Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Michael McMahon]

   FSFE is doing a relevant stream today about gaming to celebrate I <3
   Free Software day.

   """
   Only [less than one hour] left till our [1]#ilovefs gaming event
   begins!

   Learn about [2]#FreeSoftware games, engines, Wild Jams, and play
   Veloren with our community.
   We are looking forward to seeing you all there! Remember that you can
   stream the event as well:
   [3]https://stream.fsfe.org/
   """
   [4]https://mastodon.social/@fsfe/107796971271375507
Best,
Michael McMahon | Web Developer, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: 4337 2794 C8AD D5CA 8FCF  FA6C D037 59DA B600 E3C0
[5]https://fsf.org

US government employee? Use CFC charity code 63210 to support us through the
Combined Federal Campaign. [6]https://cfcgiving.opm.gov/

   On 1/19/22 10:12 PM, Sebastian Silva wrote:

   Once upon a time, FSF, Mozilla, and OpenGameArt and Creative Commons,
   actually raised funds for a two-part project:[7] Liberated Pixel Cup.
   I thought the discourse and organization around it was quite nice.
   Perhaps an annual event of the sort would be quite motivating for
   aspiring coders, and some not so aspiring, especially with cash prizes
   and shared assets, just a humble opinion.
   --
   Sebastian Silva

   El mié, 19 ene 2022 a las 8:24, Ismael Luceno (<[8]ism...@iodev.co.uk>)
   escribió:

 On 18/Jan/2022 18:03, Dennis Payne wrote:
 > You did ask an actual indie game developer. I chose "We" in my
 > statement because I was including myself in the group of game
 > developers. I recently made Anagramarama available for sale on
 [9]itch.io
 > to gain funds for free software game development. I also have a
 > merchandise shop where I've started trying to make money for free
 > software game development.
 >
 > If you want commercial closed source game developers, I've done
 that
 > two. I worked on the game Devil's Whiskey. I enjoyed the
 experience
 > and made money from it but don't particular enjoy closed source
 > development so I haven't done it since.
 <...>
 I meant, to make a large representative sample.
 I wish everyone was of your opinion, but I've been hearing otherwise
 from the majority of people I talked with; geography, environment,
 economy, and other factors might play a role in which groups are
 louder and/or larger.
 It would be important to understand who they are, their positions,
 and what might prevent their games from being free software.
 ___
 Discusion mailing list
 [10]discus...@fsfla.org
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References

   1. https://mastodon.social/tags/ilovefs
   2. https://mastodon.social/tags/FreeSoftware
   3. https://stream.fsfe.org/
   4. https://mastodon.social/@fsfe/107796971271375507
   5. https://fsf.org/
   6. https://cfcgiving.opm.gov/
   7. https://lpc.opengameart.org/
   8. mailto:ism...@iodev.co.uk
   9. http://itch.io/
  10. mailto:discus...@fsfla.org
  11. http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discusion
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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Sebastian Silva]

   Once upon a time, FSF, Mozilla, and OpenGameArt and Creative Commons,
   actually raised funds for a two-part project:[1] Liberated Pixel Cup.
   I thought the discourse and organization around it was quite nice.
   Perhaps an annual event of the sort would be quite motivating for
   aspiring coders, and some not so aspiring, especially with cash prizes
   and shared assets, just a humble opinion.
   --
   Sebastian Silva

   El mié, 19 ene 2022 a las 8:24, Ismael Luceno (<[2]ism...@iodev.co.uk>)
   escribió:

 On 18/Jan/2022 18:03, Dennis Payne wrote:
 > You did ask an actual indie game developer. I chose "We" in my
 > statement because I was including myself in the group of game
 > developers. I recently made Anagramarama available for sale on
 [3]itch.io
 > to gain funds for free software game development. I also have a
 > merchandise shop where I've started trying to make money for free
 > software game development.
 >
 > If you want commercial closed source game developers, I've done
 that
 > two. I worked on the game Devil's Whiskey. I enjoyed the
 experience
 > and made money from it but don't particular enjoy closed source
 > development so I haven't done it since.
 <...>
 I meant, to make a large representative sample.
 I wish everyone was of your opinion, but I've been hearing otherwise
 from the majority of people I talked with; geography, environment,
 economy, and other factors might play a role in which groups are
 louder and/or larger.
 It would be important to understand who they are, their positions,
 and what might prevent their games from being free software.
 ___
 Discusion mailing list
 [4]discus...@fsfla.org
 [5]http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discusion

References

   1. https://lpc.opengameart.org/
   2. mailto:ism...@iodev.co.uk
   3. http://itch.io/
   4. mailto:discus...@fsfla.org
   5. http://www.fsfla.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discusion
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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Ismael Luceno]

On 18/Jan/2022 18:03, Dennis Payne wrote:
> You did ask an actual indie game developer. I chose "We" in my
> statement because I was including myself in the group of game
> developers. I recently made Anagramarama available for sale on itch.io
> to gain funds for free software game development. I also have a
> merchandise shop where I've started trying to make money for free
> software game development.
> 
> If you want commercial closed source game developers, I've done that
> two. I worked on the game Devil's Whiskey. I enjoyed the experience
> and made money from it but don't particular enjoy closed source
> development so I haven't done it since.
<...>

I meant, to make a large representative sample.

I wish everyone was of your opinion, but I've been hearing otherwise
from the majority of people I talked with; geography, environment,
economy, and other factors might play a role in which groups are
louder and/or larger.

It would be important to understand who they are, their positions,
and what might prevent their games from being free software.

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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Dennis Payne]

You did ask an actual indie game developer. I chose "We" in my
statement because I was including myself in the group of game
developers. I recently made Anagramarama available for sale on itch.io
to gain funds for free software game development. I also have a
merchandise shop where I've started trying to make money for free
software game development.

If you want commercial closed source game developers, I've done that
two. I worked on the game Devil's Whiskey. I enjoyed the experience
and made money from it but don't particular enjoy closed source
development so I haven't done it since.

If you want someone who has entered game jams, I've entered two. I
would like to enter more but haven't found the time unfortunately.

If you want more game developers, I've hung out on irc channels for
gamedev and godot and talked to other developers about game jams. I've
also gone to a few Game Developer Conferences and Boston Festival of
Indie Games. I've attended the Postmortem game developer group in
Boston.

If you want more free software game developers, I frequent the
freegamedev.net forum. I also modify a lot of free software games and
generally contact about developer about it.

Feel free to reach out to other game developers. I enjoy hearing about
why people make games.

On Fri, 2022-01-14 at 16:26 +0100, Ismael Luceno wrote:
> On 07/Jan/2022 18:23, Dennis Payne wrote:
> <...>
> > Most people developing games would love to make a living as game
> > developers. However I disagree that most people developing games
> > are
> > motivated by it. We are usually motivated by a game we want to
> > make. We
> > might think it could make money but usually it is the desire for
> > the
> > game first.
> > 
> > People join National Novel Writing Month for the same reason. They
> > have
> > an idea for a novel and want to write it. Some will pursue
> > publishing
> > it. Some will self publish perhaps even knowing it won't be a giant
> > seller. Some will just give it away.
> 
> Yes, it could be the case, but I wouldn't count on it.
> 
> But instead of guessing, we could just ask actual indie game
> developers.


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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Ismael Luceno]

On 07/Jan/2022 18:23, Dennis Payne wrote:
<...>
> Most people developing games would love to make a living as game
> developers. However I disagree that most people developing games are
> motivated by it. We are usually motivated by a game we want to make. We
> might think it could make money but usually it is the desire for the
> game first.
> 
> People join National Novel Writing Month for the same reason. They have
> an idea for a novel and want to write it. Some will pursue publishing
> it. Some will self publish perhaps even knowing it won't be a giant
> seller. Some will just give it away.

Yes, it could be the case, but I wouldn't count on it.

But instead of guessing, we could just ask actual indie game developers.

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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jean Louis]

* Dennis Payne  [2022-01-08 17:23]:
> On Fri, 2022-01-07 at 10:53 +0100, Ismael Luceno wrote:
> > People who value free software would publish their games as free
> > software... Why don't we have so many games then?
> 
> We do have a lot of games. Obviously not as many as commercial games.
> They tend to steer towards procedural or acade games rather than
> complex story games. High quality graphics are less common but not
> unseen.
> 
> https://trilarion.github.io/opensourcegames/statistics/index.html
> Lists 519 linux games at the moment. Some may not be completely free
> but a good chunk of them probably are. It has a backlog of games to add
> as well.

It is unclear what "open source" means, there are many "custom
licenses" and "other licenses".

> Most people developing games would love to make a living as game
> developers. However I disagree that most people developing games are
> motivated by it. We are usually motivated by a game we want to make. We
> might think it could make money but usually it is the desire for the
> game first.
> 
> People join National Novel Writing Month for the same reason. They have
> an idea for a novel and want to write it. Some will pursue publishing
> it. Some will self publish perhaps even knowing it won't be a giant
> seller. Some will just give it away.

Great, keep it going.

Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Dennis Payne]

On Fri, 2022-01-07 at 10:53 +0100, Ismael Luceno wrote:
> People who value free software would publish their games as free
> software... Why don't we have so many games then?

We do have a lot of games. Obviously not as many as commercial games.
They tend to steer towards procedural or acade games rather than
complex story games. High quality graphics are less common but not
unseen.

https://trilarion.github.io/opensourcegames/statistics/index.html
Lists 519 linux games at the moment. Some may not be completely free
but a good chunk of them probably are. It has a backlog of games to add
as well.

> Most people developing games are motivated by the prospects of:
> either
> just being able to make a living as game developers, or worse, of
> making more money as game developers than in their current day job.

Most people developing games would love to make a living as game
developers. However I disagree that most people developing games are
motivated by it. We are usually motivated by a game we want to make. We
might think it could make money but usually it is the desire for the
game first.

People join National Novel Writing Month for the same reason. They have
an idea for a novel and want to write it. Some will pursue publishing
it. Some will self publish perhaps even knowing it won't be a giant
seller. Some will just give it away.


-- 
Dennis Payne
du...@identicalsoftware.com
https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@dulsi



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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Ismael Luceno]

On 06/Jan/2022 23:21, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
> It sounds like game jams have value for education in programming, but
> do they have value for the free software movement, enough for free
> software activists to dedicate time to them for the sake of that?
> 
> Can the people who want to do a game jam for free software think up a way
> to make it educate about free software as well as about programming?
> 
> I don't have answers for those questions, but I think they are the
> crucial questions to pose. 

People who value free software would publish their games as free
software... Why don't we have so many games then?

It isn't just because people care, it's because some people who care
can write code (sometimes), and in the end, if you're successful at
making free software important to mainstream, it becomes a tiny subset
of people, which might become unhappy because they're underapreciated
and they share very little with the non-technical folks.

Richard, I think we discussed that before, maybe I can articulate
better this time; do you remember that group you "inspired" in Uruguay?
how much do you think it lasted? a couple weeks.

The landscape isn't uniform, software developers are different among
themselves, so you need to sort them by interests and have a different
approach based on that.

Most people developing games are motivated by the prospects of: either
just being able to make a living as game developers, or worse, of
making more money as game developers than in their current day job.

But don't take my word, make a poll or something and see for yourself.

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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Florian Snow]

Hi!


On Friday, January 7, 2022 5:21:10 AM CET Richard Stallman wrote: 
> It sounds like game jams have value for education in programming, but
> do they have value for the free software movement,

It depends.  It is a fun way to introduce people to programming and if we 
introduce people to Free Software right away, that may have benefits.  In my 
experience, though, a lot of participants are already programmers though and 
they participate for the challenge.  Most programmers have also heard about 
Free Software before (at least in my experience), so in that case, the benefit 
may be limited to reminding them that Free Software is important and possibly 
showing them how to properly license their repositories.  Because often times, 
they do publish the source code of those games anyway, it just lacks proper 
licensing because they don't want to bother with that.


> enough for free software activists to dedicate time to them for the sake of
> that?

I cannot judge that and I think a lot of what we do is trial and error.  So 
this might be worth trying.  Personally, I have taken a different approach to 
game jams.  For example the Global Game Jam is a distributed event with many 
different local organizers.  I have been involved with one in the past and 
helped set up a sample repository that participants could use and that 
repository had information on proper licensing and recommended the GNU AGPL3+ 
as a license.  That way, people were nudged in the right direction with little 
effort.  Another step further would be to convince a local organizer to only 
accept Free Software submissions.


One futher note because the question of (prize) money has come up: I don't see 
money as the main motivation for participants, so I wouldn't worry about that.  
My impression is that most games from a game jam are not commercially 
successful anyway and people mainly have fun writing something together.  So I 
wouldn't worry about offsetting any potential income from those games because 
the majority of them wouldn't make money anyway.

Happy hacking!
Florian



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss]

On 07/01/2022 04:21, Richard Stallman wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

It sounds like game jams have value for education in programming, but
do they have value for the free software movement, enough for free
software activists to dedicate time to them for the sake of that?

Can the people who want to do a game jam for free software think up a way
to make it educate about free software as well as about programming?

I don't have answers for those questions, but I think they are the
crucial questions to pose.



I would guess just using free software to make the games is a start, 
we can then have discussions about software licensing generally but 
include the four freedoms within that discussion.


Also have discussions as to what happens if we need a component that is 
non free,  how doing that ends up tying us in to a situation where if 
that component changes,  our game may no longer compile or work 
properly.  So this gives a practical example of the problems people 
face.  How do we work round that,  make games that interact with say the 
free software drivers/firmware, so we may sacrifice some game features 
but we can enhance other features.


How can we write games to make money if they are written under a free 
software license could be a question we get.?


Another example could be that software is available on wider hardware 
due to the source code being available, and the fact we have the freedom 
to port (which probably requires modification before recompiling) 
Raspberry Pi is available to lots of people, so while some parts may be 
non free,  lets get people in that way too, work around the issues and 
campaign - support truly free hardware - which brings me on to:-


Also with the rise of RiscV and other open processors ( I am not very 
good with the vocabulary here, sorry) isn't there a chance we may 
actually get some truly RYF hardware?  We are going to need developers 
for that at some point,  Core/Libreboot will probably form oart of any 
systems using those CPUs so again those projects need developers.


What about games for pinephones, pine tablets and the pinebooks, it 
seems there are several operating systems and programs are not ported to 
all of them, example the Mastodon apps.


If we want to build a game for free software systems, how can we target 
as many systems as possible easily?


So writing games,  will teach people skills they can use elsewhere too.

Lets do more brainstorming on this.

Paul

--
--
Paul Sutton, Cert Cont Sci (Open)
https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/
Pronoun : him/his/he
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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

It sounds like game jams have value for education in programming, but
do they have value for the free software movement, enough for free
software activists to dedicate time to them for the sake of that?

Can the people who want to do a game jam for free software think up a way
to make it educate about free software as well as about programming?

I don't have answers for those questions, but I think they are the
crucial questions to pose. 

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Ismael Luceno]

On 05/Jan/2022 14:48, Dennis Payne wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-01-05 at 16:10 +0100, Ismael Luceno wrote:
> > Making it attractive would mean the prizes and frequency of the
> > contests
> > need to yield an average much higher than what would be possible by
> > selling
> > the game, which sounds unrealistic to me.
> > 
> > A single top game can easily gross tens of millions, I don't think
> > you can
> > compete with the privative models this way; and even the average
> > good-ish
> > games makes 20k-25k USD on their first year.
> > 
> > Making it work would require a different approach.
> 
> I think you are misinformed. According to a 2020 study, over 50% of
> indie games on Steam make less than $4000.
> 
> https://vginsights.com/insights/article/infographic-indie-game-revenues-on-steam

I don't disagree with those numbers. Is your plan to have just mediocre
games?

<...> 
> $2000 prize pool for weekend or even a week of work isn't bad.

Completely different dynamics from work, it's a competition, you don't
give them money all year around, neither you guarantee it.

If the median game makes about 4k USD, and you don't care about
quality, just the number of games, you would still need to reward above
that if you want everything copylefted.

Also there's the problem of how you partition that, by voting?
everyone gets 4k?

I can't think of any sane option.

> To sell a game you need to do a lot more work. Take Celeste
> for example. It was made for on pico-8 for a game jam. It was a
> "difficult platformer with 30 levels". The commercial game had
> "over 200 rooms spread between eight chapters." That was a lot of
> work to make it a commercial success.

True; but I'm just pointing out we cut out that possibility if we
really want libre games. It isn't about the time invested in the jam,
that's meaningless, the problem is the alternative commercial
exploitation model would need to be better, or at least equivalent.

> A game jam game might lead to a bigger commercial game but the game jam
> itself will not be a huge seller. Game jams require you to be able to
> play the games of others to give ratings and comments. You are going to
> get that if you have to buy them. On itch.io I believe the only thing
> you can do is make it "pay what want".

Unless you do something else, you'll still get privative games in the
end of the chain, and just junk prototypes from the competition itself.

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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss]

On 05/01/2022 19:48, Dennis Payne wrote:

On Wed, 2022-01-05 at 16:10 +0100, Ismael Luceno wrote:

Making it attractive would mean the prizes and frequency of the
contests
need to yield an average much higher than what would be possible by
selling
the game, which sounds unrealistic to me.

A single top game can easily gross tens of millions, I don't think
you can
compete with the privative models this way; and even the average
good-ish
games makes 20k-25k USD on their first year.

Making it work would require a different approach.


I think you are misinformed. According to a 2020 study, over 50% of
indie games on Steam make less than $4000.

https://vginsights.com/insights/article/infographic-indie-game-revenues-on-steam

You could argue whether those were "average good-ish" but that is a lot
of games. Steam requires a $100 fee just to be listed.

$2000 prize pool for weekend or even a week of work isn't bad. To sell
a game you need to do a lot more work. Take Celeste for example. It was
made for on pico-8 for a game jam. It was a "difficult platformer with
30 levels". The commercial game had "over 200 rooms spread between
eight chapters." That was a lot of work to make it a commercial
success.

A game jam game might lead to a bigger commercial game but the game jam
itself will not be a huge seller. Game jams require you to be able to
play the games of others to give ratings and comments. You are going to
get that if you have to buy them. On itch.io I believe the only thing
you can do is make it "pay what want".




Pay what you want or perhaps what you can afford, if you are a developer 
on that model surely any income is welcome.


Paul

--
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https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/
OpenPGP : 4350 91C4 C8FB 681B 23A6 7944 8EA9 1B51 E27E 3D99
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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Dennis Payne]

On Wed, 2022-01-05 at 16:10 +0100, Ismael Luceno wrote:
> Making it attractive would mean the prizes and frequency of the
> contests
> need to yield an average much higher than what would be possible by
> selling
> the game, which sounds unrealistic to me.
> 
> A single top game can easily gross tens of millions, I don't think
> you can
> compete with the privative models this way; and even the average
> good-ish
> games makes 20k-25k USD on their first year.
> 
> Making it work would require a different approach.

I think you are misinformed. According to a 2020 study, over 50% of
indie games on Steam make less than $4000.

https://vginsights.com/insights/article/infographic-indie-game-revenues-on-steam

You could argue whether those were "average good-ish" but that is a lot
of games. Steam requires a $100 fee just to be listed.

$2000 prize pool for weekend or even a week of work isn't bad. To sell
a game you need to do a lot more work. Take Celeste for example. It was
made for on pico-8 for a game jam. It was a "difficult platformer with
30 levels". The commercial game had "over 200 rooms spread between
eight chapters." That was a lot of work to make it a commercial
success.

A game jam game might lead to a bigger commercial game but the game jam
itself will not be a huge seller. Game jams require you to be able to
play the games of others to give ratings and comments. You are going to
get that if you have to buy them. On itch.io I believe the only thing
you can do is make it "pay what want".

-- 
Dennis Payne
du...@identicalsoftware.com
https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@dulsi



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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

> Most of these events are competitions without prizes, so the purpose
is up to the developer... generally people who participate intend to
make money out of the games afterwards irrespective of the type of
event, so I think having users only counts if it makes money for the
author. -- Ismael Lucano

One of the highlighted issues was that it's very difficult to maintain
freedom and fund the development of more complicated games e.g.
Wolfenstein series where the developer releases all the source code
under GPLv2 or GPLv3, but keeps the levels proprietary to sustain the
development.

So i was arguing about providing >2000 USD price pool that can be crowd
sourced to help sustain the development as usually the game can sustain
itself after it's playable and well known.

On 1/5/22 11:38, Ismael Luceno wrote:

On 04/Jan/2022 22:54, Richard Stallman wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Const

itution against all enemies, ]]]

[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

If the aim of a Game Jam isn't to produce a game that people use,
what is its purpose?

Most of these events are competitions without prizes, so the purpose
is up to the developer... generally people who participate intend to
make money out of the games afterwards irrespective of the type of
event, so I think having users only counts if it makes money for the
author.


--
-- Jacob Hrbek



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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Ismael Luceno]

On 04/Jan/2022 22:54, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
> If the aim of a Game Jam isn't to produce a game that people use,
> what is its purpose?

Most of these events are competitions without prizes, so the purpose
is up to the developer... generally people who participate intend to
make money out of the games afterwards irrespective of the type of
event, so I think having users only counts if it makes money for the
author.

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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jean Louis]

On January 5, 2022 5:06:26 AM UTC, Michael McMahon 

> If most game jam games ended up in standard repositories, there
>would be a negative effect on the entire ecosystem.  

Ecosystem is biology.

I am conducting experiments of various kinds every day, and measure outcomes, 
make hypothesis and verify its outcomes. Recommendation is same, if software is 
free and functions for playing, include it, and then see contributions coming 
or not coming. Make experiments instead of blocking public access to free 
games. 

> As gamers search 
>for free games to play, they would install these game jam games and
>find 
>a large number of low quality games.  After trying several duds, the 
>negative experience could turn them away from free software altogether 
>without context.  Every program does not need to be packaged.

It is hypothesis, though quite in contradiction to purpose of game jams as how 
you described it. Do you see contradictions?

Either you should keep the purpose of game jams or purpose of popularity by 
quality. Choose one.



Jean

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Re: [FSFLA] LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Ismael Luceno]

On 05/Jan/2022 14:37, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> > Most of these events are competitions without prizes, so the purpose
> is up to the developer... generally people who participate intend to
> make money out of the games afterwards irrespective of the type of
> event, so I think having users only counts if it makes money for the
> author. -- Ismael Lucano
> 
> One of the highlighted issues was that it's very difficult to maintain
> freedom and fund the development of more complicated games e.g.
> Wolfenstein series where the developer releases all the source code
> under GPLv2 or GPLv3, but keeps the levels proprietary to sustain the
> development.
> 
> So i was arguing about providing >2000 USD price pool that can be crowd
> sourced to help sustain the development as usually the game can sustain
> itself after it's playable and well known.

Making it attractive would mean the prizes and frequency of the contests
need to yield an average much higher than what would be possible by selling
the game, which sounds unrealistic to me.

A single top game can easily gross tens of millions, I don't think you can
compete with the privative models this way; and even the average good-ish
games makes 20k-25k USD on their first year.

Making it work would require a different approach.

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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss]

On 05/01/2022 05:06, Michael McMahon wrote:
In my response I wrote, "The purpose of a jam is education, 
socialization, and friendly competition while gaining functional 
experience through creating something in an area that they are 
interested in."


 From what I gathered, most game jams participants are children, 
students, hobbyists, and mentors who are not professional programmers. I 
have tried hundreds of game jam games and I would only recommend a few 
of them to be worth playing or distributing through a repository.  The 
majority of them are incomplete concepts of games.  Many are not 
playable without reading the source.  Many cannot be played.  Some are 
great!  If most game jam games ended up in standard repositories, there 
would be a negative effect on the entire ecosystem.  As gamers search 
for free games to play, they would install these game jam games and find 
a large number of low quality games.  After trying several duds, the 
negative experience could turn them away from free software altogether 
without context.  Every program does not need to be packaged.


Jams do have value.  Sometimes the journey is the destination.



I agree here,  I am running code club as a leader I can only go so far 
with my limited coding expertise.  Perhaps a game jam could take 
resources from a book here.


http://inventwithpython.com/

As that way we are all reading from the same book,  we could then help 
support people taking part,


If working with adults, this can probably be undertaken remotely,  if 
working with children you need to take in to account safeguarding etc, 
(At least from a UK viewpoint).


I am sure most people can take one of those books and work through the 
exercises,  it is nice to find a way to support people or each other 
over a set period of time (e.g 1 week).



If working remotely this is also an opportunity to teach people how to 
use git,  how to share and ask for help on forums,   what to include how 
to ask etc and learn about the 4 freedoms


Include a non free graphic and see how that affects sharing and 
development when you need to make a replacement.  Doing this step 
demonstrates why code and all assets need to be under a free license.


So other than creating games,  it presents an opportunity to learn extra 
skills which can lead in to contributing.


Paul



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Michael McMahon]

In my response I wrote, "The purpose of a jam is education, 
socialization, and friendly competition while gaining functional 
experience through creating something in an area that they are 
interested in."


From what I gathered, most game jams participants are children, 
students, hobbyists, and mentors who are not professional programmers.  
I have tried hundreds of game jam games and I would only recommend a few 
of them to be worth playing or distributing through a repository.  The 
majority of them are incomplete concepts of games.  Many are not 
playable without reading the source.  Many cannot be played.  Some are 
great!  If most game jam games ended up in standard repositories, there 
would be a negative effect on the entire ecosystem.  As gamers search 
for free games to play, they would install these game jam games and find 
a large number of low quality games.  After trying several duds, the 
negative experience could turn them away from free software altogether 
without context.  Every program does not need to be packaged.


Jams do have value.  Sometimes the journey is the destination.

Best,
Michael McMahon | Web Developer, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: 4337 2794 C8AD D5CA 8FCF  FA6C D037 59DA B600 E3C0
https://fsf.org

US government employee? Use CFC charity code 63210 to support us through the
Combined Federal Campaign. https://cfcgiving.opm.gov/

On 1/4/22 10:54 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

If the aim of a Game Jam isn't to produce a game that people use,
what is its purpose?




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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

If the aim of a Game Jam isn't to produce a game that people use,
what is its purpose?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

>  A libre game jam related to LibrePlanet would probably need to be 
before the conference to not distract from the talks. -- Michael McMahon


I like the idea of it being part of the conference to increase the 
participation from a new generation.


> Game jam games are not expected to result in complete games, package 
their software in repositories, continue development after the jam, or 
become AAA games.  To demand or expect these things from a ga... -- 
Michael McMahon


I do agree that this is how game jams usually works, but i think that we 
should adjust the rules there to address the issue with discoverability 
and development sustainability while handling the issue with rushed code 
and lack of licensing and documentation.




On 1/3/22 17:39, Michael McMahon wrote:

Hi!

These game jam threads are an interesting read, but there are some
misunderstandings about what the purpose of a game jam is in this thread
and the other thread Global Game Jam.  This is long, but I hope it is
informative.

If anyone with experience running a game jam wants to host a game jam in
connection with LibrePlanet conference, reach out to the FSF Campaigns
team at campai...@fsf.org to get this idea rolling. The small FSF staff
typically all has roles to play during the conference so this task would
need to come from volunteers if you are serious about making it happen.
None of the FSF staff have experience running a game jam that I am aware
of.  A libre game jam related to LibrePlanet would probably need to be
before the conference to not distract from the talks.  The games could
be presented during the Lightning Talks portion of the conference.

A jam is usually a very short period of time where various groups of
people with different skill sets compete to make something surrounding a
theme or set of restrictions.  The theme and restrictions are mechanisms
to mitigate groups from using the jam to release or popularize something
that they have been secretly working on for months.  The purpose of a
jam is education, socialization, and friendly competition while gaining
functional experience through creating something in an area that they
are interested in.  There are many different types of jams.  Ones that
are related to these threads are game jams and game art jams [1]. A game
jam usually results in several people hacking on a concept and pulling
all-nighters to deliver a somewhat functional concept of a game.  A game
jam team might be composed of programmers, writers, and artists.  A game
art jam is where teams of artists create art assets that can be used by
other games.

Game jam games are not expected to result in complete games, package
their software in repositories, continue development after the jam, or
become AAA games.  To demand or expect these things from a game jam is
an unreasonable expectation.  A successful Libre Game Jam should only be
expected to produce game concepts released under a free software
compatible license using free culture assets where the majority of
participants learn something through the process.  Anything else would
be going above and beyond what is typically expected from a jam.

There are a great deal of free software games that have come out of
various game jams over the years since the trend began.  Even game jams
that are not explicitly focused around free software have developed many
free software games.  If you can find the code and the licensing is
correct or correctable, anyone can pick up where they left off.  Keep in
mind that fixing a licensing issue becomes increasingly difficult as
time passes as getting in contact with a dissolved team or minors is
difficult.

In order for amateur programmers or hobbyists to make a game technical
demonstration in 48 hours or one week, the code is often similar to
spaghetti.  The short time frame requires taking shortcuts and hacks to
make something fast [2].  To continue development on a game jam game,
the first step would probably require refactoring the code which takes
development time.  The code is usually is found in an archive file
released by the game jam organizers so continued development would need
to move to a software forge as well.

Packaging software for various distributions is a different set of
skills than would normally be expected from a group of game development
volunteers with no sleep.  Organizers of a such an event could plan to
take these additional steps with the games or mentor the winners through
the process.  If the licensing checks out, there is nothing stopping
anyone from packaging and maintaining the games in their distribution of
choice.  Someone could start the first Game Package Jam where groups
compete to see who can upstream the most libre games to the Debian
repositories based around a certain theme.

Other creative game jam concepts with a focused scope:

Libre Game License Jam where groups reach out to Game Jam repositories
to fix or start licensing issues and pull requests.

Libre Game Fork 

Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

>  I think it would quickly become unmanageable. I think you would need 
to display only those installed and allow a search for more to install. 
-- Dennis Payne


I agree that showing a huge list of games would be unmanagable in which 
case each user should have it's "library of games" with option to add 
more games to it from some kind of catalog.


On 1/4/22 04:01, Dennis Payne wrote:

  I think it would quickly become
unmanageable. I think you would need to display only those installed
and allow a search for more to install.


--
-- Jacob Hrbek



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Dennis Payne]

On Sun, 2022-01-02 at 07:32 +, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> Proof-of-concept: GameHub  which
> is 
> a GUI frontend to various DDPs that handles the installation through
> the 
> provided solution.
> 
> .. would think it to be a good idea to fork GameHub to provide the 
> decentralized game list and the binding.

Forking is a last resort. If you want to do this we should try to work
with GameHub developers to add the feature. Especially since it is
written in Vala which I suspect most people don't know.

The way GameHub works it lists all games from the various connected
stores. I don't think this would work for distribution games. Fedora
includes a lot of games and I think it would quickly become
unmanageable. I think you would need to display only those installed
and allow a search for more to install.

-- 
Dennis Payne
du...@identicalsoftware.com
https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@dulsi



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Michael McMahon]

Hi!

These game jam threads are an interesting read, but there are some 
misunderstandings about what the purpose of a game jam is in this thread 
and the other thread Global Game Jam.  This is long, but I hope it is 
informative.


If anyone with experience running a game jam wants to host a game jam in 
connection with LibrePlanet conference, reach out to the FSF Campaigns 
team at campai...@fsf.org to get this idea rolling. The small FSF staff 
typically all has roles to play during the conference so this task would 
need to come from volunteers if you are serious about making it happen.  
None of the FSF staff have experience running a game jam that I am aware 
of.  A libre game jam related to LibrePlanet would probably need to be 
before the conference to not distract from the talks.  The games could 
be presented during the Lightning Talks portion of the conference.


A jam is usually a very short period of time where various groups of 
people with different skill sets compete to make something surrounding a 
theme or set of restrictions.  The theme and restrictions are mechanisms 
to mitigate groups from using the jam to release or popularize something 
that they have been secretly working on for months.  The purpose of a 
jam is education, socialization, and friendly competition while gaining 
functional experience through creating something in an area that they 
are interested in.  There are many different types of jams.  Ones that 
are related to these threads are game jams and game art jams [1]. A game 
jam usually results in several people hacking on a concept and pulling 
all-nighters to deliver a somewhat functional concept of a game.  A game 
jam team might be composed of programmers, writers, and artists.  A game 
art jam is where teams of artists create art assets that can be used by 
other games.


Game jam games are not expected to result in complete games, package 
their software in repositories, continue development after the jam, or 
become AAA games.  To demand or expect these things from a game jam is 
an unreasonable expectation.  A successful Libre Game Jam should only be 
expected to produce game concepts released under a free software 
compatible license using free culture assets where the majority of 
participants learn something through the process.  Anything else would 
be going above and beyond what is typically expected from a jam.


There are a great deal of free software games that have come out of 
various game jams over the years since the trend began.  Even game jams 
that are not explicitly focused around free software have developed many 
free software games.  If you can find the code and the licensing is 
correct or correctable, anyone can pick up where they left off.  Keep in 
mind that fixing a licensing issue becomes increasingly difficult as 
time passes as getting in contact with a dissolved team or minors is 
difficult.


In order for amateur programmers or hobbyists to make a game technical 
demonstration in 48 hours or one week, the code is often similar to 
spaghetti.  The short time frame requires taking shortcuts and hacks to 
make something fast [2].  To continue development on a game jam game, 
the first step would probably require refactoring the code which takes 
development time.  The code is usually is found in an archive file 
released by the game jam organizers so continued development would need 
to move to a software forge as well.


Packaging software for various distributions is a different set of 
skills than would normally be expected from a group of game development 
volunteers with no sleep.  Organizers of a such an event could plan to 
take these additional steps with the games or mentor the winners through 
the process.  If the licensing checks out, there is nothing stopping 
anyone from packaging and maintaining the games in their distribution of 
choice.  Someone could start the first Game Package Jam where groups 
compete to see who can upstream the most libre games to the Debian 
repositories based around a certain theme.


Other creative game jam concepts with a focused scope:

Libre Game License Jam where groups reach out to Game Jam repositories 
to fix or start licensing issues and pull requests.


Libre Game Fork Jam where groups fork libre game jam games and make 
improvements, retheme, or change to a completely different game.


Libre Game Doc Jam where groups find libre game jam games without 
documentation and write instructions about how to compile, play, or 
modify the game.  Many game jam games do not have any documentation as 
the groups would typically include the what, why, and how through a 
presentation while showing the game to judges. These ceremonies are 
typically done in person and not published so the documentation is lost.


Libre Game Mod Jam where groups mod games with extension capabilities 
such as Minetest.


Libre Level Jam where groups make level packs for libre games.

Disclaimer: I have never 

Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

> Packaging a program in distros is crucial for the community because 
it leads to various teams that independently work on the program, and 
thus have a chance to make sure it is honest.  This is why free software 
tends not to be malware.
> You may be right that it doesn't particularly help on other 
dimensions, but this one is a must. -- RMS


I agree. So what about making a GUI frontend as Digital Distribution 
Platform ("DDP") that has bindings to the available package managers?


Meaning having a list of games in GUI like 
(https://gitlab.com/librebob/athenaeum) to address the issue with 
discoverability and then using the available packaging solution to 
manage the game?


e.g. Installing SuperTuxKart from GUI for the software to detect the OS 
and do:
a) User on Trisquel -> If supertuxkart is packaged then `apt-get install 
supertuxkart --yes`
b) User on ArchLinux -> if supertuxkart is packaged then `pacman -Suy 
supertuxkart`

etc..

Might also be a good idea to use this frontend to organize the Game Jam 
and enable community to do their own if needed as currently the only way 
to do that efficiently is itch.io which has freedom issues.


Proof-of-concept: GameHub  which is 
a GUI frontend to various DDPs that handles the installation through the 
provided solution.


.. would think it to be a good idea to fork GameHub to provide the 
decentralized game list and the binding.


On 1/2/22 07:59, Richard Stallman wrote:

You may be right that it doesn't particularly help on other dimensions,
but this one is a must.


--
-- Jacob Hrbek



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

> So by Libre Game development tournament! are we talking about a
competition to see who can come up with the best game ? -- Paul

Yes, That's how i see my idea.. Where the problems that i can see is how
to make it fair, competetive and how to get sufficient amount of
submissions while promoting the development of Free Software Games + how
to decide who won.

On 1/1/22 10:07, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss wrote:

So by Libre Game development tournament! are we talking about a
competition to see who can come up with the best game ?


--
-- Jacob Hrbek



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

> Wouldn't packaging for specific distros make the game less
accessible? Creating a specific guix or flatpak (or even debian or arch)
repository
could allow more access to the game(s) rather than waiting for
distribution maintainers to act.

My idea of using GNU Guix was that guix is kernel and userland
independent package manager that doesn't create conflicts with other
package managers so i was thinking as integrating it into a backend to
handle the packaging across multiple systems to avoid hard dependency on
downstream.

Practical example: you can install guix on e.g. on GNU Trisquel and use
guix packages alongside apt packages from trisquel and guix can be
cleanly removed on demand after the fact.

On 12/31/21 06:33, Theodore Somers wrote:

Wouldn't packaging for specific distros make the game less accessible?
Creating a specific guix or flatpak (or even debian or arch) repository
could allow more access to the game(s) rather than waiting for
d

istribution maintainers to act.

--
-- Jacob Hrbek



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Packaging a program in distros is crucial for the community because it
leads to various teams that independently work on the program, and
thus have a chance to make sure it is honest.  This is why free
software tends not to be malware.

You may be right that it doesn't particularly help on other dimensions,
but this one is a must.

Also, we in our community use distros of GNU/Linux, so if we sponsor or promote
a program (game or not) we will want it to be packaged for our distros.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Theodore Somers]

On 12/30/21 8:26 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

For practical success, it is desirable to make the game easy to
install.

To respect users' freedom, it is important to avoid dependence on any
nonfree software.

To let the community make sure the program is safe and not malware, we
need to encourage users to package the program for distros.  (See
https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html.)

It is important to achieve all three goals.  The second is often
ignored, but then the free software idea is forgotten.
The third is one we often forget.

Can you find a good way to achieve all three?

Wouldn't packaging for specific distros make the game less accessible? 
Creating a specific guix or flatpak (or even debian or arch) repository 
could allow more access to the game(s) rather than waiting for 
distribution maintainers to act.


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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Dennis Payne]

Was it a success? It created a lot of additional artwork in the style
of lpc. In that respect I consider it great. But did the jam entries
amount to anything. Here is a list of entries:

https://libregamewiki.org/Liberated_Pixel_Cup

I just looked at a few links. Several github links no longer work. I
don't know if the code is still available. I did not find any that have
had recent release. I don't know if any are included in any
distribution. (I would like to try out some of the games and maybe fix
them up but none of them became a hit game to my knowledge.)

On Thu, 2021-12-30 at 18:35 -0500, John Sullivan wrote:
> Years ago, we were a partner in the Liberated Pixel Cup, which was a
> pretty big success. Might be worth looking back on:
> https://lpc.opengameart.org/
> 
> -john
> 
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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

> To let the community make sure the program is safe and not malware,
we need to encourage users to package the program for distros. (See
https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html.)
> It is important to achieve all three goals. The second is often
ignored, but then the free software idea is forgotten.
> The third is one we often forget.
> Can you find a good way to achieve all three? -- RMS

While i do agree that distro packaging is important and should always be
available i don't think that relying on it is a good idea for this
usecase as:
a) not all distro maintainers make the process user-friendly enough
(afaik only OpenSUSE and Manjaro has one-click installations)
b) I am not aware of any distro maintainer that has any positive impact
on helping with discoverability.
c) lot of distros introduce functional limitations e.g. apt which from
my experience requires a lot of painful debugging to get the
modification to build and instal
l on the system and is rarely reproducible.
d) Currently the majority of Free Softaware Games are funded by the
community e.g. 0ad and mindustry (with exception alike Wolfenstein which
provide the game engine and tools without the game levels that are
paywalled to sustain the development). I am not aware of any distro
maintainer that enables the user to help with funding lot of the times
the user is not even aware that the developer accepts donations.

So few ideas assuming that the projected optimal solution is to provide
a user-friendly way of installing games without depending on distro/OS
packaging:

1) GNU Guix  has a way to define upstream
packages AND environment to provide required build dependencies using
one command e.g. `guix shell -m path/to/manifest -- make install` to
install the package without depending on downstream of the distro so
that the user can build the package or grab a cached derivation to skip
build.

I th
ink that making this one-click like OpenSUSE is doing and adding a
GUI would make the process more user-friendly to be used outside of GNU
GuixSD (SD = Standalone Distribution, the package manager is independent
and works alongside other package managers) as Digital Distribution
Platform ("DDP" meaning platform providing solution to manage games e.g.
non-free Steam).

2) There is Athenaeum (https://gitlab.com/librebob/athenaeum) which is a
flatpak frontend focused on games that installs them using one-click,
but flatpaks are usually significantly inefficient and you have to trust
whoever made the flatpak definition.

3) Lutris  which integrates multiple compatibility
layers and emulators to play non-linux games and it's installation is
one-click, but it has too many issues to be usable in practice (at least
last time i checked i had to restart the installation process multiple
times, maintainer was unwilling to merge fixes and the code ba
se needing
a lot of refactoring to be usable)

4) Desura  **WAS** an LGPL v2.1
(https://github.com/desura) competitor to Steam which source code is
still available on https://github.com/desura/Desurium which seems to be
sufficiently functional as a solution, but it would need reviving of the
project.

5. Snap Store  has same
issues as flatpak (inefficient, trust to whoever made the definition).

FWIW i think it's also important to take a look at how itch.io and other
DDPs allow advertising by the game developers e.g.
https://supertuxkart.itch.io/supertuxkart which is what they do to
handle discoverability.

On 12/31/21 05:26, Richard Stallman wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

For pr

actical success, it is desirable to make the game easy to

install.

To respect users' freedom, it is important to avoid dependence on any
nonfree software.

To let the community make sure the program is safe and not malware, we
need to encourage users to package the program for distros.  (See
https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html.)

It is important to achieve all three goals.  The second is often
ignored, but then the free software idea is forgotten.
The third is one we often forget.

Can you find a good way to achieve all three?

--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



--
-- Jacob Hrbek



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Dennis Payne]

Libre Game Wiki is good but most lists like this has things that can be
hard to get running or things too early in development to be a good
recommendation. Free software games tend not to have binaries. We need
to make it easy to install. Flatpak/flathub is a possible solution to
that problem. For Anagramarama I decided to make Linux binaries
available on the web site and uploaded it to itch.io for a low price to
help development of free software games. I also got it included in
Fedora.

My personal attempt to improve the situation is with an achievement
system. Gamerzilla allows you to publish achievements online. Friends
can then go to your Gamerzilla site and see what games you have been
playing. I like to think of it as a virtual bookshelf where you can see
what your friends find to be worthwhile. If your friend tried game X
but only got one achievements and got twenty on another game, he
probably liked that other game more.

My Gamerzilla test site is:
http://108.49.106.217/

http://identicalsoftware.com/gamerzilla/


-- 
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du...@identicalsoftware.com
https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@dulsi



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss]

On 01/01/2022 04:47, Richard Stallman wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

   > Wouldn't packaging for specific distros make the game less accessible?

No.  It would make the game very accessible on some distros and have
no effect on the other distros.  It could be packaged for other
distros too.

   > Creating a specific guix or flatpak (or even debian or arch) repository
   > could allow more access to the game(s)

I think we are talking at cross purposes.  Is there a difference
between a "Debian repository" and packaging the program for Debian?
Is there a difference between a "guix repository" and packaging the
program for Guix?

I do not trust flatpack in regard to freedom issues.




So by Libre Game development tournament! are we talking about a 
competition to see who can come up with the best game ?


Just asking for clarity

Regards

Paul


--
--
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https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/
Pronoun : him/his/he
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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Wouldn't packaging for specific distros make the game less accessible? 

No.  It would make the game very accessible on some distros and have
no effect on the other distros.  It could be packaged for other
distros too.

  > Creating a specific guix or flatpak (or even debian or arch) repository 
  > could allow more access to the game(s)

I think we are talking at cross purposes.  Is there a difference
between a "Debian repository" and packaging the program for Debian?
Is there a difference between a "guix repository" and packaging the
program for Guix?

I do not trust flatpack in regard to freedom issues.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

For practical success, it is desirable to make the game easy to
install.

To respect users' freedom, it is important to avoid dependence on any
nonfree software.

To let the community make sure the program is safe and not malware, we
need to encourage users to package the program for distros.  (See
https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html.)

It is important to achieve all three goals.  The second is often
ignored, but then the free software idea is forgotten.
The third is one we often forget.

Can you find a good way to achieve all three?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > We already have a pretty good wiki, not hold by FSF and perhaps not using
  > the same criteria the FSD uses, but it can be a first strong base to begin 
with:

  > https://libregamewiki.org/

If you send me the list of criteria for listing a game there, I could
tell you what the GNU Project and the FSF would say about the site.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[John Sullivan]

Years ago, we were a partner in the Liberated Pixel Cup, which was a
pretty big success. Might be worth looking back on:
https://lpc.opengameart.org/

-john



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

We can do something to help with that.  The first step is to add entries

in directory.fsf.org for them.

Then we could make another page with a list of these free games

and put it on gnu.org/software.  It could have 5-10 lines of description
of each game.

WDYT? -- RMS


There is a https://libregamewiki.org/ which already does this and seem to get 
around same traffic as FSD, but it doesn't seem to have a major impact on 
discoverability of these games.

So i think that adding a page to FSD about free games would help, but I doubt 
it would have a major impact on discoverability without the proposed game jam 
or other means of promotion.

On 12/30/21 05:28, Richard Stallman wrote:

We can do something to help with that.  The first step is to add entries
in directory.fsf.org for them.

Then we could make another page with a list of these free games
and put it on gnu.org/software.  It could have 5-10 lines of description
of each game.

WDYT?


--
-- Jaco
b Hrbek



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss]

On 30/12/2021 08:34, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:

Hello!

I was just casually glancing through my email inbox and this caught my 
attention!

Recently, I have become convinced that a viable way to start a new 
collaborative society is through community efforts in having fun, developing 
our own video games together and by extension, creating rich interactive 
educational content!  Not only the content itself, even the process of making 
the game itself can be made into an educational content (like the show 
PowerNation )

  I am discussing with a few people and hopefully we will start to do something 
next year .

In my opinion, Education is the key to everything, and in terms of computer 
programming, it is the way to simplify software with better algorithm, rather 
than mindlessly putting together unaccountable libraries (NPM??)

Cheers,
Yasu



Hi Yasu

This sounds like a good idea,  however at times I feel we end up just 
reinventing the wheel with things.


There are lots of platforms out there, that teach programming,

https://www.freecodecamp.org is one,  https://www.codecademy.org is 
another,  with the former their tutorials go beyond the courses on offer 
and cover a whole range of areas, including making games.


I have put info below at [1] on a recent free code camp course.


Perhaps we can make use of these existing assets, while people can 
follow the courses,  surely the language is the same, e.g c/c++ just the 
tools used can vary, so here we would prefer to use the gnu tools for 
example.


Many assets are shared via youtube,  so we can do the same via peertube, 
  I am on Diode.zone but the other instance I am on qoto.org for 
mastodon also hosts a peertube instance, so perhaps make use of what is 
already there.


Make more use of Mastodon for communication too, this will hopefully 
have the effect of showing Mastodon is not only active but has engaging 
and education conversations too.


Given the huge number of choices and options out there, it is really 
confusing for people as to where to get started with learning .  I set 
up a forum at


https://forum.tuxiversity.org/

to try and address some of this, so if you want to study say web design, 
then where do you start,  html is the same, different courses will teach 
you pretty much the same content,  lets help people take the first steps 
and support them.


The biggest problem is person power,  people having the time to dedicate 
to creating the content and supporting people with that.


People need to earn money to buy food, pay bills and put a roof over 
their heads, so if someone is going to take the time / effort to learn 
something then at the end of that there HAS to be doors opening in to 
paid work.


Perhaps as part of this, where there are jobs wuth say nextcloud, or 
other free software projects we, can see what skills are needed and 
perhaps help taylor education to help fit some of these requirements


Lets explore your ideas further

Hope this helps

Regards

Paul


References

Recent offering from free code camp

"
1. We did it. We built a video game. It took 8 months, but Learn To Code 
RPG is now live, and you can play it for yourself. In this visual novel 
video game, you learn to code, make friends, and apply for developer jobs.


It features original anime-inspired art and a jazz soundtrack written 
and performed by me. There are more than 600 Computer Science concept 
quiz questions, dozens of Easter eggs to discover, and multiple endings. 
And it's all open source.


It runs on PC, Mac, and Linux, and we'll soon publish mobile versions of 
the game, too. You can also watch the 1-hour "let's play" video with 
Ania Kubow and the game's developer, Lynn Zheng. (fully playable 3 hour 
game): https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/learn-to-code-rpg/

"



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Yasuaki Kudo]

Hello!

I was just casually glancing through my email inbox and this caught my 
attention!  

Recently, I have become convinced that a viable way to start a new 
collaborative society is through community efforts in having fun, developing 
our own video games together and by extension, creating rich interactive 
educational content!  Not only the content itself, even the process of making 
the game itself can be made into an educational content (like the show 
PowerNation )

 I am discussing with a few people and hopefully we will start to do something 
next year .

In my opinion, Education is the key to everything, and in terms of computer 
programming, it is the way to simplify software with better algorithm, rather 
than mindlessly putting together unaccountable libraries (NPM??)

Cheers,
Yasu


> On Dec 30, 2021, at 13:30, Richard Stallman  wrote:
> 
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>> In a lot of ways I think the bigger problem for free software games is
>> discoverability. Have you played Smalltrek? How about Witch's Blast?
>> OpenAlchemist? Diver Down? Mindcrosser? Hijinx: A Christmas Capper?
>> Seahorse Adventures? Shattered Pixel Dungeon? Anagramarama? Ardentryst?
> 
> We can do something to help with that.  The first step is to add entries
> in directory.fsf.org for them.
> 
> Then we could make another page with a list of these free games
> and put it on gnu.org/software.  It could have 5-10 lines of description
> of each game.
> 
> WDYT?
> 
>> Non-free game engines I agree with. I think non-free tools is not
>> enforceable. If the developer uses free content from opengameart.org or
>> other sites, they may have no idea how the content was created. It
>> makes sense to not allow non-free tools to build the game.
> 
> I agree that there is nothing to be gained by making rules about how
> the files _were_ written or tested.  Or about what tools a participant
> privately uses.  If you prefer to use a non-free text editor, that has
> no effect on anyone else, so we have no reason to bother you about
> that.  We don't even need to ask what you actually use.
> 
> The rules that make sense are about what the release program allows
> developers to do to develop it further.  So every file should be suitable
> for editing with a free editor, and compiling with a free compiler, etc.
> 
> 
> Side issue.  May I suggest not using the word "content" to describe
> works of authorship or art?  That term subtly denigrates _all_ of them.
> 
> See https://gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html.
> 
> -- 
> Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
> 
> 
> 
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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > In a lot of ways I think the bigger problem for free software games is
  > discoverability. Have you played Smalltrek? How about Witch's Blast?
  > OpenAlchemist? Diver Down? Mindcrosser? Hijinx: A Christmas Capper?
  > Seahorse Adventures? Shattered Pixel Dungeon? Anagramarama? Ardentryst?

We can do something to help with that.  The first step is to add entries
in directory.fsf.org for them.

Then we could make another page with a list of these free games
and put it on gnu.org/software.  It could have 5-10 lines of description
of each game.

WDYT?

  > Non-free game engines I agree with. I think non-free tools is not
  > enforceable. If the developer uses free content from opengameart.org or
  > other sites, they may have no idea how the content was created. It
  > makes sense to not allow non-free tools to build the game.

I agree that there is nothing to be gained by making rules about how
the files _were_ written or tested.  Or about what tools a participant
privately uses.  If you prefer to use a non-free text editor, that has
no effect on anyone else, so we have no reason to bother you about
that.  We don't even need to ask what you actually use.

The rules that make sense are about what the release program allows
developers to do to develop it further.  So every file should be suitable
for editing with a free editor, and compiling with a free compiler, etc.


Side issue.  May I suggest not using the word "content" to describe
works of authorship or art?  That term subtly denigrates _all_ of them.

See https://gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

I agree that one game jam won't cause a sudden influx of free software
games.. From my experience I think the effects of it will be seen after
+- 3rd iteration assuming that we are able to provide a sufficient:
1. promotion
2. economical support
3. preparation time (at least 1 month in advance)

for the game developers to keep their development going after the game jam.

I also agree that game jam submission usually get abandoned for reasons
highlighted in previous e-mail (in short due to the development
sustainability), but game jams with sufficient promotion are usually
maintained after the jam ended unless the theme was to make a short game
e.g. (random selection of games from LudumDare that seems to be
complying with GPLv3):
1. https://github.com/cagibi-dev/warhead-stroll Ludum Dare 49 ("LD49")
submission https://ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/49/warhead-stroll
2. https://github.com/HolyBlackCat/LD49-brimstone LD49 submission
https://ldjam.com/events/ludum-d
are/49/brimstone
3. https://github.com/Jezzamonn/dogsplusplus LD49 Submission
https://ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/49/dogs
4. https://github.com/MausGames/last-fall LD49 submission
https://ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/49/last-fall
etc..

And even if the game gets abandoned in Free Software Game Jam then
anyone can take over and maintain if which i assume will happen on
regular bases if the submission is good.

Also if our goal is to stimulate development of Free Software games then
we should adapt the game jam to discourage making a short games (lot of
game jams are done for development exercise that are designed to not be
developed after the jam ended).

On 12/29/21 18:30, Dennis Payne wrote:

I don't think a game jam will cause a sudden influx of quality free
software games. I don't think it is a bad idea to have one but I doubt
it will be a great source of quality free software games. Jam games are
not typically developed further beyond the jam.



In a lot of ways I think the bigger problem for free software games is

discoverability. Have you played Smalltrek? How about Witch's Blast?
OpenAlchemist? Diver Down? Mindcrosser? Hijinx: A Christmas Capper?
Seahorse Adventures? Shattered Pixel Dungeon? Anagramarama? Ardentryst?


3. Ban any non-free game engines and any non-free tools e.g. to

require using GNU GIMP instead of AS Photoshop.

Non-free game engines I agree with. I think non-free tools is not
enforceable. If the developer uses free content from opengameart.org or
other sites, they may have no idea how the content was created. It
makes sense to not allow non-free tools to build the game.

I agree that using itch.io for the jam would be easiest but I don't
think the site is free software. Many of the tools they create are such
as the itch.io app and butler.



--
Dennis Payne
du...@identicalsoftware.com
https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@dulsi



--
-- Jacob Hr
bek



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Dennis Payne]

I don't think a game jam will cause a sudden influx of quality free
software games. I don't think it is a bad idea to have one but I doubt
it will be a great source of quality free software games. Jam games are
not typically developed further beyond the jam.

In a lot of ways I think the bigger problem for free software games is
discoverability. Have you played Smalltrek? How about Witch's Blast?
OpenAlchemist? Diver Down? Mindcrosser? Hijinx: A Christmas Capper?
Seahorse Adventures? Shattered Pixel Dungeon? Anagramarama? Ardentryst?

> 3. Ban any non-free game engines and any non-free tools e.g. to
require using GNU GIMP instead of AS Photoshop.

Non-free game engines I agree with. I think non-free tools is not
enforceable. If the developer uses free content from opengameart.org or
other sites, they may have no idea how the content was created. It
makes sense to not allow non-free tools to build the game.

I agree that using itch.io for the jam would be easiest but I don't
think the site is free software. Many of the tools they create are such
as the itch.io app and butler.



-- 
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du...@identicalsoftware.com
https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@dulsi



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Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!

[Jacob Hrbek]

> This might be fun, but it would be a lot of work and would need 
leaders who are familiar with free software game development, plus 
leaders who know how to run an event. -- RMS


Agree, i asked relevant developers who have experience with Free 
Software Game Development to join the list and provide their insight + I 
try to contact people organizing open-source / linux game jams to help 
with organization.


I already talked with some of them in terms of organization and i've 
compiled this list of suggestions:
1. provide a handling for "troll submissions" which are usually very 
common in game jams.

2. Consider providing a theme
3. Ban any non-free game engines and any non-free tools e.g. to require 
using GNU GIMP instead of A$ Photoshop.

4. Ban any non-free game assets excluding Creative Commons.
5. Require the game license to be GPLv3 complying
6. Clarification whether the developer can work solo or in a team (teams 
usually have an advantage over solo developers)
7. Require that the game be developed after the event started (to avoid 
people submitting their long finished games to give everyone a fair chance)
8. Game requiring minimum of X ratings (assuming the community deciding 
which game should win) to be placed in leaderboard.
9. The game jam should be a recurring event e.g. 4x a year as one-time 
game jams are not appealing to the game development as the main 
advantage to participating is to get promotion to sustain the further 
development.
10. In general the price pool for game jams is crowd sourced once the 
game jams gets to be known enough for sufficient amount of people to 
participate, but new game jams should have an initial price pool and 
method for people to donate to it. The target price pool should be in 
 range that enables the top 3~8+ submission to get a sufficient 
economical boost to help with development. Without price pool the games 
usually end up being an abadonware.
11. Fork policy as forking an already finished/worked on game gives the 
contestant an advantage, but open-source game jam should have this 
allowed assuming that their fork provides a significant functionality 
(maybe a separate category?)
12. Provide a list of Free Software Tools so that people who are not 
familiar with Free Software has the resources to know how to participate.
13. The event should be announced +- 1 month in advance with a heavy 
promotion and usually the theme is announced at the day where the event 
starts to avoid people working on a game prior to the event to get an 
unfair advantage.
14. The open-source jam  provides a 
"Open-Source Karma" points which are points for following best practices 
alike provided README, etc.. that increase the change of win, this 
should also be included in LibreJam.


> The mailing lists you sent your message to are either (1) not the 
FSF's or (2) meant for other things.  Maybe discus...@fsfla.org is ok 
for this purpose.  fsf-community-team is not meant to be a discussion 
list. -- RMS


1. I wanted to include Free Software Australia. i know that they are not 
part of FSF, but they are a group of volunteers spreading Free Software 
in Australia that are compatible with values of FSF such as 
https://freesoftware.org.au/hardware-and-software-recommendation. So i 
though that they might provide their point of view on this proposal. 
They can be excluded from the discussion if you feel like it's 
inappropriate.


2. My fault! Moved the discussion from fsf-community-team to 
libreplanet-discuss.


On 12/29/21 05:51, Richard Stallman wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

This might be fun, but it would be a lot of work and would need
leaders who are familiar with free software game development,
plus leaders who know how to run an event.

The mailing lists you sent your message to are either (1) not the
FSF's or (2) meant for other things.  Maybe discus...@fsfla.org is ok
for this purpose.  fsf-community-team is not meant to be a discussion
list.

--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)



On 12/28/21 11:43, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
There are too many overhyped proprietary games that are either 
unplayable or are just a rewrite of something that already exists and 
not enough libre games that are worth the time playing where from my 
talks with the relevant game developers seems to be mainly due to the 
economy of developing more complicated games and their inability to 
promote the games to the general public to sustain the development.


Thus as a solution i am proposing for FSF* network to cooperate and 
host a "Libre Game Jam" as in a recurring tournament that anyone can