Re: Leo on Debian?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Am Sa., 13. März 2021 um 23:42 Uhr schrieb tbp1...@gmail.com <
tbp100...@gmail.com>:

> Once you have some version of Leo working - say, 6.1 - you can run other
> versions without actually installing them.
> A simple way to run any particular Leo version from GitHub is to get the
> zip file for that branch presumably *devel *- make sure you switch to the
> *devel* branch before getting it.  Unzip it somewhere, say in
> */home/you/Downloads*.  The top-level directory will be *leo-editor-devel*.
> Then to run that version:
>
> $ export PYTHONPATH='/home/you/Downloads/leo-editor-devel'
> $ python3 -m leo.core.runLeo
>
> This will work as long as the newer version of Leo does not require later
> versions of PyQt5, etc, because this method will not install them.
>

Yes, this is another workaround available - and - thanks for reminding me
of that option.

On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 3:15:57 PM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Viktor Ransmayr schrieb am Samstag, 13. März 2021 um 20:19:02 UTC+1:
>>
>>>
>>> stevelitt schrieb am Samstag, 13. März 2021 um 19:54:46 UTC+1:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This isn't responsive to your question, but it's some information...
>>>>
>>>> I have an extremely low opinion of Debian. I'm not a big fan of pip
>>>> either. Why not follow the instructions for git clone to install? I've
>>>> found, especially with Debian, that compiling yourself is a lot more
>>>> certain victory than Debian packages or pip.
>>>
>>>
>>> Although I'm having a workaround already, I'll spend the additional
>>> effort to install Leo 6.4-devel into Debian 10 using Git (and ! Pip ! ).
>>>
>>> However after that, I'll just create an issue documenting the overall
>>> status of Leo on Debian.
>>>
>>> This is as much as I can / want to spend on this issue. - After all I'd
>>> like to start working on the other topic, which 'forces' me to move from a
>>> Fedora VM to a Debian VM ;-)
>>>
>>
>> I've decided to create two issues for this problem - See
>>
>> * https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/1847 <- For Leo stable
>> from PyPI ...
>> * https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/1848 <- For Leo devel
>> from GitHub ...
>>
>
However it in my opinion also another example, why it is necessary to
distinguish b/w

* Installing 'Leo stable' from PyPI using Pip onto a Debian platform - and -
* Installing 'Leo devel' from GitHub using Git & Pip onto a Debian platform.

The first one should work for the **user**, who wants to use Leo as an
outliner on a slowly evolving - but - very stable platform like Debian.

The second one should work for the **developer**, who is interested in
packaging Leo for Debian.

That's at least the way, I currently see & understand it ...

Viktor

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/CAAeSrG%2BD68%3DOegO%2BRuHTsgDVD%2BdoJ7kyj1SF6%2BJ8mXfMWX%3De%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com.

Re: Leo on Debian?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

Once you have some version of Leo working - say, 6.1 - you can run other 
versions without actually installing them.
A simple way to run any particular Leo version from GitHub is to get the 
zip file for that branch presumably *devel *- make sure you switch to the 
*devel* branch before getting it.  Unzip it somewhere, say in 
*/home/you/Downloads*.  The top-level directory will be *leo-editor-devel*. 
Then to run that version:

$ export PYTHONPATH='/home/you/Downloads/leo-editor-devel'
$ python3 -m leo.core.runLeo

This will work as long as the newer version of Leo does not require later 
versions of PyQt5, etc, because this method will not install them.
On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 3:15:57 PM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com wrote:

> Viktor Ransmayr schrieb am Samstag, 13. März 2021 um 20:19:02 UTC+1:
>
>>
>> stevelitt schrieb am Samstag, 13. März 2021 um 19:54:46 UTC+1:
>>
>>>
>>> This isn't responsive to your question, but it's some information... 
>>>
>>> I have an extremely low opinion of Debian. I'm not a big fan of pip 
>>> either. Why not follow the instructions for git clone to install? I've 
>>> found, especially with Debian, that compiling yourself is a lot more 
>>> certain victory than Debian packages or pip. 
>>
>>
>> Although I'm having a workaround already, I'll spend the additional 
>> effort to install Leo 6.4-devel into Debian 10 using Git (and ! Pip ! ).
>>
>> However after that, I'll just create an issue documenting the overall 
>> status of Leo on Debian.
>>
>> This is as much as I can / want to spend on this issue. - After all I'd 
>> like to start working on the other topic, which 'forces' me to move from a 
>> Fedora VM to a Debian VM ;-)
>>
>
> I've decided to create two issues for this problem - See
>
> * https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/1847 <- For Leo stable 
> from PyPI ...
> * https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/1848 <- For Leo devel 
> from GitHub ...
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Viktor
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/536d2f82-b839-46f6-b7a8-a755fd5db1fen%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Viktor Ransmayr schrieb am Samstag, 13. März 2021 um 20:19:02 UTC+1:

>
> stevelitt schrieb am Samstag, 13. März 2021 um 19:54:46 UTC+1:
>
>>
>> This isn't responsive to your question, but it's some information... 
>>
>> I have an extremely low opinion of Debian. I'm not a big fan of pip 
>> either. Why not follow the instructions for git clone to install? I've 
>> found, especially with Debian, that compiling yourself is a lot more 
>> certain victory than Debian packages or pip. 
>
>
> Although I'm having a workaround already, I'll spend the additional effort 
> to install Leo 6.4-devel into Debian 10 using Git (and ! Pip ! ).
>
> However after that, I'll just create an issue documenting the overall 
> status of Leo on Debian.
>
> This is as much as I can / want to spend on this issue. - After all I'd 
> like to start working on the other topic, which 'forces' me to move from a 
> Fedora VM to a Debian VM ;-)
>

I've decided to create two issues for this problem - See

* https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/1847 <- For Leo stable 
from PyPI ...
* https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/1848 <- For Leo devel 
from GitHub ...

With kind regards,

Viktor

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/e8810686-49be-4e11-b181-bbb05597c244n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Hello Steve

stevelitt schrieb am Samstag, 13. März 2021 um 19:54:46 UTC+1:

>
> This isn't responsive to your question, but it's some information... 
>
> I have an extremely low opinion of Debian. I'm not a big fan of pip 
> either. Why not follow the instructions for git clone to install? I've 
> found, especially with Debian, that compiling yourself is a lot more 
> certain victory than Debian packages or pip. 


Although I'm having a workaround already, I'll spend the additional effort 
to install Leo 6.4-devel into Debian 10 using Git (and ! Pip ! ).

However after that, I'll just create an issue documenting the overall 
status of Leo on Debian.

This is as much as I can / want to spend on this issue. - After all I'd 
like to start working on the other topic, which 'forces' me to move from a 
Fedora VM to a Debian VM ;-)

With kind regards,

Viktor

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/e35355ae-807c-4bfc-b20b-6a32ab85baeen%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian?

[Steve Litt]

Hi Viktor,

This isn't responsive to your question, but it's some information...

I have an extremely low opinion of Debian. I'm not a big fan of pip
either. Why not follow the instructions for git clone to install? I've
found, especially with Debian, that compiling yourself is a lot more
certain victory than Debian packages or pip.

SteveT


>Hello Leo Community,
>
>Does anyone have Leo successfully running on top of Debian?
>
>Background of my question:
>
>Since more than a year I'm successfully running Leo in various Fedora
>& Windows VMs on top of Qubes OS. - For some reason I now have to use
>a Debian VM - and - obviously would like to continue to use Leo as my 
>outliner & notebook.
>
>Unfortunately I failed so far - and - am out of ideas now ...
>
>What did I do so far:
>
>* Failed initially to install Leo on Debian - See "Log-1"
>* After upgrading Pip from version 18.1 to 21.0.1 I was able to
>install the stable version of Leo from PyPI - See "Log-2"
>* However when I try to start Leo, I get the following error - See
>"Log-3"
>
>Any ideas what I could try next?
>
>With kind regards,
>
>Viktor
>
>### Logs ... ###
>
>< Start of Log-1 >
>
>user@debian-leo-vm:~$ cd PyVE/PyPI/Leo
>user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ source bin/activate (Leo)
>user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip list Package Version
>- --- pip 18.1 pkg-resources 0.0.0 setuptools 40.8.0
>(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install leo Collecting
>leo Using cached
>https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/33/15/d8aa24ac5b6acf7c45a2845ec807beea19f16c04f484436a065ba4f7aa54/leo-6.3-py3-none-any.whl
>Collecting pyflakes (from leo) Downloading
>https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/69/5b/fd01b0c696f2f9a6d2c839883b642493b431f28fa32b29abc465ef675473/pyflakes-2.2.0-py2.py3-none-any.whl
>(66kB) 100% || 71kB 3.3MB/s Collecting
>sphinx (from leo) Using cached
>https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/5b/05/982aeff8c88443b296b5896e46daf3f5933e5e54cd0bb086f8e5549655b7/Sphinx-3.5.2-py3-none-any.whl
>Collecting PyQt5>=5.12 (from leo) Using cached
>https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/8e/a4/d5e4bf99dd50134c88b95e926d7b81aad2473b47fde5e3e4eac2c69a8942/PyQt5-5.15.4.tar.gz
>Installing build dependencies ... done Complete output from command
>python setup.py egg_info: Traceback (most recent call last): File
>"", line 1, in  File "/usr/lib/python3.7/tokenize.py",
>line 447, in open buffer = _builtin_open(filename, 'rb')
>FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
>'/tmp/pip-install-9nyc5ejh/PyQt5/setup.py'
>------------ Command "python setup.py
>egg_info" failed with error code 1 in /tmp/pip-install-9nyc5ejh/PyQt5/
>(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$
>
>< End of Log-1 >
>
>< Start of Log-2 >
>
>(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install pip --upgrade
>Cache entry deserialization failed, entry ignored Collecting pip
>Downloading
>https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/fe/ef/60d7ba03b5c442309ef42e7d69959f73aacccd0d86008362a681c4698e83/pip-21.0.1-py3-none-any.whl
>(1.5MB) 100% || 1.5MB 986kB/s
>Installing collected packages: pip Found existing installation: pip
>18.1 Uninstalling pip-18.1: Successfully uninstalled pip-18.1
>Successfully installed pip-21.0.1 (Leo)
>user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip list Package Version
>- --- pip 21.0.1 pkg-resources 0.0.0 setuptools 40.8.0
>(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install leo Collecting
>leo Using cached leo-6.3-py3-none-any.whl (9.7 MB) Collecting
>PyQt5>=5.12 Downloading
>PyQt5>PyQt5-5.15.4-cp36.cp37.cp38.cp39-abi3-manylinux2014_x86_64.whl
>PyQt5>(8.3 MB) || 8.3 MB 3.7 MB/s
>PyQt5>Collecting PyQtWebEngine Downloading 
>PyQtWebEngine-5.15.4-cp36.cp37.cp38.cp39-abi3-manylinux2014_x86_64.whl
>(229 kB) || 229 kB 12.9 MB/s
>Collecting asttokens Downloading asttokens-2.0.4-py2.py3-none-any.whl
>(20 kB) Collecting docutils Using cached
>docutils-0.16-py2.py3-none-any.whl (548 kB) Collecting sphinx Using
>cached Sphinx-3.5.2-py3-none-any.whl (2.8 MB) Collecting pyflakes
>Using cached pyflakes-2.2.0-py2.py3-none-any.whl (66 kB) Collecting
>black Downloading black-20.8b1.tar.gz (1.1 MB)
>|| 1.1 MB 16.2 MB/s Installing build
>dependencies ... done Getting requirements to build wheel ... done
>Preparing wheel metadata ... done Collecting pyshortcuts>=1.7
>Downloading pyshortcuts-1.8.0.tar.gz (933 kB)
>|| 933 kB 13.0 MB/s Coll

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

I made a new Debian VM, and I did have to start with installing Leo 6.1 for 
everything to work.  I also had to repeat the installation because it quit 
in the middle the first time, claiming that it was unable to open some 
temporary directory.  Then upgrading to 6.3 succeeded.  

These wierdnesses presumably have something to do with how Debian sets up 
the paths and partitions the various pieces of software; who knows?  But I 
have noticed that Leo launches faster on the Debian VM than on Mint or 
Ubuntu.  I think that's strange.

On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 11:14:50 AM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com wrote:

> tbp1...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 22:38:31 UTC+1:
>
>> I tried downgrading Leo to 6.0, but it still failed with the same error.  
>> Then I downgraded PyQt5 to 5.15.1.  I  then downgraded PyQtWebEngine  - but 
>> spelled all lowercase - also to 5.15.1 and then Leo 6.0 worked.  Then I 
>> upgraded Leo to 6.3 and that worked too.
>>
>> So we can get it working, but there is an error somewhere in the pip 
>> instruction files.
>>
>
> Here's an update from three sessions that I performed this morning.
>
> *Session #1:*
>
> * Starting from Leo version 6.0 directly does not work for me either.
>
> *Session #2:*
>
> * Starting from Leo version 6.1 - and - then upgrading **explicitly** to 
> 6.3 does work.
>
> *Session #3:*
>
> * Explicitely starting with Leo 6.3 does not work.
> * Downgrading to  Leo 6.2.1 does not work either.
> * You need to downgrade all the way to Leo 6.2 to get a first working 
> version.
> * Then you are able to **explicitly** upgrade to a working version of 6.3 
> again ...
>
> ---
> * Note 1: If at the previous step you just type 'pip3 install leo' no 
> error is reported - but - Leo is not upgraded. - You have to explicitely 
> type 'pip3 install leo==6.3' ...
> * Note 2: This time I did not upgrade to pip 21.0.1 - but - used pip 18.1 
> - and - I only got the expected 3 PyQt packages ...
> ---
>
> Again more findings - but - still no concrete idea, why I see this issue 
> only with Debian and not with Fedora ...
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Viktor
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/1f9b4771-0474-43c8-b24e-b3368760caa4n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

tbp1...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 22:38:31 UTC+1:

> I tried downgrading Leo to 6.0, but it still failed with the same error.  
> Then I downgraded PyQt5 to 5.15.1.  I  then downgraded PyQtWebEngine  - but 
> spelled all lowercase - also to 5.15.1 and then Leo 6.0 worked.  Then I 
> upgraded Leo to 6.3 and that worked too.
>
> So we can get it working, but there is an error somewhere in the pip 
> instruction files.
>

Here's an update from three sessions that I performed this morning.

*Session #1:*

* Starting from Leo version 6.0 directly does not work for me either.

*Session #2:*

* Starting from Leo version 6.1 - and - then upgrading **explicitly** to 
6.3 does work.

*Session #3:*

* Explicitely starting with Leo 6.3 does not work.
* Downgrading to  Leo 6.2.1 does not work either.
* You need to downgrade all the way to Leo 6.2 to get a first working 
version.
* Then you are able to **explicitly** upgrade to a working version of 6.3 
again ...

---
* Note 1: If at the previous step you just type 'pip3 install leo' no error 
is reported - but - Leo is not upgraded. - You have to explicitely type 
'pip3 install leo==6.3' ...
* Note 2: This time I did not upgrade to pip 21.0.1 - but - used pip 18.1 - 
and - I only got the expected 3 PyQt packages ...
---

Again more findings - but - still no concrete idea, why I see this issue 
only with Debian and not with Fedora ...

With kind regards,

Viktor

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/38cbefab-41db-4f51-987d-7d60f4587704n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

I tried downgrading Leo to 6.0, but it still failed with the same error.  
Then I downgraded PyQt5 to 5.15.1.  I  then downgraded PyQtWebEngine  - but 
spelled all lowercase - also to 5.15.1 and then Leo 6.0 worked.  Then I 
upgraded Leo to 6.3 and that worked too.

So we can get it working, but there is an error somewhere in the pip 
instruction files.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 4:22:38 PM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com wrote:

> Viktor Ransmayr schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 22:09:20 UTC+1:
>
>> Am Fr., 12. März 2021 um 19:19 Uhr schrieb tbp1...@gmail.com <
>> tbp1...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I just installed a Debian VM.  After installing Leo with pip I got 
>>> exactly the same error message as you.  I don't know what to do with it, 
>>> though.
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 12:29:34 PM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> tbp1...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 15:44:31 UTC+1:
>>>>
>>>>> I can't help directly with Debian, but Leo works fine on my VMs 
>>>>> running both Mint and Ubuntu, which are both Debian-based.  I would have 
>>>>> thought that they use Debian packages directly, but maybe that's not so.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The *PyQt5-Qt5* package that is listed in your list output is 
>>>>> something  I have not seen before.
>>>>>
>>>>> From the error message you got, 
>>>>>
>>>>> This application failed to start because no Qt platform plugin could 
>>>>> be initialized. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if you are running one window manager but the installer 
>>>>> package gave you the setup for a different window manager.  If so, maybe 
>>>>> you can temporarily switch window managers and see if that works.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've not changed / switched the windows manager used in the Debian 10 
>>>> VM at all! 
>>>>
>>>> But you are obviously correct, that the doubly 'PyQt5' as well as 
>>>> 'PyQtWebEngine' packages are very strange.
>>>>
>>>> I'll continue work on it later in the day - and - get back as soon as 
>>>> I've an explanation - or - at least some news ...
>>>>
>>>
>> I have some news - but - no explanation ;-)
>>
>> I tried to install Leo from PyPI via Pip - into the same PyVE - starting 
>> from version 6.0 - and - all of them (i.e. also the latest stable version 
>> 6.3) install - and - WORK properly !!!
>>
>> AFAIKT this problem only occurs, if you try to install Leo from scratch 
>> w/o having any existing 'package dependency history' ...
>>
>
> These are the PyQt related packages which (for whatever reason) work:
>
> PyQt5   5.12.3
> PyQt5-Qt55.15.2
> PyQt5-sip 12.8.1
> PyQtWebEngine   5.12.1
> PyQtWebEngine-Qt55.15.2
>
> As I said: I have news - but - no real explanation yet ...
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Viktor
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/a42e3e69-3a8f-4638-a2f8-d648a8416d69n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Viktor Ransmayr schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 22:09:20 UTC+1:

> Am Fr., 12. März 2021 um 19:19 Uhr schrieb tbp1...@gmail.com <
> tbp1...@gmail.com>:
>
>> I just installed a Debian VM.  After installing Leo with pip I got 
>> exactly the same error message as you.  I don't know what to do with it, 
>> though.
>>
>> On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 12:29:34 PM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> tbp1...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 15:44:31 UTC+1:
>>>
>>>> I can't help directly with Debian, but Leo works fine on my VMs running 
>>>> both Mint and Ubuntu, which are both Debian-based.  I would have thought 
>>>> that they use Debian packages directly, but maybe that's not so.
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The *PyQt5-Qt5* package that is listed in your list output is 
>>>> something  I have not seen before.
>>>>
>>>> From the error message you got, 
>>>>
>>>> This application failed to start because no Qt platform plugin could be 
>>>> initialized. 
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if you are running one window manager but the installer 
>>>> package gave you the setup for a different window manager.  If so, maybe 
>>>> you can temporarily switch window managers and see if that works.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've not changed / switched the windows manager used in the Debian 10 VM 
>>> at all! 
>>>
>>> But you are obviously correct, that the doubly 'PyQt5' as well as 
>>> 'PyQtWebEngine' packages are very strange.
>>>
>>> I'll continue work on it later in the day - and - get back as soon as 
>>> I've an explanation - or - at least some news ...
>>>
>>
> I have some news - but - no explanation ;-)
>
> I tried to install Leo from PyPI via Pip - into the same PyVE - starting 
> from version 6.0 - and - all of them (i.e. also the latest stable version 
> 6.3) install - and - WORK properly !!!
>
> AFAIKT this problem only occurs, if you try to install Leo from scratch 
> w/o having any existing 'package dependency history' ...
>

These are the PyQt related packages which (for whatever reason) work:

PyQt5   5.12.3
PyQt5-Qt55.15.2
PyQt5-sip 12.8.1
PyQtWebEngine   5.12.1
PyQtWebEngine-Qt55.15.2

As I said: I have news - but - no real explanation yet ...

With kind regards,

Viktor

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/34a5093e-e5b3-458b-9f5c-3e034d0a7483n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Am Fr., 12. März 2021 um 19:19 Uhr schrieb tbp1...@gmail.com <
tbp100...@gmail.com>:

> I just installed a Debian VM.  After installing Leo with pip I got exactly
> the same error message as you.  I don't know what to do with it, though.
>
> On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 12:29:34 PM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> tbp1...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 15:44:31 UTC+1:
>>
>>> I can't help directly with Debian, but Leo works fine on my VMs running
>>> both Mint and Ubuntu, which are both Debian-based.  I would have thought
>>> that they use Debian packages directly, but maybe that's not so.
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The *PyQt5-Qt5* package that is listed in your list output is
>>> something  I have not seen before.
>>>
>>> From the error message you got,
>>>
>>> This application failed to start because no Qt platform plugin could be
>>> initialized.
>>>
>>> I wonder if you are running one window manager but the installer package
>>> gave you the setup for a different window manager.  If so, maybe you can
>>> temporarily switch window managers and see if that works.
>>>
>>
>> I've not changed / switched the windows manager used in the Debian 10 VM
>> at all!
>>
>> But you are obviously correct, that the doubly 'PyQt5' as well as
>> 'PyQtWebEngine' packages are very strange.
>>
>> I'll continue work on it later in the day - and - get back as soon as
>> I've an explanation - or - at least some news ...
>>
>
I have some news - but - no explanation ;-)

I tried to install Leo from PyPI via Pip - into the same PyVE - starting
from version 6.0 - and - all of them (i.e. also the latest stable version
6.3) install - and - WORK properly !!!

AFAIKT this problem only occurs, if you try to install Leo from scratch w/o
having any existing 'package dependency history' ...

With kind regards,

Viktor

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/CAAeSrGLH3bMcCfOHmtvQKGRJJeeSzRTieQzr_M3xtdG8MLG1JQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

On line I found a recommendation  to:

export QT_DEBUG_PLUGINS=1

With this set,  there was a lot of output, with this as the first error:

Got keys from plugin meta data ("xcb")
QFactoryLoader::QFactoryLoader() checking directory path 
"/usr/bin/platforms" ...
Cannot load library 
/home/tom/.local/lib/python3.7/site-packages/PyQt5/Qt5/plugins/platforms/libqxcb.so:
 
(libxcb-util.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or 
directory)

But that file actually does exist at the given location, and its file 
permissions would allow it to open and execute by my user.

Online, it seems that others have had this problem with non-python Qt5 
installations.  Several people have found fixes that worked for them but 
not for others.  So far, I don't have a solution but apparently there is 
one to be found.
On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 1:19:27 PM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> I just installed a Debian VM.  After installing Leo with pip I got exactly 
> the same error message as you.  I don't know what to do with it, though.
>
> On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 12:29:34 PM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> tbp1...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 15:44:31 UTC+1:
>>
>>> I can't help directly with Debian, but Leo works fine on my VMs running 
>>> both Mint and Ubuntu, which are both Debian-based.  I would have thought 
>>> that they use Debian packages directly, but maybe that's not so.
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The *PyQt5-Qt5* package that is listed in your list output is 
>>> something  I have not seen before.
>>>
>>> From the error message you got, 
>>>
>>> This application failed to start because no Qt platform plugin could be 
>>> initialized. 
>>>
>>> I wonder if you are running one window manager but the installer package 
>>> gave you the setup for a different window manager.  If so, maybe you can 
>>> temporarily switch window managers and see if that works.
>>>
>>
>> I've not changed / switched the windows manager used in the Debian 10 VM 
>> at all! 
>>
>> But you are obviously correct, that the doubly 'PyQt5' as well as 
>> 'PyQtWebEngine' packages are very strange.
>>
>> I'll continue work on it later in the day - and - get back as soon as 
>> I've an explanation - or - at least some news ...
>>
>> With kind regards,
>>
>> Viktor
>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/b1cda5df-ae6e-4522-81c4-f30187aeccf5n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

I just installed a Debian VM.  After installing Leo with pip I got exactly 
the same error message as you.  I don't know what to do with it, though.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 12:29:34 PM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com wrote:

> tbp1...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 15:44:31 UTC+1:
>
>> I can't help directly with Debian, but Leo works fine on my VMs running 
>> both Mint and Ubuntu, which are both Debian-based.  I would have thought 
>> that they use Debian packages directly, but maybe that's not so.
>>
>> ...
>
>
>>
>> The *PyQt5-Qt5* package that is listed in your list output is something  
>> I have not seen before.
>>
>> From the error message you got, 
>>
>> This application failed to start because no Qt platform plugin could be 
>> initialized. 
>>
>> I wonder if you are running one window manager but the installer package 
>> gave you the setup for a different window manager.  If so, maybe you can 
>> temporarily switch window managers and see if that works.
>>
>
> I've not changed / switched the windows manager used in the Debian 10 VM 
> at all! 
>
> But you are obviously correct, that the doubly 'PyQt5' as well as 
> 'PyQtWebEngine' packages are very strange.
>
> I'll continue work on it later in the day - and - get back as soon as I've 
> an explanation - or - at least some news ...
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Viktor
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/b8cb33ca-2dca-4ecb-b2f6-f5e59de86e26n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

tbp1...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 12. März 2021 um 15:44:31 UTC+1:

> I can't help directly with Debian, but Leo works fine on my VMs running 
> both Mint and Ubuntu, which are both Debian-based.  I would have thought 
> that they use Debian packages directly, but maybe that's not so.
>
> ...
>
> The *PyQt5-Qt5* package that is listed in your list output is something  
> I have not seen before.
>
> From the error message you got, 
>
> This application failed to start because no Qt platform plugin could be 
> initialized. 
>
> I wonder if you are running one window manager but the installer package 
> gave you the setup for a different window manager.  If so, maybe you can 
> temporarily switch window managers and see if that works.
>

I've not changed / switched the windows manager used in the Debian 10 VM at 
all! 

But you are obviously correct, that the doubly 'PyQt5' as well as 
'PyQtWebEngine' packages are very strange.

I'll continue work on it later in the day - and - get back as soon as I've 
an explanation - or - at least some news ...

With kind regards,

Viktor

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/34890b55-471c-4e3b-b062-f4cbc902b335n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Leo on Debian ?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

I can't help directly with Debian, but Leo works fine on my VMs running 
both Mint and Ubuntu, which are both Debian-based.  I would have thought 
that they use Debian packages directly, but maybe that's not so.

On Mint, I have only three Qt packages installed:

$python3 -m pip list |grep "Qt"
PyQt5 5.12.3
PyQt5-sip 12.7.1
PyQtWebEngine 5.12.1

On Ubuntu:

$python3 -m pip list |grep "Qt"
PyQt5 5.15.0
PyQt5-sip 12.8.0
PyQtWebEngine 5.15.0

On my Windows machine:
tom>py38 -m pip list |find "Qt"
PyQt5 5.15.1
PyQt5-sip 12.8.0
PyQtWebEngine 5.12.1

(Edited to remove a few Qt packages that are not Leo-related).

The *PyQt5-Qt5* package that is listed in your list output is something  I 
have not seen before.

>From the error message you got, 

This application failed to start because no Qt platform plugin could be 
initialized. 

I wonder if you are running one window manager but the installer package 
gave you the setup for a different window manager.  If so, maybe you can 
temporarily switch window managers and see if that works.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 7:52:56 AM UTC-5 viktor@gmail.com wrote:

> Hello Leo Community,
>
> ...
> (Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip list
> Package   Version
> - --
> [snip]
> PyQt5 5.15.4
> PyQt5-Qt5 5.15.2
> PyQt5-sip 12.8.1
> PyQtWebEngine 5.15.4
> PyQtWebEngine-Qt5 5.15.2
> [snip]
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/f377c559-3b91-4d18-9a71-3dff1dfb6c91n%40googlegroups.com.

Leo on Debian ?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Hello Leo Community,

Does anyone have Leo successfully running on top of Debian?

Background of my question:

Since more than a year I'm successfully running Leo in various Fedora & 
Windows VMs on top of Qubes OS. - For some reason I now have to use a 
Debian VM - and - obviously would like to continue to use Leo as my 
outliner & notebook.

Unfortunately I failed so far - and - am out of ideas now ...

What did I do so far:

* Failed initially to install Leo on Debian - See "Log-1"
* After upgrading Pip from version 18.1 to 21.0.1 I was able to install the 
stable version of Leo from PyPI - See "Log-2"
* However when I try to start Leo, I get the following error - See "Log-3"

Any ideas what I could try next?

With kind regards,

Viktor

### Logs ... ###

< Start of Log-1 >

user@debian-leo-vm:~$ cd PyVE/PyPI/Leo
user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ source bin/activate
(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip list
Package   Version
- ---
pip   18.1   
pkg-resources 0.0.0  
setuptools40.8.0 
(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install leo
Collecting leo
  Using cached 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/33/15/d8aa24ac5b6acf7c45a2845ec807beea19f16c04f484436a065ba4f7aa54/leo-6.3-py3-none-any.whl
Collecting pyflakes (from leo)
  Downloading 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/69/5b/fd01b0c696f2f9a6d2c839883b642493b431f28fa32b29abc465ef675473/pyflakes-2.2.0-py2.py3-none-any.whl
 
(66kB)
100% || 71kB 3.3MB/s 
Collecting sphinx (from leo)
  Using cached 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/5b/05/982aeff8c88443b296b5896e46daf3f5933e5e54cd0bb086f8e5549655b7/Sphinx-3.5.2-py3-none-any.whl
Collecting PyQt5>=5.12 (from leo)
  Using cached 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/8e/a4/d5e4bf99dd50134c88b95e926d7b81aad2473b47fde5e3e4eac2c69a8942/PyQt5-5.15.4.tar.gz
  Installing build dependencies ... done
Complete output from command python setup.py egg_info:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 1, in 
  File "/usr/lib/python3.7/tokenize.py", line 447, in open
buffer = _builtin_open(filename, 'rb')
FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
'/tmp/pip-install-9nyc5ejh/PyQt5/setup.py'


Command "python setup.py egg_info" failed with error code 1 in 
/tmp/pip-install-9nyc5ejh/PyQt5/
(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ 

< End of Log-1 >

< Start of Log-2 >

(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install pip --upgrade
Cache entry deserialization failed, entry ignored
Collecting pip
  Downloading 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/fe/ef/60d7ba03b5c442309ef42e7d69959f73aacccd0d86008362a681c4698e83/pip-21.0.1-py3-none-any.whl
 
(1.5MB)
100% || 1.5MB 986kB/s 
Installing collected packages: pip
  Found existing installation: pip 18.1
Uninstalling pip-18.1:
      Successfully uninstalled pip-18.1
Successfully installed pip-21.0.1
(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip list
Package   Version
----- ---
pip   21.0.1
pkg-resources 0.0.0
setuptools40.8.0
(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install leo
Collecting leo
  Using cached leo-6.3-py3-none-any.whl (9.7 MB)
Collecting PyQt5>=5.12
  Downloading 
PyQt5-5.15.4-cp36.cp37.cp38.cp39-abi3-manylinux2014_x86_64.whl (8.3 MB)
 || 8.3 MB 3.7 MB/s 
Collecting PyQtWebEngine
  Downloading 
PyQtWebEngine-5.15.4-cp36.cp37.cp38.cp39-abi3-manylinux2014_x86_64.whl (229 
kB)
 || 229 kB 12.9 MB/s 
Collecting asttokens
  Downloading asttokens-2.0.4-py2.py3-none-any.whl (20 kB)
Collecting docutils
  Using cached docutils-0.16-py2.py3-none-any.whl (548 kB)
Collecting sphinx
  Using cached Sphinx-3.5.2-py3-none-any.whl (2.8 MB)
Collecting pyflakes
  Using cached pyflakes-2.2.0-py2.py3-none-any.whl (66 kB)
Collecting black
  Downloading black-20.8b1.tar.gz (1.1 MB)
 || 1.1 MB 16.2 MB/s 
  Installing build dependencies ... done
  Getting requirements to build wheel ... done
Preparing wheel metadata ... done
Collecting pyshortcuts>=1.7
  Downloading pyshortcuts-1.8.0.tar.gz (933 kB)
 || 933 kB 13.0 MB/s 
Collecting nbformat
  Downloading nbformat-5.1.2-py3-none-any.whl (113 kB)
 || 113 kB 12.7 MB/s 
Collecting pylint
  Downloading pylint-2.7.2-py3-none-any.whl (342 kB)
 || 342 kB 10.0 MB/s 
Collecting meta
  Using cached meta-1.0.2.tar.gz (49 kB)
Collecting flexx
  Downloading flexx-0.8.1-py3-none-any.whl (334 kB)
 || 334 kB 13.7 MB/s 
Collecting PyQt5-sip<13,>=12.8
  Downloading PyQt5_sip-12.8.1-cp37-cp37m-manylinux1_x86_64.whl (283 kB)
 |

Leo on Debian?

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Hello Leo Community,

Does anyone have Leo successfully running on top of Debian?

Background of my question:

Since more than a year I'm successfully running Leo in various Fedora & 
Windows VMs on top of Qubes OS. - For some reason I now have to use a 
Debian VM - and - obviously would like to continue to use Leo as my 
outliner & notebook.

Unfortunately I failed so far - and - am out of ideas now ...

What did I do so far:

* Failed initially to install Leo on Debian - See "Log-1"
* After upgrading Pip from version 18.1 to 21.0.1 I was able to install the 
stable version of Leo from PyPI - See "Log-2"
* However when I try to start Leo, I get the following error - See "Log-3"

Any ideas what I could try next?

With kind regards,

Viktor

### Logs ... ###

< Start of Log-1 >

user@debian-leo-vm:~$ cd PyVE/PyPI/Leo user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ 
source bin/activate (Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip list 
Package Version - --- pip 18.1 pkg-resources 0.0.0 
setuptools 40.8.0 (Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install leo 
Collecting leo Using cached 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/33/15/d8aa24ac5b6acf7c45a2845ec807beea19f16c04f484436a065ba4f7aa54/leo-6.3-py3-none-any.whl
 
Collecting pyflakes (from leo) Downloading 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/69/5b/fd01b0c696f2f9a6d2c839883b642493b431f28fa32b29abc465ef675473/pyflakes-2.2.0-py2.py3-none-any.whl
 
(66kB) 100% || 71kB 3.3MB/s Collecting 
sphinx (from leo) Using cached 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/5b/05/982aeff8c88443b296b5896e46daf3f5933e5e54cd0bb086f8e5549655b7/Sphinx-3.5.2-py3-none-any.whl
 
Collecting PyQt5>=5.12 (from leo) Using cached 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/8e/a4/d5e4bf99dd50134c88b95e926d7b81aad2473b47fde5e3e4eac2c69a8942/PyQt5-5.15.4.tar.gz
 
Installing build dependencies ... done Complete output from command python 
setup.py egg_info: Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 
1, in  File "/usr/lib/python3.7/tokenize.py", line 447, in open 
buffer = _builtin_open(filename, 'rb') FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No such 
file or directory: '/tmp/pip-install-9nyc5ejh/PyQt5/setup.py' 
 Command "python setup.py egg_info" 
failed with error code 1 in /tmp/pip-install-9nyc5ejh/PyQt5/ (Leo) 
user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$

< End of Log-1 >

< Start of Log-2 >

(Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install pip --upgrade Cache 
entry deserialization failed, entry ignored Collecting pip Downloading 
https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages/fe/ef/60d7ba03b5c442309ef42e7d69959f73aacccd0d86008362a681c4698e83/pip-21.0.1-py3-none-any.whl
 
(1.5MB) 100% || 1.5MB 986kB/s Installing 
collected packages: pip Found existing installation: pip 18.1 Uninstalling 
pip-18.1: Successfully uninstalled pip-18.1 Successfully installed 
pip-21.0.1 (Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip list Package 
Version ----- --- pip 21.0.1 pkg-resources 0.0.0 setuptools 
40.8.0 (Leo) user@debian-leo-vm:~/PyVE/PyPI/Leo$ pip install leo Collecting 
leo Using cached leo-6.3-py3-none-any.whl (9.7 MB) Collecting PyQt5>=5.12 
Downloading PyQt5-5.15.4-cp36.cp37.cp38.cp39-abi3-manylinux2014_x86_64.whl 
(8.3 MB) || 8.3 MB 3.7 MB/s Collecting 
PyQtWebEngine Downloading 
PyQtWebEngine-5.15.4-cp36.cp37.cp38.cp39-abi3-manylinux2014_x86_64.whl (229 
kB) || 229 kB 12.9 MB/s Collecting 
asttokens Downloading asttokens-2.0.4-py2.py3-none-any.whl (20 kB) 
Collecting docutils Using cached docutils-0.16-py2.py3-none-any.whl (548 
kB) Collecting sphinx Using cached Sphinx-3.5.2-py3-none-any.whl (2.8 MB) 
Collecting pyflakes Using cached pyflakes-2.2.0-py2.py3-none-any.whl (66 
kB) Collecting black Downloading black-20.8b1.tar.gz (1.1 MB) 
|| 1.1 MB 16.2 MB/s Installing build 
dependencies ... done Getting requirements to build wheel ... done 
Preparing wheel metadata ... done Collecting pyshortcuts>=1.7 Downloading 
pyshortcuts-1.8.0.tar.gz (933 kB) || 933 kB 
13.0 MB/s Collecting nbformat Downloading nbformat-5.1.2-py3-none-any.whl 
(113 kB) || 113 kB 12.7 MB/s Collecting 
pylint Downloading pylint-2.7.2-py3-none-any.whl (342 kB) 
|| 342 kB 10.0 MB/s Collecting meta Using 
cached meta-1.0.2.tar.gz (49 kB) Collecting flexx Downloading 
flexx-0.8.1-py3-none-any.whl (334 kB) || 
334 kB 13.7 MB/s Collecting PyQt5-sip<13,>=12.8 Downloading 
PyQt5_sip-12.8.1-cp37-cp37m-manylinux1_x86_64.whl (283 kB) 
|| 283 kB 12.3 MB/s Collecting 
PyQt5-Qt5>=5.15 Downloading 
PyQt5_Qt5-5.15.2-py3-none-manylinux2014_x86_64.whl (59.9 MB) 
|███

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Ville M. Vainio wrote:
 I'm willing to put in some work into making Leo end up in Debian (and
 as a consequence, Ubuntu). It will mean more users (because people
 find projects by browsing whats available in package repos), but I
 think Leo may be ready for that - with the Qt gui, we shouldn't get
 that many complaints about antiquated UI appearance, though general
 flow of newbie questions and complaints (and praise!) will be
 inevitable.

 Here's what needs to happen next:
   
[...]
 - Need to go through the debian bureaucracy (file Intention To
 Package, ask someone to mentor/sponser etc.). I'm not yet sure whether
 this is easier for debian or ubuntu.
   


This is the most frustrating part. Leo is in the repositories of Arch 
Linux already. No bureaucracy here. And is really simply to create a 
recipe for making the last bzr snapshot available for the Arch community.

I know this is an old post, but I want to add more joy in my reading 
just pointing differences like that (but I don't want to start a holly 
war about my distro is better than yours)

Cheers,

Offray

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Seth Johnson]

Hello -- Your comments were rather strange (call that opinion if you wish;
I'll be more specific later), so I felt I needed to defer responding to
them.  Overnight I think I've come to a clear understanding of what to say,
but it will have to wait til perhaps this evening after work.


Seth

On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:


  To have any hope of changing my mind, you would have to explain,
 precisely,
  how the GPL has, in fact, spurred the development of open software.
 
  To the contrary, I think it is obvious that what is driving open software
 is
  not some rebellion against forces of unfreedom.  Instead, it is the
  excitement of working with communities of like-minded people on
 interesting
  projects such as Leo.  It is forums such as this one, and the related
 tools
  in leo-launchpad that creates the community and allows it to flourish.
  In
  this regard, licensing issues are completely irrelevant.

 And as a practical matter, it is the existence of leo-editor on google
 groups and launchpad that makes Leo opens software.  It proclaims,
 much louder than words, that Leo is a collaborative endeavor right
 down to its toes.

 The argument that public domain software is compatible with GPL is
 nonsense.  Assuming your premises, that there are indeed forces of
 unfreedom, public domain software could be used by the forces of
 unfreedom in order to subvert the goals of open software.  You can't
 have it both ways.  If the GPL is somehow, in as-yet-unexplained ways,
 significant, then it *can not* be compatible with permissiveness of
 public domain software.

 So, rather than accusing me of close-mindedness, I suggest you rebut
 my arguments.

 Edward
 


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Ville M. Vainio]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Seth Johnson seth.p.john...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello -- Your comments were rather strange (call that opinion if you wish;
 I'll be more specific later), so I felt I needed to defer responding to
 them.  Overnight I think I've come to a clear understanding of what to say,
 but it will have to wait til perhaps this evening after work.

Arguments about licensing are somewhat futile - they mostly serve to
waste developer time and piss off people. FWIW, I think Leo's license
change to MIT solves the whole problem (i.e. MIT is not ambiguous in
any way, and certainly is free enough for everybody). People that
don't like it can contribute their plugins under GPL license if they
wish, the two licenses are compatible.

OTOH, there are several licenses that are not GPL compatible. As it
stands, you could develop  distribute a leo plugin that used a closed
source library, which would be impossible if Leo was under GPL. Let's
just let this issue rest  move on...

-- 
Ville M. Vainio
http://tinyurl.com/vainio

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Edward K. Ream]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.comwrote:


 Arguments about licensing are somewhat futile - they mostly serve to
 waste developer time and piss off people. FWIW, I think Leo's license
 change to MIT solves the whole problem (i.e. MIT is not ambiguous in
 any way, and certainly is free enough for everybody). People that
 don't like it can contribute their plugins under GPL license if they
 wish, the two licenses are compatible.

 OTOH, there are several licenses that are not GPL compatible. As it
 stands, you could develop  distribute a leo plugin that used a closed
 source library, which would be impossible if Leo was under GPL. Let's
 just let this issue rest  move on...


Thanks for this.  Indeed, I would like to move on.

Edward

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Edward K. Ream]

On Feb 23, 11:00 am, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.comwrote:

  Arguments about licensing are somewhat futile - they mostly serve to
  waste developer time and piss off people. FWIW, I think Leo's license
  change to MIT solves the whole problem (i.e. MIT is not ambiguous in
  any way, and certainly is free enough for everybody). People that
  don't like it can contribute their plugins under GPL license if they
  wish, the two licenses are compatible.

Leo's home page now states that Leo is distributed under the terms of
the MIT license.

Edward
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Seth Johnson seth.p.john...@gmail.comwrote:


 I said that the GPL serves a purpose, and RMS does as well.


On that statement, we shall have to agree to disagree.


 On this topic, apparently you lack the ability to think in any other terms
 than some other argument you'd rather dwell on.


Let's not make this a personal discussion.


 If you had said something like you don't much like the notion of discipline
 as a supposed practical necessity against forces that seek to establish
 unfreedom for code, and as this notion may ostensibly be embodied in the GPL
 or RMS's comportment, then I at least wouldn't think you are simply
 closed-minded on this point.


I see no forces for unfreedom.  Period.  Companies have legitimate rights,
and no amount of extreme left-wing politics changes this fact.

To have any hope of changing my mind, you would have to explain, precisely,
how the GPL has, in fact, spurred the development of open software.

To the contrary, I think it is obvious that what is driving open software is
not some rebellion against forces of unfreedom.  Instead, it is the
excitement of working with communities of like-minded people on interesting
projects such as Leo.  It is forums such as this one, and the related tools
in leo-launchpad that creates the community and allows it to flourish.  In
this regard, licensing issues are completely irrelevant.

Public domain is GPL compatible.  Free and open source licenses clarify that
 you are free as opposed to the default notions of copyright for all
 expressive works under the Berne Convention.  You just need to be sure to
 declare your code is public domain


I'm not going to take your word for this.  This is not a practical issue, it
is a political one, that of satisfying people I would rather not deal with
at all.  And you haven't answered the accusation that GPL or any other
license adds anything *at all* to making code public domain.

I am aware that many people think GPL is somehow important.  The world is
full of crazy ideas that have a lot of adherents.  The correctness of ideas
is not determined by vote.

Edward

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Edward K. Ream]

 To have any hope of changing my mind, you would have to explain, precisely,
 how the GPL has, in fact, spurred the development of open software.

 To the contrary, I think it is obvious that what is driving open software is
 not some rebellion against forces of unfreedom.  Instead, it is the
 excitement of working with communities of like-minded people on interesting
 projects such as Leo.  It is forums such as this one, and the related tools
 in leo-launchpad that creates the community and allows it to flourish.  In
 this regard, licensing issues are completely irrelevant.

And as a practical matter, it is the existence of leo-editor on google
groups and launchpad that makes Leo opens software.  It proclaims,
much louder than words, that Leo is a collaborative endeavor right
down to its toes.

The argument that public domain software is compatible with GPL is
nonsense.  Assuming your premises, that there are indeed forces of
unfreedom, public domain software could be used by the forces of
unfreedom in order to subvert the goals of open software.  You can't
have it both ways.  If the GPL is somehow, in as-yet-unexplained ways,
significant, then it *can not* be compatible with permissiveness of
public domain software.

So, rather than accusing me of close-mindedness, I suggest you rebut
my arguments.

Edward
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[zpcspm]

On Feb 22, 1:22 pm, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:
 I see no forces for unfreedom.  Period.  Companies have legitimate rights,
 and no amount of extreme left-wing politics changes this fact.

Software companies are being run by businessmen. Software companies
exist to make profits. They do not create software. They create
products to be sold for profit. If you use a proprietary program that
you've paid money for, you are not an user. You are a customer. And
you will be treated like a customer. The dudes who sell you software
will aim to suck your money, that's all.

Here is just one example that illustrates what problems can
potentially have a third-party programmer that just wanted to share
his code with other people:

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/01/164254

Of course you can consider me biased. But to me it is really
frustrating to see such a retarded attitude towards a programmer who
doesn't have a profit-centric mentality.

The above is my personal point of view. By no means I'm trying to
influence yours.
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[schryer]

There are plenty of examples where commercial software fills gaps in
the market not covered by open source code, but those gaps are
becoming smaller over time.  I believe that programs that the majority
of computer users require will all become public domain high quality
code in the long run -- Leo as a do it all program fits in this
category.  Programs for very specific purposes will be slower to move
into the public domain, and the role of companies to provide this kind
of software is currently very important.

I agree with Edward in that the principle is more important than the
license, with the corollary being that the license is unimportant so
this argument is a waste of time.  The best license is the one that
attracts the most developers to contribute to leo.  If leo ever wants
to compete with the *big two* editors other people must start
contributing to its functionality.

Please don't waste time discussing issues that only religious people
can relate to, it wastes the valuable time of our benevolent developer
for life.

Regards,
David

On Feb 22, 7:26 pm, zpcspm zpc...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Feb 22, 1:22 pm, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:

  I see no forces for unfreedom.  Period.  Companies have legitimate rights,
  and no amount of extreme left-wing politics changes this fact.

 Software companies are being run by businessmen. Software companies
 exist to make profits. They do not create software. They create
 products to be sold for profit. If you use a proprietary program that
 you've paid money for, you are not an user. You are a customer. And
 you will be treated like a customer. The dudes who sell you software
 will aim to suck your money, that's all.

 Here is just one example that illustrates what problems can
 potentially have a third-party programmer that just wanted to share
 his code with other people:

 http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/01/164254

 Of course you can consider me biased. But to me it is really
 frustrating to see such a retarded attitude towards a programmer who
 doesn't have a profit-centric mentality.

 The above is my personal point of view. By no means I'm trying to
 influence yours.
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 11:26 AM, zpcspm zpc...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Feb 22, 1:22 pm, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:
  I see no forces for unfreedom.  Period.  Companies have legitimate
 rights,
  and no amount of extreme left-wing politics changes this fact.

 Software companies are being run by businessmen. Software companies
 exist to make profits. They do not create software. They create
 products to be sold for profit. If you use a proprietary program that
 you've paid money for, you are not an user. You are a customer. And
 you will be treated like a customer. The dudes who sell you software
 will aim to suck your money, that's all.


Let's be clear, I've been doing open software for 40 years, before the term
open software even existed.  I am not glorifying the profit motive; I'm just
not vilifying it.  The position you express above is extreme.  Repeating it
does not make it true.

But suppose they were true?  What difference would it make?  Open software
would continue to be developed just as it is now.

I will be happy if *anyone* uses Leo.  If they choose to make a successful
product, so much the better!  Leo loses nothing if that happens.  On the
contrary, Leo gains mind share.

Of course you can consider me biased. But to me it is really
 frustrating to see such a retarded attitude towards a programmer who
 doesn't have a profit-centric mentality.


I have said nothing negative about programmers that don't have a
profit-centric mentality.  Why should I?  I am one myself.

I *am* expressing contempt for the typical bogus arguments in favor of the
GPL.  I have stated my reasons.  You have not come close to refuting them.

Edward

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 6:14 AM, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote:


 I'm willing to put in some work into making Leo end up in Debian (and
 as a consequence, Ubuntu). It will mean more users (because people
 find projects by browsing whats available in package repos), but I
 think Leo may be ready for that - with the Qt gui, we shouldn't get
 that many complaints about antiquated UI appearance, though general
 flow of newbie questions and complaints (and praise!) will be
 inevitable.

 Here's what needs to happen next:

 - Manpage (given by man leo) that documents command line arguments


Anyone want to volunteer?  For a list of present options, see
runLeo.py:scanOptions.


 - License fixed (see my previous post)


I'll do this if need be.  But I need much more convincing.


 - Catchy  short description for ./debian/control. At least something
 catchier than 'Leo blah blah' it currently has.


:-)I'm probably not the guy to do this.


 - Stable release. This may mean that everyone should stick to using a
 single version for a while for proper bug testing, without the bzr
 pull addiction everyone here has ;-).


I am working hard to get a stable release by March 31.  I'll create a 4.6
bzr branch a few weeks before the official release that will contain only
last-minute bug fixes.


 - Need to go through the debian bureaucracy (file Intention To
 Package, ask someone to mentor/sponser etc.). I'm not yet sure whether
 this is easier for debian or ubuntu.


Many thanks for your work on this.  I think we must wait at least 2 months
to finish the qt gui work, but wait is hardly the right word.  I'll be
busy...

Edward

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Seth Johnson]

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:


 - License fixed (see my previous post)


 I'll do this if need be.  But I need much more convincing.




I often tell BSD folks that the GPL is like disciplined organizing (like
cadre-based organizations) -- or it's a substitute for that in a general
culture that doesn't much appreciate that sort of thing.  Hard core
organizer types are often abrasive to many people, but discipline and formal
protocols are highly advisable when taking on a suitably large and insidious
foe (which is not capitalism in this case, though I doubt you misunderstand
that about RMS and the free software folks).  I find myself able to get
along well enough with both camps -- and have worked with RMS directly on
numerous occasions, but I attribute that to having done some decidedly
rigorous labor organizing work.  RMS is a very fortunate thing for
computer logic liberation -- perhaps in large measure because of a condition
which he has acknowledged on more than several occasions that he might have,
he has provided the intensely principled activity and leadership for 20
years that most people don't really understand the fundamental importance
of.  I've been at the receiving end of RMS's intensity numerous times, but I
have never, ever seen that in anything but the most appreciative spirit.  We
really owe so much to the guy, and specifically to his intensely
principled -- if you want to see that as an euphemism, then so be it --
approach to life and his cause, as well as to the singularly powerful
reverse jiu jitsu of the GPL.

If you can appreciate that the GPL serves a special purpose, you might find
more avenues for accommodation, I don't know . . .


Seth

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Seth Johnson]

 On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com
wrote:

 - License fixed (see my previous post)

 I'll do this if need be.  But I need much more convincing.


I often tell BSD folks that the GPL is like disciplined organizing (like
cadre-based organizations) -- or it's a substitute for that in a general
culture that doesn't much appreciate that sort of thing.

I find that intensely BSD-side folks tend to respond helpfully to that
framing (not that you're a BSD partisan, but the BSD/GPL confrontation
betokens the core issues surrounding people's views of the GPL, the FSF and
RMS very well).

Hard core organizer types are often abrasive to many people, but discipline
and formal protocols are highly advisable when taking on a suitably large
and insidious foe (which is not capitalism in this case, though I doubt you
misunderstand that about RMS and the free software folks).

I find myself able to get along well enough with both camps -- and have
worked with RMS directly on numerous occasions -- but I attribute that in
large part to having done some decidedly rigorous labor organizing.

RMS, the person in his totality, is a very fortunate thing for computer
logic liberation and post-Enlightenment society in the age of ubiquitous
computing (and connectivity) -- perhaps in large measure because of a
condition which he has acknowledged on more than several occasions that he
might have: whatever else anyone might say, he has provided the intensely
principled activity and leadership for 20 years that most people don't
really understand the fundamental importance of.

I've been at the receiving end of RMS's intensity numerous times, but I have
never, ever seen that in anything but the most appreciative spirit.  We
really owe so much to the guy, and specifically to his intensely
principled -- if you want to see that as an euphemism, then so be it --
approach to life and his cause, as well as to the singularly powerful
reverse jiu jitsu of the GPL.

If you can appreciate that the GPL serves a special purpose, you might find
more avenues for accommodation, I don't know . .

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Seth Johnson]

 On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com
wrote:

 - License fixed (see my previous post)

 I'll do this if need be.  But I need much more convincing.


I often tell BSD folks that the GPL is like disciplined organizing (like
cadre-based organizations) -- or it's a substitute for that in a general
culture that doesn't much appreciate that sort of thing.

I find that intensely BSD-side folks tend to respond helpfully to that
framing (not that you're a BSD partisan, but the BSD/GPL confrontation
betokens the core issues surrounding people's views of the GPL, the FSF and
RMS very well).

Hard core organizer types are often abrasive to many people, but discipline
and formal protocols are highly advisable when taking on a suitably large
and insidious foe (which is not capitalism in this case, though I doubt you
misunderstand that about RMS and the free software folks).

I find myself able to get along well enough with both camps -- and have
worked with RMS directly on numerous occasions -- but I attribute that in
large part to having done some decidedly rigorous labor organizing.

RMS, the person in his totality, is a very fortunate thing for computer
logic liberation and post-Enlightenment society in the age of ubiquitous
computing (and connectivity) -- perhaps in large measure because of a
condition which he has acknowledged on more than several occasions that he
might have: whatever else anyone might say, he has provided the intensely
principled activity and leadership for 20 years that most people don't
really understand the fundamental importance of.

I've been at the receiving end of RMS's intensity numerous times, but I have
never, ever seen that in anything but the most appreciative spirit.  We
really owe so much to the guy, and specifically to his intensely
principled -- if you want to see that as an euphemism, then so be it --
approach to life and his cause, as well as to the singularly powerful
reverse jiu jitsu of the GPL.

If you can appreciate that the GPL serves a special purpose, you might find
more avenues for accommodation, I don't know . .

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Edward K. Ream]

On Feb 21, 2:26 pm, Seth Johnson seth.p.john...@gmail.com wrote:

 I often tell BSD folks that the GPL is like disciplined organizing (like
 cadre-based organizations)

I am not going to waste time arguing.  I agree with none of this.

Leo benefits in no way from the GPL or any other Open Software
license.  To repeat, I would be happy to put Leo in the public domain,
were it not for control freaks who think that public domain code is
somehow less free than copyrighted code.  That's pure rubbish.

Edward
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

Re: Getting Leo to Debian/Ubuntu

[Seth Johnson]

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Edward K. Ream edream...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Feb 21, 2:26 pm, Seth Johnson seth.p.john...@gmail.com wrote:

  I often tell BSD folks that the GPL is like disciplined organizing (like
  cadre-based organizations)

 I am not going to waste time arguing.  I agree with none of this.



Huh.  Just try telling me just what part of what I actually said you
actually disagree with.  Note that I said exactly nothing at all about
public domain or the GPL or any other license being more or less free.  I
said that the GPL serves a purpose, and RMS does as well.

On this topic, apparently you lack the ability to think in any other terms
than some other argument you'd rather dwell on.

If you had said something like you don't much like the notion of discipline
as a supposed practical necessity against forces that seek to establish
unfreedom for code, and as this notion may ostensibly be embodied in the GPL
or RMS's comportment, then I at least wouldn't think you are simply
closed-minded on this point.

Leo benefits in no way from the GPL or any other Open Software
 license.  To repeat, I would be happy to put Leo in the public domain,
 were it not for control freaks who think that public domain code is
 somehow less free than copyrighted code.  That's pure rubbish.



Public domain is GPL compatible.  Free and open source licenses clarify that
you are free as opposed to the default notions of copyright for all
expressive works under the Berne Convention.  You just need to be sure to
declare your code is public domain


Seth

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
leo-editor group.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---