Re: Team Leo: where are you from?

[Matt Wilkie]

> https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Team%20Leo
>

Glad to see a map, thanks Chris.

- Matt Wilkie, Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada

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Re: Problem when trying to upgrade a version of Leo in an existing VE to Leo 6.0 beta 1

[Matt Wilkie]

Believed fixed as of a few minutes ago. Thanks for documenting the problem, 
one less thing for me to do when I ran into it myself. I didn't have to 
spend time figuring out if it was just me :)

It seems we need to require PyQt 5.12+ now because of upstream changes in 
how the libraries are named and packaged.

-matt

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Re: Matt: please delete your git hooks

[Matt Wilkie]

Done

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Org Brain

[Matthew Piziak]

I searched for org-brain  in this 
group but I didn't see any results so I thought I'd bring it to the group's 
attention.

In particular, like Leo but unlike vanilla Org mode, Org Brain supports 
DAGs. By default it displays all parents and children of the current node, 
but when viewed as a tree it represents this relationship with clones, just 
like Leo.

Has anyone had the pleasure of using both for a significant workflow and 
having a point of comparison? If so I'd love to hear your opinion. If not, 
I'll probably try to use both myself to see what it's like. 

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Org Brain

[Matthew Piziak]

I searched for org-brain  in this 
group and I couldn't find any mention, so I thought I'd bring to the 
group's attention.

In particular, like Leo but unlike vanilla Org, Org Brain supports DAGs. In 
the default visualization mode it shows all children and parents of a given 
node, and in tree mode it shows them just like Leo does—as cloned nodes.

Has anyone had the pleasure of using both of them for a significant 
workflow and having a point of comparison? If so I'd love to hear what you 
think. If not then I'll try them out myself and report back.

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Re: My initial experience using ILeo ...

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Hello Edward & Community,

TL;DR:

Once I sent the previous email, I had one last idea / suspicion, which I
hoped might explain the different behaviour b/w your (EKR) and my
environment. - I was wrong ...

Longer version:

In order to be able to directly log the output from programs, I usually
have a first Leo Logging instance open & perform my tests in a second Leo
instance.

Therefore I tried the same steps only with a single Leo instance started.

The behaviour did **not** change. - Below you'll find the logs stored with
Wordpad ...

I'm now out of ideas - and - will wait for feedback from the community - as
well as - yours.

Obviously only after your return from a hopefully very relaxing vacation!

With kind regards,

Viktor

### Part 1 - Activate VE ...

Windows PowerShell
Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. Alle Rechte vorbehalten.

Lernen Sie das neue plattformübergreifende PowerShell kennen –
https://aka.ms/pscore6

PS C:\Users\Viktor> cd pyve/VE4ILeo
PS C:\Users\Viktor\pyve\VE4ILeo> ./scripts/activate.ps1
(VE4ILeo) PS C:\Users\Viktor\pyve\VE4ILeo> leo --ipython

### Part 2 - Output from JCP ...

Jupyter QtConsole 4.5.1
Python 3.6.5 (v3.6.5:f59c0932b4, Mar 28 2018, 17:00:18) [MSC v.1900 64 bit
(AMD64)]
Type 'copyright', 'credits' or 'license' for more information
IPython 7.5.0 -- An enhanced Interactive Python. Type '?' for help.

_leo.c

_leo.g
Out[2]: 

### Part 3 - Try to access Leo ...

Still not accessible.

### Part 4 - Quit JQC ...

Closes Leo as well.

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Re: Jeff R: What emacs features do you want?

[Jeff R.]

I apologize for my slow response. I do not know whether I am remotely close 
to the intended audience for Leo, but I can say that Leo does not feel far 
from the type of tool I would use  on a regular basis. 

By way of background, I am an attorney and I run a solo law practice. I use 
emacs, and particularly orgmode, to track various aspects of my practice, 
including scheduling, time tracking, note taking, and brief drafting. It 
really does everything I need in those regards, and importing all of this 
functionality, or even the bare functionality that would make me be able to 
switch from orgmode would be a huge task and not really what it seems is 
Leo’s target.

Outside of the organizing my life  aspect of my practice, I am also 
constantly working on a book of research on my areas of practice 
(constitutional law). My practice area is  academic. In this arena, Leo is 
superior to orgmode, due mostly to the use of clones. With my subject area 
it is impossible to create an outline that does not make heavy use of 
clones if it is being efficient. And clones make the outline so much more 
clear and easy to work though. But I can’t justify using a second text 
editor for this because orgmode is good enough for this purpose (and can be 
customized to whatever extent needed). But there are other things I like 
about Leo (python over elisp, for example) that still make me long to be 
able to make it a centerpiece of my workflow. 

Beyond orgmode, I find that Emacs is much more inviting to customization. I 
know how to do some coding, and have taught myself python and elisp in the 
last handfull of years. I do not have the time to do anything serious, but 
I write scripts for various tasks that I routinely use. In emacs, I 
understand how to easily create commands, even complex ones, and bind them 
to shortcuts. I can easily make use of hooks and insertion and movement 
commands, manipulate text, and really do whatever transformations I can 
imagine (within a text editor). While I think python is a much more 
powerful and useful language, my impression is that Leo does not create 
such an inviting environment (in terms of inviting and enabling users to 
customize the text editing experience) by comparison. It is very possible 
that I simply have not looked deep enough, or know enough about python to 
know how to do all of the things elisp brings to the surface (buffer 
movement commands, commands like save-excursion, save-restriction, buffer 
switching, font-locking, etc.). 

As I said, I also write programs from time to time and think Leo is much 
superior to org-babel.

So, the short answer is that I really need orgmode or a viable replacement 
for it, and I recognize that this is well outside of Leo’s mission, hence 
my question about Leo inside emacs.

Thanks for inviting further feedback. 





On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 2:45:23 PM UTC, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 8:47 AM Arjan > 
> wrote:
>
>> Whilst there is a benefit to the "focus" of seeing only one node at a 
>>> time, in the cases where I use Org-mode I explicitly want/need to see 
>>> multiple nodes at a time.
>>
>>
>> This is something I would really like to be able to use in Leo. Both for 
>> writing text as well as code, being able to see the preceding and following 
>> node contents would be very beneficial. 
>>
>
> #1228  should help 
> considerably.  All the changes will be in the code that draws (redraw) the 
> outline.  It should be easy to create a command that toggles between the 
> legacy outline view and the "unified" view.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: My initial experience using ILeo ...

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Hello Edward,

Am Di., 25. Juni 2019 um 12:30 Uhr schrieb Edward K. Ream :
>
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 4:32 AM Viktor Ransmayr  
> wrote:
>
> > I was able to create an environment, where the Jupyter QtConsole (JQC) is 
> > started - however - the associated Leo outline, in my case 
> > "quickstart.leo", becomes unusable as soon as the JQC starts :-(
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by unusable.  When I run leo --ipython I see a 
> message from ipython/jupyter ending in:
>
> To connect another client to this kernel, use:
> --existing kernel-49120.json

I don't see a similar message : -( - See JQC output below ...

> Within the JQC, _leo.c and _leo.g are bound as expected:
>
> In [1]:_leo.c
> Out[1]: Commander 2323764986824: 'C:/Users/edreamleo/.leo/workbook.leo'
>
> In [2]: _leo.g
> Out[2]:  'c:\\leo.repo\\leo-editor\\leo\\core\\leoGlobals.py'>

This is what I see in JQC:

Jupyter QtConsole 4.5.1
Python 3.6.5 (v3.6.5:f59c0932b4, Mar 28 2018, 17:00:18) [MSC v.1900 64
bit (AMD64)]
Type 'copyright', 'credits' or 'license' for more information
IPython 7.5.0 -- An enhanced Interactive Python. Type '?' for help.

_leo.c

_leo.g
Out[2]: 


> Within the .leo file, executing (Ctrl-B) `print(g.app.ipk)` prints the 
> following in the JQC:
>
> 

I can't enter any command at Leo's side! - This is what I meant with
unusable ;-)

With kind regards,

Viktor

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Re: On vacation until July 9

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Hello Edward,

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 17:11 Edward K. Ream  wrote:

> Rebecca and I will be on vacation until Tuesday, July 9.  We can resume
> our conversations after I get back.
>

Enjoy your vacation!

With kind regards,

Viktor

>

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On vacation until July 9

[Edward K. Ream]

Rebecca and I will be on vacation until Tuesday, July 9.  We can resume our 
conversations after I return.

Edward

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Re: IPC between Leo & vim, emacs, etc

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 9:41:57 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 8:18 AM jkn  wrote:
>
> To my mind it would be nicer to have the body pane of Leo visible, but 
>> actually *be* the vim, emacs or whatever buffer.
>>
>
> Sure.  Alas, I know of no way of doing it.  On any platform.
>

Btw, even if Leo's body pane *were* vim, IPC would still be needed between 
Leo and vim.

Edward

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Re: Jeff R: What emacs features do you want?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 8:47 AM Arjan  wrote:

> Whilst there is a benefit to the "focus" of seeing only one node at a
>> time, in the cases where I use Org-mode I explicitly want/need to see
>> multiple nodes at a time.
>
>
> This is something I would really like to be able to use in Leo. Both for
> writing text as well as code, being able to see the preceding and following
> node contents would be very beneficial.
>

#1228  should help
considerably.  All the changes will be in the code that draws (redraw) the
outline.  It should be easy to create a command that toggles between the
legacy outline view and the "unified" view.

Edward

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Re: IPC between Leo & vim, emacs, etc

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 8:18 AM jkn  wrote:

Aren't there some ... systems where you can provide (terminology showing
> the vintage here) a handle to an outside program, of 'the window under
> consideration'?
>

Sure.  nvim supports servername.  See also nvr
.

To my mind it would be nicer to have the body pane of Leo visible, but
> actually *be* the vim, emacs or whatever buffer.
>

Sure.  Alas, I know of no way of doing it.  On any platform.

You could call this a holy grail. Imo, it's not likely to happen.

In your diagram,I'm not clear how you would send the tree to the external
> editor. Wouldn't that have to be in text mode, with much potential loss of
> information?
>

The diagram implies no such thing.  The tree is in Leo.  You would have to
move back to Leo to move from node to node.

You could imagine, say,  `:leo-up` and similar commands that would simulate
an up arrow in Leo's outline pane, updating the body pane (that is, vim) in
the process.

I expect to play with these ideas in prototypes.

Edward

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Re: Jeff R: What emacs features do you want?

[Arjan]

>
> Whilst there is a benefit to the "focus" of seeing only one node at a 
> time, in the cases where I use Org-mode I explicitly want/need to see 
> multiple nodes at a time.


This is something I would really like to be able to use in Leo. Both for 
writing text as well as code, being able to see the preceding and following 
node contents would be very beneficial. In my opinion there are a few 
important drawbacks to the current situation:

1. There's a need to hold a lot of the context in your head (e.g. how did I 
start the previous paragraph? What function name did I use in the parent 
node? Etc.). This takes up space in working memory.
2. When it's urgent enough that you need to look up this context, it takes 
several key strokes, plus you lose focus on the position where you were 
working. If you can just scroll up or down to see this context, without 
having to navigate and maybe fold nodes, then scroll back, you do not lose 
the visuo-spatial sense of where you were, even if you'd scroll the 
selected node out of view. I.e. you remember how much scrolling you'd have 
to do to get back. At least that's how it works for me.
3. Because of 1 and 2, I tend to avoid creation of more fine-grained nodes 
to structure my work, even though it would otherwise be beneficial.

I found a few places where this idea was discussed before:

Feb 2017 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/leo-editor/qkcmQGL7fdw/l3DvLAoVCgAJ
Sep 
2017 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/leo-editor/7OANSWcoOzg/b_tXlLTzAgAJ 
"multi-pane editing"

Cheers,
Arjan

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Re: IPC between Leo & vim, emacs, etc

[jkn]

Aren't there some ... systems where you can provide (terminology showing 
the vintage here) a handle to an outside program, of 'the window under 
consideration'?

To my mind it would be nicer to have the body pane of Leo visible, but 
actually *be* the vim, emacs or whatever buffer.

In your diagram,I'm not clear how you would send the tree to the external 
editor. Wouldn't that have to be in text mode, with much potential loss of 
information?

Just a bit of musing ... I would be interested to learn how other systems 
do this.

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Re: IPC between Leo & vim, emacs, etc

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 7:08 AM gar  wrote:

Edward, but does Leo need these hard to implement features?
>

No. Leo could be said to be "perfect", just the way it is :-)

> What would Leo achieve when it get them?
>

vim and emacs users who want Leonine features while retaining features of
vim and emacs.

Don't you think that say improving usability is more preferable then
> another compatibility mode?
>

The picture is a way to *avoid* vim mode.  It attempts to get the best of
vim editing (in vim) with Leonine features.

> Learning curve of Leo is very very steep, it took me more than 2 weeks of
> reading and experimenting - and I am still cannot work fluently in it.
> Trying to customize UI is a severe pain.
>

Are you referring to Leo's themes?  In any case, this is a completely
separate issue.

> Plenty of documented features (like vim mode) do not work as described.
>

That's why I am considering removing vim mode.

Leo have too many features which become broken right in the next release.
>

I am not aware of any significant bugs in Leo 6.0.

Is there any reason to add another one?
>

All enhancements come with costs and benefits.  Imo, there could be
important benefits to better cooperation between Leo and vim or emacs.

*Summary*

Closer integration between Leo and external programs such as vim and emacs
might solve existing problems with a minimum of new code.  In any case, the
vim plugin needs work.

Edward

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Re: Jeff R: What emacs features do you want?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 7:36 AM john lunzer  wrote:

Sure, I've made a mock up to aid understanding.
>

Thanks for the picture. As you say, it's like org mode.  BTW, it's also
like MORE.

the body pane as shown here is what you see when in Org mode, It doesn't
> have a "tree pane".
>

I have just created #1228
 for this.

To be clear I'm not advocating that Leo's body pane be converted to this.
> I'm suggesting this as a new and different type of body pane, where you
> could switch between this new type of body pane and a conventional single
> node body pane, depending on your preference.
>

It should be possible to embed multiple "real" body panes in the outline
without much fuss.

My understanding from past conversation is that Terry has put quite some
> work into *something similar*.
>

I'm not aware of the work.

Edward

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Re: Jeff R: What emacs features do you want?

[john lunzer]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 6:14:28 AM UTC-4, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 8:00 AM john lunzer  > wrote:
>
> > If Leo had a multi-node body pane which reflected the indented 
> structure/view shown in the tree pane then it would function more similarly 
> to Org-mode than it does now. 
>
> I don't have a clear picture for this. Can you explain further?
>
> Edward
>

Sure, I've made a mock up to aid understanding. In this example, typically 
the "header" nodes would not contain "body" text but it does not mean they 
can't. Any node could have the same header/body split as the "child" nodes 
in this example. Perhaps a better name for this type of body pane would be 
a "tree body pane". The important thing is that the view in the body pane 
reflects the view in the tree pane, really the only difference between them 
is that the body pane also shows the body text for each node. Interestingly 
the body pane as shown here is what you see when in Org mode, It doesn't 
have a "tree pane". 

To be clear I'm not advocating that Leo's body pane be converted to this. 
I'm suggesting this as a new and different type of body pane, where you 
could switch between this new type of body pane and a conventional single 
node body pane, depending on your preference.

My understanding from past conversation is that Terry has put quite some 
work into *something similar*. I believe he has shown us his own 
mock-ups/demos, though, I don't believe he incorporated the tree-like 
indentation in the body pane as I have shown here.

[image: tree_body.png]



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Re: IPC between Leo & vim, emacs, etc

[gar]

Edward, but does Leo need these hard to implement features?
What would Leo achieve when it get them? 

Don't you think that say improving usability is more preferable then 
another compatibility mode?
Learning curve of Leo is very very steep, it took me more than 2 weeks of 
reading and experimenting - and I am still cannot work fluently in it.
Trying to customize UI is a severe pain.
Plenty of documented features (like vim mode) do not work as described.

Leo have too many features which become broken right in the next release. 
Is there any reason to add another one?

(I bag my pardon if i was rude - I didnt want to, I just wanted to focus 
your attention on such simple things like user friendliness)

вторник, 25 июня 2019 г., 14:35:05 UTC+3 пользователь Edward K. Ream 
написал:
>
> This sketch shows my present thinking about how to better integrate Leo 
> with external programs such as vim, emacs or even browsers:
>
>
> The left side shows a separate program, say vim.  The right side shows 
> Leo, with the body pane hidden because vim becomes Leo's de-facto body.
>
> *In Leo*: Pressing  in the outline transfers control to vim, 
> showing c.p.b with the cursor in the proper place.
>
> *In Vim*: `:leo` transfers control to Leo, updating c.p.b and putting 
> focus in the outline.
>
> Similarly, in emacs, leo.
>
> This would let Leonistas to use the *real* vim (or neovim, or emacs) for 
> text editing.
>
> *Discussion*
>
> The diagram implies that both Leo and vim/whatever are usually handling 
> keystrokes as usual.  This ensures native speed in the external program.
>
> To make this work, we (only) need some kind of client-server interaction, 
> so that Leo and vim can activate each other *without* using Alt-Tab.
>
> This will be the focus of my playful prototypes when I return from 
> vacation.  Using yoton is an option, because neovim supports python. A 
> simpler client-server scheme might suffice. And would be necessary with 
> emacs.
>
> Your comments, please.
>
> Edward
>
> P. S. Relevant vim-related issues:
>
> - #990 : Embed 
> neovim into Leo.
> - #981 : Editing in 
> an external editor.
> - #559 : 
> vim-open-node positions cursor at the last line.
> - #313 : 
> vim-open-node opens file instead of a node.
>
> EKR
>

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Discuss: Retire vim mode?

[Edward K. Ream]

Important:  I'm talking about vim *mode* (@bool vim-mode), *not* the vim.py 
plugin.  The vim plugin is here to stay, although it should be improved.

This would be the fourth or fifth time (at least) that a major feature has 
been retired. All previous retirements have ultimately improved Leo.

Terry and Kent have voted with their feet, and I am grateful to gar for 
pointing out vim mode's serious problems.

Does anyone actually use vim mode?  If so, how do you work around vim 
mode's shortcomings?

Edward

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Re: My initial experience using ILeo ...

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 4:32 AM Viktor Ransmayr 
wrote:

> I was able to create an environment, where the Jupyter QtConsole (JQC) is
started - however - the associated Leo outline, in my case
"quickstart.leo", becomes unusable as soon as the JQC starts :-(

I'm not sure what you mean by unusable.  When I run leo --ipython I see a
message from ipython/jupyter ending in:

To connect another client to this kernel, use:
--existing kernel-49120.json

Within the JQC, _leo.c and _leo.g are bound as expected:

In [1]:_leo.c
Out[1]: Commander 2323764986824: 'C:/Users/edreamleo/.leo/workbook.leo'

In [2]: _leo.g
Out[2]: 


Within the .leo file, executing (Ctrl-B) `print(g.app.ipk)` prints the
following in the JQC:



Executing the same with Leo's ipython-exec command does the same.  In
short, Leo's ipython bridge seems to be working for me on Windows 10.

Edward

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Re: Jeff R: What emacs features do you want?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 8:00 AM john lunzer  wrote:

> [Emacs] is not an editor or an IDE or a PIM, but simply contains all
those things. emacs is not an integrated development environment (IDE) but
rather an integrated computing environment (ICE, just coined).

Many thanks for this excellent summary.

> [Emacs users] spend close to 100% of [their] time within the computing
environment. In emacs the features that help facilitate this are dired,
vc/magit, and term/shell-commands.

> I spend an enormous amount of my time in dired because it's just so well
integrated into the rest of emacs. It is as if I have the entirety of my
file system and network at my finger tips. I can run shell commands on any
files/folders or subset of files/folders and any output goes directly into
emacs; this helps keep me in emacs an out of the terminal. dired is further
enabled by TRAMP which allows you to view the file system of remote
computers via SSH. TRAMP also makes it seamless to edit files on those
remote computers.

> vc/magit/diff-hl and other features make version control seamless and
mostly painless. Being able to see which files have changed (in dired) and
which lines of my code have changes (via icons in the gutter) at all times
really helps keep my mind organized and focused. These features also help
keep me out of the terminal.

Sound like great features.

> And then there is Org, which I'm sure you've gotten plenty of requests
for features from. Leo is very much like Org. I use Org more like a Jupyter
Notebook than anything else. What I utilize most is Org-babel. Org-babel
allows you to run any kind of code from anywhere within an org file and
save the results within the Org file.

As you say, Leo does this, but a bit differently.

> If Leo had a multi-node body pane which reflected the indented
structure/view shown in the tree pane then it would function more similarly
to Org-mode than it does now.

I don't have a clear picture for this. Can you explain further?

Edward

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