Re: Following up: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[Israel Hands]

At the risk of missing the point - I too was very excited about that post 
but maybe for different reasons. I would find multi-pane editing useful but 
for me not a deal breaker. Challenging org-mode at a todo, diary, capture, 
schedule and reminder level  on the other hand would be a huge plus. In 
these areas org-mode's functionality is simply the best and challenging 
these would be very exciting indeed.  Ta

IH

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 1:34:29 PM UTC+1, john lunzer wrote:
>
> Back in February there was a pretty awesome thread about some pretty 
> awesome features 
>  that 
> were planned for Leo 5.5. 
>
> One of the big ones there was a new multi-pane editing mode. Just wanted 
> to check with Terry and Edward on where this left off. I still think this 
> could be a killer feature. 
>
> Another was a execute-script-in-common-namespace command.
>
> Lastly there was a proposed show-drawer command, looks like Edward tested 
> the waters on this back in May but didn't get much back.
>
> Anyway, just checking in. Multi-pane editing is definitely at the top of 
> my list and it seems like Terry had put a bunch of work in, would be a 
> shame if it never saw the light of day.
>

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Re: Following up: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[Arjan]

I'd like to +1 that multi-pane editing mode could really be a killer 
feature.

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Re: Following up: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[john lunzer]

I always expected the focused pane would be c.p, all other panes would have 
no explicit reference other than being +/- N positions from c.p. I'm not 
sure I see the benefit of giving them a programmatic reference. The 
potential downside is serious, needing to wrap a more complicated model 
around Leo's existing model.

Your get-it-out-the-door solution is the simplest solution and therefor 
probably the best option.

I can't wait to see what you're able to come up with. As discussed in Feb, 
it could be a game changer for many applications. I'm really excited about 
cell based (or node based in Leo's case) jupyter-notebook and org-mode 
style interactions within Leo. 

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 11:48:37 AM UTC-4, Terry Brown wrote:
>
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 05:34:28 -0700 (PDT) 
> john lunzer  wrote: 
>
> > Anyway, just checking in. Multi-pane editing is definitely at the top 
> > of my list and it seems like Terry had put a bunch of work in, would 
> > be a shame if it never saw the light of day. 
>
> Thanks for the nudge :-)  I really should have another look at it.  It 
> basically works, but needs Leo syntax highlighting (probably not a big 
> deal) and Leo key handling (much bigger deal). 
>
> The challenge is that c.p isn't a clearly defined concept in the new 
> model.  Maybe the best approach would be to make c.p follow the focused 
> pane as an initial 'get it out the door' kind of solution, then look at 
> possible decoupling further down the track. 
>
> Cheers -Terry 
>

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Following up: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[john lunzer]

Back in February there was a pretty awesome thread about some pretty 
awesome features 
 that were 
planned for Leo 5.5. 

One of the big ones there was a new multi-pane editing mode. Just wanted to 
check with Terry and Edward on where this left off. I still think this 
could be a killer feature. 

Another was a execute-script-in-common-namespace command.

Lastly there was a proposed show-drawer command, looks like Edward tested 
the waters on this back in May but didn't get much back.

Anyway, just checking in. Multi-pane editing is definitely at the top of my 
list and it seems like Terry had put a bunch of work in, would be a shame 
if it never saw the light of day.

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Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:46 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor <
leo-editor@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
​> ​
Leo 5.5 will have an execute-script-in-common-namespace command. This can
be added with only a few lines of code. It's needed to simulate
pyzo/jupyter/org mode calculations.

>
​ ​
vs-eval / vs-last / vs-pretty do this.

I agree with John's comment.  This must be part of Leo's core.

>
​> ​
Leo 5.5 will also have a show-drawer command
​.​


>
​ ​
Sort of like the attrib_edit plug
​in.

#414  asserts that
attrib_edit is not good enough, and suggests a new drawers.py plugin as an
alternative.

Edward​

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Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[john lunzer]

Not mere amusement my friend! This is going to be part of the future of Leo.

Feedback:

   - Add a "collapse body" ellipsis toggle. I think this will make Leo more 
   friendly to people coming from flat text editors. I think a setting which 
   automatically collapses nodes with empty bodies and somehow visually 
   indicates that the body is not just collapsed, but empty would be useful in 
   Org-mode style outlining.
   - For hiding the "options" bar add a toggle just to the right of the 
   node headline.
   - Consider what can be done with themes for this feature. It might be 
   good to introduce a setting to add a "divider" object that is placed 
   between node bodies, for themes which disable borders of the individual 
   edit panes.
   - I think it will be important to optionally "indent" each body pane to 
   match the tree level. 
   - Getting the scroll bars to behave in a way people find predictable 
   will get tricky when dynamically adding and deleting nodes to the stacked 
   editors.

That should get us 90-95% of the way there. Terry, please do not sell this 
feature short. I think as Edward alluded to in his comment, this can be a 
killer core feature of Leo's node based outlining. Not only can this make 
Leo more approachable to new users but it can significantly expand Leo's 
ability to incorporate new modes of operation (org-mode, Leo as a terminal, 
Jupyter, etc). I cannot stress enough how important I think this is.

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 3:40:33 PM UTC-5, Terry Brown wrote:
>
> Just for amusement, here's Leo with three body editors, vertically, using 
> the new edit pane I'm working on.  Of course you wouldn't want the controls 
> showing on each one, but this is just thrown up with the free_layout system 
> - you'd really want to stack them in a scroll area.  Then just do the trick 
> web pages do to appear to have endless content, delete one from the top and 
> insert one at the bottom as the user scrolls down, doing the insertions and 
> deletions off screen.
>
> [image: Inline image]
> Cheers -Terry
>
>
> --
> *From:* john lunzer <lun...@gmail.com >
> *To:* leo-editor <leo-e...@googlegroups.com > 
> *Sent:* Friday, February 17, 2017 1:56 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode
>
> Really glad to see the idea of multiple body panes is gaining traction. 
> Along with optionally being able to show the node headlines, as you 
> suggested, there should also be an option to indent the entire panes to 
> match the tree indentation. Org-mode has this toggle.
>
> On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 2:21:56 PM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> In another thread I wrote:
>
> > Perhaps [ A Brief Summary of Leo <http://leoeditor.com/preface.html>] 
> should be rewritten in the org-mode intro style, but that's for some other 
> time.
>
> Actually, now *is *the time.
>
> My competitive juices are flowing. The new intro will directly challenge 
> org mode. It will do this by showing, with numerous examples, why Leo is 
> *already 
> *superior to org mode for scientific computation. Scientists can design 
> there own Leonine sub-outlines that represent computations and operations.
>
> @button, Leo's API and Leo's DOM, combined with python scripting, are 
> *much* more convenient and powerful than org-mode.  Simplicity and 
> generality are more important than a org-mode features.  Leo most 
> definitely has the chops to support reproducible research, or any other 
> buzzword one wants to use.
>
> Leo 5.5 will have an execute-script-in-common- namespace command. This can 
> be added with only a few lines of code. It's needed to simulate 
> pyzo/jupyter/org mode calculations.
>
> Leo 5.5 will also have a show-drawer command. It will pop up a window 
> showing a special 'core-drawer' uA. Saving the popup will update the uA.  
> No need for changes to Leo's body pane.
>
> Furthermore, Leo is already vastly superior to org mode for software 
> development, with features like automatic untangle (updating @ 
> nodes), automatic tangle when saving .leo files, clone-find commands, 
> clones, etc, Heh. Whenever I make this kind of list, I inevitably forget 
> things. Like @test, @suite, @button, scripting API, etc. etc.!
>
> So Reinhard's criticisms are bearing fruit. I'll be emphasizing the 
> problems Leo is designed to solve.  These big tasks are Leo's main purpose. 
> Sure, you can use Leo for keeping track of your record collection.  Leo 
> let's you do simple things simply.  But you can also do *complex* things 
> simply and flexibly. Things like designing a suite of long-running 
> experiments, documenting them, and ensuring that all code is transparent to 
> reviewers.  Or developing softwar

Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[john lunzer]

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 3:46:54 PM UTC-5, Terry Brown wrote:
>
> vs-eval / vs-last / vs-pretty do this.  I added them to the inscrutable 
> valuespace plugin because it already creates a common namespace (c.vs), but 
> really they should be separate, seeing they're straight forward and easy to 
> understand, unlike the rest of valuespace ;-)
>

I never consider Leo as having this feature primarily because it's part of 
valuespace, which I've failed to understand several times. Edward/Terry, I 
think if Leo is going to be considered by the general userbase as having a 
feature of executing a script in a common namespace it needs to be 
untethered/extracted from the valuespace plugin.

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Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[Kent Tenney]

S**t is getting serious

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:40 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor <
> leo-editor@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Just for amusement, here's Leo with three body editors, vertically, using
>> the new edit pane I'm working on.
>>
>
> ​Excellent demo. This is going to be a breakthrough year for Leo.
>
> Edward
>
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Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:40 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor <
leo-editor@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Just for amusement, here's Leo with three body editors, vertically, using
> the new edit pane I'm working on.
>

​Excellent demo. This is going to be a breakthrough year for Leo.

Edward

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Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:46 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor <
leo-editor@googlegroups.com> wrote:


> > Leo 5.5 will have an execute-script-in-common-namespace command.
>


> vs-eval / vs-last / vs-pretty do this.
>
> > Leo 5.5 will also have a show-drawer command.
>
> Sort of like the attrib_edit plugin ;-)
>

​Hehe.  Hard to keep up with Leo. Next up: tables.py.

Edward

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Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

['Terry Brown' via leo-editor]

> From: Edward K. Ream <edream...@gmail.com>> To: leo-editor 
> <leo-editor@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 1:21 PM> 
> Subject: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode> > In another thread I wrote:> > > 
> Perhaps [ A Brief Summary of Leo] should be rewritten in the org-mode intro 
> style, but that's for some other time.> > Actually, now is the time.> > My 
> competitive juices are flowing. The new intro will directly challenge org 
> mode. It will do this by showing, with numerous examples, why Leo is already 
> superior to org mode for scientific computation. Scientists can design there 
> own Leonine sub-outlines that represent computations and operations.
I'm pleased to hear we're back to Leo being an alternative to, rather than a 
copy of, Emacs :-) > @button, Leo's API and Leo's DOM, combined with python 
scripting, are much more convenient and powerful than org-mode.  Simplicity and 
generality are more important than a org-mode features.  Leo most definitely 
has the chops to support reproducible research, or any other buzzword one wants 
to use.> > Leo 5.5 will have an execute-script-in-common-namespace command. 
This can be added with only a few lines of code. It's needed to simulate 
pyzo/jupyter/org mode calculations.
vs-eval / vs-last / vs-pretty do this.  I added them to the inscrutable 
valuespace plugin because it already creates a common namespace (c.vs), but 
really they should be separate, seeing they're straight forward and easy to 
understand, unlike the rest of valuespace ;-)
> Leo 5.5 will also have a show-drawer command. It will pop up a window showing 
> a special 'core-drawer' uA. Saving the popup will update the uA.  No need for 
> changes to Leo's body pane.
Sort of like the attrib_edit plugin ;-)
Cheers -Terry
> Furthermore, Leo is already vastly superior to org mode for software 
> development, with features like automatic untangle (updating @ nodes), 
> automatic tangle when saving .leo files, clone-find commands, clones, etc, 
> Heh. Whenever I make this kind of list, I inevitably forget things. Like 
> @test, @suite, @button, scripting API, etc. etc.!> > So Reinhard's criticisms 
> are bearing fruit. I'll be emphasizing the problems Leo is designed to solve. 
>  These big tasks are Leo's main purpose. Sure, you can use Leo for keeping 
> track of your record collection.  Leo let's you do simple things simply.  But 
> you can also do complex things simply and flexibly. Things like designing a 
> suite of long-running experiments, documenting them, and ensuring that all 
> code is transparent to reviewers.  Or developing software like Leo itself. 
> All using Python and its libraries, not elisp and emacs-only libraries.> > 
> I'll be using mostly prose, as I have just done, combined with code 
> snippets.> > Edward> > P. S. The easy way to simulate org-mode's window, and 
> improve upon it, will be to allow Leo's body pane to contain multiple, 
> vertically aligned panes.  Like this:> > Overall body pane:> > pane 1> - 
> (separator)> pane 2> - (separator)> pane 3> ...> > Users will be able to 
> see the various panes without intervening headlines, although separators may 
> show headlines.  Only one of the panes will be active.  It is the "real" body 
> pane.  This can be done in a plugin, I suspect. It will not happen for Leo 
> 5.5, however.> > EKR> -- > You received this message because you are 
> subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group.> To unsubscribe from this 
> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 
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Re: Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[john lunzer]

Really glad to see the idea of multiple body panes is gaining traction. 
Along with optionally being able to show the node headlines, as you 
suggested, there should also be an option to indent the entire panes to 
match the tree indentation. Org-mode has this toggle.

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 2:21:56 PM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> In another thread I wrote:
>
> > Perhaps [ A Brief Summary of Leo ] 
> should be rewritten in the org-mode intro style, but that's for some other 
> time.
>
> Actually, now *is *the time.
>
> My competitive juices are flowing. The new intro will directly challenge 
> org mode. It will do this by showing, with numerous examples, why Leo is 
> *already 
> *superior to org mode for scientific computation. Scientists can design 
> there own Leonine sub-outlines that represent computations and operations.
>
> @button, Leo's API and Leo's DOM, combined with python scripting, are 
> *much* more convenient and powerful than org-mode.  Simplicity and 
> generality are more important than a org-mode features.  Leo most 
> definitely has the chops to support reproducible research, or any other 
> buzzword one wants to use.
>
> Leo 5.5 will have an execute-script-in-common-namespace command. This can 
> be added with only a few lines of code. It's needed to simulate 
> pyzo/jupyter/org mode calculations.
>
> Leo 5.5 will also have a show-drawer command. It will pop up a window 
> showing a special 'core-drawer' uA. Saving the popup will update the uA.  
> No need for changes to Leo's body pane.
>
> Furthermore, Leo is already vastly superior to org mode for software 
> development, with features like automatic untangle (updating @ 
> nodes), automatic tangle when saving .leo files, clone-find commands, 
> clones, etc, Heh. Whenever I make this kind of list, I inevitably forget 
> things. Like @test, @suite, @button, scripting API, etc. etc.!
>
> So Reinhard's criticisms are bearing fruit. I'll be emphasizing the 
> problems Leo is designed to solve.  These big tasks are Leo's main purpose. 
> Sure, you can use Leo for keeping track of your record collection.  Leo 
> let's you do simple things simply.  But you can also do *complex* things 
> simply and flexibly. Things like designing a suite of long-running 
> experiments, documenting them, and ensuring that all code is transparent to 
> reviewers.  Or developing software like Leo itself. All using Python and 
> its libraries, not elisp and emacs-only libraries.
>
> I'll be using mostly prose, as I have just done, combined with code 
> snippets.
>
> Edward
>
> P. S. The easy way to simulate org-mode's window, and *improve* upon it, 
> will be to allow Leo's body pane to contain multiple, *vertically aligned 
> *panes.  Like this:
>
> Overall body pane:
>
> pane 1
> - (separator)
> pane 2
> - (separator)
> pane 3
> ...
>
> Users will be able to see the various panes *without* intervening 
> headlines, although separators may show headlines.  Only one of the panes 
> will be active.  It is the "real" body pane.  This can be done in a plugin, 
> I suspect. It will not happen for Leo 5.5, however.
>
> EKR
>

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Leo 5.5 will challenge org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

In another thread I wrote:

> Perhaps [ A Brief Summary of Leo ] 
should be rewritten in the org-mode intro style, but that's for some other 
time.

Actually, now *is *the time.

My competitive juices are flowing. The new intro will directly challenge 
org mode. It will do this by showing, with numerous examples, why Leo is 
*already 
*superior to org mode for scientific computation. Scientists can design 
there own Leonine sub-outlines that represent computations and operations.

@button, Leo's API and Leo's DOM, combined with python scripting, are *much* 
more convenient and powerful than org-mode.  Simplicity and generality are 
more important than a org-mode features.  Leo most definitely has the chops 
to support reproducible research, or any other buzzword one wants to use.

Leo 5.5 will have an execute-script-in-common-namespace command. This can 
be added with only a few lines of code. It's needed to simulate 
pyzo/jupyter/org mode calculations.

Leo 5.5 will also have a show-drawer command. It will pop up a window 
showing a special 'core-drawer' uA. Saving the popup will update the uA.  
No need for changes to Leo's body pane.

Furthermore, Leo is already vastly superior to org mode for software 
development, with features like automatic untangle (updating @ 
nodes), automatic tangle when saving .leo files, clone-find commands, 
clones, etc, Heh. Whenever I make this kind of list, I inevitably forget 
things. Like @test, @suite, @button, scripting API, etc. etc.!

So Reinhard's criticisms are bearing fruit. I'll be emphasizing the 
problems Leo is designed to solve.  These big tasks are Leo's main purpose. 
Sure, you can use Leo for keeping track of your record collection.  Leo 
let's you do simple things simply.  But you can also do *complex* things 
simply and flexibly. Things like designing a suite of long-running 
experiments, documenting them, and ensuring that all code is transparent to 
reviewers.  Or developing software like Leo itself. All using Python and 
its libraries, not elisp and emacs-only libraries.

I'll be using mostly prose, as I have just done, combined with code 
snippets.

Edward

P. S. The easy way to simulate org-mode's window, and *improve* upon it, 
will be to allow Leo's body pane to contain multiple, *vertically aligned 
*panes.  
Like this:

Overall body pane:

pane 1
- (separator)
pane 2
- (separator)
pane 3
...

Users will be able to see the various panes *without* intervening 
headlines, although separators may show headlines.  Only one of the panes 
will be active.  It is the "real" body pane.  This can be done in a plugin, 
I suspect. It will not happen for Leo 5.5, however.

EKR

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