Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Hans Åberg]

> On 5 Nov 2016, at 00:03, David Wright  wrote:

>>> Mairi's Wedding is completely regular; it has five 8-bar
>>> sections, which happens to sum to 40:
>> 
>> But they have to play it A B A B B, where each letter is a 8-bar section.
> 
> For that original tune, that's the usual sequence. But why "But"?
> Lots of tunes are expanded by repeating an 8-bar phrase if they're
> shorter than the dance demands. The dancers couldn't care less so
> long as the music changes after the correct number of bars.
> The next tune (you need several if you're not going to bore people
> with eight times through) might be a tune that has a different
> length and structure. Then there are loads of 48-bar and 64-bar
> dances. None of this variation makes a dance irregular.
> 
> There's a useful introduction at
> http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/Scotland/PlayingForSCD.html

It is an irregularity that has to be compensated for, as this your link. Tunes 
with sections not a power of two occurs in Swedish folk music, for example this 
polska after Höök Olle (in 3/4).
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGWpQVvjBrU



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Fri 04 Nov 2016 at 21:09:20 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
> > On 4 Nov 2016, at 20:31, David Wright  wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri 04 Nov 2016 at 10:55:45 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> >> On 4 Nov 2016, at 03:21, David Wright  wrote:
> > 
> > (in a different timezone)
> > 
> >>> My own experience of dancing is mainly
> >>> in the Scottish Country Dancing tradition, where such rhythmic
> >>> irregularities would be of no help at all. In a tradition where
> >>> 8-bar phrases rule, a dance like The Wee Cooper of Fife is highly
> >>> irregular, having four 10-bar phrases.
> >> 
> >> I have encountered Mairi's Wedding, 8x40 reel:
> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairi%27s_Wedding
> > 
> > Mairi's Wedding is completely regular; it has five 8-bar
> > sections, which happens to sum to 40:
> 
> But they have to play it A B A B B, where each letter is a 8-bar section.

For that original tune, that's the usual sequence. But why "But"?
Lots of tunes are expanded by repeating an 8-bar phrase if they're
shorter than the dance demands. The dancers couldn't care less so
long as the music changes after the correct number of bars.
The next tune (you need several if you're not going to bore people
with eight times through) might be a tune that has a different
length and structure. Then there are loads of 48-bar and 64-bar
dances. None of this variation makes a dance irregular.

There's a useful introduction at
http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/Scotland/PlayingForSCD.html

Cheers,
David.

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Hans Åberg]

> On 4 Nov 2016, at 20:31, David Wright  wrote:
> 
> On Fri 04 Nov 2016 at 10:55:45 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
>> On 4 Nov 2016, at 03:21, David Wright  wrote:
> 
> (in a different timezone)
> 
>>> My own experience of dancing is mainly
>>> in the Scottish Country Dancing tradition, where such rhythmic
>>> irregularities would be of no help at all. In a tradition where
>>> 8-bar phrases rule, a dance like The Wee Cooper of Fife is highly
>>> irregular, having four 10-bar phrases.
>> 
>> I have encountered Mairi's Wedding, 8x40 reel:
>>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairi%27s_Wedding
> 
> Mairi's Wedding is completely regular; it has five 8-bar
> sections, which happens to sum to 40:

But they have to play it A B A B B, where each letter is a 8-bar section.

>>> No, in the sense that the OP didn't ask for any subdivisions so none
>>> were given in my response, see
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00074.html
>> 
>> But there is no tempo given, and how strong is the accent of the 1 relative 
>> that of the 3 before it?
> 
> Impossible for me to say.

Good to know if one performs it.



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Fri 04 Nov 2016 at 10:55:45 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> On 4 Nov 2016, at 03:21, David Wright  wrote:

(in a different timezone)

> > My own experience of dancing is mainly
> > in the Scottish Country Dancing tradition, where such rhythmic
> > irregularities would be of no help at all. In a tradition where
> > 8-bar phrases rule, a dance like The Wee Cooper of Fife is highly
> > irregular, having four 10-bar phrases.
> 
> I have encountered Mairi's Wedding, 8x40 reel:
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairi%27s_Wedding

Mairi's Wedding is completely regular; it has five 8-bar
sections, which happens to sum to 40:

. Turn R and cast, turn L;
. ½reel of 4 with 1st corners, then with 2nd;
. then 3rd, then 4th;
. Reels of 3 across;
. 6-hands round and back.

OTOH Foss had to add an extra bit to each normal 8-bar figure to use
up the extra two bars in the tune of The Wee Cooper of Fife (8x40 jig).
This is most obvious in bars 11–20. Rights and lefts (cross R, cross L,
cross R, cross L) takes eight bars; in this dance you cross R an
extra time.

(BTW the 8x has nothing to do with this; it just indicates that each
couple in the 4-couple set will dance the dance in top place, then
"repeat, having passed a couple" in standard parlance, ie start again
in second place.)

[snip]
> > No, in the sense that the OP didn't ask for any subdivisions so none
> > were given in my response, see
> > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00074.html
> 
> But there is no tempo given, and how strong is the accent of the 1 relative 
> that of the 3 before it?

Impossible for me to say.

Cheers,
David.


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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Hans Åberg]

> On 4 Nov 2016, at 03:21, David Wright  wrote:
> 
> On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 22:08:02 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3 Nov 2016, at 21:28, David Wright  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 10:37:36 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
 
> On 3 Nov 2016, at 03:04, David Wright  wrote:
> 
>>> The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8.
>> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not familiar with these dances), but
> these are just groupings of steady 16th notes, are they not.
 
 Yes, in the definition of the meter, in respons to your question whether 
 it might be performable. 13/8 and even 13/16 is performable at moderato 
 counting on the 1/4s, though I have no example of the 3+3+3+3+1 occurring 
 naturally.
>>> 
>>> But the three notes I referred to weren't in 13/8 or 13/16 because the
>>> last 3 of 3+3+3+3+1 (in 13/8 time) was a made into a duplet.
>> 
>> It was in response to your comment on 13/8 above.
> 
> Oh, OK. Well, I'm not familiar with music in these folk-dancing
> traditions, and don't particularly find it easy to pick up on
> the patterns involved.

Just drop a note if you want some examples. :-)

> My own experience of dancing is mainly
> in the Scottish Country Dancing tradition, where such rhythmic
> irregularities would be of no help at all. In a tradition where
> 8-bar phrases rule, a dance like The Wee Cooper of Fife is highly
> irregular, having four 10-bar phrases.

I have encountered Mairi's Wedding, 8x40 reel:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairi%27s_Wedding

Another type of irregularity occurs in "Adiós pueblo de Ayacucho" from Peru, 
which is notated in alternating 2/8 ad 4/8. The meters of the measures are
  ||: 2 | 4 | 4 | 2  |  2 | 4 | 4 | 4 :||

>> In the Leventikos 12/8, 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, the 3s have duplets metric accents.

>>> What I was pointing out was that we have 13/8 consisting of three
>>> dotted crochets followed by a duplet (two in the time of a dotted
>>> crochet) followed by a quaver. The relationship of these notes is
>>> 6 6 6 3 3 2 and I think most people would struggle with getting
>>> that last note exactly the correct length.
>> 
>> In irregular meters, the opposite happens: one looses the feeling for exact 
>> proportions. So one has to unlearn the idea of exact beats. If you want 
>> exact beats, then you need a sequencer track.
> 
> If you say so.

The Leventikos in 12 typically has very heavy time bends. If you do not follow 
that when playing along, you get out of sync a bit.

>> I am not sure exactly what meter you want, but if the proportions are 
>> 3+3+3+3+1, then it will likely feel like a common 9 = 2+2+2+3 with a slight 
>> time bend shortening the last beat a bit, which is normally done.
> 
> I don't want any meter. All I wanted to do was answer the question
> posed by the OP, but using conventional notation (which, it appears,
> is sufficient) rather than the rather unconventional approach IMO
> posted by Joram.

One can probably find a conventional notation approximation within the time 
bends that occur naturally. If one want a more exact representation, syncing 
tracks would be needed, I think. Another reason for writing a complex time 
signature is to make sure performers don't try to play it exactly.

>> So what are your intended metric accents? If the 1/3 at the end is 
>> subordinate to the i/4, then your meter will sound just like a 9/8 with a 
>> slight time bend, unless lsowed down to a zeibekiko.
> 
> *I* don't have any.

Sorry for that.

> But the OP had 4/4 plus this odd short note, so I
> assumed that they want four beats and a "kick" as I have called it.
> That's why four dotted crochets and a quaver match the OP's request
> IMO.

And we do not know the intended tempo. If it is reasonably high, it will 
probably sound like a 9/8, 9 = 2+2+2+3, with a typical time bend shortening of 
the 3.

> *You* brought up the subject of dividing those dotted crochets,
> I believe, in
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00081.html

Hindemith, "Elementary Training", shows such examples how tuplets can be used 
to simplify notation. But that is the only point of it, from the musical point 
of view.

>>> There may be no choice to be made. Perhaps the OP wants four beats and
>>> a kick, and nothing more.
>> 
>> It is ambiguous, as it stands.
> 
> Yes, in the sense that the OP appeared to make a mistake in specifying
> the relative duration of the last note in the bar.

I have assumed that your interpretation is correct, equivalent to 13 = 
3+3+3+3+1.

> No, in the sense that the OP didn't ask for any subdivisions so none
> were given in my response, see
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00074.html

But there is no tempo given, and how strong is the accent of the 1 relative 
that of the 3 before it?



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 19:50:05 (-0700), mclaren wrote:
> Well, the 3's indicate 3:2 broken tuplets. There seems to be some controversy
> over whether Tobin Chodos really wanted a single 3:2 eighth note at the end
> of every measure. If he does, then the 3's are correct.

Well, I don't perform music like this, so I wouldn't know if there's a
precedent for this notation. I'm just a guy with the temerity to try
and answer the OP's question using conventional notation rather than
something that looks strange.

Where might I find a reference on notation of this sort? Is is on the
web or are there special books?

> If he doesn't, then
> the question was unclear and we're answering something that wasn't asked.

Well, most of us concluded that the OP probably knew what notes should
be contained in each bar better than the appropriate time signature,
looking at the question posed which is how to define the time signature.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Tobin Chodos]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the helpful info.  A teacher of mine called them
"interruplets" (interrupted tuplets).  I think the clearest solution for my
purposes is just:
\compoundMeter #'((3 4) (1 12)).  David's suggestion of 13/8 is workable
but leads to problems with the music in question.

I really enjoyed those Balkan dances!

Tobin



On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 7:50 PM, mclaren <metachroma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, the 3's indicate 3:2 broken tuplets. There seems to be some
> controversy
> over whether Tobin Chodos really wanted a single 3:2 eighth note at the end
> of every measure. If he does, then the 3's are correct. If he doesn't, then
> the question was unclear and we're answering something that wasn't asked.
>
>
>
> --
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> denominator-tp195829p196116.html
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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[mclaren]

Yes, I realized that. Thanks for the correction. 



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Fri 04 Nov 2016 at 02:44:56 (+0100), Urs Liska wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 04.11.2016 um 02:39 schrieb Urs Liska:
> >
> > Am 02.11.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Chris Yate:
> >> particularly as it utterly confuses those players that don't know how
> >> to parse it.
> > Any musical notation utterly confuses those players that don't know how
> > to parse it. Actually you could extend that to written text as well.

But even those who can parse it can also be confused, just not utterly¹.
For example, I would say that the top line² is confusing and the
bottom one isn't, in the example I posted earlier. But somebody liked it.

> To clarify, this wasn't meant as a joke. On the one hand those musicians
> who will be able to perform this kind of music won't have an issue
> reading it.

Well, they might have had an issue on the first occasion that they met
some instance of unconventional notation. They work through it, then
it becomes second nature. Call it learning, training...

> On the other hand there *are* many people arguing that music
> notation is way too complex to learn but who claim to express themselves
> musically anyway.

That's too vague for me to understand the point you're trying to make there.

¹ Disclaimer: I have no idea what was being discussed on facebook.
² which I wasn't happy with until I changed "3" to "1:⅔".

Cheers,
David.


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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[mclaren]

LOL!  Well said, Urs.

As a practical matter, the musicians who perform Michael Gordon's broken
tuplets don't seem confused by the  notation. You can examples of this in
"Four Kings Fight Five," "Yo, Shakespeare!" and many other pieces by Gordon.



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[mclaren]

Well, the 3's indicate 3:2 broken tuplets. There seems to be some controversy
over whether Tobin Chodos really wanted a single 3:2 eighth note at the end
of every measure. If he does, then the 3's are correct. If he doesn't, then
the question was unclear and we're answering something that wasn't asked.



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[mclaren]

David remarked: 
>"One triplet eighth note" defines a duration of time (which the OP 
> appeared to get wrong in any case). One note cannot form a triplet. 

Sure it can. They're called broken tuplets, and lots of composers use 'em.
Michael Gordon uses broken tuplets all the time. So does Mikel Rouse, Kyle
Gann, and many others.

Single notes can be tuplets of any kind, 4:3, 11:9, 23:17, or whatever. This
is common practice nowadays in what Kyle Gann calls totalist music.

A typical totalist rhythm pattern is something like

qq   q 3:2 q q 3:2 q 3:2 against
5:4  q  q 5:4 5:4 q q 5:4 5:4 

Both measures add up to eight quarter notes, but the pulse is irregular due
to the broken tuplets. 



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 22:08:02 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
> > On 3 Nov 2016, at 21:28, David Wright  wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 10:37:36 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> >> 
> >>> On 3 Nov 2016, at 03:04, David Wright  wrote:
> >>> 
> > The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8.
> 
> >>> Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not familiar with these dances), but
> >>> these are just groupings of steady 16th notes, are they not.
> >> 
> >> Yes, in the definition of the meter, in respons to your question whether 
> >> it might be performable. 13/8 and even 13/16 is performable at moderato 
> >> counting on the 1/4s, though I have no example of the 3+3+3+3+1 occurring 
> >> naturally.
> > 
> > But the three notes I referred to weren't in 13/8 or 13/16 because the
> > last 3 of 3+3+3+3+1 (in 13/8 time) was a made into a duplet.
> 
> It was in response to your comment on 13/8 above.

Oh, OK. Well, I'm not familiar with music in these folk-dancing
traditions, and don't particularly find it easy to pick up on
the patterns involved. My own experience of dancing is mainly
in the Scottish Country Dancing tradition, where such rhythmic
irregularities would be of no help at all. In a tradition where
8-bar phrases rule, a dance like The Wee Cooper of Fife is highly
irregular, having four 10-bar phrases.

> 
> In the Leventikos 12/8, 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, the 3s have duplets metric accents. 
> But it is hard to express that via meter. When notation, oen just sums it up. 
> Bartok used (4+2+3)/8, that is
>   4+2+3
> 8
> but on the Balkans one would just write 9/8 or 9/16. The beaming can indicate 
> metric subaccents, but LilyPond cannot do that automatically, so I just skip 
> it,
> 
> >>> My example wasn't.
> >> 
> >> Then one add another level on the musical line. One example how this 
> >> occurs metrically is the Leventikos in 12.
> >> 
> > 
> > I don't know what "another level on the musical line" means.
> 
> One performer keeps the meter, and the others follow.
> 
> > What I was pointing out was that we have 13/8 consisting of three
> > dotted crochets followed by a duplet (two in the time of a dotted
> > crochet) followed by a quaver. The relationship of these notes is
> > 6 6 6 3 3 2 and I think most people would struggle with getting
> > that last note exactly the correct length.
> 
> In irregular meters, the opposite happens: one looses the feeling for exact 
> proportions. So one has to unlearn the idea of exact beats. If you want exact 
> beats, then you need a sequencer track.

If you say so.

> I am not sure exactly what meter you want, but if the proportions are 
> 3+3+3+3+1, then it will likely feel like a common 9 = 2+2+2+3 with a slight 
> time bend shortening the last beat a bit, which is normally done.

I don't want any meter. All I wanted to do was answer the question
posed by the OP, but using conventional notation (which, it appears,
is sufficient) rather than the rather unconventional approach IMO
posted by Joram.

> The tune Eleno Mome is often played in 7/8, but exists written as 13/16, 13 = 
> 4+4+2+3, where the 3 has typical 2+1 patterns. In live performances, there 
> might be something between 7/8 and 13/16. But exists written as 12/16, 12 = 
> 3+4+2+3, and a performance plays it as 3+2+2+2+3.
> 
> > Of course, if you adopt a pace where you can form that pattern
> > by grouping 26 rapid claps or whatever, then it can get simpler,
> > but I was talking in the context of straightforward note values
> > as sung by, say, a classical singer.
> 
> On Balkans, they use 3s and 2s, counting on the fingers, for example 11 = 
> 2+2+3+2+2. This way, smaller differences than be performed.
> 
> But you might try using flute articulation t-k and t-k-t patterns.
> 
>  This Leventikos is also performed in 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, with quadruplets on 
>  the 3s - se my other post in this thread.
> >>> 
> >>> OK, the quadruplets add another layer of complexity. The note
> >>> durations are now 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+ 4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4 / 48.
> >>> So taking this Leventikos pattern, I've bent the "4/4+1/3" so
> >>> that it contains similar tupleticity, to coin a nonce word.
> >> 
> >> Yes, indeed. In the Leventikos, the quadruplet pattern occurs 
> >> consistently. When performing, there are slower 1/16th contrasted with 
> >> faster ones. Some performers have triplets on the 2s, and quintuplets 
> >> occur in Balkan music as well. So it can be more complex.
> >> 
> >>> I've broken the 13/8 time signature into the appropriate groups,
> >>> 3/8+3/8+3/8+3/8+1/8. I've followed this with the 4/4/+1/12
> >>> time signature's equivalent notation for the same durations.
> >>> The actual rhythm of the individual notes in both cases is
> >>> 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4 / 52.
> >> 
> >> A problem with this meter is that the 1/3 at the end is fairly short, so 
> >> it may be distorted by metric time bends: there is a tendency in Balkan 
> >> music 

Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.11.2016 um 02:39 schrieb Urs Liska:
>
> Am 02.11.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Chris Yate:
>> particularly as it utterly confuses those players that don't know how
>> to parse it.
> Any musical notation utterly confuses those players that don't know how
> to parse it. Actually you could extend that to written text as well.

To clarify, this wasn't meant as a joke. On the one hand those musicians
who will be able to perform this kind of music won't have an issue
reading it. On the other hand there *are* many people arguing that music
notation is way too complex to learn but who claim to express themselves
musically anyway.

Urs

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.11.2016 um 01:56 schrieb mclaren:
> Oops. Unless I'm mistaken, 4 + 1 triplet eighth note would be 4 + 1/6, not 4
> + 1/3.

You *are* mistaken. 4 quarters + 1 triplet eight is 4/4 + 1/12.

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 18:00:59 (-0700), mclaren wrote:
> "Wouldn't that rather be (4 + 2/3)/4?"
> 
> Yes, I think you're right. 1/3 is presumably half of the value of a triplet
> quarter note, so 1 triplet eighth note. I've corrected that in my second
> Lilypond example. My bad.
> 
> Change the "6" denominator in my new Lilypond code to a 3 to get the meter
> to display correctly. But the measures do print correctly, so this code
> should get what Tobin Chodos wants, I think, 4 quarter notes + 1 triplet
> eighth in every measure.

I think Joram pointed that out in
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-10/msg00584.html
and most/all of this discussion has made that assumption. AFAIK the
OP has neither confirmed nor disagreed with this change.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Urs Liska]

Am 02.11.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Chris Yate:
> particularly as it utterly confuses those players that don't know how
> to parse it.

Any musical notation utterly confuses those players that don't know how
to parse it. Actually you could extend that to written text as well.

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 17:13:14 (-0700), mclaren wrote:
> I have an even more diabolical question, related to the one at the start of
> this thread. 
> 
> But let me first answer the original question, which was: "Is there a way to
> implement a non-binary time signature like 4 + 1/3?" I think I know a way to
> do this.
> 
> This seems like an entirely valid question. 1/3 would be a single triplet
> note, right? That is, if we're dealing with (4 + 1/3)/4, then what we want
> is 4 quarter notes + 1 triplet quarter note, correct?  In that case, can't
> we get the same effect by doing [X number of triplets equivalent to 4
> quarter notes] + 1 triplet quarter note?
> 
> The number of triplet quarter notes = 4 quarter note is of course 12,
> therefore the total is 12 + 1 triplet quarter notes, and therefore the time
> signature should be 13/3.

Um, I'm trying to find the difference between that and
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-10/msg00586.html

Why do you have a denominator of "3". Why not 13/2 or 13/4 or 13/8 or 13/16?

> And here's an example of the score output on imgur:
> http://imgur.com/a/cSyML

To me, that looks like
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-10/msg00584.html
except that you've suppressed the "a a" following the barline check
which Joram didn't bother to do.

That's the first thing you do (and I did).
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00074.html

Then you look at it again and realise that those number "3"s that
pepper the score are inappropriate as there isn't 3 of anything.
The obvious thing to do is to change to the ratio annotation, as in
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00083.html

> Now here's my even more diabolical question:
> How do you get Lilypond to do a meter and print barlines properly on a time
> signature like
> 4 + (square root of 3)? And get valid page breaks?

I dpn't know. This seems to have more to do with mathematics than any
music I enjoy performing or listening to.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[mclaren]

Yes, Thomas Ades and Brian Ferneyhough and Kyle Gann and many others have
written music in non-binary meters like 7/6 and 21/10 and so on. This is
hardly unusual nowadays. In fact, these kinds of meters go all the way back
to Henry Cowell's "New Musical Resources," written in 1930, though Cowell
used idiosyncratic notation (diamond-shaped and square-shaped noteheads)
instead of a non-binary meter. But this kind of stuff has been done in
serious contemporary music since 1930 at least, so it's hardly
earth-shattering or exotic.

Irrational meters like 5 in the time of the cube root of 1119, now, that's
considered exotic today.



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[mclaren]

"Wouldn't that rather be (4 + 2/3)/4?"

Yes, I think you're right. 1/3 is presumably half of the value of a triplet
quarter note, so 1 triplet eighth note. I've corrected that in my second
Lilypond example. My bad.

Change the "6" denominator in my new Lilypond code to a 3 to get the meter
to display correctly. But the measures do print correctly, so this code
should get what Tobin Chodos wants, I think, 4 quarter notes + 1 triplet
eighth in every measure.





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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[mclaren]

Tobin Chodos mentioned: "That is, the measure is four quarter notes long plus
one triplet eighth note."

Oops. Unless I'm mistaken, 4 + 1 triplet eighth note would be 4 + 1/6, not 4
+ 1/3. My Lilypond code was based on the assumption that you had 4 quarter
notes + 1 triplet quarter note. 

Here's the Lilypond code for 4 + 1/6 meter, i.e., 4 quarter notes + 1
triplet eighth note in every measure.

\version "2.18.2"

\header { 
  tagline = ""  % removed 
} 

#(set-default-paper-size "a4" 'landscape)
%\layout {}

indent=0
<<
  
\new Staff { \clef "treble"
 \relative c''
   \override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = ##f 
  \time 13/8
% We need this time signature to get the beat
% structure, but this time signature won't print.
% Now we insert the time sig that does print. 

% This is the time signature that will print

 \override Staff.TimeSignature.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print 
  \override Staff.TimeSignature.text = 
  \markup \override #'(baseline-skip . 0) \center-column \number { 
\concat { "4 + 1" } 
  \hspace #-0.1 
  \override #'(offset . -32) 
  \override #'(thickness . 1.6) 
   "6"}


\set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 1265/780)
% This sets the barline locations. I had to play around with this
% make-moment value to get the barlines to place properly. AFAICT
% this make-moment vlaue is a by-guess-and-by-God "magic" value
% that has to be fiddled with by trial and error to get it right.
\relative c''
\scaleDurations 3/2 {

   c4 d f e \tuplet 3/2{b8} c4  b a  c  \tuplet 3/2{b8} c4 d f, g  \tuplet
3/2{b8}  c4 d c f, \tuplet 3/2{b8} e4  f g  d  \tuplet 3/2{b8} c4 d f, g 
\tuplet 3/2{b8}  c4 d f e \tuplet 3/2{b8} c4  d f  e  \tuplet 3/2{b8} c4 d
f, g  \tuplet 3/2{b8}
\bar ""
\break
c4 d f e \tuplet 3/2{b8} c4  b a  c  \tuplet 3/2{b8} c4 d f, g  \tuplet
3/2{b8}  c4 d c f, \tuplet 3/2{b8} e4  f g  d  \tuplet 3/2{b8}

} 
}

%\new Staff { \clef "bass"
% \relative c,
   
%  \time 4/4
%\set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 4/4)
 %{a,4 b, c d  a,4 b, c d   a,4 b, c d   a,4 b, c d   a,4 b, c d}
%}
>>  








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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Martin Neubauer]

On 04/11/2016 01:13, mclaren wrote:

> This seems like an entirely valid question. 1/3 would be a single triplet
> note, right? That is, if we're dealing with (4 + 1/3)/4, then what we want
> is 4 quarter notes + 1 triplet quarter note, correct?
Wouldn't that be rather (4 + 2/3)/4?

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[mclaren]

I have an even more diabolical question, related to the one at the start of
this thread. 

But let me first answer the original question, which was: "Is there a way to
implement a non-binary time signature like 4 + 1/3?" I think I know a way to
do this.

This seems like an entirely valid question. 1/3 would be a single triplet
note, right? That is, if we're dealing with (4 + 1/3)/4, then what we want
is 4 quarter notes + 1 triplet quarter note, correct?  In that case, can't
we get the same effect by doing [X number of triplets equivalent to 4
quarter notes] + 1 triplet quarter note?

The number of triplet quarter notes = 4 quarter note is of course 12,
therefore the total is 12 + 1 triplet quarter notes, and therefore the time
signature should be 13/3.

Fortunately, the Lilypond snippets show us how to get a non-binary time
signature like this. The solution is two fold: first, set te time signature
to 13/4 and erase the time signature so it doesn't plrint and then insert an
artificial time signature which gets printed but not used. Second, use
\scaleDurations to get triplets for all notes in each measure.

Here's my Lilypond code:

\version "2.18.2"

\header { 
  tagline = ""  % removed 
} 

#(set-default-paper-size "a4" 'landscape)
%\layout {}

indent=0
<<
  
\new Staff { \clef "treble"
 \relative c''
   \override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = ##f 
  \time 13/8
% We need this time signature to get the beat
% structure, but this time signature won't print.
% Now we insert the time sig that does print. 

% This is the time signature that will print

 \override Staff.TimeSignature.stencil = #ly:text-interface::print 
  \override Staff.TimeSignature.text = 
  \markup \override #'(baseline-skip . 0) \center-column \number { 
\concat { "4 + 1" } 
  \hspace #-0.1 
  \override #'(offset . -32) 
  \override #'(thickness . 1.6) 
   "3"}


\set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 1364/780)
% This sets the barline locations. I had to play around with this
% make-moment value to get the barlines to place properly. AFAICT
% this make-moment vlaue is a by-guess-and-by-God "magic" value
% that has to be fiddled with by trial and error to get it right.
\relative c''
\scaleDurations 3/2 {

   c4 d f e \tuplet 3/2{b4} c4  b a  c  \tuplet 3/2{b4} c4 d f, g  \tuplet
3/2{b4}  c4 d c f, \tuplet 3/2{b4} e4  f g  d  \tuplet 3/2{b4} c4 d f, g 
\tuplet 3/2{b4}  c4 d f e \tuplet 3/2{b4} c4  d f  e  \tuplet 3/2{b4} c4 d
f, g  \tuplet 3/2{b4}
\bar ""
\break
c4 d f e \tuplet 3/2{b4} c4  b a  c  \tuplet 3/2{b4} c4 d f, g  \tuplet
3/2{b4}  c4 d c f, \tuplet 3/2{b4} e4  f g  d  \tuplet 3/2{b4}

} 
}

%\new Staff { \clef "bass"
% \relative c,
   
%  \time 4/4
%\set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 4/4)
 %{a,4 b, c d  a,4 b, c d   a,4 b, c d   a,4 b, c d   a,4 b, c d}
%}
>>  

And here's an example of the score output on imgur:
http://imgur.com/a/cSyML

Now here's my even more diabolical question:
How do you get Lilypond to do a meter and print barlines properly on a time
signature like
4 + (square root of 3)? And get valid page breaks?







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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Hans Åberg]

> On 3 Nov 2016, at 21:28, David Wright  wrote:
> 
> On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 10:37:36 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3 Nov 2016, at 03:04, David Wright  wrote:
>>> 
> The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8.

>>> Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not familiar with these dances), but
>>> these are just groupings of steady 16th notes, are they not.
>> 
>> Yes, in the definition of the meter, in respons to your question whether it 
>> might be performable. 13/8 and even 13/16 is performable at moderato 
>> counting on the 1/4s, though I have no example of the 3+3+3+3+1 occurring 
>> naturally.
> 
> But the three notes I referred to weren't in 13/8 or 13/16 because the
> last 3 of 3+3+3+3+1 (in 13/8 time) was a made into a duplet.

It was in response to your comment on 13/8 above.

In the Leventikos 12/8, 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, the 3s have duplets metric accents. But 
it is hard to express that via meter. When notation, oen just sums it up. 
Bartok used (4+2+3)/8, that is
  4+2+3
8
but on the Balkans one would just write 9/8 or 9/16. The beaming can indicate 
metric subaccents, but LilyPond cannot do that automatically, so I just skip it,

>>> My example wasn't.
>> 
>> Then one add another level on the musical line. One example how this occurs 
>> metrically is the Leventikos in 12.
>> 
> 
> I don't know what "another level on the musical line" means.

One performer keeps the meter, and the others follow.

> What I was pointing out was that we have 13/8 consisting of three
> dotted crochets followed by a duplet (two in the time of a dotted
> crochet) followed by a quaver. The relationship of these notes is
> 6 6 6 3 3 2 and I think most people would struggle with getting
> that last note exactly the correct length.

In irregular meters, the opposite happens: one looses the feeling for exact 
proportions. So one has to unlearn the idea of exact beats. If you want exact 
beats, then you need a sequencer track.

I am not sure exactly what meter you want, but if the proportions are 
3+3+3+3+1, then it will likely feel like a common 9 = 2+2+2+3 with a slight 
time bend shortening the last beat a bit, which is normally done.

The tune Eleno Mome is often played in 7/8, but exists written as 13/16, 13 = 
4+4+2+3, where the 3 has typical 2+1 patterns. In live performances, there 
might be something between 7/8 and 13/16. But exists written as 12/16, 12 = 
3+4+2+3, and a performance plays it as 3+2+2+2+3.

> Of course, if you adopt a pace where you can form that pattern
> by grouping 26 rapid claps or whatever, then it can get simpler,
> but I was talking in the context of straightforward note values
> as sung by, say, a classical singer.

On Balkans, they use 3s and 2s, counting on the fingers, for example 11 = 
2+2+3+2+2. This way, smaller differences than be performed.

But you might try using flute articulation t-k and t-k-t patterns.

 This Leventikos is also performed in 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, with quadruplets on 
 the 3s - se my other post in this thread.
>>> 
>>> OK, the quadruplets add another layer of complexity. The note
>>> durations are now 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+ 4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4 / 48.
>>> So taking this Leventikos pattern, I've bent the "4/4+1/3" so
>>> that it contains similar tupleticity, to coin a nonce word.
>> 
>> Yes, indeed. In the Leventikos, the quadruplet pattern occurs consistently. 
>> When performing, there are slower 1/16th contrasted with faster ones. Some 
>> performers have triplets on the 2s, and quintuplets occur in Balkan music as 
>> well. So it can be more complex.
>> 
>>> I've broken the 13/8 time signature into the appropriate groups,
>>> 3/8+3/8+3/8+3/8+1/8. I've followed this with the 4/4/+1/12
>>> time signature's equivalent notation for the same durations.
>>> The actual rhythm of the individual notes in both cases is
>>> 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4 / 52.
>> 
>> A problem with this meter is that the 1/3 at the end is fairly short, so it 
>> may be distorted by metric time bends: there is a tendency in Balkan music 
>> to shorten the measure at the end.
> 
> Hey, that's my point. You call it "metric time bends" and that's fine
> in the context of your musical examples

Then it sound as a regular 9/8 or 9/16.

>> So the question is how to bring out the triplet nature. Otherwise replacing 
>> the 1/3 with 1/4 or 1/2 might do well, from the practical point of view. The 
>> meter 9 = 2+2+2+3 is very common, so at faster tempo, your meter may sound 
>> like this one. Some examples:
>>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-2HVFc4k_k
>>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78ycWoNozLY
> 
> I think you're on a different journey. I'm not trying to "bring out
> the triplet nature" in anything. Perhaps you were misled by my second
> sentence,
> 
> "Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note."
> 
> The "triplet" in that sentence refers back to the OP's
> 
> "the measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet 

Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 10:37:36 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
> > On 3 Nov 2016, at 03:04, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 22:13:54 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> >> 
> >>> On 2 Nov 2016, at 21:08, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 20:10:39 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> On 28 Oct 2016, at 21:48, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> 
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 11:22:00 (-0700), Tobin Chodos wrote:
> >>>>>> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a 
> >>>>>> way to
> >>>>>> define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is, the
> >>>>>> measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Isn't this just 13/8? Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note.
> >>>>> So it's 3+3+3+3+1 all over 8, and the notes will be written out as
> >>>>> four dotted quarter notes and an eighth note per measure.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Indeed, 12/8 may be complicated notationally if the beats of length 3/8 
> >>>> are divided into twos and fours, so 4/4 might be preferred.
> >>> 
> >>> Now that would be interesting. Are the last three notes of the first
> >>> bar realistically performable? OTOH splitting the long notes into
> >>> threes would be straightforward to perform (and to write in 13/8).
> >> 
> >> It is, if the tempo is not too high, and one devices a method for counting.
> >> 
> >>> The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8.
> >> 
> >> At moderato, 1/4 = 120, 13/16 is performable counting on 2s and 3s. One 
> >> example is Krivo Sadovsko horo (Bulgaria), 13 = 4+5+4, 4=2+2, 5 = 2+3:
> >>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jCuUWnwM28
> >> Another is Ispayche horo, 13 = 3+2+3+2+3
> >>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU2za0rbzs
> >> 
> >> At higher tempo, one may need to count on 3s, 4s, and 5s, especially when 
> >> clapping hands:
> >>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aecsGYwtVJM
> >> This is a Leventikos, in video video, it is in 16 = 4+2+3+4+3, but the 
> >> clap hands 4+5+4+3.
> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leventikos
> > 
> > Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not familiar with these dances), but
> > these are just groupings of steady 16th notes, are they not.
> 
> Yes, in the definition of the meter, in respons to your question whether it 
> might be performable. 13/8 and even 13/16 is performable at moderato counting 
> on the 1/4s, though I have no example of the 3+3+3+3+1 occurring naturally.

But the three notes I referred to weren't in 13/8 or 13/16 because the
last 3 of 3+3+3+3+1 (in 13/8 time) was a made into a duplet.

> > My example wasn't.
> 
> Then one add another level on the musical line. One example how this occurs 
> metrically is the Leventikos in 12.
> 

I don't know what "another level on the musical line" means.

What I was pointing out was that we have 13/8 consisting of three
dotted crochets followed by a duplet (two in the time of a dotted
crochet) followed by a quaver. The relationship of these notes is
6 6 6 3 3 2 and I think most people would struggle with getting
that last note exactly the correct length.

Of course, if you adopt a pace where you can form that pattern
by grouping 26 rapid claps or whatever, then it can get simpler,
but I was talking in the context of straightforward note values
as sung by, say, a classical singer.

> >> This Leventikos is also performed in 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, with quadruplets on 
> >> the 3s - se my other post in this thread.
> > 
> > OK, the quadruplets add another layer of complexity. The note
> > durations are now 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+ 4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4 / 48.
> > So taking this Leventikos pattern, I've bent the "4/4+1/3" so
> > that it contains similar tupleticity, to coin a nonce word.
> 
> Yes, indeed. In the Leventikos, the quadruplet pattern occurs consistently. 
> When performing, there are slower 1/16th contrasted with faster ones. Some 
> performers have triplets on the 2s, and quintuplets occur in Balkan music as 
> well. So it can be more complex.
> 
> > I've broken the 13/8 time signature into the appropriate groups,
> > 3/8+3/8+3/8+3/8+1/8. I've followed this with the 4/4/+1/12
> > time signature's equivalent 

Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Hans Åberg]

> On 3 Nov 2016, at 03:04, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 22:13:54 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2 Nov 2016, at 21:08, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 20:10:39 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 28 Oct 2016, at 21:48, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 11:22:00 (-0700), Tobin Chodos wrote:
>>>>>> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is, the
>>>>>> measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Isn't this just 13/8? Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note.
>>>>> So it's 3+3+3+3+1 all over 8, and the notes will be written out as
>>>>> four dotted quarter notes and an eighth note per measure.
>>>> 
>>>> Indeed, 12/8 may be complicated notationally if the beats of length 3/8 
>>>> are divided into twos and fours, so 4/4 might be preferred.
>>> 
>>> Now that would be interesting. Are the last three notes of the first
>>> bar realistically performable? OTOH splitting the long notes into
>>> threes would be straightforward to perform (and to write in 13/8).
>> 
>> It is, if the tempo is not too high, and one devices a method for counting.
>> 
>>> The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8.
>> 
>> At moderato, 1/4 = 120, 13/16 is performable counting on 2s and 3s. One 
>> example is Krivo Sadovsko horo (Bulgaria), 13 = 4+5+4, 4=2+2, 5 = 2+3:
>>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jCuUWnwM28
>> Another is Ispayche horo, 13 = 3+2+3+2+3
>>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU2za0rbzs
>> 
>> At higher tempo, one may need to count on 3s, 4s, and 5s, especially when 
>> clapping hands:
>>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aecsGYwtVJM
>> This is a Leventikos, in video video, it is in 16 = 4+2+3+4+3, but the clap 
>> hands 4+5+4+3.
>>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leventikos
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not familiar with these dances), but
> these are just groupings of steady 16th notes, are they not.

Yes, in the definition of the meter, in respons to your question whether it 
might be performable. 13/8 and even 13/16 is performable at moderato counting 
on the 1/4s, though I have no example of the 3+3+3+3+1 occurring naturally.

> My example wasn't.

Then one add another level on the musical line. One example how this occurs 
metrically is the Leventikos in 12.

>> This Leventikos is also performed in 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, with quadruplets on the 
>> 3s - se my other post in this thread.
> 
> OK, the quadruplets add another layer of complexity. The note
> durations are now 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+ 4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4 / 48.
> So taking this Leventikos pattern, I've bent the "4/4+1/3" so
> that it contains similar tupleticity, to coin a nonce word.

Yes, indeed. In the Leventikos, the quadruplet pattern occurs consistently. 
When performing, there are slower 1/16th contrasted with faster ones. Some 
performers have triplets on the 2s, and quintuplets occur in Balkan music as 
well. So it can be more complex.

> I've broken the 13/8 time signature into the appropriate groups,
> 3/8+3/8+3/8+3/8+1/8. I've followed this with the 4/4/+1/12
> time signature's equivalent notation for the same durations.
> The actual rhythm of the individual notes in both cases is
> 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4 / 52.

A problem with this meter is that the 1/3 at the end is fairly short, so it may 
be distorted by metric time bends: there is a tendency in Balkan music to 
shorten the measure at the end.

So the question is how to bring out the triplet nature. Otherwise replacing the 
1/3 with 1/4 or 1/2 might do well, from the practical point of view. The meter 
9 = 2+2+2+3 is very common, so at faster tempo, your meter may sound like this 
one. Some examples:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-2HVFc4k_k
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78ycWoNozLY

> At the bottom are the versions with undivided notes, with
> the 1/12 notes represented in the only way I can think of.
> 
> One interesting thing that popped out of my 3/8 notation is
> that the odd quaver at the end of each bar can be linked to
> the three quavers in the next bar. The upshot is that the
> overall rhythm is a repeated (4-slow 4-fast 3-slow 4-fast).

Syncopations are common in Balkan music, also on the ornamental level.

> The same rhythm is contained in the 4

Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 22:13:54 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
> > On 2 Nov 2016, at 21:08, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 20:10:39 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> >> 
> >>> On 28 Oct 2016, at 21:48, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 11:22:00 (-0700), Tobin Chodos wrote:
> >>>> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way 
> >>>> to
> >>>> define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is, the
> >>>> measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.
> >>> 
> >>> Isn't this just 13/8? Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note.
> >>> So it's 3+3+3+3+1 all over 8, and the notes will be written out as
> >>> four dotted quarter notes and an eighth note per measure.
> >> 
> >> Indeed, 12/8 may be complicated notationally if the beats of length 3/8 
> >> are divided into twos and fours, so 4/4 might be preferred.
> > 
> > Now that would be interesting. Are the last three notes of the first
> > bar realistically performable? OTOH splitting the long notes into
> > threes would be straightforward to perform (and to write in 13/8).
> 
> It is, if the tempo is not too high, and one devices a method for counting.
> 
> > The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8.
> 
> At moderato, 1/4 = 120, 13/16 is performable counting on 2s and 3s. One 
> example is Krivo Sadovsko horo (Bulgaria), 13 = 4+5+4, 4=2+2, 5 = 2+3:
>   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jCuUWnwM28
> Another is Ispayche horo, 13 = 3+2+3+2+3
>   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU2za0rbzs
> 
> At higher tempo, one may need to count on 3s, 4s, and 5s, especially when 
> clapping hands:
>   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aecsGYwtVJM
> This is a Leventikos, in video video, it is in 16 = 4+2+3+4+3, but the clap 
> hands 4+5+4+3.
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leventikos

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not familiar with these dances), but
these are just groupings of steady 16th notes, are they not.
My example wasn't.

> This Leventikos is also performed in 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, with quadruplets on the 
> 3s - se my other post in this thread.

OK, the quadruplets add another layer of complexity. The note
durations are now 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+ 4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4 / 48.
So taking this Leventikos pattern, I've bent the "4/4+1/3" so
that it contains similar tupleticity, to coin a nonce word.

I've broken the 13/8 time signature into the appropriate groups,
3/8+3/8+3/8+3/8+1/8. I've followed this with the 4/4/+1/12
time signature's equivalent notation for the same durations.
The actual rhythm of the individual notes in both cases is
4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4 / 52.

At the bottom are the versions with undivided notes, with
the 1/12 notes represented in the only way I can think of.

One interesting thing that popped out of my 3/8 notation is
that the odd quaver at the end of each bar can be linked to
the three quavers in the next bar. The upshot is that the
overall rhythm is a repeated (4-slow 4-fast 3-slow 4-fast).

The same rhythm is contained in the 4/4+1/12 notation, but
is it easy to spot? You could make it obvious by writing
   4:2⅔
┌———┐ over it, and leave people to ponder whether its
speed is the same as the triplet's. Lets' see, 2⅔ is 8/3
so 4:(8/3) is 4*3:8 is 12:8 is 3:2. Success.

Having that 1/8 quaver sitting next to the other three makes
the rhythm quite friendly. If the first beat of the bar is
an undivided dotted crochet, that last quaver is much
harder to time correctly. Of course, we have no idea what
the OP wanted to set to their "4/4+1/3" signature, how it
would be divided etc.

Cheers,
David.
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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Hans Åberg]

> On 2 Nov 2016, at 21:08, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 20:10:39 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 28 Oct 2016, at 21:48, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 11:22:00 (-0700), Tobin Chodos wrote:
>>>> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way to
>>>> define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is, the
>>>> measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.
>>> 
>>> Isn't this just 13/8? Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note.
>>> So it's 3+3+3+3+1 all over 8, and the notes will be written out as
>>> four dotted quarter notes and an eighth note per measure.
>> 
>> Indeed, 12/8 may be complicated notationally if the beats of length 3/8 are 
>> divided into twos and fours, so 4/4 might be preferred.
> 
> Now that would be interesting. Are the last three notes of the first
> bar realistically performable? OTOH splitting the long notes into
> threes would be straightforward to perform (and to write in 13/8).

It is, if the tempo is not too high, and one devices a method for counting.

> The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8.

At moderato, 1/4 = 120, 13/16 is performable counting on 2s and 3s. One example 
is Krivo Sadovsko horo (Bulgaria), 13 = 4+5+4, 4=2+2, 5 = 2+3:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jCuUWnwM28
Another is Ispayche horo, 13 = 3+2+3+2+3
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU2za0rbzs

At higher tempo, one may need to count on 3s, 4s, and 5s, especially when 
clapping hands:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aecsGYwtVJM
This is a Leventikos, in video video, it is in 16 = 4+2+3+4+3, but the clap 
hands 4+5+4+3.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leventikos
This Leventikos is also performed in 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, with quadruplets on the 3s 
- se my other post in this thread.


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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 20:10:39 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
> > On 28 Oct 2016, at 21:48, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 11:22:00 (-0700), Tobin Chodos wrote:
> >> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way to
> >> define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is, the
> >> measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.
> > 
> > Isn't this just 13/8? Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note.
> > So it's 3+3+3+3+1 all over 8, and the notes will be written out as
> > four dotted quarter notes and an eighth note per measure.
> 
> Indeed, 12/8 may be complicated notationally if the beats of length 3/8 are 
> divided into twos and fours, so 4/4 might be preferred.

Now that would be interesting. Are the last three notes of the first
bar realistically performable? OTOH splitting the long notes into
threes would be straightforward to perform (and to write in 13/8).

The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8.

Cheers,
David.
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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Hans Åberg]

> On 2 Nov 2016, at 19:02, tisimst  wrote:
> 
> ... as Kieren and I saw on a facebook group the other day when a composer 
> started a discussion about having a bar with an "irrational" 2/6 time 
> signature. Wow, the flames that ensued! It's quite simple:
> 
> { \time 2/6 \tuplet 3/2 { c'4 c' } }
> 
> ... with or without the tuplet number/bracket.

I gave an example of a true irrational time signature [1]. The code is actually 
written in 12/8 (with a MIDI approximation in 19/8). In 12/8, as both the 3/8s 
and the 2/8s are divided into four parts, tuplets will remain. 

1. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-06/msg00237.html



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Hans Åberg]

> On 28 Oct 2016, at 21:48, David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 11:22:00 (-0700), Tobin Chodos wrote:
>> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way to
>> define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is, the
>> measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.
> 
> Isn't this just 13/8? Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note.
> So it's 3+3+3+3+1 all over 8, and the notes will be written out as
> four dotted quarter notes and an eighth note per measure.

Indeed, 12/8 may be complicated notationally if the beats of length 3/8 are 
divided into twos and fours, so 4/4 might be preferred.



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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Chris Yate]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 at 18:03 tisimst  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Kieren MacMillan [via Lilypond] <[hidden
> email] > wrote:
>
> It's *legitimate* in all musical circles, though it's not *embraced* by
> all.
>
> ... as Kieren and I saw on a facebook group the other day when a composer
> started a discussion about having a bar with an "irrational" 2/6 time
> signature. Wow, the flames that ensued! It's quite simple:
>
> { \time 2/6 \tuplet 3/2 { c'4 c' } }
>
> ... with or without the tuplet number/bracket.
>
> -
> Abraham
>

Like so many things in life and art, just because you *can* doesn't mean
you *should* ;-)

Luckily, in Lilypond you *can* :-D

Given almost any rhythm could be expressed without the use of silly time
signatures (possibly by eliminating bar lines for a short section, or maybe
writing extra bars*). It makes sense to make life easy for your players,
rather than show off just how clever you are.

I've very occasionally had to play a bar or two of 4/3, and it
unnecessarily complicates something that's already difficult; particularly
as it utterly confuses those players that don't know how to parse it.

Chris

* yes, it could be difficult to write the same bar lines for all players.
Better I think to write partial bar lines and readable rhythms. The same
argument stands for ridiculous key signatures, whether an explicit key sig,
or written as something like a scale of F double-sharp
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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[tisimst]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Kieren MacMillan [via Lilypond] <
ml-node+s1069038n196008...@n5.nabble.com> wrote:

> It's *legitimate* in all musical circles, though it's not *embraced* by
> all.
>
... as Kieren and I saw on a facebook group the other day when a composer
started a discussion about having a bar with an "irrational" 2/6 time
signature. Wow, the flames that ensued! It's quite simple:

{ \time 2/6 \tuplet 3/2 { c'4 c' } }

... with or without the tuplet number/bracket.

--
Abraham




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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 12:49:07 (-0400), kieren_macmillan kieren_macmillan 
> wrote:
> 
>
> I guess I had expected a reference/url/scan rather than "yes".

Zere is some music notation zat makes me 'url.

-- 
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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 12:49:07 (-0400), kieren_macmillan kieren_macmillan wrote:


I guess I had expected a reference/url/scan rather than "yes".
I realise that all sorts of "odd" notations were around in
preclassical times, But wouldn't claim to understand them.

Does the example I've given correctly express the required
relationship between the notes' durations (which is kind of what we
expect with modern music notation).

Say I write 9/6 at the start of a staff. Which glyph do I pick out of
appendix A of the NR manual to follow it with?

Cheers,
David.

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[kieren_macmillan kieren_macmillan]

 
  Hi David,
  It's *legitimate* in all musical circles, though it's not *embraced* by all.
  Cheers,Kieren.
  
   -- Original Message --From: David Wright <lily...@lionunicorn.co.uk>Date: November 2, 2016 at 12:45 PMOn Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 21:13:57 (+0200), Noeck wrote:> > Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way> > to define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3? That is,> > the measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.> > this is definitely a valid question for this list!> This snippet will help you, I guess:> http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743> > However the additional 1/3 is the length of a triplet half note:> 1/3 = 1/2 * 2/3> > \version "2.19.36"> > \relative c' {> \compoundMeter #'((4 4) (1 3))> a4 a a a \tuplet 3/2 { a2 | a a }> }> > For a 4/4 measure plus a triplet 8th note, you would need 1/12 if I am> not mistaken:> > \relative c' {> \compoundMeter #'((4 4) (1 12))> a4 a a a \tuplet 3/2 { a8 | a a }> }So is this legitimate notation in some circles nowadays?Cheers,David.___lilypond-user mailing listlilypond-user@gnu.orghttps://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
  
 


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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 21:13:57 (+0200), Noeck wrote:
> > Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way
> > to define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is,
> > the measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.
> 
> this is definitely a valid question for this list!
> This snippet will help you, I guess:
> http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743
> 
> However the additional 1/3 is the length of a triplet half note:
> 1/3 = 1/2 * 2/3
> 
> \version "2.19.36"
> 
> \relative c' {
>   \compoundMeter #'((4 4) (1 3))
>   a4 a a a \tuplet 3/2 { a2 | a a }
> }
> 
> For a 4/4 measure plus a triplet 8th note, you would need 1/12 if I am
> not mistaken:
> 
> \relative c' {
>   \compoundMeter #'((4 4) (1 12))
>   a4 a a a \tuplet 3/2 { a8 | a a }
> }

So is this legitimate notation in some circles nowadays?

Cheers,
David.
\relative c' {
  \compoundMeter #'((4 4) (1 12))
  a4 a a a \tuplet 3/2 { a8 | } a4 a a a \tuplet 3/2 { a8 | }
}

\relative c' {
  \time 13/8
  a4. a a a a8 | a4. a a a a8 |
}


met.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Simon Albrecht]

On 28.10.2016 21:50, Noeck wrote:

Btw, having the new list syntax in mind I wondered whether this would
work in recent development versions:

\compoundMeter 4/4,1/3

But it does not the 4/4 translates to (4 . 4) and not (4 4).
\compoundMeter (4,4),(1,3) does not work either. Can this list syntax be
grouped somehow? I mean in a way that is nicer to write than the scheme
syntax, otherwise nothing is gained.


Such a feature is not yet implemented. And I don’t think there is any 
obvious way of extending the current syntax to allow such nested lists, 
since it doesn’t have any delimiters for start and end of the list 
except for the spaces. We certainly can’t do

\compoundMeter  4,4 , 1,3
since spaces are not supposed to make such a difference in LilyPond code.

Best, Simon

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Noeck]

Btw, having the new list syntax in mind I wondered whether this would
work in recent development versions:

\compoundMeter 4/4,1/3

But it does not the 4/4 translates to (4 . 4) and not (4 4).
\compoundMeter (4,4),(1,3) does not work either. Can this list syntax be
grouped somehow? I mean in a way that is nicer to write than the scheme
syntax, otherwise nothing is gained.

Cheers,
Joram

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[David Wright]

On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 11:22:00 (-0700), Tobin Chodos wrote:
> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way to
> define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is, the
> measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.

Isn't this just 13/8? Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note.
So it's 3+3+3+3+1 all over 8, and the notes will be written out as
four dotted quarter notes and an eighth note per measure.
And if you divide your crochet beats in twos, they'll have to be
written out as duplets of eighth notes.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Noeck]

> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way
> to define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is,
> the measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.

Hi Tobin,

this is definitely a valid question for this list!
This snippet will help you, I guess:
http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743

However the additional 1/3 is the length of a triplet half note:
1/3 = 1/2 * 2/3

\version "2.19.36"

\relative c' {
  \compoundMeter #'((4 4) (1 3))
  a4 a a a \tuplet 3/2 { a2 | a a }
}

For a 4/4 measure plus a triplet 8th note, you would need 1/12 if I am
not mistaken:

\relative c' {
  \compoundMeter #'((4 4) (1 12))
  a4 a a a \tuplet 3/2 { a8 | a a }
}


HTH,
Joram

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compound time signature with non duple denominator

[Tobin Chodos]

Hi all,

Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a way to
define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3?  That is, the
measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note.

Thanks.

Tobin Chodos
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Re: Bar Lines and Compound Time Signature

[Edward Ardzinski]

Worked like a charm.  Thanks!



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Re: Bar Lines and Compound Time Signature

[Malte Meyn]

Am 12.03.2016 um 19:32 schrieb Edward Ardzinski:

I would like the bar number on the second line to be 9, not 5, counting each
bar of 17 as 1 bar of 9 and another of 8...then have 18 on the beginning of
the 3rd line in the pdf



You could use an extra voice for the changing measure lengths (instead 
of one measure of length 17/8 you get one of length 9/8 and one of 
length 4/4); this voice can also set the \bar ";" commands so you don’t 
have to set them manually in every measure. This is what the \score 
block would look like:


\score {
  <<
\new ChordNames \har
\new Staff <<
  \transpose c c' \bass
  \repeat unfold 32 {
\set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 9/8)
s8*9
\bar ";"
\set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 4/4)
s4*4
  }
>>
  >>
}

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Re: Bar Lines and Compound Time Signature

[Edward Ardzinski]

compound_time_signature_bar_line_issue.pdf
<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n188477/compound_time_signature_bar_line_issue.pdf>
  
compound_time_signature_bar_line_issue.ly
<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n188477/compound_time_signature_bar_line_issue.ly>
  

I would like the bar number on the second line to be 9, not 5, counting each
bar of 17 as 1 bar of 9 and another of 8...then have 18 on the beginning of
the 3rd line in the pdf



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Re: Bar Lines and Compound Time Signature

[Thomas Morley]

2016-03-12 17:36 GMT+01:00 Edward Ardzinski <edward.ardzin...@outlook.com>:
> I'm working on a piece that alternates between 9/8 and 4/4.  The compound
> time signature is great.  Where in my original piece I had the time changes
> in the fragmentary 2 bar music variables, with the compound time signature I
> removed the time changes and forced a bar line after the 9/8 "measure".
>
> This had the desired effect, but I noticed that the bar lines were absent
> when my bar lines caused a new stave set in the middle of the compound TS
> (that is, when the new line began with a 4/4 sub-measure).
>
> Is there a way to get the bar line numbers to follow the subdivisions of the
> compound time signature rather than the entire measure?  Thanks...



A tiny example would be helpful
http://www.lilypond.org/website/tiny-examples.html

Cheers,
  Harm

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Bar Lines and Compound Time Signature

[Edward Ardzinski]

I'm working on a piece that alternates between 9/8 and 4/4.  The compound
time signature is great.  Where in my original piece I had the time changes
in the fragmentary 2 bar music variables, with the compound time signature I
removed the time changes and forced a bar line after the 9/8 "measure".

This had the desired effect, but I noticed that the bar lines were absent
when my bar lines caused a new stave set in the middle of the compound TS
(that is, when the new line began with a 4/4 sub-measure).

Is there a way to get the bar line numbers to follow the subdivisions of the
compound time signature rather than the entire measure?  Thanks...



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Re: custom compound time signature

[David Kastrup]

Thomas Morley thomasmorle...@googlemail.com writes:

 2012/6/2 diekunstderfuge dolcevitafinea...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,

 I'm trying to achieve the compound time signature seen in the image here:
 http://old.nabble.com/file/p33950720/custom_time_signature.png

 As you can see, it's meant to represent 3 bars of 2/4 grouped together as
 one bar. My plan was to write it as one bar of 3/2 and then override the
 time signature stencil.

 First, I've used this snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272 ) to create a dummy staff with
 only the time signatures. (For some reason, \numericTimeSignature does not
 seem to work inside of the TimeSig context. Does anyone know why?)

 Have a look at /ly/property-init.ly. where \numericTimeSignature is defined:
 numericTimeSignature = \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'numbered

 But now you're using a new custom-defined context: TimeSig
 Replace Staff with TimeSig and it will work.

It is much more straightforward to add
\alias Staff
to the definition of the TimeSig context.  Then any overrides for Staff
issued within TimeSig will not get handed upstairs.

This should probably be added to the LSR snippet: while it does not in
itself require it currently, it is likely to cause irritation like here.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: custom compound time signature

[Janek Warchoł]

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 12:29 AM, diekunstderfuge
dolcevitafinea...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm still using 2.12.3 because that is what the Lilypond download site lists
 as the latest stable version for Windows. Where can I find 2.14.2, and how
 could I install it while keeping 2.12.3 in case I need to fall back to the
 earlier version?

Ah, you were probably caught by the Curse of the Old Website.
Our website is no longer lilypond.org/web - now it's lilypond.org
Enjoy new looks!
:)

cheers,
Janek

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Re: custom compound time signature

[David Kastrup]

David Kastrup d...@gnu.org writes:

 Thomas Morley thomasmorle...@googlemail.com writes:

 2012/6/2 diekunstderfuge dolcevitafinea...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,

 I'm trying to achieve the compound time signature seen in the image here:
 http://old.nabble.com/file/p33950720/custom_time_signature.png

 As you can see, it's meant to represent 3 bars of 2/4 grouped together as
 one bar. My plan was to write it as one bar of 3/2 and then override the
 time signature stencil.

 First, I've used this snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272 ) to create a dummy staff with
 only the time signatures. (For some reason, \numericTimeSignature does not
 seem to work inside of the TimeSig context. Does anyone know why?)

 Have a look at /ly/property-init.ly. where \numericTimeSignature is defined:
 numericTimeSignature = \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'numbered

 But now you're using a new custom-defined context: TimeSig
 Replace Staff with TimeSig and it will work.

 It is much more straightforward to add
 \alias Staff
 to the definition of the TimeSig context.  Then any overrides for Staff
 issued within TimeSig will not get handed upstairs.

 This should probably be added to the LSR snippet: while it does not in
 itself require it currently, it is likely to cause irritation like
 here.

Since I got no further reply on this suggestion, here is the respective
code that should work as expected.

\layout {
  \context {
\type Engraver_group
\consists Time_signature_engraver
\consists Axis_group_engraver
\name TimeSig
\alias Staff
\override TimeSignature #'font-size = #3
\override TimeSignature #'break-align-symbol = ##f
\override TimeSignature #'X-offset =
  #ly:self-alignment-interface::x-aligned-on-self
\override TimeSignature #'self-alignment-X = #CENTER
\override TimeSignature #'after-line-breaking =
  #shift-right-at-line-begin
  }
  \context {
\Score
\accepts TimeSig
  }
  \context {
\Staff
\remove Time_signature_engraver
  }
}

timeSignatures = { \numericTimeSignature \time 2/4 s2 \time 3/4 s2. \time 4/4 
s1 }

\score {
  
\new TimeSig \timeSignatures
\new Staff \relative { c'2 c2. c1 }
\new Staff { a2 a2. a1 }
  
}

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: custom compound time signature

[Thomas Morley]

2012/6/4 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org:
 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org writes:

 Thomas Morley thomasmorle...@googlemail.com writes:

 2012/6/2 diekunstderfuge dolcevitafinea...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,

 I'm trying to achieve the compound time signature seen in the image here:
 http://old.nabble.com/file/p33950720/custom_time_signature.png

 As you can see, it's meant to represent 3 bars of 2/4 grouped together as
 one bar. My plan was to write it as one bar of 3/2 and then override the
 time signature stencil.

 First, I've used this snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272 ) to create a dummy staff with
 only the time signatures. (For some reason, \numericTimeSignature does not
 seem to work inside of the TimeSig context. Does anyone know why?)

 Have a look at /ly/property-init.ly. where \numericTimeSignature is defined:
 numericTimeSignature = \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'numbered

 But now you're using a new custom-defined context: TimeSig
 Replace Staff with TimeSig and it will work.

 It is much more straightforward to add
 \alias Staff
 to the definition of the TimeSig context.  Then any overrides for Staff
 issued within TimeSig will not get handed upstairs.

 This should probably be added to the LSR snippet: while it does not in
 itself require it currently, it is likely to cause irritation like
 here.

 Since I got no further reply on this suggestion, here is the respective
 code that should work as expected.

 \layout {
  \context {
    \type Engraver_group
    \consists Time_signature_engraver
    \consists Axis_group_engraver
    \name TimeSig
    \alias Staff
    \override TimeSignature #'font-size = #3
    \override TimeSignature #'break-align-symbol = ##f
    \override TimeSignature #'X-offset =
      #ly:self-alignment-interface::x-aligned-on-self
    \override TimeSignature #'self-alignment-X = #CENTER
    \override TimeSignature #'after-line-breaking =
      #shift-right-at-line-begin
  }
  \context {
    \Score
    \accepts TimeSig
  }
  \context {
    \Staff
    \remove Time_signature_engraver
  }
 }

 timeSignatures = { \numericTimeSignature \time 2/4 s2 \time 3/4 s2. \time 4/4 
 s1 }

 \score {
  
    \new TimeSig \timeSignatures
    \new Staff \relative { c'2 c2. c1 }
    \new Staff { a2 a2. a1 }
  
 }

 --
 David Kastrup

Hi David,

sorry for the late reply and many thanks for your effort.

I changed http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272 following your suggestion.

-Harm

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Re: custom compound time signature

[David Kastrup]

Thomas Morley thomasmorle...@googlemail.com writes:

 It is much more straightforward to add
 \alias Staff
 to the definition of the TimeSig context.  Then any overrides for Staff
 issued within TimeSig will not get handed upstairs.

 This should probably be added to the LSR snippet: while it does not in
 itself require it currently, it is likely to cause irritation like
 here.

 sorry for the late reply and many thanks for your effort.

 I changed http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272 following your suggestion.

I wanted to put out the usual we need to document this tirade, but it
turns out that
URL:http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/notation/defining-new-contexts
actually does state

Since it is similar to the Voice, we want commands that work on
(existing) Voices to remain working. This is achieved by giving the
new context an alias Voice,

\alias Voice

Which is rather close.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: custom compound time signature

[diekunstderfuge]

Thank you so much! This code worked perfectly. You were of course absolutely
right about the context for \numericTimeSignature...I can't believe I didn't
spot that myself!

I have not worked with Scheme before and I would like to start learning how
to write advanced tweaks for Lilypond as well as functions to automate some
of the writing of music expressions. So far I've noticed on my own some
differences (such as #(define... for music expression functions, but
#(lambda... for dealing with grobs) but I haven't found a good resource to
help me learn more about these details. I'm a musician/musicologist with
only a little programming experience.

I'm still using 2.12.3 because that is what the Lilypond download site lists
as the latest stable version for Windows. Where can I find 2.14.2, and how
could I install it while keeping 2.12.3 in case I need to fall back to the
earlier version?

Many thanks!


harm6 wrote:
 
 2012/6/2 diekunstderfuge dolcevitafinea...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,

 I'm trying to achieve the compound time signature seen in the image here:
 http://old.nabble.com/file/p33950720/custom_time_signature.png

 As you can see, it's meant to represent 3 bars of 2/4 grouped together as
 one bar. My plan was to write it as one bar of 3/2 and then override the
 time signature stencil.

 First, I've used this snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272 ) to create a dummy staff with
 only the time signatures. (For some reason, \numericTimeSignature does
 not
 seem to work inside of the TimeSig context. Does anyone know why?)
 
 Have a look at /ly/property-init.ly. where \numericTimeSignature is
 defined:
 numericTimeSignature = \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'numbered
 
 But now you're using a new custom-defined context: TimeSig
 Replace Staff with TimeSig and it will work.
 
 This snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=609
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=609 ) prints only the numerator of
 the
 time signature, which I need to get the 3. I do not know how to combine
 this with a compound time signature
 
 Try:
 
 
 
 \version 2.14.2
 
 customTimeSigI =
  \once \override TimeSig.TimeSignature #'stencil =
#(lambda (grob)
   (grob-interpret-markup grob
 (markup
   #:vcenter #:number 3
   #:vcenter x
   #:override '(baseline-skip . 0) #:number (#:column (2 4)
 
 \layout {
   \context {
 \type Engraver_group
 \consists Time_signature_engraver
 \consists Axis_group_engraver
 \name TimeSig
 \override TimeSignature #'font-size = #2
 \override TimeSignature #'break-align-symbol = ##f
 \override TimeSignature #'X-offset =
   #ly:self-alignment-interface::x-aligned-on-self
 \override TimeSignature #'self-alignment-X = #CENTER
 %\override TimeSignature #'self-alignment-X = #LEFT
 \override TimeSignature #'after-line-breaking =
   #shift-right-at-line-begin
   }
   \context {
 \Score
 \accepts TimeSig
   }
   \context {
 \Staff
 \remove Time_signature_engraver
   }
 }
 
 timeSignatures = {
 \override TimeSig.TimeSignature #'style = #'numbered
 \time 2/4
 s2
 \time 3/4
 s2.
 \time 4/4
 s1
 \customTimeSigI
 \time 6/4
 \set Score.beatStructure = #'(2 2 2)
 s1.
 }
 
 \score {
   
 \new TimeSig \timeSignatures
 \new Staff \relative { c'2 c2. c1 c1. \repeat unfold 12 { c8 } }
 \new Staff { a2 a2. a1 a1. a1.}
   
 }
 
 
 
 Controlling beaming behavior, often a concern with compound time
 signatures,
 is not important as the TimeSig staff displays only time signatures.
 
 I added the 2.14.2-command \set Score.beatStructure = #'(2 2 2)
 Delete it if you want or replace it with an 2.12.3-command.
 But please note: it _will_ affect the score.
 
 I am using 2.12.3.
 
 Why do you use this outdated version?
 Well, some time ago the LSR was on 2.12.3 and that was the reason
 why I didn't delete this version, while installing the newer stable
 version and the newest development-version.
 But I'm absolutely sure that the LSR is now on 2.14.2 :)
 
 HTH,
   Harm
 
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 lilypond-user@gnu.org
 https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
 
 

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Re: custom compound time signature

[Colin Campbell]

On 12-06-03 04:29 PM, diekunstderfuge wrote:

Thank you so much! This code worked perfectly. You were of course absolutely
right about the context for \numericTimeSignature...I can't believe I didn't
spot that myself!

I have not worked with Scheme before and I would like to start learning how
to write advanced tweaks for Lilypond as well as functions to automate some
of the writing of music expressions. So far I've noticed on my own some
differences (such as #(define... for music expression functions, but
#(lambda... for dealing with grobs) but I haven't found a good resource to
help me learn more about these details. I'm a musician/musicologist with
only a little programming experience.

I'm still using 2.12.3 because that is what the Lilypond download site lists
as the latest stable version for Windows. Where can I find 2.14.2, and how
could I install it while keeping 2.12.3 in case I need to fall back to the
earlier version?

Many thanks!






If you go to http://www.lilypond.org/windows.html you'll get a link to 
2.14.2 which is the latest stable release, and also where you will find 
the next stable version, 2.16, due shortly.


As to running two versions under Windows, the following is quoted from 
our mail list:

From: James Lowe James.Lowe@...

From: James Lowe James.Lowe@...
Cc: Lilypond-User lilypond-user@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: Different versions of LilyPond



That sounds awfully complicated (and one would question the legality of
having multiple installs of the same version of XP on one machine but I
haven't read MS's EULA)

Can't you just

1. install version 2.12.whatever
2. rename lilypond dir accordingly
3. install ve4rsion 2.13.whatever
4. rename lilypond dir accordingly

and just put back the old dir name for the version you want to use.

I believe pretty much everything is self-contained.

James 


I think you'll find the change from 2.12 to 2.14 to be pretty painless, 
although you should run the convert.ly script over the .ly you want to 
update, or better, use Wilbert Berendsen's Frescobaldi program, where 
convert-ly is a menu option.


Hope this helps!

Colin the Elder

--
I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both 
hands.
You need to be able to throw something back.
-Maya Angelou, poet (1928- )

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custom compound time signature

[diekunstderfuge]

Hi all,

I'm trying to achieve the compound time signature seen in the image here:
http://old.nabble.com/file/p33950720/custom_time_signature.png 

As you can see, it's meant to represent 3 bars of 2/4 grouped together as
one bar. My plan was to write it as one bar of 3/2 and then override the
time signature stencil. 

First, I've used this snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272
http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272 ) to create a dummy staff with
only the time signatures. (For some reason, \numericTimeSignature does not
seem to work inside of the TimeSig context. Does anyone know why?)

This snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=609
http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=609 ) prints only the numerator of the
time signature, which I need to get the 3. I do not know how to combine
this with a compound time signature (I tried the method described in 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Time-signature
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Time-signature
 
to produce a compound time signature, but this did not work for me). 

Controlling beaming behavior, often a concern with compound time signatures,
is not important as the TimeSig staff displays only time signatures.

I am using 2.12.3. Any help would be very gratefully appreciated! Thanks!!

~diekunstderfuge
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complex compound time signature: fraction + note

[Ezequiel Birman]

I am using http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743 to type compund time
signatures but in order to copy a score accurately, I need to be able to
write the fraction plus a note glyph.

For example:

\compoundMeter #'((5 4) (1 8)) yelds 5/4 + 1/8

But i need 5/4 + eight-note-glyph

I tried to modify the code myself but this is way beyond my skills.

-- 
Ezequiel Birman


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Re: complex compound time signature: fraction + note

[Nathan]

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Ezequiel Birman
stormwa...@espiga4.com.ar wrote:
 I am using http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743 to type compund time
 signatures but in order to copy a score accurately, I need to be able to
 write the fraction plus a note glyph.

 For example:

 \compoundMeter #'((5 4) (1 8)) yelds 5/4 + 1/8

 But i need 5/4 + eight-note-glyph

 I tried to modify the code myself but this is way beyond my skills.

 --
 Ezequiel Birman


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In 2.14.2:

\new Staff {
  \once \override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil =
#(lambda (grob)
   (grob-interpret-markup grob
 (markup
   #:override '(baseline-skip . 0) #:number (#:column (5 4))
   #:vcenter +
   #:raise 1 #:note 8 -1.1)))
  \time 11/8
  \set Score.beatStructure = #'(2 2 2 2 2 1)
  % Placeholder music -- alter beatStructure if you don't like this beaming
  \repeat unfold 11 c'8
}

Sadly, I don't have the time or skill to make this into an automated
Scheme function. Hope this helps!

Regards,
Nathan

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Re: custom compound time signature

[Thomas Morley]

2012/6/2 diekunstderfuge dolcevitafinea...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,

 I'm trying to achieve the compound time signature seen in the image here:
 http://old.nabble.com/file/p33950720/custom_time_signature.png

 As you can see, it's meant to represent 3 bars of 2/4 grouped together as
 one bar. My plan was to write it as one bar of 3/2 and then override the
 time signature stencil.

 First, I've used this snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=272 ) to create a dummy staff with
 only the time signatures. (For some reason, \numericTimeSignature does not
 seem to work inside of the TimeSig context. Does anyone know why?)

Have a look at /ly/property-init.ly. where \numericTimeSignature is defined:
numericTimeSignature = \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'numbered

But now you're using a new custom-defined context: TimeSig
Replace Staff with TimeSig and it will work.

 This snippet ( http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=609
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=609 ) prints only the numerator of the
 time signature, which I need to get the 3. I do not know how to combine
 this with a compound time signature

Try:



\version 2.14.2

customTimeSigI =
 \once \override TimeSig.TimeSignature #'stencil =
   #(lambda (grob)
  (grob-interpret-markup grob
(markup
  #:vcenter #:number 3
  #:vcenter x
  #:override '(baseline-skip . 0) #:number (#:column (2 4)

\layout {
  \context {
\type Engraver_group
\consists Time_signature_engraver
\consists Axis_group_engraver
\name TimeSig
\override TimeSignature #'font-size = #2
\override TimeSignature #'break-align-symbol = ##f
\override TimeSignature #'X-offset =
  #ly:self-alignment-interface::x-aligned-on-self
\override TimeSignature #'self-alignment-X = #CENTER
%\override TimeSignature #'self-alignment-X = #LEFT
\override TimeSignature #'after-line-breaking =
  #shift-right-at-line-begin
  }
  \context {
\Score
\accepts TimeSig
  }
  \context {
\Staff
\remove Time_signature_engraver
  }
}

timeSignatures = {
\override TimeSig.TimeSignature #'style = #'numbered
\time 2/4
s2
\time 3/4
s2.
\time 4/4
s1
\customTimeSigI
\time 6/4
\set Score.beatStructure = #'(2 2 2)
s1.
}

\score {
  
\new TimeSig \timeSignatures
\new Staff \relative { c'2 c2. c1 c1. \repeat unfold 12 { c8 } }
\new Staff { a2 a2. a1 a1. a1.}
  
}



 Controlling beaming behavior, often a concern with compound time signatures,
 is not important as the TimeSig staff displays only time signatures.

I added the 2.14.2-command \set Score.beatStructure = #'(2 2 2)
Delete it if you want or replace it with an 2.12.3-command.
But please note: it _will_ affect the score.

 I am using 2.12.3.

Why do you use this outdated version?
Well, some time ago the LSR was on 2.12.3 and that was the reason
why I didn't delete this version, while installing the newer stable
version and the newest development-version.
But I'm absolutely sure that the LSR is now on 2.14.2 :)

HTH,
  Harm

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Re: Compound time signature

[Janek Warchoł]

2011/6/1 Paul Scott waterho...@ultrasw.com

 No.  I need for example:

 3/4 6/8 3/4 bar barline 6/8 bar barline 3/4 bar barline 6/8
 bar barline etc.


I remember that i saw something like that done in Lily, but i cannot find it
:(
I found this in archives:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2005-08/msg00260.html
maybe what they mention is the example i saw - unfortunately manuals are now
rearranged.
If you find it, please tell us where it was hidden.

HTH,
Janek
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Re: Compound time signature

[David Bobroff]

On 6/1/2011 6:30 AM, Janek Warchoł wrote:
2011/6/1 Paul Scott waterho...@ultrasw.com 
mailto:waterho...@ultrasw.com


No.  I need for example:

3/4 6/8 3/4 bar barline 6/8 bar barline 3/4 bar
barline 6/8 bar barline etc.


I remember that i saw something like that done in Lily, but i cannot 
find it :(

I found this in archives:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2005-08/msg00260.html
maybe what they mention is the example i saw - unfortunately manuals 
are now rearranged.

If you find it, please tell us where it was hidden.

HTH,
Janek


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I used the following hack to do a mixed meter in Don Quixote (I'm not 
the one associated with the above referenced message, though).  Be aware 
that this was done for v2.11.27.  Also, from your description I don't 
think this will do quite what you want.  If I understand correctly, you 
want to alternate between 3/4 and 6/8 but you don't want to redisplay 
the time signature at every bar.  Since 3/4 and 6/8 have the same number 
of beats but are organized differently maybe what you need to do is to 
use something like what I've done below to display the 3/4 \\ 6/8 
alternation but then alternate the beaming rules from bar to bar.


-David


mySig = {
#(define (compound-time one two three four)
  (markup #:override '(baseline-skip . 0) #:number
   (#:line ((#:column (one three)) #:vcenter  (#:column (two four))

  %% compound time signature hack
  \time 5/4
  \override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
  \override Staff.TimeSignature #'text = #(compound-time 2 3 4 4 )
}
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Re: Compound time signature

[Nick Payne]

Is this what you're after?

\version 2.13.62

#(define ((compound-time one two numa numb) grob)
(grob-interpret-markup grob
(markup #:override '(baseline-skip . 0) #:number
(#:line ((#:column (one numa))
(#:column (two numb)))

\relative c' {
\time 6/8
\override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = #(compound-time 3 6 
4 8)

c4 c c |
c8 c c c c c |
}

On 01/06/11 15:58, Paul Scott wrote:

On 05/02/2011 02:55 AM, James Lowe wrote:

Paul,

)-Original Message-
)From: lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org
)[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org] On
)Behalf Of Paul Scott
)Sent: 01 May 2011 20:15
)To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
)Subject: Re: Compound time signature
)
)On 04/30/2011 10:24 AM, Thomas Scharkowski wrote:
)  Hi,
)
)I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:
)
)Is there a way to generate a (complex?) time signature that 
indicates bars

)alternating between two different time signatures?  I have seen this in
)several band pieces as well as the score for Man of La Mancha.  A
)common one is 3/4 6/8 but I an example of 3/4 4/4.
)


http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=261

Does that do what you want?

or

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743

for another option.

also this

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=395


No.  I need for example:

3/4 6/8 3/4 bar barline 6/8 bar barline 3/4 bar barline 
6/8 bar barline etc.


A classic example is America from West Side Story  The parts I was 
reworking for a show were from Man of La Mancha


Thanks,

Paul




James







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Re: Compound time signature

[Reinhold Kainhofer]

Am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2011, 07:58:39 schrieb Paul Scott:
 No.  I need for example:
 
 3/4 6/8 3/4 bar barline 6/8 bar barline 3/4 bar barline 6/8
 bar barline etc.
 
 A classic example is America from West Side Story  The parts I was
 reworking for a show were from Man of La Mancha

There were already some good suggestions on the list. To get the automatic 
beaming correct, you'll probably need to use another trick: You have to change 
the time signature for each measure, but you simply hide the time signature.

Attached is a (documented) example of a score with measures alternating 
irregularly between 2/4 and 3/4.

HTH,
Reinhold
-- 
--
Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial  Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria
 * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886
 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org

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Re: Compound time signature

[Reinhold Kainhofer]

Am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2011, 13:13:04 schrieb Reinhold Kainhofer:
 Am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2011, 07:58:39 schrieb Paul Scott:
  No.  I need for example:
  
  3/4 6/8 3/4 bar barline 6/8 bar barline 3/4 bar barline 6/8
  bar barline etc.
  
  A classic example is America from West Side Story  The parts I was
  reworking for a show were from Man of La Mancha
 
 There were already some good suggestions on the list. To get the automatic
 beaming correct, you'll probably need to use another trick: You have to
 change the time signature for each measure, but you simply hide the time
 signature.
 
 Attached is a (documented) example of a score with measures alternating
 irregularly between 2/4 and 3/4.

And here it is for real...
Cheers,
Reinhold

PS: Maybe such a snippet could be added to the documentation?

-- 
--
Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial  Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria
 * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886
 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org
mySig = {
  % don't print any subsequent time signatures
  % Note: User Score.TimeSignature, so it affects also all other staves
  \override Score.TimeSignature #'stencil = ##f

  % Format the alternating time sigs as two fractions
  #(define (compound-time one two three four)
   (markup #:override '(baseline-skip . 0) #:number 
(#:line ((#:column (one three)) #:vcenter  (#:column (two four))
 
  %% Force the display of the two fractions for just this one moment (you 
  %% need to use a \time command right after \mySig!), all further time 
  %% signature changes will not be printed (but the measure length and the 
  %% beaming WILL be adjusted accordingly)
  \once \override Score.TimeSignature #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
  \once \override Score.TimeSignature #'text = #(compound-time 2 3 4 4 )
}

\score { 
\new Staff \relative c'' { \mySig \time 2/4 c2 \time 3/4 d2. \time 2/4 e2 f g \time 3/4 b2. c \time 2/4 c2~ c }
\new Staff \relative c' { \mySig \time 2/4 c2 \time 3/4 d2. \time 2/4 e2 f g \time 3/4 b2. c \time 2/4 c2~ c }
% It suffices to make the time signature changes in one voice, all others
% will be affected (but of course, explicitly adding the changes makes
% reading the lilypond code much easier, so I would still recommend it)
\new Staff \relative c' { c2 d2. e2 f g b2. c c2~ c }
  
}


alternating_timesig.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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RE: Compound time signature

[James Lowe]

Reinhold,

)-Original Message-
)From: Reinhold Kainhofer [mailto:reinh...@kainhofer.com]
)Sent: 01 June 2011 12:15
)To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
)Cc: Paul Scott; James Lowe
)Subject: Re: Compound time signature
)
)Am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2011, 13:13:04 schrieb Reinhold Kainhofer:
) Am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2011, 07:58:39 schrieb Paul Scott:
)  No.  I need for example:
) 
)  3/4 6/8 3/4 bar barline 6/8 bar barline 3/4 bar barline
)  6/8
)  bar barline etc.
) 
)  A classic example is America from West Side Story  The parts I
)  was reworking for a show were from Man of La Mancha
)
) There were already some good suggestions on the list. To get the
) automatic beaming correct, you'll probably need to use another trick:
) You have to change the time signature for each measure, but you simply
) hide the time signature.
)
) Attached is a (documented) example of a score with measures
) alternating irregularly between 2/4 and 3/4.
)
)And here it is for real...
)Cheers,
)Reinhold
)
)PS: Maybe such a snippet could be added to the documentation?
[James' reply:] 
Why not add it to the LSR anyway?

Then suggest a place you think the snippet could go in the doc. I'd be happy to 
add it if people think it useful.

James

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Re: Compound time signature

[Paul Scott]

On 05/02/2011 02:55 AM, James Lowe wrote:

Paul,

)-Original Message-
)From: lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org
)[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org] On
)Behalf Of Paul Scott
)Sent: 01 May 2011 20:15
)To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
)Subject: Re: Compound time signature
)
)On 04/30/2011 10:24 AM, Thomas Scharkowski wrote:
)  Hi,
)
)I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:
)
)Is there a way to generate a (complex?) time signature that indicates bars
)alternating between two different time signatures?  I have seen this in
)several band pieces as well as the score for Man of La Mancha.  A
)common one is 3/4 6/8 but I an example of 3/4 4/4.
)


http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=261

Does that do what you want?

or

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743

for another option.

also this

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=395


No.  I need for example:

3/4 6/8 3/4 bar barline 6/8 bar barline 3/4 bar barline 6/8 
bar barline etc.


A classic example is America from West Side Story  The parts I was 
reworking for a show were from Man of La Mancha


Thanks,

Paul




James




--
Paul Scott
Librarian
Southern Arizona Symphony Orchestra



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RE: Compound time signature

[James Lowe]

Paul,

)-Original Message-
)From: lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org
)[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+james.lowe=datacore@gnu.org] On
)Behalf Of Paul Scott
)Sent: 01 May 2011 20:15
)To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
)Subject: Re: Compound time signature
)
)On 04/30/2011 10:24 AM, Thomas Scharkowski wrote:
) Hi,
)
)   I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:
)
)Is there a way to generate a (complex?) time signature that indicates bars
)alternating between two different time signatures?  I have seen this in
)several band pieces as well as the score for Man of La Mancha.  A
)common one is 3/4 6/8 but I an example of 3/4 4/4.
)


http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=261

Does that do what you want?

or

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743

for another option.

also this

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=395


James

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Re: Compound time signature

[Thomas Scharkowski]

Thanks, I had searched the doc for Compound time signature, but not 
far enough ;-)


Thomas



 Original-Nachricht 


Am Samstag, 30. April 2011, um 19:45:54 schrieb Phil Holmes:

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Scharkowskit.scharkow...@t-online.de

   I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:


Is this any help?:

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743


I should mention that in the 2.3.x releases, \compoundMeter (an improved
version of the snippet) is actually part of lilypond itself. So you don't have
to do anything manually any more. Simply look at the manual for a proper
documentation.

Chees,
Reinhold



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Re: Compound time signature

[Thomas Scharkowski]

...and could I get rid of the + \compondMeter uses somehow?

Thomas

 Original-Nachricht 


Thanks, I had searched the doc for Compound time signature, but not
far enough ;-)

Thomas



 Original-Nachricht 


Am Samstag, 30. April 2011, um 19:45:54 schrieb Phil Holmes:

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Scharkowskit.scharkow...@t-online.de

I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:


Is this any help?:

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743


I should mention that in the 2.3.x releases, \compoundMeter (an improved
version of the snippet) is actually part of lilypond itself. So you don't have
to do anything manually any more. Simply look at the manual for a proper
documentation.

Chees,
Reinhold



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Re: Compound time signature

[Paul Scott]

On 04/30/2011 10:24 AM, Thomas Scharkowski wrote:

Hi,

  I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:


Is there a way to generate a (complex?) time signature that indicates 
bars alternating between two different time signatures?  I have seen 
this in several band pieces as well as the score for Man of La 
Mancha.  A common one is 3/4 6/8 but I an example of 3/4 4/4.


Thanks,

Paul Scott




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Compound time signature

[Thomas Scharkowski]

Hi,

  I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:

--
\once \override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
   \once \override Staff.TimeSignature #'text =
   \markup {
 \override #'( baseline-skip . 0 )
  %%%   \hspace #2
 \number {
   \center-column {\line {3 2 3 } 8 }
 }
   }
--

The first number touches the clef, so I used \hspace to shift it to the 
right - but then the 8 jumps down one space.

Any hints appreciated.

Thomas

LilyPond 2.13.60
Kubuntu 10.10

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Re: Compound time signature

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Scharkowski t.scharkow...@t-online.de

To: lilypond-user lilypond-user@gnu.org
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 6:24 PM
Subject: Compound time signature



Hi,

  I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:

--
\once \override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
   \once \override Staff.TimeSignature #'text =
   \markup {
 \override #'( baseline-skip . 0 )
  %%%   \hspace #2
 \number {
   \center-column {\line {3 2 3 } 8 }
 }
   }
--

The first number touches the clef, so I used \hspace to shift it to the 
right - but then the 8 jumps down one space.

Any hints appreciated.

Thomas

LilyPond 2.13.60
Kubuntu 10.10


Is this any help?:

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743


--
Phil Holmes



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Re: Compound time signature

[Reinhold Kainhofer]

Am Samstag, 30. April 2011, um 19:45:54 schrieb Phil Holmes:
 - Original Message -
 From: Thomas Scharkowski t.scharkow...@t-online.de
I try to print a compound time signature using this construction:
 
 Is this any help?:
 
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=743

I should mention that in the 2.3.x releases, \compoundMeter (an improved 
version of the snippet) is actually part of lilypond itself. So you don't have 
to do anything manually any more. Simply look at the manual for a proper 
documentation.

Chees,
Reinhold
-- 
--
Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial  Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria
 * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886
 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org

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Force end measure with compound time signature

[alb84]

Here is my problem

http://old.nabble.com/file/p31425579/Gloria_Pagina_4.png 

I'm reporting the code of the bass part

\bar ||
%\key g \major

#(set-time-signature 13 4 '(3 4 3 3))
\override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = #(custom-time-signature 3 
4
3 3 4)

\partial 4 c,4 |
g'2 g4
a f g e
f d g
c, c c |
b( a) b
c( e) fis g
fis d c
b d e |
d2( e4)
f d e( c)
d b g'
e d e |
d2.
e4( fis) g( d)
c d d
e d d |
\set measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 6 4) 
d2.
d2.\fermata |
\bar ||

\time 4/4
e1( |
d2 c) |
d1\fermata |

\bar |.

I'd like to stop the measure before the Amen and reset the time signature to
4/4 but I don't know how...

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Re: Force end measure with compound time signature

[alb84]

Solved like this

#(set-time-signature 3 4)
\override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = ##f

and then


#(set-time-signature 4 4)
\override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = ##f

Here the result

http://old.nabble.com/file/p31426772/Gloria_Pagina_4.png 
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Compound time signature in early music

[M. E.]

As I don't know Scheme very well I need assistance with this problem


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Re: Compound time signature in early music

[James Bailey]

On 17.01.2010, at 20:30, M. E. wrote:


As I don't know Scheme very well I need assistance with this problem


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This is a wonderful example of a bad question. (In fact, it isn't a  
question at all.) It lacks context, anyone attempting to help you  
will need more information. Have you read http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/ 
smart-questions.html ? It's not a very long read, and the topics it  
covers are very useful. The few things I would say to you are:
1) Read the Learning Manual once through. It's not very long, and  
it's a very useful tool to understanding how to get what you want out  
of lilypond.
2) do a quick search on the mailing list archive at http:// 
lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/ for your topic. The default  
search is by score, but I find reverse chronological order to usually  
be more helpful.


After all that is done:

1) Ask a question (not simply a statement of need)
2) when asking your question, make it specific. As this is a  
volunteer program, you're more likely to be helped if you help  
yourself. Tell us what you want to do, what you've tried, and what  
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Re: Compound time signature in early music

[M.E.]

Apologies for the earlier errant message; most of the original  
message disappeared in transit it seems.


As I don't know Scheme very well, I need assistance with the  
following problem.  I would like to create a compound time signature,  
but with one of the columns consisting only of a time signature  
symbol rather than a pair of numbers e.g., C 6/2.  I'm aware of the  
example in the LSR and one written to this list by Valentin some time  
ago:


http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-01/msg00623.html

However, these are limited to numerated time signatures only.  Any  
help with my grob mystery would be appreciated.


Mark


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Re: compound time signature with split measure

[Mats Bengtsson]

Ideally, LilyPond should support all possible notations that anybody 
ever want to use. :-)

Seriously, the Tips and Tricks document contains an example
compound-time.ly, which provides a small function to typeset
time signatures of the form 6/8 + 5/8. If you or anybody else comes up 
with a similar function to simplify time
signatures of the style 6+5/8, then feel free to send it to the mailing 
list and/or add it to the LilyPond Snippet Repository.


Since there have been so many speculations and hints but no specific 
answer to the original question, I provide one here

(I was hoping that somebody else would manage)

tsMarkup =\markup {
 \override #'(baseline-skip . 2) \number {
   \hspace #1.0 \center-align { \line { 2 + 3 } 4 }
 }
}

The rest of the example can be taken from the one in the manual.

 /Mats

  /Mats
Quoting Dave K. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Well, then you have to figure out how to typeset the
time signature you want, using text markup.


Is this really ideal? Wouldn't it be better for Lilypond to be able to
typeset these kinds of time signatures? They're not as uncommon as you
might think.

There are several styles:

6+5 / 8

6/8 + 5/8

Sometimes measures with the same number of beats might need mixed time
signatures:

6/8 + 3/4

etc.


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Re: compound time signature with split measure

[David Feuer]

On 4/9/06, Mats Bengtsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ideally, LilyPond should support all possible notations that anybody
 ever want to use. :-)
 Seriously, the Tips and Tricks document contains an example
 compound-time.ly, which provides a small function to typeset
 time signatures of the form 6/8 + 5/8. If you or anybody else comes up
 with a similar function to simplify time
 signatures of the style 6+5/8

If Lilypond supported compound time signatures, how they were printed
would be purely a matter of style.

David


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Re: compound time signature with split measure

[Mats Bengtsson]

Please always remember - there are two main methods to get a specific 
feature added to LilyPond, either implement it yourself or sponsor 
Han-Wen to do it.


As far as I can remember, this was the first time over the 10
years that LilyPond has existed, that anybody has requested the 6+5/8 
layout. I think it's great that LilyPond is able
to typeset it anyway, using the relatively easy solution I sent earlier 
today. Don't you agree?


 /Mats

Quoting David Feuer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


On 4/9/06, Mats Bengtsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ideally, LilyPond should support all possible notations that anybody
ever want to use. :-)
Seriously, the Tips and Tricks document contains an example
compound-time.ly, which provides a small function to typeset
time signatures of the form 6/8 + 5/8. If you or anybody else comes up
with a similar function to simplify time
signatures of the style 6+5/8


If Lilypond supported compound time signatures, how they were printed
would be purely a matter of style.

David


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Re: compound time signature with split measure

[Kieren Richard MacMillan]

Hi, Mats:


I think it's great that LilyPond is able to typeset it anyway,
using the relatively easy solution I sent earlier today. Don't you  
agree?


I know *I* do!  =)

Thanks for the tip -- I rolled it in with the docs example, and it  
works perfectly.


Best,
Kieren.



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compound time signature with split measure

[Kieren Richard MacMillan]

[ Lilypond 2.8 ; Mac OS X ]


Hello, all!

What's the easiest way to engrave a compound time signature (CTS)  
like 2+3 / 4 and split the measure (i.e., with a dotted barline)?


Unfortunately, the example CTS hack outputs 2/4 + 3/4 (not what I  
want), and if I have to hack the measure split every time I have a  
measure with a CTS (e.g., by having two measures and manually  
managing the bar numbering), it might just drive me insane.  =)


Thanks!
Kieren.


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Re: compound time signature with split measure

[Mats Bengtsson]

Kieren Richard MacMillan wrote:


[ Lilypond 2.8 ; Mac OS X ]


Hello, all!

What's the easiest way to engrave a compound time signature (CTS)  
like 2+3 / 4 and split the measure (i.e., with a dotted barline)?


Unfortunately, the example CTS hack outputs 2/4 + 3/4 (not what I  
want),


Well, then you have to figure out how to typeset the
time signature you want, using text markup.

and if I have to hack the measure split every time I have a  measure 
with a CTS (e.g., by having two measures and manually  managing the 
bar numbering), it might just drive me insane.  =)



The bar numbering shouldn't be any problem, since if you
insert a \bar :, it won't affect the bar numbering.
Just make sure to use \time 5/4.

If you want to insert a dotted bar line in a sequence of
10 bars, just use something like
 \repeat unfold {s2 \bar : s2. }
 { the actual music ... }


  /Mats


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Re: compound time signature with split measure

[Dave K.]

 Well, then you have to figure out how to typeset the
 time signature you want, using text markup.

Is this really ideal? Wouldn't it be better for Lilypond to be able to
typeset these kinds of time signatures? They're not as uncommon as you
might think.

There are several styles:

6+5 / 8

6/8 + 5/8

Sometimes measures with the same number of beats might need mixed time
signatures:

6/8 + 3/4

etc.


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Re: compound time signature with split measure

[Kieren Richard MacMillan]

Hi, Mats:


The bar numbering shouldn't be any problem, since if you
insert a \bar :, it won't affect the bar numbering.


Good to know -- thanks!
Kieren.



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Re: compound time signature with split measure

[Graham Percival]

On 8-Apr-06, at 12:38 PM, Dave K. wrote:


Well, then you have to figure out how to typeset the
time signature you want, using text markup.


Is this really ideal? Wouldn't it be better for Lilypond to be able to
typeset these kinds of time signatures? They're not as uncommon as you
might think.


Yes, it would be better for Lilypond to support these.  Unfortunately, 
adding new features is not simply a matter of saying yes, it would be 
nice if we had X.  If you are interested in this feature, please 
contact Han-Wen about sponsoring it, or submit a patch which adds this 
functionality.


Cheers,
- Graham



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