Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/09/2013 05:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? The articles state that he was assigned to and living in Hawaii. It is possible that he caught the first flight out of US territory available to him at that time - Hong Kong. - -- The Doctor [412/724/301/703] [ZS] Developer, Project Byzantium: http://project-byzantium.org/ PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ TOYNBEE IDEA IN Kubrick's 2001 RESURRECT DEAD ON PLANET JUPITER -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG2BIoACgkQO9j/K4B7F8EU5gCghGluvYEXYSBPWr1CHXeHYf6u mSwAoIDbYrRasjB2MWm58f2Xr22oxihJ =6Xct -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/09/2013 06:04 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote: Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. He would probably have had to make at least one, possibly more layovers in the United States by doing so. It's been mentioned that his home has already been visited by LEA's, meaning that they were looking for him already. That implies that LEAs elsewhere on US soil were keeping eyes open for him just in case he tried flying eastward rather than westward. In such a scenario, agents looking for someone + layover in the US could very likely == arrested - -- The Doctor [412/724/301/703] [ZS] Developer, Project Byzantium: http://project-byzantium.org/ PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ TOYNBEE IDEA IN Kubrick's 2001 RESURRECT DEAD ON PLANET JUPITER -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG2BSMACgkQO9j/K4B7F8FEaACg7qwRoif3bjKJbzAh8ZuQDe+a cMoAoJZmnX068X1ndFTvaj2iF6yjWvXg =gn+g -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/09/2013 08:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX wrote: than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure. Hypothetically speaking, would being granted asylum /really/ prevent extraordinary rendition? It sort of follows that if someone is sufficiently honked off at someone to warrant their getting a squad (in-house, third party, whatever) to gank someone, throw a black sack over their head, and haul them off to a secret prison then a little thing like political asylum isn't much of a deterrent. - -- The Doctor [412/724/301/703] [ZS] Developer, Project Byzantium: http://project-byzantium.org/ PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ For my next trick: anvils. --Harry Dresden -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlG2B0UACgkQO9j/K4B7F8HjAQCfWO0AdJP9gBPh1bXAoYDYe6oq MREAoLz+Cn+4X1oZukgtfcpPZcmRmo7y =s4rW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
You have to love the reply: We've come a long way since the Pentagon Papers were sidelined by Tricia Nixon's garden wedding party ROFLMAO! SN On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Nadim Kobeissi na...@nadim.cc wrote: Check out this screenshot of the front page of the New York Times right now. Unbelievable: https://twitter.com/kaepora/status/343888967554457600 NK On 2013-06-09, at 8:17 PM, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
Regarding extraordinary renditions: I have to note that there has been phenomenally zip in the news media on these since Obama got smacked on the nose about them a few years ago. Most of the FBI news stories regarding domestic terrorism have been show trials regarding sting operations of Muslim men, usually seeming to have mental health issues, who were entrapped by a network of operatives into planting a fake bomb and then put on some trial with a grand jury and put away on felony charges in some form of War on Terror theater. It is hard for me to believe that, in the interim of the administration getting its nose smacked and now, that nothing but the Boston bombing has erupted (pardon the term) on the domestic terrorism front. So I have to assume DHS has quietly been continuing with renditions. Much more quietly. To God knows where, since they seem to be doing overtures to shut down Gitmo now. When that gets revealed, it will make Prism look like a sideshow -- sending US citizens to foreign prisons without trial for interminable imprisonment? Tasty. Honestly it's hard for me to imagine it hasn't been happening. The absence of news nearly proves it. I can't believe that the terrorists have just...given up. Well, except for two boys in Boston, unanticipated. This is a big country, and we have at least as many enemies as Israel and other places that are quite rife with violence. I'm sure there is gang violence being misreported and other things being spun. But I am equally sure we are disappearing people. It can't have stopped, and there are no real trials. Strategically, as risk management, historically, statistically -- it makes no sense. This is my assessment. Yet several journalists I've asked about it (one of whom is on this list) have told me, Find evidence and we'll report it. Oddly, I used to think that was the job of investigative journalists -- to find the gaps in logic and find the facts to fit them. I don't have those resources, but then, neither do the newsrooms these days. And some of them won't jeopardize sources if they did, so it's on the back of...whistleblowers, traitors, the semantics get ever more complicated. Every year as I age I get more and more compassion for the current elder generation in Germany. It makes me sad. What color rose shall the American resistance pick -- blue perhaps? We have them now. yrs, -- Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
Assange is still living at the Ecuadorean Embassy in London, coming up on his first anniversary, despite being granted asylum.. so.. Best Regards | Cordiales Saludos | Grato, Andrés L. Pacheco Sanfuentes a...@acm.org +1 (817) 271-9619 On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding extraordinary renditions: I have to note that there has been phenomenally zip in the news media on these since Obama got smacked on the nose about them a few years ago. Most of the FBI news stories regarding domestic terrorism have been show trials regarding sting operations of Muslim men, usually seeming to have mental health issues, who were entrapped by a network of operatives into planting a fake bomb and then put on some trial with a grand jury and put away on felony charges in some form of War on Terror theater. It is hard for me to believe that, in the interim of the administration getting its nose smacked and now, that nothing but the Boston bombing has erupted (pardon the term) on the domestic terrorism front. So I have to assume DHS has quietly been continuing with renditions. Much more quietly. To God knows where, since they seem to be doing overtures to shut down Gitmo now. When that gets revealed, it will make Prism look like a sideshow -- sending US citizens to foreign prisons without trial for interminable imprisonment? Tasty. Honestly it's hard for me to imagine it hasn't been happening. The absence of news nearly proves it. I can't believe that the terrorists have just...given up. Well, except for two boys in Boston, unanticipated. This is a big country, and we have at least as many enemies as Israel and other places that are quite rife with violence. I'm sure there is gang violence being misreported and other things being spun. But I am equally sure we are disappearing people. It can't have stopped, and there are no real trials. Strategically, as risk management, historically, statistically -- it makes no sense. This is my assessment. Yet several journalists I've asked about it (one of whom is on this list) have told me, Find evidence and we'll report it. Oddly, I used to think that was the job of investigative journalists -- to find the gaps in logic and find the facts to fit them. I don't have those resources, but then, neither do the newsrooms these days. And some of them won't jeopardize sources if they did, so it's on the back of...whistleblowers, traitors, the semantics get ever more complicated. Every year as I age I get more and more compassion for the current elder generation in Germany. It makes me sad. What color rose shall the American resistance pick -- blue perhaps? We have them now. yrs, -- Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
On 9 June 2013 17:43, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? I actually think Hong Kong seems pretty smart. Parroting the news organizations, Hong Kong has some extradition protection against political crimes. Likewise, Hong Kong is pretty free, it's not mainland China. It has a high quality of living, tolerates a lot of political dissent, and it'd be pretty easy to stay lost there (well, if you hadn't told people where you were going anyway.) Plus, the fact that it's China. HK is a Special Administrative Region, but Capital-C China would not take kindly to any mucking about there. It seems like it would cause a pretty big incident if the US snatched him from there or tried to inappropriately exert pressure. China is on the UN Security Council and is not likely to play nice if the US affronted it's sovereignty. And they have a lot of ways they can hit the US back too: UNSC, trade sanctions, debt or currency manipulation, the North Korean situation, not to mention (more) cyber espionage on the government or corporations. (I refuse to say cyberwar, it's espionage.) Compare than to Iceland: if the US pisses off Iceland, what's Iceland going to do about it? The major disadvantages I see are that 1) it makes him look a little bit more like a Chinese actor/spy/etc. And 2) There is probably a decent chance the Chinese would hand him over as part of a handshake and a nod type deal where they're going to get... something, but we may never know what. Anything from tarif exemptions, returning Chinese spies, backing off on some US military (cyber?) operation or something else. -tom -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
On 6/10/13 4:40 PM, Tom Ritter wrote: On 9 June 2013 17:43, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? I actually think Hong Kong seems pretty smart. Parroting the news organizations, Hong Kong has some extradition protection against political crimes. Christian Science Monitor (Jun 10) - Edward Snowden: Why the NSA whistleblower fled to Hong Kong by Peter Ford (Beijing): http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2013/0610/Edward-Snowden-Why-the-NSA-whistleblower-fled-to-Hong-Kong Has details on recent changes in Hong Kong's asylum law relevant to this case. HT @douglasmcnabb, https://twitter.com/douglasmcnabb/status/344216800227119104 gf -- Gregory Foster || gfos...@entersection.org @gregoryfoster http://entersection.com/ -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers on his laptop: I support Online Rights: Electronic Frontier Foundation, reads one. Another hails the online organisation offering anonymity, the Tor Project. Heh. -- James S. Tyre Law Offices of James S. Tyre 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512 Culver City, CA 90230-4969 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax) jst...@jstyre.com Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation https://www.eff.org -Original Message- From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu [mailto:liberationtech- boun...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Yosem Companys Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 12:31 PM To: Liberation Technologies Subject: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell. The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong, he said. -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
Wow. NK On 2013-06-09, at 5:14 PM, Kate Krauss ka...@critpath.org wrote: I had been looking for leaders, but I realised that leadership is about being the first to act. - Edward Snowden This is the moment to show this person big public support. And keep showing it. Katie Krauss AIDS Policy Project www.AIDSPolicyProject.org Why AIDS Activists (and You) Should Care about the NSA (a short blog post base on Griffin's post here) On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:44 PM, James S. Tyre jst...@eff.org wrote: His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers on his laptop: I support Online Rights: Electronic Frontier Foundation, reads one. Another hails the online organisation offering anonymity, the Tor Project. Heh. -- James S. Tyre Law Offices of James S. Tyre 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512 Culver City, CA 90230-4969 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax) jst...@jstyre.com Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation https://www.eff.org -Original Message- From: liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu [mailto:liberationtech- boun...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Yosem Companys Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 12:31 PM To: Liberation Technologies Subject: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell. The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong, he said. -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Yosem Companys compa...@stanford.edu wrote: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell. The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong, he said. -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
YES At 05:14 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: I had been looking for leaders, but I realised that leadership is about being the first to act. - Edward Snowden This is the moment to show this person big public support. And keep showing it. Katie Krauss AIDS Policy Project http://www.AIDSPolicyProject.orgwww.AIDSPolicyProject.org http://www.aidspolicyproject.org/curewatchWhy AIDS Activists (and You) Should Care about the NSA (a short blog post base on Griffin's post here) On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:44 PM, James S. Tyre mailto:jst...@eff.orgjst...@eff.org wrote: His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers on his laptop: I support Online Rights: Electronic Frontier Foundation, reads one. Another hails the online organisation offering anonymity, the Tor Project. Heh. -- James S. Tyre Law Offices of James S. Tyre 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512 Culver City, CA 90230-4969 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax) mailto:jst...@jstyre.comjst...@jstyre.com Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation https://www.eff.orghttps://www.eff.org -Original Message- From: mailto:liberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.eduliberationtech-boun...@lists.stanford.edu [mailto:mailto:liberationtech-liberationtech- mailto:boun...@lists.stanford.eduboun...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Yosem Companys Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 12:31 PM To: Liberation Technologies Subject: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillancehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell. The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong, he said. -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at mailto:compa...@stanford.educompa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at mailto:compa...@stanford.educompa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
Easy answer, plenty of flights to hong kong from Hawaii I would bet, and no layovers in problematic countries. B On Jun 9, 2013 5:04 PM, Anthony Papillion anth...@cajuntechie.org wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
As Josh Marshal pointed out http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/06/whats_the_deal_with_hong_kong.php, Iceland almost certainly can't afford to stand up to the US Government on something like this. On 6/9/2013 15:04, Anthony Papillion wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. William Pitt (1759-1806) -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.**org http://www.handcountedpaperballots.org sheila@**handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
Check out this screenshot of the front page of the New York Times right now. Unbelievable: https://twitter.com/kaepora/status/343888967554457600 NK On 2013-06-09, at 8:17 PM, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
Thx for sharing What do you expect from the corporate lapdogs who are part of the problem Sheila At 08:35 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: Check out this screenshot of the front page of the New York Times right now. Unbelievable: https://twitter.com/kaepora/status/343888967554457600 NK On 2013-06-09, at 8:17 PM, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure. Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most other stable governments around the world. It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy. On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
On 2013-06-09, at 8:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure. Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most other stable governments around the world. It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy. Very intelligent analysis there as to why he picked Hong Kong. NK On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
Raven, your analysis is interesting. I wonder why the Chinese would do anything to help him? I cannot see how the publicity would work to the PRC's advantage. I am sure they would work with him if he wanted to sell them docs, but that does not seem to be his game. Of course you are right, he does not have any safe choices now. -- Matt Johnson On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Nadim Kobeissi na...@nadim.cc wrote: On 2013-06-09, at 8:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure. Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most other stable governments around the world. It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy. Very intelligent analysis there as to why he picked Hong Kong. NK On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
I am not sure if the blow by blow news coverage is of interest to this list, but I thought people might want another piece of info about Snowden. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/hawaii-real-estate-agent-snowden-left-may-1 On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Raven, your analysis is interesting. I wonder why the Chinese would do anything to help him? I cannot see how the publicity would work to the PRC's advantage. I am sure they would work with him if he wanted to sell them docs, but that does not seem to be his game. Of course you are right, he does not have any safe choices now. -- Matt Johnson On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Nadim Kobeissi na...@nadim.cc wrote: On 2013-06-09, at 8:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure. Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most other stable governments around the world. It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy. Very intelligent analysis there as to why he picked Hong Kong. NK On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
I don't think that the Chinese will work with him. I think it's more like I see fewer reasons for the Chinese government to cooperate with the U.S. government than most European/Western nations that he could have run off to. The PRC is not going to let CIA/NSA agents just nab him from right under its nose. I can see this as a positive for the PRC similar to how it often attempts to publicly criticize US double standards when it comes to human rights: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-04/21/c_132326904.htm There is a special irony to the fact that a U.S. whistle-blower is hiding in Chinese territory. I can see how that narrative may appeal to some people in the Chinese government. Again, the question boils down to whether that propaganda value is greater than just trading him off for some concrete diplomatic concession. Given that the US and Hong Kong have an extradition treaty, the Chinese government can really go either way on this. On 9 June 2013 18:44, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Raven, your analysis is interesting. I wonder why the Chinese would do anything to help him? I cannot see how the publicity would work to the PRC's advantage. I am sure they would work with him if he wanted to sell them docs, but that does not seem to be his game. Of course you are right, he does not have any safe choices now. -- Matt Johnson On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Nadim Kobeissi na...@nadim.cc wrote: On 2013-06-09, at 8:40 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: He did work in the intelligence community so maybe he has a better idea than us. My guess is that asylum in Iceland is ideal if everything worked out, but he doesn't think it is strong enough to resist U.S. pressure. Hong Kong is stable and modern, so he is less likely to be killed or kidnapped by local criminals on CIA payroll, and at the same time the Chinese government is less likely to cooperate with the U.S. than most other stable governments around the world. It's definitely a risky choice, but it's not like there is really any safe ones. I think the gamble boils down to whether China sees more value in trading him off for some other diplomatic concession or keep him safe as a constant reminder of U.S. hypocrisy. Very intelligent analysis there as to why he picked Hong Kong. NK On 9 June 2013 17:17, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing
Re: [liberationtech] NSA whistleblower revealed
I have a less sinister explanation: The New York Times was taken by surprising by The Guardian article and did not have enough time and original material to justify a stronger headline. On 9 June 2013 17:39, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: Thx for sharing What do you expect from the corporate lapdogs who are part of the problem Sheila At 08:35 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: Check out this screenshot of the front page of the New York Times right now. Unbelievable: https://twitter.com/kaepora/**status/343888967554457600https://twitter.com/kaepora/status/343888967554457600 NK On 2013-06-09, at 8:17 PM, Matt Johnson railm...@gmail.com wrote: Snowden says he wants asylum in Iceland. Why not go there directly? Going to Hong Kong makes him vulnerable to accusations of working for the PRC. None of that makes sense to me, but what do I know. I will watch, and learn. -- Matt On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Raven Jiang CX j...@stanford.edu wrote: There is a strong resistance against Chinese strong-arming in Hong Kong, plus I am not sure that it is actually in the interest of the Chinese government to help the US do anything about this. I think you can make a case for why it's a better choice, though it is definitely debatable. On 9 June 2013 15:10, Sheila Parks sheilaruthpa...@comcast.net wrote: I agree with what you say about Hong Kong He does say he would like to end up in Iceland Wonder why he did not go there in the first place Such an immensely brave and honest person Sheila At 06:04 PM 6/9/2013, you wrote: On 06/09/2013 04:43 PM, Matt Johnson wrote: I have to say going to Hong Kong for free speech and safety seems like a very odd choice to me. What was he thinking? Actually, and I think this is pointed out in either the video or an article somewhere, Hong Kong doesn't generally suffer the speech restrictions mainland China does. Sure, they aren't completely free but protests and unpopular political speech happen quite frequently and are generally well tolerated by the government. Still, I have to wonder why he didn't go somewhere like Iceland. To me, that would have been a no-brainer. Anthony -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.**orghttp://www.handcountedpaperballots.org sheila@**handcountedpaperballots.orgshe...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech Sheila Parks, Ed.D. Founder Center for Hand-Counted Paper Ballots Watertown, MA 02472 617 744 6020 DEMOCRACY IN OUR HANDS www.handcountedpaperballots.**org http://www.handcountedpaperballots.org sheila@**handcountedpaperballots.org she...@handcountedpaperballots.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/**mailman/listinfo/**liberationtechhttps://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
