Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-02-11 Thread Edward K. Ream 
On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Ville M. Vainio  wrote:

> Leo already works with ipython, but I'm aware we are talking about ipython
> notebook here ;).
>
> I think I did an experiment on this back in the day - it would involve
> launching "ipython kernel" (that hosts all the data, and that is used as a
> backend for the web frontend) in the Leo process. This would give ipython
> notebook access to Leo's dom, and Leo could access the cells in ipython
> notebook.
>

​That would be very cool.  Despite the mismatch in models between Leo and
IPython, I am very interested in working more closely with IPython.

Edward

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-29 Thread Ville M. Vainio 
Leo already works with ipython, but I'm aware we are talking about ipython
notebook here ;).

I think I did an experiment on this back in the day - it would involve
launching "ipython kernel" (that hosts all the data, and that is used as a
backend for the web frontend) in the Leo process. This would give ipython
notebook access to Leo's dom, and Leo could access the cells in ipython
notebook.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Edward K. Ream 
wrote:

> ​​
> ​On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Brad  wrote:
>
>> I understand. My thinking was that if you decide to move ahead, the
>> IPython (and more generally Jupyter) developers have gone through the
>> careful process (and pain) of designing an integrated, extensible system
>> (tornado, zmq, json, javascript) that may be of use in a more general
>> context. This might give the project a head start instead of having to
>> discover a workable system based on lower-level components.
>>
>
> ​The biggest win-win that I can see would be to "insinuate" Leo somehow
> into IPython.  Let's call this project **ipLeo**: Leo in the IPython world.
>
> It would be a win for IPython because it could give IPython Leo's DOM,
> scripting, outlines and clones.
>
> It would be a win for Leo because IPython is really big: it continues to
> get favorable mention in places like Nature and Science.  And IPython is
> attracting big bucks for development.  It's a popular, powerful and
> expanding platform.
>
> ipLeo may be feasible, especially with the jupyter architecture.  The
> fundamental rule, from my point of view, is **no fork of IPython**.  We can
> change IPython during prototyping and development of ipLeo, but eventually
> we will want to be able to offer some kind of IPython plugin that does
> ipLeo.
>
> This may be the new direction we have been looking for.  I see neither a
> need to contact the IPython team nor to ask their permission for us to
> start investigating the possibilities.
>
> Your comments please, Amigos.
>
> Edward
>
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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-28 Thread Matt Wilkie 
> ​The biggest win-win that I can see would be to "insinuate" Leo somehow
> into IPython.
>

Count me for one that would love this!

Matt

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-28 Thread Matt Wilkie 
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Jacob Peck  wrote:

> This means that *one single codebase* will run on Windows, Linux, Mac OS
> X, Android, iOS, Blackberry OS, Windows Phone, Tizen, Mozilla/Firefox OS,
> etc, with no complicated user installation.



dunno if it's relevant here, but Docker is on my list of things to
investigate:
https://www.docker.com/, "Build, Ship and Run Any App, Anywhere"

matt

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Edward K. Ream 
​​
​On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Brad  wrote:

> I understand. My thinking was that if you decide to move ahead, the
> IPython (and more generally Jupyter) developers have gone through the
> careful process (and pain) of designing an integrated, extensible system
> (tornado, zmq, json, javascript) that may be of use in a more general
> context. This might give the project a head start instead of having to
> discover a workable system based on lower-level components.
>

​The biggest win-win that I can see would be to "insinuate" Leo somehow
into IPython.  Let's call this project **ipLeo**: Leo in the IPython world.

It would be a win for IPython because it could give IPython Leo's DOM,
scripting, outlines and clones.

It would be a win for Leo because IPython is really big: it continues to
get favorable mention in places like Nature and Science.  And IPython is
attracting big bucks for development.  It's a popular, powerful and
expanding platform.

ipLeo may be feasible, especially with the jupyter architecture.  The
fundamental rule, from my point of view, is **no fork of IPython**.  We can
change IPython during prototyping and development of ipLeo, but eventually
we will want to be able to offer some kind of IPython plugin that does
ipLeo.

This may be the new direction we have been looking for.  I see neither a
need to contact the IPython team nor to ask their permission for us to
start investigating the possibilities.

Your comments please, Amigos.

Edward

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Brad 
I understand. My thinking was that if you decide to move ahead, the IPython 
(and more generally Jupyter) developers have gone through the careful 
process (and pain) of designing an integrated, extensible system (tornado, 
zmq, json, javascript) that may be of use in a more general context. This 
might give the project a head start instead of having to discover a 
workable system based on lower-level components.

On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 8:50:10 AM UTC-7, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Brad > 
> wrote:
>
>> Can any of the lessons learned and infrastructure from the IPython 
>> notebook and project Jupyter (https://jupyter.org/ - private 
>> ) be of use?
>>
>
> ​Excellent question.​
>  
> ​I hadn't known about jupyter ​until just now, but it's derived from 
> IPython so let's pretend for the moment that similar remarks apply to both.
>
> I've thought about this question recently.  Here are my present thoughts.
>
> IPython is quite different from Leo. The IPython notebook can and does 
> write .nb files in a "private" format.  Yes, .nb files can be shared, but 
> the goal of notebooks isn't to create files but to use IPython.
>
> The collaboration model for IPython and Leo are different.  Presumably, 
> one would not use git on .nb files, though I suppose one could.
>
> In short, studying IPython's code would be useful *if* we knew we wanted 
> wLeo, but the success of IPython's notebook does not mean that wLeo is 
> useful.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Kent Tenney 
In the browser would also benefit the outreach issue:
http://leo-editor.com/demo ...


On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Jacob Peck  wrote:
>
> On 1/14/2015 10:55 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>>
>> Writing to a local device involves having a server running on that device.
>
> Nope -- HTML5 brought support for localstorage and the FileSystem API.  Web
> apps can write persistent files to client devices.
> http://www.noupe.com/design/html5-filesystem-api-create-files-store-locally-using-javascript-webkit.html
> (quick google search sent me there)
>
> -->Jake
>
>
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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Jacob Peck 


On 1/14/2015 11:28 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:


Is there any impediment to using Leo with files that are in the local
DropBox folder? 



​Not that I know of.  I just created @file 
\Dropbox\test.py​
​and saved it. Changed test.py in the Dropbox folder.  The changes 
appear when I reloaded the .leo file containing the @file node.


Edward
I use SpiderOak for sync.  So long as I don't sync the database folder, 
all works well :)

-->Jake

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Edward K. Ream 
> Is there any impediment to using Leo with files that are in the local
> DropBox folder?


​Not that I know of.  I just created @file
\Dropbox\test.py​

​and saved it.  Changed test.py in the Dropbox folder.  The changes appear
when I reloaded the .leo file containing the @file node.

Edward

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor 
On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 08:35:00 -0500
Jacob Peck  wrote:

>- elsewhere in 'the cloud' (DropBox?  SpiderOak?)

Is there any impediment to using Leo with files that are in the local
DropBox folder?  Hmm, I have DropBox synced. on my phone, but the
Android outliner DGT GTD links directly to my DropBox account, without
requiring a local DropBox folder... I guess that makes sense, app. can
use DropBox even if user isn't using it in the regular synced folder
way.

Cheers -Terry

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Edward K. Ream 
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Jacob Peck  wrote:

>
> On 1/14/2015 10:55 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>> Writing to a local device involves having a server running on that
>> device.
>>
> Nope -- HTML5 brought support for localstorage and the FileSystem API.
> Web apps can write persistent files to client devices.
> http://www.noupe.com/design/html5-filesystem-api-create-
> files-store-locally-using-javascript-webkit.html (quick google search
> sent me there)


​Thanks for this.  I'll think about it.

Just started viewing the lightning talk about jupyter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDrhn0-r9Eg&t=4m10s
Like everything connected with IPython, this is a cool, intelligent
project.  It will deserve careful study.

I'm not convinced wLeo would be worth the effort, but it surely is worth
investigating.  Jupyter is supposedly language agnostic.  I wonder whether
this means there is room for Leo somehow in the jupyter framework...

Edward

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Jacob Peck 


On 1/14/2015 10:55 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:
Writing to a local device involves having a server running on that 
device. 
Nope -- HTML5 brought support for localstorage and the FileSystem API.  
Web apps can write persistent files to client devices.
http://www.noupe.com/design/html5-filesystem-api-create-files-store-locally-using-javascript-webkit.html 
(quick google search sent me there)


-->Jake

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Edward K. Ream 
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Jacob Peck  wrote:

>
> On 1/14/2015 10:38 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>


> The cross-platform support is the key here.  Being able to run it on *any*
> device with a modern web browser is crazy useful.  Leo on my tablet, Leo on
> my phone, Leo on my thermostat!  A bit ridiculous, but still, the
> implications are astounding.
>

​I agree that this kind of scenario (except for thermostats) sounds
appealing.​


​You have to be able to write files on each device, unless there is a
common server that stores files.  Writing to a local device involves having
a server running on that device.  This is what IPython does, which means
that IPython must be installed on each device. (The IPython installer
installs a Tornado server.)

Edward

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Edward K. Ream 
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Brad  wrote:

> Can any of the lessons learned and infrastructure from the IPython
> notebook and project Jupyter (https://jupyter.org/) be of use?
>

​Excellent question.​

​I hadn't known about jupyter ​until just now, but it's derived from
IPython so let's pretend for the moment that similar remarks apply to both.

I've thought about this question recently.  Here are my present thoughts.

IPython is quite different from Leo. The IPython notebook can and does
write .nb files in a "private" format.  Yes, .nb files can be shared, but
the goal of notebooks isn't to create files but to use IPython.

The collaboration model for IPython and Leo are different.  Presumably, one
would not use git on .nb files, though I suppose one could.

In short, studying IPython's code would be useful *if* we knew we wanted
wLeo, but the success of IPython's notebook does not mean that wLeo is
useful.

Edward

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Jacob Peck 


On 1/14/2015 10:38 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:
The question is, would wLeo be an improvement over plain Leo.  At 
present, I do not see how.  For example, plain Leo will have *much* 
better drawing and file-related performance than wLeo​
​ .  And if wLeo is merely going to deal with local files there is 
clearly nothing to be gained.  Imo.
The cross-platform support is the key here.  Being able to run it on 
*any* device with a modern web browser is crazy useful.  Leo on my 
tablet, Leo on my phone, Leo on my thermostat!  A bit ridiculous, but 
still, the implications are astounding.


Leo in the web could lead to a boot-to-wLeo OS akin to the Chrome OS 
used in Chromebooks.  A fully immersive Leo experience, with much less 
hassle than the pie-in-the-sky LeOS would take.


As far as DropBox goes, the question is: why would sharing using 
DropBox be preferable to sharing using git?​

​
It'd only be preferable to those users who prefer using Dropbox. User 
choice is very important.


-->Jake

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Edward K. Ream 
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:35 AM, Jacob Peck  wrote:



> wLeo could access .leo files in a variety of spaces:
>
>   - Local files
>   - github repos
>   - elsewhere in 'the cloud' (DropBox?  SpiderOak?)
>   - stored on a private server
>

​True.  The question is, would wLeo be an improvement over plain Leo.  At
present, I do not see how.  For example, plain Leo will have *much* better
drawing and file-related performance than wLeo​
​.  And if wLeo is merely going to deal with local files there is clearly
nothing to be gained.  Imo.

As far as DropBox goes, the question is: why would sharing using DropBox be
preferable to sharing using git?​
​

​Edward

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Brad 
Can any of the lessons learned and infrastructure from the IPython notebook 
and project Jupyter (https://jupyter.org/) be of use?

-Brad

On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 5:31:38 AM UTC-7, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> I suspect that I shall be studying web technologies this year.  They are 
> way too important to ignore any longer.  Besides, they are interesting 
> technologies.
>
> Let me state a preliminary conclusion, which may not last more than a few 
> hours:
>
> Leo has no real future *as* a web app, call it **wLeo**,
> unless one or more of the following becomes a web app:
> git, vim, emacs or eclipse.
>
> This follows the "first things first" principle: we want to make sure that 
> wLeo  would actually be useful.
>
> Web apps are connected to severs that (surprise) actually serve up content 
> (from data bases or news feeds or something else).  But what would wLeo 
> serve up?  Well, a .leo file, presumably on a *local* machine.  That being 
> so, we might as well use Leo on that local file.  Just like vim and emacs 
> do. Yes, we could imagine a collaborative Leo working on shared .leo files, 
> but that seems pretty much a fantasy.
>
> Otoh, it is conceivable that Leo could be a killer app for *creating* web 
> apps.  Indeed, my brother Speed has done some interesting work in that 
> direction.  He calls his work leopard: the last two letters stand for 
> "response daemon".
>
> You might say that the mod_http plugin could be used as a prototyping 
> engine for creating web apps.  I started studying mod_http yesterday.  This 
> lead me to pages such as:
>
> https://docs.python.org/2/howto/sockets.html - private 
> 
>
> https://parijatmishra.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/writing-a-server-with-pythons-asyncore-module/
>  - private 
> 
> http://code.activestate.com/recipes/259148/ - private 
> 
> https://docs.python.org/2/library/asyncore.html - private 
> 
> https://docs.python.org/2/library/simplehttpserver.html - private 
> 
>
> https://docs.python.org/2/library/basehttpserver.html#BaseHTTPServer.BaseHTTPRequestHandler
>  - private 
> 
> and
> https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio.html - private 
> 
>
> Here is a vid about the Tulip library that morphed into asyncio
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aurOB4qYuFM - private 
> 
>
> Whew!
>
> Your comments please.
>
> Edward
>
> P.S.  mod_http needs some refactoring.  I plan to create a new plugin to 
> play with so as not to disturb mod_http in the interim.
>
> EKR
>

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Re: Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Jacob Peck 

On 1/14/2015 7:31 AM, Edward K. Ream wrote:
Web apps are connected to severs that (surprise) actually serve up 
content (from data bases or news feeds or something else).  But what 
would wLeo serve up?  Well, a .leo file, presumably on a *local* 
machine.  That being so, we might as well use Leo on that local file.  
Just like vim and emacs do. Yes, we could imagine a collaborative Leo 
working on shared .leo files, but that seems pretty much a fantasy.

Just my $0.02, so feel free to ignore, but...

This is a fallacy.  wLeo could access .leo files in a variety of spaces:

  - Local files
  - github repos
  - elsewhere in 'the cloud' (DropBox?  SpiderOak?)
  - stored on a private server

This is nothing that the desktop Leo couldn't do with a bit of work and 
some clever plugins, that much is true.  But here's the kicker: Leo 
doesn't run in web browsers.  *Any* platform with a modern, standards 
compliant web browser would be able to run wLeo, **with no 
installation**.  That last point is a big one.  This means that *one 
single codebase* will run on Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, Android, iOS, 
Blackberry OS, Windows Phone, Tizen, Mozilla/Firefox OS, etc, with no 
complicated user installation.  I believe a web frontend for Leo (which 
is all wLeo would need to be) would be an absolute boon to the 
community... existing web-based outliners just don't cut it, imo.


But... this is a long road to go down.

-->Jake

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Leo *for* web apps vs. Leo *as* a web app

2015-01-14 Thread Edward K. Ream 
I suspect that I shall be studying web technologies this year.  They are 
way too important to ignore any longer.  Besides, they are interesting 
technologies.

Let me state a preliminary conclusion, which may not last more than a few 
hours:

Leo has no real future *as* a web app, call it **wLeo**,
unless one or more of the following becomes a web app:
git, vim, emacs or eclipse.

This follows the "first things first" principle: we want to make sure that 
wLeo  would actually be useful.

Web apps are connected to severs that (surprise) actually serve up content 
(from data bases or news feeds or something else).  But what would wLeo 
serve up?  Well, a .leo file, presumably on a *local* machine.  That being 
so, we might as well use Leo on that local file.  Just like vim and emacs 
do. Yes, we could imagine a collaborative Leo working on shared .leo files, 
but that seems pretty much a fantasy.

Otoh, it is conceivable that Leo could be a killer app for *creating* web 
apps.  Indeed, my brother Speed has done some interesting work in that 
direction.  He calls his work leopard: the last two letters stand for 
"response daemon".

You might say that the mod_http plugin could be used as a prototyping 
engine for creating web apps.  I started studying mod_http yesterday.  This 
lead me to pages such as:

https://docs.python.org/2/howto/sockets.html
https://parijatmishra.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/writing-a-server-with-pythons-asyncore-module/
http://code.activestate.com/recipes/259148/
https://docs.python.org/2/library/asyncore.html
https://docs.python.org/2/library/simplehttpserver.html
https://docs.python.org/2/library/basehttpserver.html#BaseHTTPServer.BaseHTTPRequestHandler
and
https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio.html

Here is a vid about the Tulip library that morphed into asyncio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aurOB4qYuFM

Whew!

Your comments please.

Edward

P.S.  mod_http needs some refactoring.  I plan to create a new plugin to 
play with so as not to disturb mod_http in the interim.

EKR

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