Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Graham Breed]

2009/8/14 Joseph Wakeling :

> I'd prefer not to do that for semantic reasons.  In my conception of
> arrow-notated quarter-tones, C-quarter-sharp is enharmonically, but not
> semantically, the same as C-sharp-quarter-flat (just as D# is
> enharmonically but not semantically the same as Eb).

What I think would be nice, and fully generic, is for the
accidental-assigning function to know the original name of the pitch
it's dealing with.  Then you could check if the name ends in "up" or
"down".  I don't know how to do this.

Otherwise, if you want the semantics to differ, you'll have to explain
what the difference is.


   Graham


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Joseph Wakeling]

Graham Breed wrote:
> Oh, I didn't realize Google were covering this.  I've done some work
> with Lilypond and microtonality.  Somebody said I should add something
> to the snippets repository, but I've been lazy, so I haven't done
> that.  There are examples in this bundle:
> 
> http://x31eq.com/magic/tripod-code.zip

Thanks for that!  It will take time to digest (both the musical concepts
and the Lilypond implementation) but looks fascinating and beautiful.

> That can be done with a function to switch between different sets of
> accidentals.  So \preferNaturals and \preferSharps, for example.
> There may be ways of combining this with \once and \tweak as well.

I'd prefer not to do that for semantic reasons.  In my conception of
arrow-notated quarter-tones, C-quarter-sharp is enharmonically, but not
semantically, the same as C-sharp-quarter-flat (just as D# is
enharmonically but not semantically the same as Eb).

> If you insist on a certain spelling of quartertones, doesn't that
> become a crap shoot anyway when you combine it with transpositions?
> Like, if you have the quartertone below C, and you want it to be C
> sharp up rather than C down, and then you transpose it up a semitone,
> what would the correct spelling be?  How is the user supposed to
> specify the correct spelling for both cases?

My approach for all 'standard' transpositions would be 'transpose the
underlying notes chromatically and keep the arrows the same'.  So
C-flat-up (I think that's what you meant) would become C-up and C-down
would become C-sharp-down.  The question is how to implement that
successfully ... :-)

Quarter-tone transposition is more tricky but it's probably best to
start with standard transposition first.

> I believe there's  already a snippet for chromatic transposition.
> That's probably the place to start for some of these issues.
> Transposition certainly works for quartertones (and I've tested more
> "interesting" situations) but you will get sharp-and-a-halfs coming
> out.  But then normal transpositions might give you double sharps.  If
> you don't want that I don't think it's a new issue with microtonality.

OK, I will look into that and see if I can incorporate it into the
material I have already prepared.  If it works I will prepare a snippet
for LSR that can perhaps in the long run be combined with Maximilian's
proposed patch here.

Incidentally, does that mean that an option for chromatic transposition
is not a standard part of Lilypond?  It was a question I'd meant to ask
previously, though not in relation to the microtonal issue.

Best wishes,

-- Joe


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Graham Breed]

2009/8/13 Joseph Wakeling :

> A few comments on the proposed patches for microtonal arrow notation.
> I've already noted these on the Google Code Issue dedicated to this topic:
> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=694

Oh, I didn't realize Google were covering this.  I've done some work
with Lilypond and microtonality.  Somebody said I should add something
to the snippets repository, but I've been lazy, so I haven't done
that.  There are examples in this bundle:

http://x31eq.com/magic/tripod-code.zip

> Briefly, the concern is this: that arrowed accidentals for quarter-tones
> (and indeed other microtonal intervals) introduce some new issues
> related to enharmonic equivalence.  The note a quarter-sharp above A
> natural can be notated either A-natural-arrowup or A-sharp-arrowdown,
> and it may be desirable to use both within the same piece of music.
> Similar issues apply to quarter-flats.

That can be done with a function to switch between different sets of
accidentals.  So \preferNaturals and \preferSharps, for example.
There may be ways of combining this with \once and \tweak as well.

> The problem with this approach was that it generated significant errors
> in transposition.  It could not deal with the case when transposition
> suggested a pitch alteration of, say, +4999/4000, to say nothing of the
> case when pitches would be transposed by quarter-tones.  (I have to say
> that the latter is a very tricky case anyway.)

If you insist on a certain spelling of quartertones, doesn't that
become a crap shoot anyway when you combine it with transpositions?
Like, if you have the quartertone below C, and you want it to be C
sharp up rather than C down, and then you transpose it up a semitone,
what would the correct spelling be?  How is the user supposed to
specify the correct spelling for both cases?

> Beyond the need for natural-up and natural-down as well as sharp-up and
> sharp-down, my main concern for Maximilian's patches is that they will
> also run into transposition issues of this kind.  Has this been tested for?

I believe there's  already a snippet for chromatic transposition.
That's probably the place to start for some of these issues.
Transposition certainly works for quartertones (and I've tested more
"interesting" situations) but you will get sharp-and-a-halfs coming
out.  But then normal transpositions might give you double sharps.  If
you don't want that I don't think it's a new issue with microtonality.


 Graham


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Joseph Wakeling]

Dear Maximilian and others,

A few comments on the proposed patches for microtonal arrow notation.
I've already noted these on the Google Code Issue dedicated to this topic:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=694

... but obviously the -devel list is the place for serious discussion.

My own starting point on this was the quarter-tone arrow example given
in the NEWS section of LP 2.12:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/topdocs/cb/lily-a8064505.ly

... and I began a thread on the -user mailing list discussing my
concerns and attempting to develop a solution:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-04/msg00139.html

Briefly, the concern is this: that arrowed accidentals for quarter-tones
(and indeed other microtonal intervals) introduce some new issues
related to enharmonic equivalence.  The note a quarter-sharp above A
natural can be notated either A-natural-arrowup or A-sharp-arrowdown,
and it may be desirable to use both within the same piece of music.
Similar issues apply to quarter-flats.

The existing solution in the NEWS section does not address this,
permitting only one unique accidental for A-quarter-sharp.  I don't
think Maximilian's patches do either -- from what I can see they don't
include natural-up or -down accidentals.

I attempted to develop a solution to this with a slight cheat, by
defining a very slight difference between quarter-sharp (+999/4000
instead of +1/4), which would be notated as a natural sign with an arrow
up, and 'sharp-quarter-flat' (+1001/4000), which would be a sharp sign
with an arrow down.  A similar procedure was applied for quarter-flats.
 See:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-04/msg00649.html

The problem with this approach was that it generated significant errors
in transposition.  It could not deal with the case when transposition
suggested a pitch alteration of, say, +4999/4000, to say nothing of the
case when pitches would be transposed by quarter-tones.  (I have to say
that the latter is a very tricky case anyway.)

Beyond the need for natural-up and natural-down as well as sharp-up and
sharp-down, my main concern for Maximilian's patches is that they will
also run into transposition issues of this kind.  Has this been tested for?

A few more general comments.  In response to Graham Percival's remarks,

> Basically, I'm concerned about mixing the presentation and
> definition (content) of pitches this closely.  But I admit that
> I'm not very familiar with this area, so I'll bow out of the
> discussion now and let others comment.

I think the key problem is that up- and down-arrows can mean different
things in different musical contexts.  The typical use is to indicate
quarter-tones, but other composers have used them to indicate
eighth-tones (e.g. Ferneyhough in several works, where arrows are
applied not just to standard accidentals but also to the standard
quarter-tone accidentals that Lilypond already supports).  There are
surely still other uses for arrow notation that I'm not familiar with.

So with that in mind, it seems to me that the optimal approach is to
have an up/down notation as the standard, and then let users redefine
the pitch modifications (i.e. the values of SHARP-MICRO-UP etc.) as
needed.  This would mean the user could get the notation to mean what
they want with a minimal level of fiddling.  Probably it would be good
if the default values were quarter-tones as this is the most common
interpretation.

Note that even with that implementation, users wanting a more
content-oriented approach could define their own pitch notations (as I
did in my patches) suitable to their approach.  Lilypond could still
include some switches, as you suggest, to define notations for various
'standard' approaches.

Hope this email can lead to some productive development on Maximilian's
patches as I am keen to see more extensive microtonal possibilities
included in Lilypond.

Best wishes,

-- Joe


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Valentin Villenave]

2009/7/27 Graham Breed :
> They should work the way I did Sagittal -- by monkey patching
> Accidental to use an external font.  No need to change LilyPond, and
> you don't want every different microtonal system in the tracker, do
> you?

Graham, could you publicly document this? For instance, using the LSR
or wiki.lilynet.net (and since we now have the ability to embed fonts
with .ly files, it would be just great if we could offer ready-to-use
tarballs on lilynet for anyone interested with such notations).

Regards,
Valentin


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 06:41:33PM +0900, Maximilian Albert wrote:
> 2009/7/27 Graham Percival :
> > I'm not at all certain that these arrows should be indicated with
> > different pitch names -- why not define
> >  \accidentalArrowsOn
> >  \accidentalArrowsOff
> > or some such commands, then use the regular pitch names?
> 
> I guess for the same reason why you don't want generic \sharpOn,
> \sharpOff, \flatOn, \flatOff commands -- because arrowed accidentals
> indicate a pitch different from the regular one and you would still
> like to be able to easily use notes with arrowed accidentals along
> notes with regular accidentals. But I'm not a user of microtonal music
> at all, so let's wait for the experts to chime in.

Hmm.  Basically, I'm concerned about mixing the presentation and
definition (content) of pitches this closely.  But I admit that
I'm not very familiar with this area, so I'll bow out of the
discussion now and let others comment.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Graham Breed]

2009/7/27 Mark Polesky :

> While we're on the topic, please have a look at this:
>
> EXTENDED HELMHOLTZ-ELLIS JI PITCH NOTATION
> http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/legend.pdf
> http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-font-2009.zip
>
> A composer friend of mine said that a lot of his compositions use
> this particular set of non-standard accidentals and expressed the
> wish for LilyPond to support them. Can we add this to the tracker?
> I imagine that it shouldn't be too difficult to incorporate them,
> seeing what's already been done in this department.

They should work the way I did Sagittal -- by monkey patching
Accidental to use an external font.  No need to change LilyPond, and
you don't want every different microtonal system in the tracker, do
you?

Your friend can contact me if he wants directions.


 Graham


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Mark Polesky]

Valentin Villenave wrote:

> The issue on http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=694
> was never closed. I have now marked it as "started" (which I should
> have done when I opened it), to give a bit more visibility to your
> patches.

While we're on the topic, please have a look at this:

EXTENDED HELMHOLTZ-ELLIS JI PITCH NOTATION
http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/legend.pdf
http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-font-2009.zip

A composer friend of mine said that a lot of his compositions use
this particular set of non-standard accidentals and expressed the
wish for LilyPond to support them. Can we add this to the tracker?
I imagine that it shouldn't be too difficult to incorporate them,
seeing what's already been done in this department.

- Mark



  


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Valentin Villenave]

2009/7/27 Maximilian Albert :
> This has got buried for more than half
> a year (presumably because it was Christmas time when I sent my last
> email), but I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at it and let
> me know if it's OK to apply or what should be changed.

The issue on http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=694
was never closed. I have now marked it as "started" (which I should
have done when I opened it), to give a bit more visibility to your
patches.

Regards,
Valentin


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

2009/7/27 Graham Percival :
> I'm not at all certain that these arrows should be indicated with
> different pitch names -- why not define
>  \accidentalArrowsOn
>  \accidentalArrowsOff
> or some such commands, then use the regular pitch names?

I guess for the same reason why you don't want generic \sharpOn,
\sharpOff, \flatOn, \flatOff commands -- because arrowed accidentals
indicate a pitch different from the regular one and you would still
like to be able to easily use notes with arrowed accidentals along
notes with regular accidentals. But I'm not a user of microtonal music
at all, so let's wait for the experts to chime in.

> In addition, the default language in lilypond is Dutch, so I must
> insist that you add -is -es style pitch names (if there's a
> compelling reason to use separate pitch names).  The main
> documentation would also need to use those Dutch names.

OK, I'll see to providing these once we have an agreement what we really want.

Cheers,
Max


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Graham Percival]

I'm not at all certain that these arrows should be indicated with
different pitch names -- why not define
  \accidentalArrowsOn
  \accidentalArrowsOff
or some such commands, then use the regular pitch names?

In addition, the default language in lilypond is Dutch, so I must
insist that you add -is -es style pitch names (if there's a
compelling reason to use separate pitch names).  The main
documentation would also need to use those Dutch names.

Cheers,
- Graham

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 06:25:14PM +0900, Maximilian Albert wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I just rediscovered this old thread during some recent work and
> realized that there are still some pending updates for the docs
> concerning microtonal notation. This has got buried for more than half
> a year (presumably because it was Christmas time when I sent my last
> email), but I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at it and let
> me know if it's OK to apply or what should be changed. For details
> about the discussion at the time, see
> 
>http://www.mail-archive.com/lilypond-devel@gnu.org/msg19087.html
> 
> and the replies in that thread. Attached are the patches again
> (updated to reflect the rearranged docs structure).
> 
> Thanks,
> Max
> 



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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

Hi all,

I just rediscovered this old thread during some recent work and
realized that there are still some pending updates for the docs
concerning microtonal notation. This has got buried for more than half
a year (presumably because it was Christmas time when I sent my last
email), but I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at it and let
me know if it's OK to apply or what should be changed. For details
about the discussion at the time, see

   http://www.mail-archive.com/lilypond-devel@gnu.org/msg19087.html

and the replies in that thread. Attached are the patches again
(updated to reflect the rearranged docs structure).

Thanks,
Max

2008/12/21 Maximilian Albert :
> Hi again,
>
> here is some documentation for the arrowed accidentals. Since I found
> it the most natural way of typesetting, it uses Trevor's notation for
> up and down arrows (but also mentions the alternative ways discussed
> before). Please let me know if for some reason Trevor's default names
> are not desired so that I can rewrite the docs accordingly. Note that
> the attached patches supersede the one in my last email.
>
> Cheers and merry christmas to everyone!
> Max
>
From 0e521721ec3244bfc994f73d68440b1e4f066458 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Maximilian Albert 
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:34:11 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] New alterations for microtones and default names for notes with arrowed accidentals in english.ly

---
 ly/english.ly|   59 ++
 scm/lily-library.scm |5 
 scm/output-lib.scm   |5 
 3 files changed, 69 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)

diff --git a/ly/english.ly b/ly/english.ly
index fec9b11..1b92d55 100644
--- a/ly/english.ly
+++ b/ly/english.ly
@@ -125,6 +125,65 @@ pitchnamesEnglish = #`(
 	(btqs . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 THREE-Q-SHARP))
 	(bss . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 DOUBLE-SHARP))
 	(bx . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 DOUBLE-SHARP))
+
+	;; arrowed accidentals
+	(cflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(cflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(csharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(csharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(dflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(dflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(dsharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(dsharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(eflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(eflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(esharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(esharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(fflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(fflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(fsharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(fsharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(gflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(gflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(gsharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(gsharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(aflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(aflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(asharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(asharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(bflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(bflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(bsharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(bsharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+
+	(csu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(csd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(cfu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(cfd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(dsu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(dsd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(dfu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(dfd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(esu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(esd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(efu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(efd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(fsu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(fsd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(ffu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(ffd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(gsu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(gsd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(gfu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(gfd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(asu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(asd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(afu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(afd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(bsu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(bsd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(bfu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(bfd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
 )
 
 pitchnames = \pitchnamesEnglish
diff --git a/scm/lily-library.scm b/scm/lily-library.scm
index d1cce2a..22d1123 100644
--- a/scm/lily-library.scm
+++ b/scm/lily-library.scm
@@ -44,6 +44,11 @@
 (define-safe-public DOUBLE-SHARP 1)
 (defin

Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> here is some documentation for the arrowed accidentals.  Since I
> found it the most natural way of typesetting, it uses Trevor's
> notation for up and down arrows (but also mentions the alternative
> ways discussed before).  Please let me know if for some reason
> Trevor's default names are not desired so that I can rewrite the
> docs accordingly.  Note that the attached patches supersede the one
> in my last email.

I'm not going to apply this -- doc guys, please approve and apply if
you think everything is fine.  Main reason is that I have no opinion
w.r.t. the pitch names of notes with arrowed accidentals.

BTW, what's the difference between a sharp accidental with three
horizontal bars and a sharp accidental with an up arrow?


Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

Hi again,

here is some documentation for the arrowed accidentals. Since I found
it the most natural way of typesetting, it uses Trevor's notation for
up and down arrows (but also mentions the alternative ways discussed
before). Please let me know if for some reason Trevor's default names
are not desired so that I can rewrite the docs accordingly. Note that
the attached patches supersede the one in my last email.

Cheers and merry christmas to everyone!
Max
From a54922b8d12e3c30b2f0053068f68b14e5efa940 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Maximilian Albert 
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:34:11 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] New alterations for microtones and default names for notes with arrowed accidentals in english.ly

---
 ly/english.ly|   59 ++
 scm/lily-library.scm |5 
 scm/output-lib.scm   |5 
 3 files changed, 69 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)

diff --git a/ly/english.ly b/ly/english.ly
index 4f7983c..bb185fb 100644
--- a/ly/english.ly
+++ b/ly/english.ly
@@ -125,6 +125,65 @@ pitchnamesEnglish = #`(
 	(btqs . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 THREE-Q-SHARP))
 	(bss . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 DOUBLE-SHARP))
 	(bx . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 DOUBLE-SHARP))
+
+	;; arrowed accidentals
+	(cflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(cflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(csharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(csharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(dflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(dflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(dsharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(dsharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(eflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(eflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(esharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(esharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(fflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(fflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(fsharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(fsharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(gflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(gflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(gsharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(gsharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(aflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(aflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(asharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(asharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(bflatdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(bflatup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(bsharpdown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(bsharpup . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+
+	(csu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(csd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(cfu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(cfd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(dsu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(dsd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(dfu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(dfd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(esu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(esd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(efu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(efd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(fsu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(fsd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(ffu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(ffd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(gsu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(gsd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(gfu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(gfd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(asu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(asd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(afu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(afd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(bsu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP-MICRO-UP))
+	(bsd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP-MICRO-DOWN))
+	(bfu . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT-MICRO-UP))
+	(bfd . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT-MICRO-DOWN))
 )
 
 pitchnames = \pitchnamesEnglish
diff --git a/scm/lily-library.scm b/scm/lily-library.scm
index 8176db1..7ebf478 100644
--- a/scm/lily-library.scm
+++ b/scm/lily-library.scm
@@ -41,6 +41,11 @@
 (define-safe-public DOUBLE-SHARP 1)
 (define-safe-public SEMI-TONE 1/2)
 
+(define-safe-public SHARP-MICRO-DOWN 499/1000)
+(define-safe-public SHARP-MICRO-UP 501/1000)
+(define-safe-public FLAT-MICRO-UP -499/1000)
+(define-safe-public FLAT-MICRO-DOWN -501/1000)
+
 
 ;; moments
 
diff --git a/scm/output-lib.scm b/scm/output-lib.scm
index 6a54777..a91453a 100644
--- a/scm/output-lib.scm
+++ b/scm/output-lib.scm
@@ -391,6 +391,11 @@ centered, X==1 is at the right, X == -1 is at the left."
(1/4 . "accidentals.sharp.slashslash.stem")
(-1/4 . "accidentals.mirroredflat")
(-3/4 . "accidentals.mirroredflat.flat")
+
+   (499/1000 . "accidentals.sharp.arrowd

Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

Hi Trevor,

thanks for the suggestion. Here is a patch to implement this (it
simply defines new alterations of +/- 499/1000 and +/- 501/1000, which
I assume are unlikely to be used for anything else). I don't know if
the patch is likely to get officially accepted, but at least it should
give you or others who build from git a way to easily use the
accidentals in the way you described. If it makes it into the official
repository, I can of course update the example in NEWS.tely to reflect
the new syntax. If anyone wants to provide similar names for other
languages, they just need to imitate the changes in english.ly.

Cheers,
Max

P.S.: Is there something wrong with the git repository? Each time I
want to pull I get the following error message:

git.sv.gnu.org[0: 199.232.41.69]: errno=Connection timed out
fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection timed out)


0001-New-alterations-for-microtones-and-default-names-for.patch
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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Trevor Bača]

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Maximilian Albert <
maximilian.alb...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> 2008/12/14 Werner LEMBERG :
> >
> >> Can we please make sure to include at least one example of input
> >> syntax in the newsfile?
> >
> > Well, it's Maximilian's turn...
>
> Yup, sorry. During the last couple of days I didn't have access to the
> computer I presently work on (and won't have for another few days),
> whence the delay in my response. Werner, thanks a lot for applying and
> cleaning up the patches! I should have taken care of using the right
> the coding style in the first place.
>
> As for the input syntax, that's a good point anyway. So far I only
> used the arrowed accidentals by tweaking the maqam example and
> defining separate names for all combinations of notes with all kinds
> of arrowed accidentals (see the attached file micro1.ly). The drawback
> is that the microtonal notes are associated with a certain pitch and
> that one has to add a huge list of note name definitions at the
> beginning of the file. One could also redefine the +/- 1/4 and +/- 3/4
> alterations to use the arrowed accidentals, as in the attached file
> micro2.ly. The drawback ist that one cannot use the "regular"
> quartertone accidentals any more since they are overridden by the new
> definition (and microtones are still attached to a specific pitch).
>
> Do you think we should provide "standard" names for all the notes with
> microtonal alterations? These would have to be localized, right?
> (which I don't know how to do properly since I'm not familiar with the
> naming conventions in other languages.) Or should we require the user
> to make his own definitions each time (s)he wants to use these
> accidentals? Which of these methods should be included in the news
> file as an example for the recommended syntax?


Hey Max,

I can't speak to any other language besides English, but for English I might
suggest the following (pasted out of one of my earlier mail):


%%% ARROWED-ACCIDENTAL SUGGESTION FOR ENGLISH %%%

OK, ideally I'd like something like this added to english.ly:

  cs'16  % normal C-sharp
  csu'16 % C-sharp with up-arrow
  csd'16 % C-sharp with down-arrow

  bf'16 % normal B-flat
  bfu'16 % B-flat with up-arrow
  bfd'16 % B-flat with down-arrow

and also ...

 cqs'16 % normal (ie, exact) C-quartersharp
 cqsu'16 % C-quartersharp with up-arrow
 cqsd'16 % C-quatersharp with down-arrow

etc.

That's how I would, ideally, like to access the arrowed accidentals. Would
be very slick, indeed. Just a -d (for 'down') or -u (for 'up') appended to
the complete set of all existing accidental input names.

%%% END %%%


Of course, I'm also OK with defining my own commands for getting to the
arrowed accidentals, as you and Werner are discussing, so long as there's an
example of how to set up the definition.

Very cool, btw!


Trevor.


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Or should we require the user to make his own definitions each time
> (s)he wants to use these accidentals?  Which of these methods should
> be included in the news file as an example for the recommended
> syntax?

I'm in favour of this solution, at least temporarily.  Given that 2.12
is coming soon, arrowed accidentals should be documented somehow,
together how a user can get them.


Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

2008/12/14 Werner LEMBERG :
>
>> Can we please make sure to include at least one example of input
>> syntax in the newsfile?
>
> Well, it's Maximilian's turn...

Yup, sorry. During the last couple of days I didn't have access to the
computer I presently work on (and won't have for another few days),
whence the delay in my response. Werner, thanks a lot for applying and
cleaning up the patches! I should have taken care of using the right
the coding style in the first place.

As for the input syntax, that's a good point anyway. So far I only
used the arrowed accidentals by tweaking the maqam example and
defining separate names for all combinations of notes with all kinds
of arrowed accidentals (see the attached file micro1.ly). The drawback
is that the microtonal notes are associated with a certain pitch and
that one has to add a huge list of note name definitions at the
beginning of the file. One could also redefine the +/- 1/4 and +/- 3/4
alterations to use the arrowed accidentals, as in the attached file
micro2.ly. The drawback ist that one cannot use the "regular"
quartertone accidentals any more since they are overridden by the new
definition (and microtones are still attached to a specific pitch).

Do you think we should provide "standard" names for all the notes with
microtonal alterations? These would have to be localized, right?
(which I don't know how to do properly since I'm not familiar with the
naming conventions in other languages.) Or should we require the user
to make his own definitions each time (s)he wants to use these
accidentals? Which of these methods should be included in the news
file as an example for the recommended syntax?

Max


micro1.ly
Description: Binary data


micro2.ly
Description: Binary data
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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Can we please make sure to include at least one example of input
> syntax in the newsfile?

Well, it's Maximilian's turn...


Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Trevor Bača]

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:

>
> > Please let further suggestions be coming. :-)
>
> No further suggestions.  I've applied it to the git.  Thanks!  Please
> provide proper entries for NEWS.tely and other documentation files,
> together with a regression test (or extending an existing one).


Outstanding!

Can we please make sure to include at least one example of input syntax in
the newsfile?




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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Please let further suggestions be coming. :-)

No further suggestions.  I've applied it to the git.  Thanks!  Please
provide proper entries for NEWS.tely and other documentation files,
together with a regression test (or extending an existing one).


Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

Hi Werner,

> Hehe, still not perfect. Sorry for being such a PITA :-)

If you weren't, I'd ask you to be. ;-) Lilypond wouldn't be what it is
if it weren't for people like Han-Wen, you and the other developers
who aim for the highest possible quality standards. Vice versa I
apologize for giving you so much opportunity to discover bugs and
buglets. ;-)

> The `natural.arrowdown' glyph correctly extends the
> vertical bar outlines into exactly the same direction, while the
> `natural.arrowboth' extends the stem into a slightly different
> direction, which is not correct.

I noticed this, too, but I thought it was due to rounding errors
caused by metafont since I passed exactly the same direction as an
argument for both glyphs. I now made a correction which I hope fixes
this issue but please double check to be sure.

> Additionally, the upper left point of the lower horizontal bar `jumps'
> if compared between natural glyphs with and without an up-arrow. The
> same is true for the lower right point of the upper horizontal bar for
> glyphs with and without a down-arrow.

This is fixed in the attached revised version of the patches.
Please let further suggestions be coming. :-)

Thanks and best regards,
Max


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Trevor Bača]

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Werner LEMBERG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > > Still a buglet: The stemwidth of the down arrow in the
> > > `natural.arrowboth' glyph is too thick if compared to the other
> > > arrowed natural signs.  Everything else looks fine.
> >
> > Finally one with an instantaneous fix. :-) Indeed I used to check
> > for up- XOR down-arrow before I added the accidentals with arrows in
> > both direction. The attached version of the patches corrects this.
>
> Hehe, it's still not perfect.  Sorry for being a PITA :-)  Compile
> with
>
>  FONTFORGE=foo mf2pt1 --rounding=0.0001 feta20
>
> and magnify into the connection point between the down-arrow and the
> vertical bar: The `natural.arrowdown' glyph correctly extends the
> vertical bar outlines into exactly the same direction, while the
> `natural.arrowboth' extends the stem into a slightly different
> direction, which is not correct.
>
> Additionally, the upper left point of the lower horizontal bar `jumps'
> if compared between natural glyphs with and without an up-arrow.  The
> same is true for the lower right point of the upper horizontal bar for
> glyphs with and without a down-arrow.
>  
> 
>

(Thank you guys both for the continued tweaks to the arrowed accidentals!)


Trevor.




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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> > Still a buglet: The stemwidth of the down arrow in the
> > `natural.arrowboth' glyph is too thick if compared to the other
> > arrowed natural signs.  Everything else looks fine.
> 
> Finally one with an instantaneous fix. :-) Indeed I used to check
> for up- XOR down-arrow before I added the accidentals with arrows in
> both direction. The attached version of the patches corrects this.

Hehe, it's still not perfect.  Sorry for being a PITA :-)  Compile
with

  FONTFORGE=foo mf2pt1 --rounding=0.0001 feta20

and magnify into the connection point between the down-arrow and the
vertical bar: The `natural.arrowdown' glyph correctly extends the
vertical bar outlines into exactly the same direction, while the
`natural.arrowboth' extends the stem into a slightly different
direction, which is not correct.

Additionally, the upper left point of the lower horizontal bar `jumps'
if compared between natural glyphs with and without an up-arrow.  The
same is true for the lower right point of the upper horizontal bar for
glyphs with and without a down-arrow.


Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

2008/12/9 Werner LEMBERG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> [...] I managed to find a workaround and hope that the attached
>> patches finally fix all the issues.
>
> Still a buglet: The stemwidth of the down arrow in the
> `natural.arrowboth' glyph is too thick if compared to the other
> arrowed natural signs.  Everything else looks fine.

Finally one with an instantaneous fix. :-) Indeed I used to check for
up- XOR down-arrow before I added the accidentals with arrows in both
direction. The attached version of the patches corrects this.

BTW, your hint about quick font creation and especially using
Ctrl+brackets to switch between consecutive glyphs in fontforge was
priceless. Thanks for that and for continuing support and detailed
investigations!

Max


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Hey Max, hey Werner,
> 
> Any news on the arrowed accidentals? Would be very cool indeed if
> they could make it into 2.12!

Will check the code today.  If everything's fine, I'll commit it.


Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Trevor Bača]

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Werner LEMBERG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> > However, I'm unable to compare the new accidentals side by side as
> > in your images because I can only investigate them in the dvi file
> > which is output by metafont.  How do you produce these images? Are
> > they just screenshots from fontforge or is it possible to export
> > these kinds of pictures somehow?  Also, how can I avoid recompiling
> > all fonts after making changes (which takes ages)?
>
> I think I told you already in a previous mail:
>
>  . Copy all MF files and mf2pt1.mp to a new directory.
>
>  . Copy mf2pt1.pl to the same directory.
>
>  . Generate mf2pt1.mem with
>
>  mpost -progname=mpost -ini mf2pt1 \\dump
>
> That's it.
>
> To create a DVI file for feta20, say
>
>  mf '\mode:=proof; input feta20'
>  gftodvi feta20.2602gf
>
> To create an unhinted PFB with overlapping contours and a lot of extra
> points for feta20, say
>
>  FONTFORGE=foo perl mf2pt1.pl --rounding=0.0001 feta20
>
> To create a hinted, optimized PFB for feta20, say
>
>  perl mf2pt1.pl --rounding=0.0001 feta20


Hey Max, hey Werner,

Any news on the arrowed accidentals? Would be very cool indeed if they could
make it into 2.12!

:-)

Trevor.





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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> However, I'm unable to compare the new accidentals side by side as
> in your images because I can only investigate them in the dvi file
> which is output by metafont.  How do you produce these images? Are
> they just screenshots from fontforge or is it possible to export
> these kinds of pictures somehow?  Also, how can I avoid recompiling
> all fonts after making changes (which takes ages)?

I think I told you already in a previous mail:

  . Copy all MF files and mf2pt1.mp to a new directory.

  . Copy mf2pt1.pl to the same directory.

  . Generate mf2pt1.mem with

  mpost -progname=mpost -ini mf2pt1 \\dump

That's it.

To create a DVI file for feta20, say

  mf '\mode:=proof; input feta20'
  gftodvi feta20.2602gf

To create an unhinted PFB with overlapping contours and a lot of extra
points for feta20, say

  FONTFORGE=foo perl mf2pt1.pl --rounding=0.0001 feta20

To create a hinted, optimized PFB for feta20, say

  perl mf2pt1.pl --rounding=0.0001 feta20


 Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

2008/12/2 Werner LEMBERG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Sorry for the late reply.

No worries. Thanks for taking a look!

> Is there any reason that inner part of flat.arrowup and friends has a
> different shape compared to a normal flat?  See attached images --
> this looks like a buglet in your code.  Besides that, everything looks
> nice.

You are right. It's caused by side effects of my changes in parts of
the code which I didn't touch. Namely, upon taking a closer look I
noticed that the reference points z3l, z3r, z10 depend on the position
of z1r, which controls the thickness of the top end of the stem. For
the arrowed accidentals I had to reduce this thickness a little to
make them look nicer, but that had the unintended side effect of
changing the inner part, too.

It should be easy to fix but I'd like to investigate the effects of
the fix somewhat more thoroughly and fiddle a bit more with the
parameter to find an optimal value before resending the patch.
However, I'm unable to compare the new accidentals side by side as in
your images because I can only investigate them in the dvi file which
is output by metafont. How do you produce these images? Are they just
screenshots from fontforge or is it possible to export these kinds of
pictures somehow? Also, how can I avoid recompiling all fonts after
making changes (which takes ages)?

Max


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> The reworked patches for the new arrowed accidentals are attached
> (I'm also attaching metafont's dvi output for inspection).

Sorry for the late reply.

> Does this fix all the issues?  Any further comments?

Is there any reason that inner part of flat.arrowup and friends has a
different shape compared to a normal flat?  See attached images --
this looks like a buglet in your code.  Besides that, everything looks
nice.


Werner
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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> sorry if you receive this email twice but I got an error
> notification and suspect that it was due to the size of the attached
> files. Here is a second attempt (original message follows below).

I got it, and I'll check it as soon as time permits.


Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

Hi,

this is my third attempt to send this email. It seems to have been
rejected twice due to size and sending it from the wrong account
(things get complicated when you can't use the computer/setup you're
used to). I hope it finally gets through this time; sorry if you
received it multiple times anyway. The original message follows below.

Cheers,
Max

===

2008/11/9 Maximilian Albert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Hi all,

after my laptop crash and endless attempts ( though unsuccessful ones,
unfortunately) to set up a development environment on one of the
university computers, I was finally able to borrow a friend's laptop,
copy over the files from my old hard drive and set up a git repository
to work on the changes Werner suggested. I am truly sorry that it took
me again so long to make this work (but even accessing to the old
files wasn't as easy as I had hoped).

The reworked patches for the new arrowed accidentals are attached (I'm
also attaching metafont's dvi output for inspection). Does this fix
all the issues? Any further comments?

Thanks again for your help and suggestions,
Max


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Graham Breed]

On Sat, 2008-10-25 at 18:41 -0400, Trevor Bača wrote:
> 2008/10/24 Valentin Villenave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 2008/10/24 Trevor Bača <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > If we're keeping track (informally) of user requests for
> certain features,
> > you can add my name to the list of users who'll make good
> use of arrowed
> > accidentals.
> 
Are you keeping track?  I could use arrowed accidentals, especially if
there's no alternative for the small intervals.

> So, this side of the question remains: how would *you* be able
> to use
> microtones, without typing lines of Scheme code? Do you have
> any
> concept in mind (code-wise)?
> 
I'd have thought

- copy the file arrows-init.ly with a name that suits you
- edit the file and change

#(define-public ARROW 1/12)

  to your preferred tone division.

- tell Lilypond to use the new file with pieces that require this
tuning.

There's a more general problem for more general tone systems that isn't
solved for printing either.  Supplying a font and something like
makam-init.ly would work if we could work out how to support third-party
fonts (which I still haven't got round to).  That still leave complex JI
systems where you need more than one accidental glyph per note, or
open-ended systems where you can't list all possible notes.

> Good point.
> 
> OK, ideally I'd like something like this added to english.ly:
> 
>   cs'16  % normal C-sharp
>   csu'16 % C-sharp with up-arrow
>   csd'16 % C-sharp with down-arrow
> 
>   bf'16 % normal B-flat
>   bfu'16 % B-flat with up-arrow
>   bfd'16 % B-flat with down-arrow
> 
> and also ...
>   
>  cqs'16 % normal (ie, exact) C-quartersharp
>  cqsu'16 % C-quartersharp with up-arrow
>  cqsd'16 % C-quatersharp with down-arrow
> 
> etc.
> 
A sharp dividing into two quarters is a fait accompli, I take it?

Nice to see arrows with the half-sharps anyway.  Do they also work with
naturals?

> That's how I would, ideally, like to access the arrowed accidentals.
> Would be very slick, indeed. Just a -d (for 'down') or -u (for 'up')
> appended to the complete set of all existing accidental input names.
> 
Defining your own names isn't a big deal.

> Third-tones, sixth-tones, eighth-tones and the like are a different
> matter. There's no generally accepted set of glyphs for exact
> microtones other than quartertones (at least at the moment). And I
> think that fact -- which has to do with the current state of
> contemporary scores and contemporary notation (rather than with the
> state of LilyPond development) -- will make it difficult to decide
> what a LilyPond input scheme should look like for those values.
> 
But that's why third parties should be able to supply fonts and init
files.  There are fonts out there for 72-equal (12th tones, which you
get when you mix quartertones with third-tones).  Changing a list of
names in an init file isn't a daunting programming task.

> Oh, and two sidenotes:
> 
> 1. When I use arrowed accidentals in my own scores, I use them to mean
> "ever so slightly sharp (flat) of the specified pitch". That is, I use
> arrowed accidentals as *inexact* (and small) inflections of pitch.
> Other composers use arrowed accidentals differently (sometimes, for
> example, electing -- confusingly -- to use arrowed accidentals to
> represent *exact* quartertone values). But I think we can make a
> pretty good case that the growing consensus in contemporary scores is
> to use Lily's existing microtone glyphs for *exact* quartertone values
> (and to use arrowed accidentals as inexact inflections).
> 
I think I can make a good case for contemporary scores using *inexact*
quartertones.  I can dig out a reference if you like.

> 2. I don't personally care about the MIDI realization of arrowed
> accidentals. This falls out of #1, above, because I'm using the
> arrowed glyphs as inflectional values only.
> 
Would 12th tones be a good default?
> 
> Did that help answer the question, Valentin? I kinda feel like I may
> have missed the actual question. If so, please correct!

I've been following this from the gallery.  The patch is to add some
more glyphs to the standard font, which doesn't help my wider goals.
But I hope it gets accepted anyway.  Is it in?


   Graham




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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Trevor Bača]

2008/10/24 Valentin Villenave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> 2008/10/24 Trevor Bača <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > If we're keeping track (informally) of user requests for certain
> features,
> > you can add my name to the list of users who'll make good use of arrowed
> > accidentals.
>
> Yeah, I had the feeling you'd be interested :-)


:-)



>
>
> However, the other feature request I mentioned in the tracker (same
> link) was the support for non-quartertones micro-intervals. Han Wen
> made me realize this was already possible (and used in makam.ly for
> instance), but from a user's point of view, we have'nt convenient
> shortcuts/interface/implementation/whatever to specify, say a
> third-tone or a sixth-tone whenever you need it.
>
> So, this side of the question remains: how would *you* be able to use
> microtones, without typing lines of Scheme code? Do you have any
> concept in mind (code-wise)?
>

Good point.

OK, ideally I'd like something like this added to english.ly:

  cs'16  % normal C-sharp
  csu'16 % C-sharp with up-arrow
  csd'16 % C-sharp with down-arrow

  bf'16 % normal B-flat
  bfu'16 % B-flat with up-arrow
  bfd'16 % B-flat with down-arrow

and also ...

 cqs'16 % normal (ie, exact) C-quartersharp
 cqsu'16 % C-quartersharp with up-arrow
 cqsd'16 % C-quatersharp with down-arrow

etc.

That's how I would, ideally, like to access the arrowed accidentals. Would
be very slick, indeed. Just a -d (for 'down') or -u (for 'up') appended to
the complete set of all existing accidental input names.

Third-tones, sixth-tones, eighth-tones and the like are a different matter.
There's no generally accepted set of glyphs for exact microtones other than
quartertones (at least at the moment). And I think that fact -- which has to
do with the current state of contemporary scores and contemporary notation
(rather than with the state of LilyPond development) -- will make it
difficult to decide what a LilyPond input scheme should look like for those
values.

So I don't have any snappy ideas in mind for what input syntax for
sixth-tones and eighth-tones might look like. I'd just be thrilled if we
could get the arrowed accidentals in there using some input system like the
one above.

Oh, and two sidenotes:

1. When I use arrowed accidentals in my own scores, I use them to mean "ever
so slightly sharp (flat) of the specified pitch". That is, I use arrowed
accidentals as *inexact* (and small) inflections of pitch. Other composers
use arrowed accidentals differently (sometimes, for example, electing --
confusingly -- to use arrowed accidentals to represent *exact* quartertone
values). But I think we can make a pretty good case that the growing
consensus in contemporary scores is to use Lily's existing microtone glyphs
for *exact* quartertone values (and to use arrowed accidentals as inexact
inflections).

2. I don't personally care about the MIDI realization of arrowed
accidentals. This falls out of #1, above, because I'm using the arrowed
glyphs as inflectional values only.


Did that help answer the question, Valentin? I kinda feel like I may have
missed the actual question. If so, please correct!

Trevor.



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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Valentin Villenave]

2008/10/24 Trevor Bača <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> If we're keeping track (informally) of user requests for certain features,
> you can add my name to the list of users who'll make good use of arrowed
> accidentals.

Yeah, I had the feeling you'd be interested :-)

However, the other feature request I mentioned in the tracker (same
link) was the support for non-quartertones micro-intervals. Han Wen
made me realize this was already possible (and used in makam.ly for
instance), but from a user's point of view, we have'nt convenient
shortcuts/interface/implementation/whatever to specify, say a
third-tone or a sixth-tone whenever you need it.

So, this side of the question remains: how would *you* be able to use
microtones, without typing lines of Scheme code? Do you have any
concept in mind (code-wise)?

Cheers,
Valentin
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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Trevor Bača]

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Valentin Villenave
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> 2008/9/12 Maximilian Albert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > My last post was concerning a possible contribution, namely arrowed
> > microtonal accidentals, which have been requested on this list quite a
> few
> > times.
>
> Hi Maximilian, nice to see you again :-)
>
> I do believe this feature is wanted by many LilyPonders (just received
> another request on the French list right now).
> I am impressed to see how many times this idea has been raised and
> given up over the past years, so I have now opened an Enchancement
> Request in our tracker to make sure it will not get forgotten:
> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=694
>
>
Hi Max,

Great to see you back on the list!


Hi Valentin,

If we're keeping track (informally) of user requests for certain features,
you can add my name to the list of users who'll make good use of arrowed
accidentals.

Trevor.





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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Valentin Villenave]

2008/9/12 Maximilian Albert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> My last post was concerning a possible contribution, namely arrowed
> microtonal accidentals, which have been requested on this list quite a few
> times.

Hi Maximilian, nice to see you again :-)

I do believe this feature is wanted by many LilyPonders (just received
another request on the French list right now).
I am impressed to see how many times this idea has been raised and
given up over the past years, so I have now opened an Enchancement
Request in our tracker to make sure it will not get forgotten:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=694

Cheers,
Valentin


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

Sorry for the late reply.

> How can I widen only the charbox without affecting the shape's
> width?

You must probably rewrite the code to not directly use `w', `d', and
`h'.

> >   . The height and depth of all arrowed characters is a bit too
> > large.  Why?
> 
> What do you mean by "too large"? (I.e., with respect to what?)

Ideally, width, height, and depth values are as tight as possible.

> Are the heights of arrowed acidentals different from the regular
> ones?

Yes, if I remember correctly.

> more importantly, would these accidentals have a chance of being
> approved for the new version?

I don't see a problem to include them since it is a non-invasive
change, just adding stuff.  Consequently, the danger to break
something is very small IMHO (if at all).


Werner


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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Maximilian Albert]

Hi Werner,

first of all my apologies for having let you wait another week. I was on a 
maths conference first, then in the Netherland for a choir competition, and 
unexpectedly I didn't have internet access during any of both events. What's 
worse, my laptop just decided to stop working (don't know how severe a problem 
it is and how long it will take to fix) so I currently can't access my local 
repositories to test any further changes to my patches. :-(


> This looks very nice!

Thanks!


>   . With patch #6, you are widening the shape of a sharp if you either
> attach an up arrow or two arrows, but you don't do that for a down
> arrow only.  This is a bad idea IMHO.  You should widen the
> charbox alone but not the shape.

Hmm, you are right. For whatever reason I visually inspected the wrong glyphs 
after applying the changes so I didn't notice the wider shapes. I thought that 
set_char_box only widened the charbox, not the shape, but apparently this is 
not so. How can I widen only the charbox without affecting the shape's width? 
Sorry if this is a dumb question but my last intensive metafont experience was 
a year ago. BTW, this problem may also be present in the other patches (e.g., 
from last time when my laptop worked I seem to remember that the sharp sign 
with up arrow looked wider than it should).


>   . For the natural with an arrow up, you also make the opposite,
> non-arrowed end smaller.  This is a bug, I think, since you don't
> do that for the natural with an arrow down.

This should be fixed in the attached corrected patch #4. Note again that due to 
the problems with my computer the patch is hand-edited and untested.

 
>   . The height and depth of all arrowed characters is a bit too
> large.  Why?

What do you mean by "too large"? (I.e., with respect to what?) Are the heights 
of arrowed acidentals different from the regular ones?


> After adding your (corrected) patches #1 to #5, maybe Joe or Neil can
> play with it, finding out why there are collisions.  Note that the
> current skyline algorithm always handles glyphs as rectangles.  We
> don't have a finer resolution (yet).
> 
> It would be good if you can provide ugly test cases.

OK, I will see to providing some when the work on the patches is done (and I 
have my laptop or at least another system up and running again).

Thanks very much for your review and comments,
Max

P.S.: Initially, I had hoped that the patches would still be in time for 2.12. 
But now, with my laptop not working, I don't know if I'll be able to do the 
necessary corrections before feature freeze (even though for once I'd have 
enough time during the next few weeks). What is the envisaged time scale for 
2.12? And more importantly, would these accidentals have a chance of being 
approved for the new version?

-- 
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0004-Add-arrowed-natural-signs.patch
Description: Binary data
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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Werner LEMBERG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> After adding your (corrected) patches #1 to #5, maybe Joe or Neil can
> play with it, finding out why there are collisions.  Note that the
> current skyline algorithm always handles glyphs as rectangles.  We
> don't have a finer resolution (yet).

Actually, there are some hard-coded hacks for accidental placements
that modify the shape of natural and flat symbols, to enable tighter
placements.

-- 
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Re: PATCH: Arrowed accidentals for microtone notation

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Anyway, here finally is a series of patches implementing these
> accidentals.

This looks very nice!

> Anyone up for a review?

Here my comments, after applying all six patches locally.

  . With patch #6, you are widening the shape of a sharp if you either
attach an up arrow or two arrows, but you don't do that for a down
arrow only.  This is a bad idea IMHO.  You should widen the
charbox alone but not the shape.

  . For the natural with an arrow up, you also make the opposite,
non-arrowed end smaller.  This is a bug, I think, since you don't
do that for the natural with an arrow down.

  . The height and depth of all arrowed characters is a bit too
large.  Why?

> P.S.: I took care to make the charboxes precisely enclose the glyphs
> (which metafont confirms).  However, the result looks rather
> clamped, and there are even occasional collisions with the
> arrowheads.  Is this a bug in lilypond's spacing algorithm?  I seem
> to remember that there have been problems with accidentals being
> placed too close to other symbols.  Could this be the same issue?
> If for some reason there really needs to be more space around the
> glyphs, you can also apply patch #6 (and tweak the numbers if you
> wish).

After adding your (corrected) patches #1 to #5, maybe Joe or Neil can
play with it, finding out why there are collisions.  Note that the
current skyline algorithm always handles glyphs as rectangles.  We
don't have a finer resolution (yet).

It would be good if you can provide ugly test cases.


Werner


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