Re: [lfs-support] LFS 7.2 is released

[Oshadha Gunawardena]

Great..!

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Toby Ferguson wrote:

> Congratulations. I've been waiting to give this whole LFS thing a try -
> perhaps now I shall.
>
> Toby
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Bruce Dubbs  wrote:
>
>> The Linux From Scratch community is pleased to announce the release of
>> LFS Version 7.2. It is a major release with toolchain updates to both
>> glibc-2.16.0 and gcc-4.7.1. In total, 28 packages were updated from
>> LFS-7.1 and changes to bootscripts and text have been made throughout
>> the book.
>>
>> You can read the book online at
>> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/7.2/, or download to read
>> locally from http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/downloads/7.2/.
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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[lfs-support] LFS Book 7 | chapter 7 what to ignore

[Oshadha Gunawardena]

Ok, so I managed to do up to the chapter 6 and now reading through the
chapter 7. In section 7.2 it says that I can ignore this section if I only
has one network interface, so basically the entire section 7.2 I can ignore
(7.2.1, 7.2.2, 7.2.3). And my question is doesn't this section 7.2 relates
to section 7.3 or further? Or the sections are not related in their own
context.

Thanks,
Oshadha.
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Re: [lfs-support] LFS Book 7 | chapter 7 what to ignore

[spiky]

On 02/09/12 11:05, Oshadha Gunawardena wrote:
Ok, so I managed to do up to the chapter 6 and now reading through the 
chapter 7. In section 7.2 it says that I can ignore this section if I 
only has one network interface, so basically the entire section 7.2 I 
can ignore (7.2.1, 7.2.2, 7.2.3). And my question is doesn't this 
section 7.2 relates to section 7.3 or further? Or the sections are not 
related in their own context.


Thanks,
Oshadha.



It dose say

This section only applies if a network card is to be configured.

_If a network card will not be used_, there is likely no need to create 
any configuration files relating to network cards. If that is the case, 
remove the |network| symlinks from all run-level directories 
(|/etc/rc.d/rc*.d|)


will you be using a network?

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Re: [lfs-support] LFS Book 7 | chapter 7 what to ignore

[Oshadha Gunawardena]

I'm not using any network cards specifically.

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 3:41 PM, spiky  wrote:

>  On 02/09/12 11:05, Oshadha Gunawardena wrote:
>
> Ok, so I managed to do up to the chapter 6 and now reading through the
> chapter 7. In section 7.2 it says that I can ignore this section if I only
> has one network interface, so basically the entire section 7.2 I can ignore
> (7.2.1, 7.2.2, 7.2.3). And my question is doesn't this section 7.2 relates
> to section 7.3 or further? Or the sections are not related in their own
> context.
>
> Thanks,
> Oshadha.
>
>
>  It dose say
>
>  This section only applies if a network card is to be configured.
>
> *If a network card will not be used*, there is likely no need to create
> any configuration files relating to network cards. If that is the case,
> remove the network symlinks from all run-level directories (
> /etc/rc.d/rc*.d)
>
> will you be using a network?
>
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Re: [lfs-support] LFS Book 7 | chapter 7 what to ignore

[spiky]

On 02/09/12 11:30, Oshadha Gunawardena wrote:

I'm not using any network cards specifically.

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 3:41 PM, spiky > wrote:


On 02/09/12 11:05, Oshadha Gunawardena wrote:

Ok, so I managed to do up to the chapter 6 and now reading
through the chapter 7. In section 7.2 it says that I can ignore
this section if I only has one network interface, so basically
the entire section 7.2 I can ignore (7.2.1, 7.2.2, 7.2.3). And my
question is doesn't this section 7.2 relates to section 7.3 or
further? Or the sections are not related in their own context.

Thanks,
Oshadha.



It dose say

This section only applies if a network card is to be configured.

_If a network card will not be used_, there is likely no need to
create any configuration files relating to network cards. If that
is the case, remove the |network| symlinks from all run-level
directories (|/etc/rc.d/rc*.d|)

will you be using a network?


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If no network then you wont need that section then as there is nothing 
to setup also chapter 7.3 is not needed
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Re: [lfs-support] Grub Questions (or how to waist yet ... even more ... precious electrons)

[Eleanore Boyd]

On 9/1/2012 10:15 PM, Ben Sutter wrote:
> On 09/01/2012 06:49 PM, Eleanore Boyd wrote:
>> On a much more serious note, why are you bashing him for
>> condescension when your reply was even worse in that regard?
> I'm "bashing" him for not doing his homework. Sometimes condescension is
> earned; I didn't jump on him after his first post that should never have
> happened in the first place, or the second or third. As for severity, I
> disagree. He has a trail of replies on this list, like these...
>
> Mikie wrote, at various times:
>
>> what section is this magical step located?
> ...rather than using Ctrl-F to search the book for the exact command and
> finding it on the first try, no googling required.
>
>> you must all realize that many of us "Beginners" are just that.
>> A lot of people who are experts at something forget what it's like to
> be a beginner.
>
>> The fact is, we beginners will continue to miss things even though
> they are in the book.
>
> That's true, for some definitions of "miss." A better word is "ignore."
>
>> LFS does not effectively teach this to anyone other than an already
> Linux expert.
>> ... and please don't complain to me to Google for another site that is
> more suitable for a beginner cause there ain't no such thing people.
>
>> This is the problem when one becomes expertly knowledgeable on a
> subject as most (if not all) of you are.
>> You forget that the rest of us simply don't know what you're talking
> about.
>> These quick little blerps in the book don't really do anything for us
> newbie's to intermediates.
>
> "Quick little blerps"? I think this one takes the prize. Wow, just wow.
>
>> Was it really so painful to exchange three or four emails?
>> ... on an email list that purports to teach?
>> ... Oh cry for the lost electrons!.
> And so on, all the way up to his most recent lecture on how mailing
> lists should work, according to him.
>
> Perhaps I chose the wrong word. In hindsight, privileged and snarky
> probably would have been more accurate. But aside from that one word,
> I stand by the rest of my post.
>
> Back to what Elly wrote:
>> Frankly, I think that he's one of the people who just so happens to
>> have very little luck with search engines when he needs a simple (or
>> complex) answers dealing with Linux.
> I don't think luck has anything to do with it. I think it's laziness and
> an inability or unwillingness to follow directions. Just a few hours ago
> when you suggested he try remastering an existing distro, instead of
> typing "remaster linux distro" into Google, he came back with,
> "ummm ... how do I do that again?"
>
>> Besides, have you bothered to read these results from his perspective?
> Yup. But our paths diverge quite quickly. For example, Mikie would reply
> with "What does the -c do?", whereas I would execute "man bash" and
> discover that -c is documented on the first page in all but the tiniest
> of terminals.
>
>> He's all but just starting out in a world that's drastically different
>> from the familiar Windows environment he's used to.
> Setting aside the question of whether someone with his skills and
> experience should even attempt an LFS build in the first place, I'm not
> criticizing him for being unfamiliar with Linux, but that he continues
> to try to build LFS by the seat of his pants and ignore basic
> instructions, leading to endless questions that might very well not
> come up if he were to start over and follow the book, even as a n00b.
>
> In any case, for my part I will leave this Mikie business at that and
> apologize to the other list members for lowering the signal to noise ratio.
>
> I see LFS 7.2 is out. It's time to start my first LFS build.
>
> --Ben
>
You pretty much validated what I said. And with saying that this is 
going to be your first LFS build, you've shown you're new to it. I 
wouldn't be surprised to find several emails from you complaining about 
something not working.

Oh, and don't actually try to reply, as your address will now be blocked.

Elly
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Re: [lfs-support] Boot message log location

[Mikie]

Thanks Elly.

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Re: [lfs-support] LFS Book 7 | chapter 7 what to ignore

[Bruce Dubbs]

Oshadha Gunawardena wrote:
> Ok, so I managed to do up to the chapter 6 and now reading through the
> chapter 7. In section 7.2 it says that I can ignore this section if I only
> has one network interface, so basically the entire section 7.2 I can ignore
> (7.2.1, 7.2.2, 7.2.3).

If you don't have *any* network card, you can ignore 7.2.x.  If you have 
*one* network card, you can skip 7.2.1.

   -- Bruce
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Re: [lfs-support] Grub Questions (or how to waist yet ... even more ... precious electrons)

[Mikie]

I promise you all I am responding because I really believe what I am about to 
say is very relevant to LFS and what LFS intends to do which is teach Linux.
Before I make one more attempt to clarify I wanted to make a few statements to 
make sure my reply won't be misunderstood.
I promise this will be my last reply on the subject and anyone who feels it 
necessary, can have the last word.

I am a 48 year old IT (Windows Cisco) & Automation Systems Engineer.
I've got a pretty good head on my shoulders ... I know how to Google and I 
spend hours a day there.

One of the additional skills I have, that I particularly excel at ... is 
teaching.
I was my companies Trainer and ran our 3500 sq feet training center teaching 
Windows and our BAS automation system for nearly 14 years.

Bottom line is ... I know teaching.

I would love to volunteer to supplement LFS with a starting place to help 
newbie's get to where they could do LFS and not get so frustrated and frustrate 
you folks.
If I could get some commitment from at least one person I would put at least 6 
month into it.

For some reason the Unix/Linux community are the worst at explaining things and 
have the least patience when their first response is not enough.


To respond to your points Ben ... I have Googled and it's pretty much the same 
problem everywhere I look.
I searched yesterday for Grub and got tons of pages where the author wrote:

ok ... the command to install Grub is grub-install /dev/sda ... 

... then do this step ... then do that step ...

This is exactly like LFS and every Linux article I find for the most part.
... and there is nothing wrong with LFS it's a great thing for advanced people 
and there are lots of great things out there for advanced Linux people but 
there is this great trench between people at my skill level and LFS and the 
other great Linux sites that no one seems to want to touch.

There just isn't a whole lot out there to get someone from beginner to advanced 
and it's probably because all the Unix/Linux "RTFM crowd" don't have the 
patience.
What irritates me is they wonder why most people use Windows and not Linux.



One of the most important skills needed to teach other than patience is how to 
judge where a person's current understanding is.

For example ... someone might ask me ... "help me ... I want a cookie".
... and I would probably say "the cookies are on the shelf in the next room".

Most people would go back to what they were doing and assume that is enough ... 
problem solved.

... but for many people that is not enough.

The person may then ask, "how do I get the cookies?"
"Well", you might say, "it's thru the door and on the shelf in the next room".

... and if you look at them, you can develop a skill whereby you sense their 
confusion and break it down even more.

So you say, "walk to the door ... place your hand on the knob ... turn it to 
the left ... pull it open ... walk thru ... and look for the shelf to the 
right".
"The cookie jar is red and you have to lift the lid to get the cookie".

Everyone has the right to say, "I don't have time to explain that ... I'm' 
busy".
Or not even respond to the email in the first place.
No one should have a problem with either of those responses.
I don't.
I will simply go somewhere else and ask.



>I don't think luck has anything to do with it. I think it's laziness and an 
>inability or unwillingness to follow directions. Just a few hours ago when you 
>suggested he try remastering an existing distro, instead of typing "remaster 
>linux distro" into Google, he came back with, "ummm ... how do I do that 
>again?"

Ben ... I was making the point that Elly had a great idea but that I did not 
know how to do that.
... and like I said not too many good articles that teach someone how to do 
something rather than give them a blind recipe to follow.
You know what the people on the re-master list would probably say?
They would say "try LFS ... this re-master list is too complicated for you".

That is how I got to LFS in the first place and that was 10 years ago.


>> Besides, have you bothered to read these results from his perspective?

>Yup. But our paths diverge quite quickly. For example, Mikie would reply with 
>"What does the -c do?", whereas I would execute "man bash" and discover that 
>-c is documented on the first page in all but the tiniest of terminals.

Ben ... what's man bash?
You assume that I am lazy because I don't know what man bashing is (although I 
am sure I would go to jail if I bashed a man).
This comment goes exactly to what I am saying.
I have since searched and now know that there is this wonderful thing called 
man pages ... so I get it, but I didn't have a clue then.
Nobody responded so I dropped it.

I agree with you, in that, I would not have responded with an explanation of 
what -c does or is ... but you know what I would have done?
I would have said "Mikie ... here is a g

Re: [lfs-support] The learning process

[Bruce Dubbs]

Mikie wrote:

> I would love to volunteer to supplement LFS with a starting place to
> help newbie's get to where they could do LFS and not get so
> frustrated and frustrate you folks. If I could get some commitment
> from at least one person I would put at least 6 month into it.

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/hints/howtowrite.html

> ok ... the command to install Grub is grub-install /dev/sda ...

I agree with you.  The information you wanted is not easily found by 
google.  The only way I found it was to read code.

Actually, I first disassembled the MBR somewhere around 1988 (plain DOS 
at the time, but I wanted to split the partitions to load Minix) to 
learn how it worked and modify it.  GRUB does basically the same thing 
as the process then, but at least it is open source and you only need to 
go to the source to read the code.

There are a lot of similar questions that can be asked.  How does X 
work?  How does the kernel work?  Samba?  TCP/IP?  etc.  In some cases 
there are whole books written.  In some cases, there is only code.

> This is exactly like LFS and every Linux article I find for the most
> part. ... and there is nothing wrong with LFS it's a great thing for
> advanced people and there are lots of great things out there for
> advanced Linux people but there is this great trench between people
> at my skill level and LFS and the other great Linux sites that no one
> seems to want to touch.

It's not clear to me that you read Section vi. Prerequisites.

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/prologue/prerequisites.html

> There just isn't a whole lot out there to get someone from beginner
> to advanced and it's probably because all the Unix/Linux "RTFM crowd"
> don't have the patience. What irritates me is they wonder why most
> people use Windows and not Linux.

I don't wonder at all.  Windows is taught in schools from the elementary 
level up.  There is a multi-billion dollar company advertising all the 
time.  Linux has no significant advertising.

In college, the only place Linux is really taught is in the CS 
Department and maybe the Engineering Department.  The MIS school does 
Windows.  Most people don't know what a command line is or what it does.

Of course, no one shows you how to build a Windows system from scratch.

One of the most important skills (or talents) is to be able to 
visualize.  Many people can't look at code or a command line and 
visualize what it does.  For a project like LFS, that's important.

> One of the most important skills needed to teach other than patience
> is how to judge where a person's current understanding is.

Or desire to learn.  Ohh, that's math.  It's too hard.  I don't want to 
do that.  Yes, I have direct experience teaching LFS.  No matter how 
many explanations are given, the learning depends on the desire.

> For example ... someone might ask me ... "help me ... I want a
> cookie". ... and I would probably say "the cookies are on the shelf
> in the next room".
>
> Most people would go back to what they were doing and assume that is
> enough ... problem solved.
>
> ... but for many people that is not enough.
>
> The person may then ask, "how do I get the cookies?" "Well", you
> might say, "it's thru the door and on the shelf in the next room".
>
> ... and if you look at them, you can develop a skill whereby you
> sense their confusion and break it down even more.
>
> So you say, "walk to the door ... place your hand on the knob ...
> turn it to the left ... pull it open ... walk thru ... and look for
> the shelf to the right". "The cookie jar is red and you have to lift
> the lid to get the cookie".

That's why there is a target audience.  You need to satisfy the 
prerequisites.  You don't teach Calculus before Algebra and you don't 
teach Algebra before addition.

-- Bruce

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[lfs-support] Grub Questions (or how to waist yet ... even more ... precious electrons)

[alex lupu]

Hi Mikie,

I hate to toot my own horn, but I'm a teacher too.
However, unlike you my specialty is posting
so I'm volunteering my 1st lesson (to whet people's
appetite to subscribe to my newsletter - for a small fee).

Lesson #1
A post should have lines not greater than 79 characters.
In other words, when the author examines the text as displayed
at the destination (in this case, lfs-support Archives)
there should be no horizontal scroll-bar present nor should it
be needed to display the remainder of a line.

Like you, I'm also longing for the good old days when as
Archie and Edith would put it, "vt220's were vt220's and
men were men" and I might add a line was an 80-character
line (max).

I know that cisco editors have to account now for the latest in
display resolutions, like 2560×1440 or more, but pretending you're
still in the good old teletypewriter days (vi for Unix/Linux
or Notepad for Windows) and hitting a strategic Enter when the
text seems to visually get closer to 80 characters solves this
requirement very easily and cleanly, even when the line
of _thought_ tends to go on and on forever (like this one).

Cheers (cisco is on the recovery path, I hear),
-- Alex
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Re: [lfs-support] Grub Questions (or how to waist yet ... even more ... precious electrons)

[Bruce Dubbs]

alex lupu wrote:

> A post should have lines not greater than 79 characters.

Yes, that's good, but many times what you see is due to the mail client. 
  Often the client posts in HTML.  For the most compatibility, it's much 
better to post in plain text only.  Personally, I don't think there is 
ever a need to post something in HTML.  If format is really that 
necessary, do it as an attachment.

Usually, I can do Edit -> Rewrap and get a reasonable format, so I tend 
to not complain unless the post requires a line-by-line manual reformat. 
  That did happen fairly recently.

   -- Bruce
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[lfs-support] booting LFS

[Garrett Gaston]

I finished LFS but it will not boot. When powering on the computer I get a boot 
screen showing one option,  "GNU/Linux, Linux 3.2.6-lfs-7.1". When selected 
with ENTER I get "Press any key to continue", then it goes back to the same 
boot screen with the same option. Any ideas.
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Re: [lfs-support] booting LFS

[Bruce Dubbs]

Garrett Gaston wrote:
>
> I finished LFS but it will not boot. When powering on the computer I
> get a boot screen showing one option,  "GNU/Linux, Linux
> 3.2.6-lfs-7.1". When selected with ENTER I get "Press any key to
> continue", then it goes back to the same boot screen with the same
> option. Any ideas.

Not really without more information.  Try posting your grub.cfg file.

Also from the GRUB menu, type 'c' to go to the command line and type 'ls 
/boot' assuming that you put the kernel in /boot.

Also please describe the host system and disk layout.

   -- Bruce


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Re: [lfs-support] booting LFS

[Garrett Gaston]

I haven't yet fixed Debian's boot process but I tried to fix the LFS 
boot loader, I edited files via ssh as usual, I just had to download and
 burn a boot cd to get it up and running. I got a little progress in 
that now LFS is trying to start but I'M getting a couple of errors.

2.033750]   VFS : Unable to mount root fs via NFS, trying floppy

2.034037]   VFS : Cannot open root device "sda2" or unknown-black(2,0)

2.034109]   Please append a correct "root=" boot option ; here are the 
available partitions:

2.034209]   Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS : Unable to mount root fs on 
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Re: [lfs-support] booting LFS

[Garrett Gaston]

sda1 is the LFS system

sda2 is the swap partition

sda3 is the host Debian system

Debian grub.cfg

http://pastebin.com/s7avRXM1


LFS grub.cfg

http://pastebin.com/Pmw1KQVG
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[lfs-support] Grub Questions (or how to waist yet ... even more ... precious electrons)

[alex lupu]

Hi Bruce:

Yes, you are right about the (HTML) client.

If you remember (I'm trying to actually forget), after
my flailing around with various emails and modes,
in a series of back and forth posts you straighten me up
about what is and how to use the best email/mode:

Gmail in "Plain Text"

Despite two disadvantages:

1.  The way Gmail "announces" its current mode:
It reads "Rich Formatting >>";  the user misses the
two little angle brackets (meaning actually, "to go to")
and thinks she _is_ in some sort of HTML.

2.  The content seen in the Sent window appears
mangled even after the _correct_ "Plain Text" message.
So here the only proof of the pudding (hopefully, a reassuring
result) is a quick visit to, say, the lfs-support Archive
in order to admire (or critique) your opus as the world gets to see it.

Cheers,
-- Alex
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Re: [lfs-support] booting LFS

[Bruce Dubbs]

Garrett Gaston wrote:
>
> I haven't yet fixed Debian's boot process but I tried to fix the LFS
> boot loader, I edited files via ssh as usual, I just had to download and
>   burn a boot cd to get it up and running. I got a little progress in
> that now LFS is trying to start but I'M getting a couple of errors.
>
> 2.033750]   VFS : Unable to mount root fs via NFS, trying floppy
>
> 2.034037]   VFS : Cannot open root device "sda2" or unknown-black(2,0)
>
> 2.034109]   Please append a correct "root=" boot option ; here are the 
> available partitions:
>
> 2.034209]   Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS : Unable to mount root fs on 
> unknown -block(2,0)  

This is not an LFS issue.  We don't support booting via NFS, even in 
BLFS.  Does your system have any disk drives devices at all?  If so, put 
LFS there.

I suspect what you say you want to do requires an initrd.

   -- Bruce

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Re: [lfs-support] booting LFS

[Bruce Dubbs]

Garrett Gaston wrote:
>
> sda1 is the LFS system
>
> sda2 is the swap partition
>
> sda3 is the host Debian system
>
> Debian grub.cfg
>
> http://pastebin.com/s7avRXM1
>
>
> LFS grub.cfg
>
> http://pastebin.com/Pmw1KQVG

OK.  The line:

   linux   /boot/vmlinuz-3.2.6-lfs-7.1 root=/dev/sda2 ro

should be pointing to sda1.

A way to check is to go to the grub command line and run (from memory):

   ls /boot

The file vmlinuz-3.2.6-lfs-7.1 should be there.

You might want to 'set pager=1' if scrolling is a problem.  The 
interface is fairly rudimentary.

   -- Bruce
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[lfs-support] /usr/lib/libstdc++.la getting trashed

[Ken Moffat]

 For some months now, I've had failures in BLFS when
/usr/libstdc++.la was found to be empty ('not a valid libtool
archive') : I know Armin removes these .la files, but I've found
that some things don't rebuild on updates if I do that - on x86_64
and previously on ppc/{,64}.  Last week, I had another such failure
in something, and finally bit the bullet and reworked my scripts to
test that this file - if it exists - is not empty.

 Tonight, I'm building 7.2 on my server.  On the way into chroot
[ my scripts do a few things here which are done inside chroot in
the book ] the test triggered.

 Looking at the timestamp, /usr/lib/libstdc++.la with a length of
zero was updated within the 5 minutes before I saw the error and
looked at it.  I restored it from a backup, and now chapter 6 is
building.

 Bu now that I think about this : when it happened (somewhere at the
end of chapter 5) I was user lfs, so I should not have been able to
wipe this file.

 I know that I've got problems that are specific to my scripts (e.g.
automake tests fail in chroot), so I need to ask : has anyone else
ever seen this sort of error, or am I out on my own ?

ĸen
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das eine Mal als Tragödie, das andere Mal als Farce
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Re: [lfs-support] booting LFS

[William Harrington]

On Sep 2, 2012, at 16:41 PM, Garrett Gaston wrote:

> 2.033750]   VFS : Unable to mount root fs via NFS, trying floppy
>
> 2.034037]   VFS : Cannot open root device "sda2" or unknown-black(2,0)
>
> 2.034109]   Please append a correct "root=" boot option ; here are  
> the available partitions:
>
> 2.034209]   Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS : Unable to mount root  
> fs on unknown -block(2,0)

Your kernel is missing drivers required to mount the rootfs.

root over nfs ends up being the unknown block 2,0 rather than 0,0 as  
it is in your kernel.

Make sure the drivers for your hard drives SCSI or SATA and PATA  
drivers are in the kernel, not as modules.

Make sure the filesystem driver to mount the rootfs is in the kernel  
and not a module.

Sincerely,

William Harrington
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