understand what you're getting at.

We are on the brink of a breakthrough. The conversation has refocused our
attention on benefits, not features. When we identify the benefits, we win.

Here is my preliminary list of benefits. The stuff in parentheses are the
features that enable the benefit.

- Faster work flow (clones, per-node scripting, API)
- Clearer vision and understanding of complex data, including computer
programs (outline organization is everywhere)
- Fantastically powerful scripting (each node/tree can be a script or
external file, scripts have easy access to outlines and Leo's code via the
API and Leo's plugin architecture.)
- More fun! Leo opens a new world to explore.
- New directions in programming and organizing data (@test, @graph, @rst,
@url ETC, ETC.)

True, newbies will have no idea what the enabling features mean. I'm
tempted to stress the sizzle. And maybe we should.

I discussed this with my close friend, Phil Straus, this morning. Some
ideas that arose:

- Stress that org mode and vimoutline mode are no substitute for Leo

- Put benefits in the places that matter, namely the home page, the main
tutorial page and the preface.

- (Maybe) Put testimonials in the places that matter?

- (Maybe) Put testimonials throughout tutorial?

- (Maybe) Put relevant benefit on each tutorial page?

Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Haroldo Stenger
haroldo.sten...@gmail.comwrote:

 hi Ed,

 Yes, see this page's part:
 http://leoeditor.com/preliminaries.html#acknowledgements

 There are two links, the second one being: http://www.evisa.com/e/sb.htm which
 renders
 Error 404 - Not Found


Thanks.  I'll remove it immediately.

Edward

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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you

2013-10-21 Thread Matt Wilkie

I found a working copy!
http://screenbooks.net/e/sbooks/leo/

I've sent a message to Joe Orr asking if it's okay to mirror it.

-matt


On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Haroldo Stenger haroldo.sten...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 hi Ed, the link to Joe Orr's tutorial page is broken. The wayback machine
 does not hold more than the index, because the links were POST http
 requests, so I'm afraid that tutorial is lost, unless someone has saved it
 and can share. I think that a broken link is bad for Leo.

 best regards,

 Haroldo



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Re: Please tell us: what are the benefits of Leo to you