Re: About org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Arjan  wrote:

> ​Suppose Leo supported a V2 outline pane that shows
>> ​ ​
>> zero or more body panes, embedded (somehow!) in the Qt outline.
>>
>
> That sounds  very interesting. In that case, would the regular body pane
> be hidden for this mode of operation?
>

​That's the idea, yes.  I may play around with this in a new plugin, but
that's for later.
Edward

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Re: About org mode

[Arjan]

>
> ​Suppose Leo supported a V2 outline pane that shows
> ​ ​
> zero or more body panes, embedded (somehow!) in the Qt outline.
>

That sounds  very interesting. In that case, would the regular body pane be 
hidden for this mode of operation?

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Re: About org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:

>> So, what would be great is to be able to mark e.g. a chapter or section
node with a
​​
n option "include all child nodes in the chapter's body pane in outline
order", with the ability to edit the child nodes' contents directly.

​Suppose Leo supported a V2 outline pane that shows
​ ​
zero or more body panes, embedded (somehow!) in the Qt outline.

Behind the scenes, almost everything would remain the same:

- Exactly one node, c.p, is the selected node.
- Exactly one body pane, c.frame.body, is selected.

​Obviously, this would be a major project, but it's conceivable.

Edward

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Re: About org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 11:08:49 AM UTC-6, Arjan wrote:

...two further desiderata based on org mode's capabilities
>
> 1. Support for tabular data inside the body pane.
>

A new table.py plugin will do this.

2. In OrgMode, outline structure and content are in the same pane.
>

This is really the key design difference between Leo and emacs/org-mode. I 
have been meaning to write about it. Here are my thoughts:

There are obvious advantages to org mode's operation. Behind the scenes, 
there is only one pane/widget/window, whatever you want to call it.

Would I use the org mode way if I had it to do all over again, knowing what 
I know now about the difficulties involved? Hard to say, but I like the 
separation of outline view and body pane. In Leo, the body pane is *always* 
visible, and I think that's important.

Otoh, an everything-in-one pane design works very well with Emacs's 
"windowing" system. It would be foolish to criticize it much.
 

> Leo's strength derives from the outline capabilities, so you have to put 
> small units of information in nodes to benefit from that, and that means 
> you can only see one small piece of information at a time **while working 
> on the text / information**.
>

Interesting.  I never thought of that benefit to the org mode way.
 

> So, what would be great is to be able to mark e.g. a chapter or section 
> node with an option "include all child nodes in the chapter's body pane in 
> outline order", with the ability to edit the child nodes' contents 
> directly. Probably far-fetched, but I can dream, right? ;)
>

Something like that has been proposed before. I ignored it then, and I 
don't like your specific proposal much.  But a more general solution is 
interesting, namely one-pane operation, just like org mode. Visually, this 
would be a radical departure for Leo. There would also be large adjustments 
behind the scenes. But everything is possible, given enough effort...

Edward

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Re: About org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 4:26:44 PM UTC-6, Israel Hands wrote:

> for me the killer dimension of org-mode is the Agenda view

Leo must have an agenda plugin, possibly based on Terry's todo plugin.

>Auctex...kept me on Emacs.

Leo must have an easy way of rendering Latex and other symbols in the body 
pane.

Edward

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Re: About org mode

[john lunzer]

1. Agree, auto-formatting tabular data in Org-mode is one of the central 
features.

2. I will go back to my "continuous edit pane" idea. I think if you really 
want to recreate Org-mode and make it attractive to those familiar with 
Org-mode there must be a "continuous edit pane" mode for Leo.

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 12:08:49 PM UTC-5, Arjan wrote:
>
> This sounds great! I would add two further desiderata based on orgmode's 
> capabilities (though I don't know if they are feasible).
>
> 1. Support for tabular data inside the body pane. In orgmode capturing 
> some tabular data is as easy as writing "| column a | column b |" etc.; you 
> can navigate columns with tab, columns adapt their width to the content, 
> and it is structure-aware, e.g. you can export tables to CSV/Excel. Perhaps 
> something like "@language csv" (or tab-separated @language tsv) could be 
> Leo's answer?
>
> 2. In OrgMode, outline structure and content are in the same pane. You can 
> expand all hierarchies and directly see and work on all the text in context 
> (i.e. see the contents of preceding and following headings). I've started 
> using Leo for writing and as information-manager, but this is really the 
> biggest thing holding me back to use it for everything. Leo's strength 
> derives from the outline capabilities, so you have to put small units of 
> information in nodes to benefit from that, and that means you can only see 
> one small piece of information at a time **while working on the text / 
> information**.
> So, what would be great is to be able to mark e.g. a chapter or section 
> node with an option "include all child nodes in the chapter's body pane in 
> outline order", with the ability to edit the child nodes' contents 
> directly. Probably far-fetched, but I can dream, right? ;)
>
> All best,
>
> Arjan
>

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Re: About org mode

[Arjan]

This sounds great! I would add two further desiderata based on orgmode's 
capabilities (though I don't know if they are feasible).

1. Support for tabular data inside the body pane. In orgmode capturing some 
tabular data is as easy as writing "| column a | column b |" etc.; you can 
navigate columns with tab, columns adapt their width to the content, and it 
is structure-aware, e.g. you can export tables to CSV/Excel. Perhaps 
something like "@language csv" (or tab-separated @language tsv) could be 
Leo's answer?

2. In OrgMode, outline structure and content are in the same pane. You can 
expand all hierarchies and directly see and work on all the text in context 
(i.e. see the contents of preceding and following headings). I've started 
using Leo for writing and as information-manager, but this is really the 
biggest thing holding me back to use it for everything. Leo's strength 
derives from the outline capabilities, so you have to put small units of 
information in nodes to benefit from that, and that means you can only see 
one small piece of information at a time **while working on the text / 
information**.
So, what would be great is to be able to mark e.g. a chapter or section 
node with an option "include all child nodes in the chapter's body pane in 
outline order", with the ability to edit the child nodes' contents 
directly. Probably far-fetched, but I can dream, right? ;)

All best,

Arjan

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Re: About org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 4:21:20 PM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

> Leo [must] have *everything* that org-mode has.

Leo's to-do list now contains the following:

- Steal everything useful from org mode:
- Agenda.
- Text drawers replace uA's.
- Rendering of Latex, etc. in Leo's body pane.
- Better support for shell console & scripts.
- Better support for make, C, C++, Java, etc.

- Support .org files and .org.leo files.

The results will be better, because of Leo's API, DOM and python language. 
Otoh, org mode is now entrenched. Leo won't change that. To keep Leo viable 
it must be easy to convert between Leo outlines and org mode outlines.

Edward

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Re: About org mode

[Israel Hands]

Hi EKR - I am a very lightweight user of both Leo and org-mode - for me the 
killer dimension of org-mode is the Agenda view with the integrated diary 
and the ability of org-mode to throw up reminder dialogues. For me at least 
todo lists tend to be dead letter unless they reach out to me.  The ability 
to hold todo items and diary items together is the gold and means EMACS is 
the first thing I run - just before Leo.  
While we are on the topic of what keeps us in different places Auctex is 
probably the other thing or was the other thing that kept me on Emacs 
however I now use Scrivener MMD compiled to Latex - I feel bad about this. 
Scrivener has lots of nice features but I know that Leo would be better 
it's just a matter of the set up learning curve.  A really easy Latex set 
up would be another winner. 


IH

On Friday, 10 February 2017 22:21:20 UTC, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> I finished watching this superb video about org-mode 
>  earlier today.  I took 
> copious notes.
>
> It has inspired many thoughts, and will continue to do so. I expect this 
> conversation to be long lasting and fruitful.  Some *brief* first 
> thoughts:
>
> 1. The demo looked off the cuff. Each topic had its own org-mode "page" 
> containing the script for that page. It looks like Camtasia did the post 
> production. This is a perfectly reasonable, perhaps superior, alternative 
> to totally controlled demos using demo-it.el or demo.py.
>
> 2. After the first few minutes, the presentation had almost nothing to do 
> with outlines!
>
> 3. The demo shows that Leo must have better rendering *in the body pane, 
> not* a separate rendering pane.
>
> 4. Imo, the real difference between Leo and Emacs lies differing 
> approaches to multiple buffers and screen real estate. Both ways have 
> pluses and minuses.  Discussing the nuances should be fascinating.
>
> 5. Leo can (and will) soon have *everything* that org-mode has. Otoh, 
> that will likely not be enough to cause an exodus from Emacs to Leo.  
> Still, Leo has features that org-mode will likely never have. It reminds me 
> of the song, Anything you can do, I can do better 
> .
>
> More to come later.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: About org mode

[Largo84]

I would love to be able to do most of what he demonstrated in that video 
with Leo and org-mode. Maybe I can now, but just haven't figured out how 
yet. Great stuff!

BTW, search the Leo web site documentation for `org-mode` and nothing comes 
up. However, search for `org mode' and several results come up. Very 
weird...

Rob..

On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 5:21:20 PM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> I finished watching this superb video about org-mode 
>  earlier today.  I took 
> copious notes.
>
>
>

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Re: About org mode

[jkn]

Hi Edward

FWIW (I haven't watched the whole video yet), the early parts of this 
reminded me a lot of the 'Origami' Editor for the Transputer Development 
System (TDS)

The Tab/Alt-TAB action of Origami to enter/leave 'integrated' outlines was 
terribly fast and intuitive.

Origami is history these days but it might still be worth a play for 
insight. I ill try to find a link to a binary which works on recent systems.

Regards
Jon N




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