Re: [Lightning-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-05 Thread Vincenzo Palazzo
Ciao Laolu & list,

> Vincenzo wrote:
> > A problem that I see with http://delvingbitcoin.org/ is what happens 10
> > years from now?
>
> Who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯? The Bitcoin mailing list started on Sourceforge, then
> moved between another instance before finding its home today on the Linux
> foundation mailing lists. The developer base is what matters, not
> where the forum we all use to coordinate is hosted.

ofc, my point was not to use a tool that lives 4ever but to use a
format that gives
the possibility of storing the information somewhere
in a single format where future people can access our conversion.

e.g: The Linux kernel does something with https://lore.kernel.org and
I can read the email that Rusty sent in 2001
https://lore.kernel.org/all/m14fHjL-001PKjC@mozart/

What I do not understand is if we choose to delvingbitcoin (that looks
like working pretty well with email) we will be able to
migrate to another service by bringing the conversation with us?
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Re: [Lightning-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-05 Thread Peter Todd
On Mon, Dec 04, 2023 at 07:19:41PM -0500, James O'Beirne wrote:
> Please see https://github.com/jamesob/delving-bitcoin-archive, which anyone 
> can run an instance of themselves.

Looks like that's missing images unfortunately, which are being frequently
used. Do you know of a way to fix that?

It also lacks authentication of course. But that's probably an essentially
unsolvable problem with the tech available to us.

-- 
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org


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Re: [Lightning-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-05 Thread James O'Beirne
Please see https://github.com/jamesob/delving-bitcoin-archive, which anyone can 
run an instance of themselves.

On December 4, 2023 3:48:59 PM EST, Peter Todd  wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 04, 2023 at 12:35:32PM -0800, Matt Corallo wrote:
>> Ah, there was also some concern over archiving of a discourse, which we'd
>> hoped was trivial through "mailing list mode", but apparently that may not
>> be the case. Further thoughts on that are welcome.
>
>You mean archiving of discourse on delvingbitcoin.org?
>
>I think that's a serious problem if there's no good way to mirror
>delvingbitcoin.org. It is very easy to archive email lists, and anyone can do
>it (I'm archiving lightning-dev, bitcoin-dev myself, among others). Also, email
>list archives naturally lead themselves to decent authentication, both via PGP
>and more commonly, DMIK, making archives authenticatable. I don't see any way
>that delvingbitcoin.org could ever replicate that beyond mere timestamps.
>
>I'll be the first to say that timestamping is pretty weak security. Better than
>nothing. But they aren't good.
>
>-- 
>https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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Re: [Lightning-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-05 Thread Olaoluwa Osuntokun
> Some folks indicated they'd like to interact with it via the supposed
> "mailing list mode", but sadly AJ indicated it may not be super reliable
> (and seems to be disabled on delvingbitcoin.org). I've asked AJ to enable
> it so people can maybe try it out but we'll see if it works. Sadly if you
> don't enable this mode it appears you cannot post via email.

FWIW, I made an account today, activated email mode, and confirmed I can get
the emails np: https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/this-is-a-shitpost-thread/249/2.

AJ says he disabled it, but I think he just disabled the ability to _send_
emails into and have them be picked up.

I found a better resource re how to use Discourse _purely_ via email from
Mozilla's instance:
https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/how-do-i-use-discourse-via-email/15279.  You
can even just send an email to create topics as well.

Initially I was worried that I wouldn't to get email notifications from
_just_ the lightning-dev sub-forum, but from the link above, you can filter
based on the headers they set in the email (filter out for just the forum
you care about).

If AJ doesn't want to enable inbound mail, then we can make our own
instance for lightning-dev.

Peter Todd wrote:
> Also, email list archives naturally lead themselves to decent
> authentication, both via PGP and more commonly, DMIK, making archives
> authenticatable

Re archiving: today anyone can start to get an archive of the entire forum
by signing up for the mailing list mode. James OB has also created an
external tool that'll let Chroniclers archive the existing forum, or any new
one: https://github.com/jamesob/discourse-archive.

Vincenzo wrote:
> A problem that I see with http://delvingbitcoin.org/ is what happens 10
> years from now?

Who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯? The Bitcoin mailing list started on Sourceforge, then
moved between another instance before finding its home today on the Linux
foundation mailing lists. The developer base is what matters, not
where the forum we all use to coordinate is hosted.

-- Laolu

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:46 PM Vincenzo Palazzo <
vincenzopalazzo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A problem that I see with http://delvingbitcoin.org/ is what happens
> 10 years from now?
>
> I am more in favour of keeping the ML (and I can host it because I
> have a couple of projects that need an ML too) because
> 10 years from now we are sure that the mail is still alive.
>
> In addition, I was going to try https://lists.sr.ht as a list, maybe
> we can use it as a backup list? like an archive-ln-list or something?
>
> However, I am not a blocker for people who want to use
> http://delvingbitcoin.org/
> it is accessible enough also for screen readers
>
>Vincent.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 9:35 PM Matt Corallo 
> wrote:
> >
> > Ah, there was also some concern over archiving of a discourse, which
> we'd hoped was trivial through
> > "mailing list mode", but apparently that may not be the case. Further
> thoughts on that are welcome.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > On 12/4/23 12:32 PM, Matt Corallo wrote:
> > > On the call the vote was split between "host our own ML, or maybe use
> groups.io" and "some discourse
> > > instance, probably delvingbitcoin.org", with a weak majority for the
> second.
> > >
> > > With that in mind, we're gonna give delvingbitcoin.org a try, at
> least for two weeks, and then we
> > > can come back to this and discuss!
> > >
> > > Some folks indicated they'd like to interact with it via the supposed
> "mailing list mode", but sadly
> > > AJ indicated it may not be super reliable (and seems to be disabled on
> delvingbitcoin.org). I've
> > > asked AJ to enable it so people can maybe try it out but we'll see if
> it works. Sadly if you don't
> > > enable this mode it appears you cannot post via email.
> > >
> > > See-also discussion of using a category vs tags at
> > >
> https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/can-we-get-a-lightning-protocol-design-category-wg/242/3
> > >
> > > Because this is new, we'll have another discussion in two weeks about
> if people are happy with this
> > > as a solution/if we should host our own discourse (not sure why)/if we
> should go back to the mailing
> > > list plan. Those who have a view can also respond to this email and
> I'll raise it in the meeting.
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > On 11/26/23 8:51 AM, Matt Corallo wrote:
> > >> During the last meeting it came up that the mailing list here will
> likely shut down somewhere
> > >> around the end of the year. We listed basically the following options
> for future discussion forums:
> > >>
> > >> * google groups as a mailing list hoster. One question was whether
> its friendly to subscribing
> > >> without a gmail account, which may be limiting to some.
> > >> * github discussions on the lightning org. One question is whether
> the moderation tools here are
> > >> sufficient.
> > >> * Someone (probably me) host a mailman instance and we use another
> mailing list. I dug into this a
> > >> bit and am happy to do this, on the one cond