Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Gregory Foster]

On 6/10/13 4:40 PM, Tom Ritter wrote:

On 9 June 2013 17:43, Matt Johnson  wrote:

I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?

I actually think Hong Kong seems pretty smart. Parroting the news
organizations, Hong Kong has some extradition protection against
political crimes.


Christian Science Monitor (Jun 10) - "Edward Snowden: Why the NSA 
whistleblower fled to Hong Kong" by Peter Ford (Beijing):

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2013/0610/Edward-Snowden-Why-the-NSA-whistleblower-fled-to-Hong-Kong

Has details on recent changes in Hong Kong's asylum law relevant to this 
case.


HT @douglasmcnabb,
https://twitter.com/douglasmcnabb/status/344216800227119104

gf

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@gregoryfoster <> http://entersection.com/

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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Tom Ritter]

On 9 June 2013 17:43, Matt Johnson  wrote:
> I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
> a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?

I actually think Hong Kong seems pretty smart. Parroting the news
organizations, Hong Kong has some extradition protection against
political crimes.  Likewise, Hong Kong is pretty free, it's not
mainland China.  It has a high quality of living, tolerates a lot of
political dissent, and it'd be pretty easy to stay lost there (well,
if you hadn't told people where you were going anyway.)

Plus, the fact that it's China.  HK is a Special Administrative
Region, but Capital-C China would not take kindly to any mucking about
there.  It seems like it would cause a pretty big incident if the US
snatched him from there or tried to inappropriately exert pressure.
China is on the UN Security Council and is not likely to play nice if
the US affronted it's sovereignty. And they have a lot of ways they
can hit the US back too: UNSC, trade sanctions, debt or currency
manipulation, the North Korean situation, not to mention (more) cyber
espionage on the government or corporations. (I refuse to say
cyberwar, it's espionage.)  Compare than to Iceland: if the US pisses
off Iceland, what's Iceland going to do about it?

The major disadvantages I see are that 1) it makes him look a little
bit more like a Chinese actor/spy/etc.  And 2) There is probably a
decent chance the Chinese would hand him over as part of a handshake
and a nod type deal where they're going to get... something, but we
may never know what.  Anything from tarif exemptions, returning
Chinese spies, backing off on some US military (cyber?) operation or
something else.

-tom
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes]

Assange is still living at the Ecuadorean Embassy in London,  coming
up on his first anniversary, despite being granted asylum.. so..
Best Regards | Cordiales Saludos | Grato,

Andrés L. Pacheco Sanfuentes

+1 (817) 271-9619


On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Shava Nerad  wrote:
> Regarding "extraordinary renditions:"  I have to note that there has been
> phenomenally zip in the news media on these since Obama got smacked on the
> nose about them a few years ago.  Most of the FBI news stories regarding
> domestic terrorism have been show trials regarding sting operations of
> Muslim men, usually seeming to have mental health issues, who were entrapped
> by a network of operatives into planting a fake bomb and then put on some
> trial with a grand jury and put away on felony charges in some form of War
> on Terror theater.
>
> It is hard for me to believe that, in the interim of the administration
> getting its nose smacked and now, that nothing but the Boston bombing has
> erupted (pardon the term) on the domestic terrorism front.  So I have to
> assume DHS has quietly been continuing with renditions.  Much more quietly.
> To God knows where, since they seem to be doing overtures to shut down Gitmo
> now.  When that gets revealed, it will make Prism look like a sideshow --
> sending US citizens to foreign prisons without trial for interminable
> imprisonment?  Tasty.  Honestly it's hard for me to imagine it hasn't been
> happening.  The absence of news nearly proves it.  I can't believe that the
> terrorists have just...given up.  Well, except for two boys in Boston,
> unanticipated.
>
> This is a big country, and we have at least as many enemies as Israel and
> other places that are quite rife with violence.  I'm sure there is gang
> violence being misreported and other things being spun.  But I am equally
> sure we are disappearing people.  It can't have stopped, and there are no
> real trials.  Strategically, as risk management, historically, statistically
> -- it makes no sense.  This is my assessment.
>
> Yet several journalists I've asked about it (one of whom is on this list)
> have told me, "Find evidence and we'll report it."  Oddly, I used to think
> that was the job of investigative journalists -- to find the gaps in logic
> and find the facts to fit them.  I don't have those resources, but then,
> neither do the newsrooms these days.  And some of them won't jeopardize
> sources if they did, so it's on the back of...whistleblowers, traitors, the
> semantics get ever more complicated.
>
> Every year as I age I get more and more compassion for the current elder
> generation in Germany.  It makes me sad.  What color rose shall the American
> resistance pick -- blue perhaps?   We have them now.
>
> yrs,
> --
>
> Shava Nerad
> shav...@gmail.com
>
> --
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Shava Nerad]

Regarding "extraordinary renditions:"  I have to note that there has been
phenomenally zip in the news media on these since Obama got smacked on the
nose about them a few years ago.  Most of the FBI news stories regarding
domestic terrorism have been show trials regarding sting operations of
Muslim men, usually seeming to have mental health issues, who were
entrapped by a network of operatives into planting a fake bomb and then put
on some trial with a grand jury and put away on felony charges in some form
of War on Terror theater.

It is hard for me to believe that, in the interim of the administration
getting its nose smacked and now, that nothing but the Boston bombing has
erupted (pardon the term) on the domestic terrorism front.  So I have to
assume DHS has quietly been continuing with renditions.  Much more quietly.
 To God knows where, since they seem to be doing overtures to shut down
Gitmo now.  When that gets revealed, it will make Prism look like a
sideshow -- sending US citizens to foreign prisons without trial for
interminable imprisonment?  Tasty.  Honestly it's hard for me to imagine it
hasn't been happening.  The absence of news nearly proves it.  I can't
believe that the terrorists have just...given up.  Well, except for two
boys in Boston, unanticipated.

This is a big country, and we have at least as many enemies as Israel and
other places that are quite rife with violence.  I'm sure there is gang
violence being misreported and other things being spun.  But I am equally
sure we are disappearing people.  It can't have stopped, and there are no
real trials.  Strategically, as risk management, historically,
statistically -- it makes no sense.  This is my assessment.

Yet several journalists I've asked about it (one of whom is on this list)
have told me, "Find evidence and we'll report it."  Oddly, I used to think
that was the job of investigative journalists -- to find the gaps in logic
and find the facts to fit them.  I don't have those resources, but then,
neither do the newsrooms these days.  And some of them won't jeopardize
sources if they did, so it's on the back of...whistleblowers, traitors, the
semantics get ever more complicated.

Every year as I age I get more and more compassion for the current elder
generation in Germany.  It makes me sad.  What color rose shall the
American resistance pick -- blue perhaps?   We have them now.

yrs,
-- 

Shava Nerad
shav...@gmail.com
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Shava Nerad]

You have to love the reply:  "We've come a long way since the Pentagon
Papers were sidelined by Tricia Nixon's garden wedding party"  ROFLMAO!

SN

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Nadim Kobeissi  wrote:

> Check out this screenshot of the front page of the New York Times right
> now. Unbelievable:
>
> https://twitter.com/kaepora/status/343888967554457600
>
> NK
>
> On 2013-06-09, at 8:17 PM, Matt Johnson  wrote:
>
> > Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
> >
> > Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for
> the PRC.
> >
> > None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and
> learn.
> >
> > --
> > Matt
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
> >> There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
> >> plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
> >> government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
> >> case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
> >>>
> >>> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
> >>>
> >>> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
> >>>
> >>> Such an immensely brave and honest person
> >>>
> >>> Sheila
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
> 
>  On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems
> like
> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
> 
>  Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
>  article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
>  restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free
> but
>  protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and
> are
>  generally well tolerated by the government.
> 
>  Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To
> me,
>  that would have been a no-brainer.
> 
>  Anthony
> 
> 
> 
>  --
>  Anthony Papillion
>  Phone:   1.918.533.9699
>  SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
>  iNum:+883510008360912
>  XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
> 
>  www.cajuntechie.org
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
> >>> Founder
> >>> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
> >>> Watertown, MA  02472
> >>> 617 744 6020
> >>> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
> >>> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
> >>> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
> >>>
> >>> --
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> >>
> >>
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Shava Nerad
shav...@gmail.com
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[The Doctor]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/09/2013 08:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX wrote:

> than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything 
> worked out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist
> U.S. pressure.

Hypothetically speaking, would being granted asylum /really/ prevent
extraordinary rendition?  It sort of follows that if someone is
sufficiently honked off at someone to warrant their getting a squad
(in-house, third party, whatever) to gank someone, throw a black sack
over their head, and haul them off to a secret prison then a little
thing like political asylum isn't much of a deterrent.

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703] [ZS]
Developer, Project Byzantium: http://project-byzantium.org/

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"For my next trick: anvils."  --Harry Dresden
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[The Doctor]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/09/2013 06:04 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote:

> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To
> me, that would have been a no-brainer.

He would probably have had to make at least one, possibly more
layovers in the United States by doing so.  It's been mentioned that
his home has already been visited by LEA's, meaning that they were
looking for him already.  That implies that LEAs elsewhere on US soil
were keeping eyes open for him just in case he tried flying eastward
rather than westward.  In such a scenario, "agents looking for
someone" + "layover in the US" could very likely == "arrested"

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703] [ZS]
Developer, Project Byzantium: http://project-byzantium.org/

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
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TOYNBEE IDEA IN Kubrick's 2001 RESURRECT DEAD ON PLANET JUPITER

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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[The Doctor]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/09/2013 05:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems
> like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?

The articles state that he was assigned to and living in Hawaii.  It
is possible that he caught the first flight out of US territory
available to him at that time - Hong Kong.

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PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
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TOYNBEE IDEA IN Kubrick's 2001 RESURRECT DEAD ON PLANET JUPITER

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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Raven Jiang CX]

I have a less sinister explanation: The New York Times was taken by
surprising by The Guardian article and did not have enough time and
original material to justify a stronger headline.


On 9 June 2013 17:39, Sheila Parks  wrote:

> Thx for sharing
>
> What do you expect from the corporate lapdogs who are part of the problem
>
> Sheila
>
>
> At 08:35 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
>
>> Check out this screenshot of the front page of the New York Times right
>> now. Unbelievable:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/kaepora/**status/343888967554457600
>>
>> NK
>>
>> On 2013-06-09, at 8:17 PM, Matt Johnson  wrote:
>>
>> > Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
>> >
>> > Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for
>> the PRC.
>> >
>> > None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and
>> learn.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Matt
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX 
>> wrote:
>> >> There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong
>> Kong,
>> >> plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
>> >> government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make
>> a
>> >> case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks 
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
>> >>>
>> >>> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
>> >>>
>> >>> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
>> >>>
>> >>> Such an immensely brave and honest person
>> >>>
>> >>> Sheila
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
>> 
>>  On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems
>> like
>> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
>> 
>>  Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
>>  article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
>>  restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free
>> but
>>  protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and
>> are
>>  generally well tolerated by the government.
>> 
>>  Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To
>> me,
>>  that would have been a no-brainer.
>> 
>>  Anthony
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  --
>>  Anthony Papillion
>>  Phone:   1.918.533.9699
>>  SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
>>  iNum:+883510008360912
>>  XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
>> 
>>  www.cajuntechie.org
>>  --
>>  Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>>  emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your
>> settings at
>>  https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtech
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
>> >>> Founder
>> >>> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
>> >>> Watertown, MA  02472
>> >>> 617 744 6020
>> >>> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
>> >>> www.handcountedpaperballots.**org
>> >>> sheila@**handcountedpaperballots.org
>> >>>
>> >>> --
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>> >>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
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>
> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
> Founder
> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
> Watertown, MA  02472
> 617 744 6020
> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
> www.handcountedpaperballots.**org 
> sheila@**handcountedpaperballots.org 
>
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Raven Jiang CX]

I don't think that the Chinese will work with him. I think it's more like I
see fewer reasons for the Chinese government to cooperate with the U.S.
government than most European/Western nations that he could have run off
to. The PRC is not going to let CIA/NSA agents just nab him from right
under its nose.

I can see this as a positive for the PRC similar to how it often attempts
to publicly criticize US double standards when it comes to human rights:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-04/21/c_132326904.htm

There is a special irony to the fact that a U.S. whistle-blower is hiding
in Chinese territory. I can see how that narrative may appeal to some
people in the Chinese government.

Again, the question boils down to whether that propaganda value is greater
than just trading him off for some concrete diplomatic concession. Given
that the US and Hong Kong have an extradition treaty, the Chinese
government can really go either way on this.


On 9 June 2013 18:44, Matt Johnson  wrote:

> Raven, your analysis is interesting.
>
> I wonder why the Chinese would do anything to help him? I cannot see
> how the publicity would work to the PRC's advantage. I am sure they
> would work with him if he wanted to sell them docs, but that does not
> seem to be his game.
>
> Of course you are right, he does not have any safe choices now.
>
> --
> Matt Johnson
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Nadim Kobeissi  wrote:
> >
> > On 2013-06-09, at 8:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
> >
> >> He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea
> than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked
> out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure.
> >>
> >> Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or
> kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the
> Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most
> other stable governments around the world.
> >>
> >> It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any
> safe ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value
> in trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as
> a constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy.
> >
> > Very intelligent analysis there as to why he picked Hong Kong.
> >
> > NK
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson  wrote:
> >> Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
> >>
> >> Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for
> the PRC.
> >>
> >> None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and
> learn.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Matt
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX 
> wrote:
> >> > There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong
> Kong,
> >> > plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
> >> > government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can
> make a
> >> > case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks 
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
> >> >>
> >> >> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
> >> >>
> >> >> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
> >> >>
> >> >> Such an immensely brave and honest person
> >> >>
> >> >> Sheila
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> >> >>> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems
> like
> >> >>> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
> >> >>> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
> >> >>> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free
> but
> >> >>> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and
> are
> >> >>> generally well tolerated by the government.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To
> me,
> >> >>> that would have been a no-brainer.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Anthony
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Anthony Papillion
> >> >>> Phone:   1.918.533.9699
> >> >>> SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
> >> >>> iNum:+883510008360912
> >> >>> XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
> >> >>>
> >> >>> www.cajuntechie.org
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password
> by
> >> >>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your
> settings at
> >> >>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
> >> >> Founder
> >> >> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
> >> >> Watertown, MA  02472
> >> >> 617 744 6020
> >> >> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
> >> >> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
> >> >> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
> >> >>

Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Matt Johnson]

I am not sure if the blow by blow news coverage is of interest to this
list, but I thought people might want another piece of info about
Snowden. 
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/hawaii-real-estate-agent-snowden-left-may-1

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Matt Johnson  wrote:
> Raven, your analysis is interesting.
>
> I wonder why the Chinese would do anything to help him? I cannot see
> how the publicity would work to the PRC's advantage. I am sure they
> would work with him if he wanted to sell them docs, but that does not
> seem to be his game.
>
> Of course you are right, he does not have any safe choices now.
>
> --
> Matt Johnson
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Nadim Kobeissi  wrote:
>>
>> On 2013-06-09, at 8:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
>>
>>> He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea 
>>> than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked 
>>> out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure.
>>>
>>> Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or 
>>> kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the 
>>> Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most 
>>> other stable governments around the world.
>>>
>>> It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe 
>>> ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in 
>>> trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a 
>>> constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy.
>>
>> Very intelligent analysis there as to why he picked Hong Kong.
>>
>> NK
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson  wrote:
>>> Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
>>>
>>> Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the 
>>> PRC.
>>>
>>> None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
>>> > There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
>>> > plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
>>> > government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
>>> > case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
>>> >>
>>> >> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
>>> >>
>>> >> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
>>> >>
>>> >> Such an immensely brave and honest person
>>> >>
>>> >> Sheila
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>>> >>> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
>>> >>> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
>>> >>> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
>>> >>> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
>>> >>> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
>>> >>> generally well tolerated by the government.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
>>> >>> that would have been a no-brainer.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Anthony
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Anthony Papillion
>>> >>> Phone:   1.918.533.9699
>>> >>> SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
>>> >>> iNum:+883510008360912
>>> >>> XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
>>> >>>
>>> >>> www.cajuntechie.org
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>>> >>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>>> >>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
>>> >> Founder
>>> >> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
>>> >> Watertown, MA  02472
>>> >> 617 744 6020
>>> >> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
>>> >> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
>>> >> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>>> >> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>>> >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>>> > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>>> > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>>> --
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by 
>>> emailing moderat

Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Matt Johnson]

Raven, your analysis is interesting.

I wonder why the Chinese would do anything to help him? I cannot see
how the publicity would work to the PRC's advantage. I am sure they
would work with him if he wanted to sell them docs, but that does not
seem to be his game.

Of course you are right, he does not have any safe choices now.

--
Matt Johnson



On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Nadim Kobeissi  wrote:
>
> On 2013-06-09, at 8:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
>
>> He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea than 
>> us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked out, 
>> but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure.
>>
>> Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or 
>> kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the 
>> Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most other 
>> stable governments around the world.
>>
>> It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe 
>> ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in 
>> trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a 
>> constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy.
>
> Very intelligent analysis there as to why he picked Hong Kong.
>
> NK
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson  wrote:
>> Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
>>
>> Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the 
>> PRC.
>>
>> None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn.
>>
>> --
>> Matt
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
>> > There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
>> > plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
>> > government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
>> > case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
>> >>
>> >> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
>> >>
>> >> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
>> >>
>> >> Such an immensely brave and honest person
>> >>
>> >> Sheila
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>> >>> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
>> >>> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
>> >>>
>> >>> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
>> >>> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
>> >>> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
>> >>> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
>> >>> generally well tolerated by the government.
>> >>>
>> >>> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
>> >>> that would have been a no-brainer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Anthony
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Anthony Papillion
>> >>> Phone:   1.918.533.9699
>> >>> SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
>> >>> iNum:+883510008360912
>> >>> XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
>> >>>
>> >>> www.cajuntechie.org
>> >>> --
>> >>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>> >>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>> >>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
>> >> Founder
>> >> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
>> >> Watertown, MA  02472
>> >> 617 744 6020
>> >> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
>> >> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
>> >> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>> >> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>> >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>> > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>> > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>> --
>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by 
>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at 
>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>>
>> --
>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by 
>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at 
>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>
> --
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> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at 
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--
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Nadim Kobeissi]

On 2013-06-09, at 8:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:

> He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea than 
> us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked out, but 
> he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure.
> 
> Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or 
> kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the Chinese 
> government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most other stable 
> governments around the world.
> 
> It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe 
> ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in 
> trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a 
> constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy.

Very intelligent analysis there as to why he picked Hong Kong.

NK

> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson  wrote:
> Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
> 
> Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC.
> 
> None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn.
> 
> --
> Matt
> 
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
> > There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
> > plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
> > government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
> > case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
> >
> >
> > On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
> >>
> >> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
> >>
> >> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
> >>
> >> Such an immensely brave and honest person
> >>
> >> Sheila
> >>
> >>
> >> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> >>> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
> >>> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
> >>>
> >>> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
> >>> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
> >>> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
> >>> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
> >>> generally well tolerated by the government.
> >>>
> >>> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
> >>> that would have been a no-brainer.
> >>>
> >>> Anthony
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Anthony Papillion
> >>> Phone:   1.918.533.9699
> >>> SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
> >>> iNum:+883510008360912
> >>> XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
> >>>
> >>> www.cajuntechie.org
> >>> --
> >>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
> >>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
> >>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
> >>
> >>
> >> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
> >> Founder
> >> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
> >> Watertown, MA  02472
> >> 617 744 6020
> >> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
> >> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
> >> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
> >>
> >> --
> >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
> >> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
> >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
> > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
> > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
> --
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> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at 
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> 
> --
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Sheila Parks]

Thx for sharing

What do you expect from the corporate lapdogs who are part of the problem

Sheila

At 08:35 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
Check out this screenshot of the front page of the New York Times 
right now. Unbelievable:


https://twitter.com/kaepora/status/343888967554457600

NK

On 2013-06-09, at 8:17 PM, Matt Johnson  wrote:

> Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
>
> Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working 
for the PRC.

>
> None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, 
and learn.

>
> --
> Matt
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
>> There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
>> plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
>> government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
>> case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
>>
>>
>> On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
>>>
>>> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
>>>
>>> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
>>>
>>> Such an immensely brave and honest person
>>>
>>> Sheila
>>>
>>>
>>> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:

 On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
> a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?

 Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
 article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
 restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
 protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
 generally well tolerated by the government.

 Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
 that would have been a no-brainer.

 Anthony



 --
 Anthony Papillion
 Phone:   1.918.533.9699
 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
 iNum:+883510008360912
 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si

 www.cajuntechie.org
 --
 Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
 emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
 https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>>>
>>>
>>> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
>>> Founder
>>> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
>>> Watertown, MA  02472
>>> 617 744 6020
>>> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
>>> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
>>> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
>>>
>>> --
>>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
> --
> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change 
password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing 
your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech


--
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Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
Founder
Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
Watertown, MA  02472
617 744 6020
DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
www.handcountedpaperballots.org
she...@handcountedpaperballots.org

--
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Raven Jiang CX]

He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea
than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked
out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure.

Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or
kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the
Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most
other stable governments around the world.

It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe
ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in
trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a
constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy.




On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson  wrote:

> Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
>
> Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the
> PRC.
>
> None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and
> learn.
>
> --
> Matt
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
> > There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
> > plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
> > government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
> > case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
> >
> >
> > On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
> >>
> >> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
> >>
> >> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
> >>
> >> Such an immensely brave and honest person
> >>
> >> Sheila
> >>
> >>
> >> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> >>> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems
> like
> >>> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
> >>>
> >>> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
> >>> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
> >>> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
> >>> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
> >>> generally well tolerated by the government.
> >>>
> >>> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
> >>> that would have been a no-brainer.
> >>>
> >>> Anthony
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Anthony Papillion
> >>> Phone:   1.918.533.9699
> >>> SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
> >>> iNum:+883510008360912
> >>> XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
> >>>
> >>> www.cajuntechie.org
> >>> --
> >>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
> >>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings
> at
> >>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
> >>
> >>
> >> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
> >> Founder
> >> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
> >> Watertown, MA  02472
> >> 617 744 6020
> >> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
> >> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
> >> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
> >>
> >> --
> >> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
> >> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings
> at
> >> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
> > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Nadim Kobeissi]

Check out this screenshot of the front page of the New York Times right now. 
Unbelievable:

https://twitter.com/kaepora/status/343888967554457600

NK

On 2013-06-09, at 8:17 PM, Matt Johnson  wrote:

> Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?
> 
> Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC.
> 
> None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn.
> 
> --
> Matt
> 
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
>> There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
>> plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
>> government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
>> case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
>> 
>> 
>> On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
>>> 
>>> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
>>> 
>>> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
>>> 
>>> Such an immensely brave and honest person
>>> 
>>> Sheila
>>> 
>>> 
>>> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
 
 On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
> a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
 
 Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
 article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
 restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
 protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
 generally well tolerated by the government.
 
 Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
 that would have been a no-brainer.
 
 Anthony
 
 
 
 --
 Anthony Papillion
 Phone:   1.918.533.9699
 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
 iNum:+883510008360912
 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
 
 www.cajuntechie.org
 --
 Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
 emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
 https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
>>> Founder
>>> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
>>> Watertown, MA  02472
>>> 617 744 6020
>>> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
>>> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
>>> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Matt Johnson]

Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly?

Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC.

None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn.

--
Matt

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX  wrote:
> There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
> plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
> government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
> case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.
>
>
> On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:
>>
>> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
>>
>> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
>>
>> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
>>
>> Such an immensely brave and honest person
>>
>> Sheila
>>
>>
>> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
>>>
>>> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>>> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
>>> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
>>>
>>> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
>>> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
>>> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
>>> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
>>> generally well tolerated by the government.
>>>
>>> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
>>> that would have been a no-brainer.
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anthony Papillion
>>> Phone:   1.918.533.9699
>>> SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
>>> iNum:+883510008360912
>>> XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
>>>
>>> www.cajuntechie.org
>>> --
>>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>>
>>
>> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
>> Founder
>> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
>> Watertown, MA  02472
>> 617 744 6020
>> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
>> www.handcountedpaperballots.org
>> she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Raven Jiang CX]

There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong,
plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese
government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a
case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable.


On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks  wrote:

> I agree with what you say about Hong Kong
>
> He does say he would like to end up in Iceland
>
> Wonder why he did not go there in the first place
>
> Such an immensely brave and honest person
>
> Sheila
>
>
> At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
>
>> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
>> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
>>
>> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
>> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
>> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
>> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
>> generally well tolerated by the government.
>>
>> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
>> that would have been a no-brainer.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anthony Papillion
>> Phone:   1.918.533.9699
>> SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
>> iNum:+883510008360912
>> XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
>>
>> www.cajuntechie.org
>> --
>> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
>> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
>> https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtech
>>
>
> Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
> Founder
> Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
> Watertown, MA  02472
> 617 744 6020
> DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
> www.handcountedpaperballots.**org 
> sheila@**handcountedpaperballots.org 
>
> --
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Sheila Parks]

I agree with what you say about Hong Kong

He does say he would like to end up in Iceland

Wonder why he did not go there in the first place

Such an immensely brave and honest person

Sheila

At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:

On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
> a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?

Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
generally well tolerated by the government.

Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
that would have been a no-brainer.

Anthony



--
Anthony Papillion
Phone:   1.918.533.9699
SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
iNum:+883510008360912
XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si

www.cajuntechie.org
--
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Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
Founder
Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
Watertown, MA  02472
617 744 6020
DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
www.handcountedpaperballots.org
she...@handcountedpaperballots.org

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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Wayne Moore]

As Josh Marshal pointed out
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/06/whats_the_deal_with_hong_kong.php,
Iceland almost certainly can't afford to stand up to the US Government
on something like this.

On 6/9/2013 15:04, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
>> I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
>> a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
> generally well tolerated by the government.
>
> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
> that would have been a no-brainer.
>
> Anthony
>
>
>

-- 
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

William Pitt (1759-1806)

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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Brian Conley]

Easy answer, plenty of flights to hong kong from Hawaii I would bet, and no
layovers in problematic countries.

B
On Jun 9, 2013 5:04 PM, "Anthony Papillion"  wrote:

> On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> > I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
> > a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?
>
> Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
> article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
> restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
> protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
> generally well tolerated by the government.
>
> Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
> that would have been a no-brainer.
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
> --
> Anthony Papillion
> Phone:   1.918.533.9699
> SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
> iNum:+883510008360912
> XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si
>
> www.cajuntechie.org
> --
> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Anthony Papillion]

On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
> I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
> a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?

Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an
article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech
restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but
protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are
generally well tolerated by the government.

Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me,
that would have been a no-brainer.

Anthony



-- 
Anthony Papillion
Phone:   1.918.533.9699
SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org
iNum:+883510008360912
XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si

www.cajuntechie.org
--
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Sheila Parks]

YES

At 05:14 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
"I had been looking for leaders, but I realised that leadership is 
about being the first to act." - Edward Snowden


This is the moment to show this person big public support. And keep 
showing it.


Katie Krauss
AIDS Policy Project
www.AIDSPolicyProject.org

Why AIDS Activists (and 
You) Should Care about the NSA

(a short blog post base on Griffin's post here)

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:44 PM, James S. Tyre 
<jst...@eff.org> wrote:

>
> "His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers 
on his laptop: "I support Online Rights: Electronic
> Frontier Foundation," reads one. Another hails the online 
organisation offering anonymity, the Tor Project."

>
> Heh.
>
> --
> James S. Tyre
> Law Offices of James S. Tyre
> 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
> Culver City, CA 90230-4969
> 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
> jst...@jstyre.com
> Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
> https://www.eff.org
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: 
liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu 
[mailto:liberationtech-
> > boun...@lists.stanford.edu] 
On Behalf Of Yosem Companys

> > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 12:31 PM
> > To: Liberation Technologies
> > Subject: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
> >
> > Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance
> > 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance

> >
> > The individual responsible for one of the most significant 
leaks in US political history
> > is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for 
the CIA and current
> > employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden 
has been working at the
> > National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee 
of various outside

> > contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
> >
> > The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing 
his identity at his request.
> > From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret 
documents to the public, he was
> > determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have 
no intention of hiding who

> > I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
> > --
> > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change 
password by emailing moderator
> > at compa...@stanford.edu or 
changing your settings at
> > 
https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech

>
> --
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password by emailing moderator at 
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your settings at 
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Sheila Parks, Ed.D.
Founder
Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots
Watertown, MA  02472
617 744 6020
DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS
www.handcountedpaperballots.org
she...@handcountedpaperballots.org
--
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Matt Johnson]

I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like
a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking?

--
Matt



On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Yosem Companys  wrote:
> Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
>
> The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US
> political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical
> assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor
> Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security
> Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside
> contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
>
> The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his
> identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose
> numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to
> opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention of hiding
> who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
> --
> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by 
> emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at 
> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Nadim Kobeissi]

Wow.

NK

On 2013-06-09, at 5:14 PM, Kate Krauss  wrote:

> "I had been looking for leaders, but I realised that leadership is about 
> being the first to act." - Edward Snowden
> 
> This is the moment to show this person big public support. And keep showing 
> it.
> 
> Katie Krauss
> AIDS Policy Project
> www.AIDSPolicyProject.org
> 
> Why AIDS Activists (and You) Should Care about the NSA
> (a short blog post base on Griffin's post here)
> 
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:44 PM, James S. Tyre  wrote:
> >
> > "His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers on his 
> > laptop: "I support Online Rights: Electronic
> > Frontier Foundation," reads one. Another hails the online organisation 
> > offering anonymity, the Tor Project."
> >
> > Heh.
> >
> > --
> > James S. Tyre
> > Law Offices of James S. Tyre
> > 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
> > Culver City, CA 90230-4969
> > 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
> > jst...@jstyre.com
> > Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
> > https://www.eff.org
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu [mailto:liberationtech-
> > > boun...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Yosem Companys
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 12:31 PM
> > > To: Liberation Technologies
> > > Subject: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
> > >
> > > Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance
> > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
> > >
> > > The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US 
> > > political history
> > > is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA 
> > > and current
> > > employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been 
> > > working at the
> > > National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of 
> > > various outside
> > > contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
> > >
> > > The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity 
> > > at his request.
> > > From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to 
> > > the public, he was
> > > determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no 
> > > intention of hiding who
> > > I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
> > > --
> > > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by 
> > > emailing moderator
> > > at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
> > > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
> >
> > --
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[Kate Krauss]

"I had been looking for leaders, but I realised that leadership is about
being the first to act." - Edward Snowden

This is the moment to show this person big public support. And keep showing
it.

Katie Krauss
AIDS Policy Project
www.AIDSPolicyProject.org

Why AIDS Activists (and You) Should Care about the
NSA
(a short blog post base on Griffin's post here)

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:44 PM, James S. Tyre  wrote:
>
> "His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers on his
laptop: "I support Online Rights: Electronic
> Frontier Foundation," reads one. Another hails the online organisation
offering anonymity, the Tor Project."
>
> Heh.
>
> --
> James S. Tyre
> Law Offices of James S. Tyre
> 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
> Culver City, CA 90230-4969
> 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
> jst...@jstyre.com
> Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
> https://www.eff.org
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu [mailto:liberationtech-
> > boun...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Yosem Companys
> > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 12:31 PM
> > To: Liberation Technologies
> > Subject: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
> >
> > Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance
> >
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
> >
> > The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US
political history
> > is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA
and current
> > employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has
been working at the
> > National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of
various outside
> > contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
> >
> > The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his
identity at his request.
> > From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to
the public, he was
> > determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no
intention of hiding who
> > I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
> > --
> > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
emailing moderator
> > at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
> > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
>
> --
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Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed

[James S. Tyre]

"His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers on his laptop: 
"I support Online Rights: Electronic
Frontier Foundation," reads one. Another hails the online organisation offering 
anonymity, the Tor Project."

Heh.

--
James S. Tyre
Law Offices of James S. Tyre
10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
Culver City, CA 90230-4969
310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
jst...@jstyre.com
Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://www.eff.org


> -Original Message-
> From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu [mailto:liberationtech-
> boun...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Yosem Companys
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 12:31 PM
> To: Liberation Technologies
> Subject: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
> 
> Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
> 
> The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US 
> political history
> is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and 
> current
> employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been 
> working at the
> National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various 
> outside
> contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
> 
> The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at 
> his request.
> From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the 
> public, he was
> determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention 
> of hiding who
> I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
> --
> Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by 
> emailing moderator
> at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at
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