Fine tuning

[Dr. Bernhard Kleine]

I have prepared the Sanctus of the Missa in C by Bruckner. There are some
points that need fine tuning. 

 

1.  The piece should fit to one page.

2.  The markups Ruhig should be on Top of Sanctus

3.  The voisce nominator Ten. and Bass in Number 4 should be in front of
the notes and texts, same in 8.

 

It would be very niece if some could point me to the ways to change these
issues.

 

Thank you very much

 

Bernhard

\version "2.19.5"
\language "deutsch"
\header {
  title = "Messe in C"
  subtitle = "für Chor und Orgel"
  composer = "Anton Bruckner"
  arranger = "bearb. v. Jos. Messner"
  piece = "Sanctus"
  tagline = \markup {
Gesetzt durch Bernhard Kleine mit 
\line { LilyPond \simple #(lilypond-version) (http://lilypond.org/) }
  }
}

global = {
  \key c \major
  \time 4/4
}

soprano = \relative c'' {
  \global
  \dynamicUp
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  e2^\markup { Ruhig }\p e2| d (e) | d h2\rest | f'^\markup { Ten. } e~\> | e4\! e2\< ( d4 |
  c2\! d)\> | e\! h\rest | h4.^\markup {Sopr.} h8 h2 | a\< h\! | a2.\> a4  |
  gis1\fermata | gis2^-\!\f gis4^- gis^- | a2^- a4 \breathe a | a2 (gis2) |
  \override BreathingSign.text = \markup {
\musicglyph #"scripts.caesura.straight"
  } a \breathe a~\ff |
  a g4 f | e2 (d) |e4 \breathe e\p e e | f2 <> | f2\pp\> e\! \bar"|."


}

sopranoTwo = \relative c'' {
  \global
  \dynamicUp \shiftOff
  \stemUp c2 c2| h (c) | h s2| \stemDown \dynamicDown d2\p \tieDown c~ |c4 \slurDown c2 (h4|
  a2 h) | c2 s2
}
alto = \relative c' {
  \global
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  c2 ( e4) f| g2 (e4 c) \shiftOff g2 s2|
  s1*4 |
  h4._\markup {Alt} e8 gis2 | e2 e | e2. e4 |
  e1 | e2 e4 e4 |e2 e4  e4| e1 | e2 f2~ | f c4 c | c2 (h) | d4 c c c | c2 c2 | c2 c

}

altoTwo = \relative c' {
  \global \shiftOff
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  g'2 \shiftOn g2| g1| \shiftOff g2
}

tenor = \relative c' {
  \global \dynamicUp
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  d,1\rest | d1\rest |d1\rest | g1| g2 gis( |
  a2. g!8 f) | g2 d2\rest | gis4.^\markup {Tenor} gis8 h2| c2 h | c2. c4 |
  h1\fermata | h2 h4 h | c2 a4 \breathe c | h1 | c2 c~|
  c h!4 a| g2~ g | g4 \breathe g\< c\! b | a2 g | a g |
}

tenorTwo =  \relative c' {
  \global \dynamicUp

}
bass = \relative c {
  \global
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  s1 s1 s1 h2_\markup {Bass}( << c4 { s8 s8\>} >> d4)| e2\! e\< ( |
  <> e8\> d) | c2\! s2 | e4._\markup {Bass} e8 e2| a\< gis\! |a2.\> a4 |
  << e1 {s2. s8 s8\!} e,1>> | e'2\f e4 e | e2 << e4 c4>> <> | <> |
  \override BreathingSign.text = \markup {
\musicglyph #"scripts.caesura.straight"
  }  2 \breathe  f~\ff|
  f2 f4 f4 | g2  g,| c4 c\p c c | f2 d |f\pp\>  c\!|
}

bassTwo =  \relative c' {
  \global
}
verse = \lyricmode {
  % Liedtext folgt hier.

}

verseSoprano = \lyricmode {
  San -- ctus,  San -- ctus,
  San -- ctus,  San -- ctus,
  
}

verseAlto = \lyricmode {
San -- ctus,  San -- ctus,
  Do -- mi -- nus De  -- us Sa -- ba -- oth.
  Ple -- ni sunt coe -- li et ter -- ra glo -- ri -- a tu -- a.
  ho -- san -- na in ex -- cel -- sis
}

verseTenor = \lyricmode {
  San -- ctus,  San -- ctus
}

verseBasso = \lyricmode {
  San -- ctus,  San -- ctus
}


rightOne = \relative c'' {
  \global
  \shiftOnn
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  h1\rest | h1\rest |h4\rest g,4\pp( h4 d8 e |f2 e4) h'4\rest | h1\rest
  h1\rest | h4\rest c,4 ( e\< g8 a\! | h2) h4\rest gis4 | < a c, >2  h | a4( c e4. fis8) |
  gis1\fermata | h,4\rest e,8\f( gis h4. e8) | h4\rest a8( c e4. a8) | h,4\rest h,8(e gis h e4) |
  \override BreathingSign.text = \markup {
\musicglyph #"scripts.caesura.straight"
  }  h2\rest  \breathe a4 ( c|
  f2 c4 a) | g8( a h c d2 | c4) \breathe g ( c b | a f c) g'^\markup { \italic rit.} a8 f a h! c2
}


rightTwo = \relative c' {
  \global
  \shiftOnn \stemDown
  s1|s1|s2 h4 h4| d2 c4 s4 s1|s1 s4 g2 ( c4| e2) s4 e8\mf d8 | s2 e2 | e a |
  gis1 | s1 | s1| s1| s2 f2 | a g4 f4 | e2 g4 f4 | e r\p h2\rest | s2. c4~ (| c f e2) |
}

leftOne = \relative c' {
  \global
  \dynamicUp% Die Noten folgen hier.
  s1*2 | d,4\rest g2.~ | g2~ g4 d4\rest |d1\rest |
  d1\rest d4\rest e2.( |gis2) d4\rest h'4 a2 gis4 fis8 gis8 | c2 c2|
  h1\fermata | d,4\rest \stemDown e8( gis h4. e8) | h4\rest a8( c e4. a8) | h,4\rest h,8(e gis h e4)

  \override BreathingSign.text = \markup {
\musicglyph #"scripts.caesura.straight"
  }  d,2\rest  \breathe  \stemUp c'4\ff a | c1 | c2 h c4 \breathe d,4\rest d2\rest | d2\rest d4\rest s4 s1|


}

leftTwo = \relative c {
  \global
  d1\rest d1\rest d4\rest g2. ( | h,2 c4) s4| s1 |
  s1| \break
  s4 c2. ( |e,2 ) s4 e4 | a, c e fis8 gis8| a2 a|
  e1 s1 s1 s1 | s2 f'2| f1 | g2 g | 4 s4 s2 | s2 s4 4( |< a f>2 2)|
}
leftThree = \rela

Re: Fine tuning

[Phil Holmes]

1.  With this font size, forcing it to one page causes collisions.  Look at:

#(set-global-staff-size 16)
\paper {
page-count=1
}

and adjust them to suit.

2.  I would set "Ruhig" as a tempo marking, which then places it appropriately.

3.  Place you markup after the spacer rests prior to the music.  If you want to 
adjust the horizontal position, you can subdivide the rests; e.g.:

s2. s4_"Markup"

HTH

--
Phil Holmes


  - Original Message - 
  From: Dr. Bernhard Kleine 
  To: lilypond-user@gnu.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:15 AM
  Subject: Fine tuning


  I have prepared the Sanctus of the Missa in C by Bruckner. There are some 
points that need fine tuning. 

   

  1.  The piece should fit to one page.

  2.  The markups Ruhig should be on Top of Sanctus

  3.  The voisce nominator Ten. and Bass in Number 4 should be in front of 
the notes and texts, same in 8.

   

  It would be very niece if some could point me to the ways to change these 
issues.

   

  Thank you very much

   

  Bernhard



--


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Re: Fine tuning

[Rutger Hofman]

On 05/21/2015 12:15 PM, Dr. Bernhard Kleine wrote:
[snip]

1.The piece should fit to one page.


Use a smaller point size: #(set-global-staff-size 17) for example. As a
last resort, the number of pages can be forced in the paper block:
\paper {
page-count = #1
}


2.The markups Ruhig should be on Top of Sanctus


Use \tempo\markup{Ruhig}


3.The voisce nominator Ten. and Bass in Number 4 should be in front
of the notes and texts, same in 8.


You might try \markup\right-align{Ten.}, or play with \halign -- see
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/formatting-text#text-alignment

Good luck,

Rutger


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AW: Fine tuning

[Dr. Bernhard Kleine]

Thank you and the other contributors very much,

 1.with set-global-staff-size 16 only one page
 2.the \tempo solved the other problem
 3.however,  halign  #0.5 does not make the proper horizontal orientation,
the four entries sopran , alto, tenor and bass are not vertically aligned.

Any idea?

Kind regards 
Bernhard

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lilypond-user-bounces+bernhard.kleine=gmx@gnu.org
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+bernhard.kleine=gmx@gnu.org] Im Auftrag
von Rutger Hofman
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2015 12:59
An: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Betreff: Re: Fine tuning

On 05/21/2015 12:15 PM, Dr. Bernhard Kleine wrote:
[snip]
> 1.The piece should fit to one page.

Use a smaller point size: #(set-global-staff-size 17) for example. As a
last resort, the number of pages can be forced in the paper block:
\paper {
page-count = #1
}

> 2.The markups Ruhig should be on Top of Sanctus

Use \tempo\markup{Ruhig}

> 3.The voisce nominator Ten. and Bass in Number 4 should be in front
> of the notes and texts, same in 8.

You might try \markup\right-align{Ten.}, or play with \halign -- see
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/formatting-text#text-al
ignment

Good luck,

Rutger


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\version "2.19.5"
\language "deutsch"
 #(set-global-staff-size 16) 
\header {
  title = "Messe in C"
  subtitle = "für Chor und Orgel"
  composer = "Anton Bruckner"
  arranger = "bearb. v. Jos. Messner"
  piece = "Sanctus"
  tagline = \markup {
Gesetzt durch Bernhard Kleine mit 
\line { LilyPond \simple #(lilypond-version) (http://lilypond.org/) }
  }
}

global = {
  \key c \major
  \time 4/4
}

soprano = \relative c'' {
  \global
  \dynamicUp
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
 \tempo\markup { Ruhig } e2\p e2| d (e) | d h2\rest | f'^\markup {\halign #0.5 Ten. } e~\> | e4\! e2\< ( d4 |
  c2\! d)\> | e\! h\rest | h4.^\markup {\halign #0.5 Sopr.} h8 h2 | a\< h\! | a2.\> a4  |
  gis1\fermata | gis2^-\!\f gis4^- gis^- | a2^- a4 \breathe a | a2 (gis2) |
  \override BreathingSign.text = \markup {
\musicglyph #"scripts.caesura.straight"
  } a \breathe a~\ff |
  a g4 f | e2 (d) |e4 \breathe e\p e e | f2 <> | f2\pp\> e\! \bar"|."


}

sopranoTwo = \relative c'' {
  \global
  \dynamicUp \shiftOff
  \stemUp c2 c2| h (c) | h s2| \stemDown \dynamicDown d2\p \tieDown c~ |c4 \slurDown c2 (h4|
  a2 h) | c2 s2
}
alto = \relative c' {
  \global
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  c2 ( e4) f| g2 (e4 c) \shiftOff g2 s2|
  s1*4 |
  h4._\markup {\halign #0.5 Alt} e8 gis2 | e2 e | e2. e4 |
  e1 | e2 e4 e4 |e2 e4  e4| e1 | e2 f2~ | f c4 c | c2 (h) | d4 c c c | c2 c2 | c2 c

}

altoTwo = \relative c' {
  \global \shiftOff
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  g'2 \shiftOn g2| g1| \shiftOff g2
}

tenor = \relative c' {
  \global \dynamicUp
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  d,1\rest | d1\rest |d1\rest | g1| g2 gis( |
  a2. g!8 f) | g2 d2\rest | gis4.^\markup {\halign #0.5 Tenor} gis8 h2| c2 h | c2. c4 |
  h1\fermata | h2 h4 h | c2 a4 \breathe c | h1 | c2 c~|
  c h!4 a| g2~ g | g4 \breathe g\< c\! b | a2 g | a g |
}

tenorTwo =  \relative c' {
  \global \dynamicUp

}
bass = \relative c {
  \global
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  s1 s1 s1 h2_\markup {\halign #0.5 Bass}( << c4 { s8 s8\>} >> d4)| e2\! e\< ( |
  <> e8\> d) | c2\! s2 | e4._\markup {\halign #0.5 Bass} e8 e2| a\< gis\! |a2.\> a4 |
  << e1 {s2. s8 s8\!} e,1>> | e'2\f e4 e | e2 << e4 c4>> <> | <> |
  \override BreathingSign.text = \markup {
\musicglyph #"scripts.caesura.straight"
  }  2 \breathe  f~\ff|
  f2 f4 f4 | g2  g,| c4 c\p c c | f2 d |f\pp\>  c\!|
}

bassTwo =  \relative c' {
  \global
}
verse = \lyricmode {
  % Liedtext folgt hier.

}

verseSoprano = \lyricmode {
  San -- ctus,  San -- ctus,
  San -- ctus,  San -- ctus,
  
}

verseAlto = \lyricmode {
San -- ctus,  San -- ctus,
  Do -- mi -- nus De  -- us Sa -- ba -- oth.
  Ple -- ni sunt coe -- li et ter -- ra glo -- ri -- a tu -- a.
  ho -- san -- na in ex -- cel -- sis
}

verseTenor = \lyricmode {
  San -- ctus,  San -- ctus
}

verseBasso = \lyricmode {
  San -- ctus,  San -- ctus
}


rightOne = \relative c'' {
  \global
  \shiftOnn
  % Die Noten folgen hier.
  h1\rest | h1\rest |h4\rest g,4\pp( h4 d8 e |f2 e4) h'4\rest | h1\rest
  h1\rest | h4\rest c,4 ( e\< g8 a\! | h2) h4\rest gis4 | < a c, >2  h | a4( c e4. fis8) |
  gis1\fermata | h,4\rest e,8\f( gis h4. e8) | h4\rest a8( c e4. a8) | h,4\rest h,8(e gis h e4) |
  \override BreathingSign.text = \markup {
\musicglyph #"scripts.caesura.straight"
  }  h2\rest  \breathe a4 ( c|
  f2 c4 a) | g8( a h c d2 | c4) \breathe g (

Re: Fine tuning

[Simon Albrecht]

Hello Bernhard,

some more remarks from me:
– Generally, I wouldn’t go for one page at any cost. I understand your 
wish, but it would be easier to read if the choir were on four staves. 
And that’s what the great 19th century complete works editions used to 
do. Also, your current setup throws warnings because of the first bars 
of soprano and alto: either use \voiceThree and \voiceFour (look for 
"temporary polyphonic section" in the NR), or write both soprano parts 
as chords in one voice (), or move the alto parts to the lower staff.

– Use R1 instead of r1.
– m.9, organ: there is no a,, on all but a very few organs
– m.11, bass: is the e, intentional?
– m.17, tenor should be one whole note
– m.18, inconsistent breathing sign. How about
Breathe = \tweak text \markup \musicglyph #"scripts.caesura.straight" ?
– m.19, bass, 2nd note should be e
– I’d use only one lyrics context, also for the first line. The 
differences between voices are small, and through the slurs it’s 
unambiguous. I think every choir singer should be able to cope with 
that, and they will, if it’s explained to them :-)
– Organ part: use chords wherever possible (instead of two voices), 
except for what will likely be the pedal part.

– m.12, organ: missing \oneVoice here
– Experiment with slur direction (i.e. ^( and _( ), e.g. m.18f., organ


Am 21.05.2015 um 13:43 schrieb Dr. Bernhard Kleine:

Thank you and the other contributors very much,

  1.with set-global-staff-size 16 only one page
  2.the \tempo solved the other problem
  3.however,  halign  #0.5 does not make the proper horizontal orientation,
the four entries sopran , alto, tenor and bass are not vertically aligned.

Any idea?
Try for example c2-\tweak self-alignment-X 0.8 _\markup "Tenor" (play 
with the value).
There is no way to really align them, so you’d have to do it manually. 
But why would you need to?


HTH, Simon

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fine-tuning Lyrics size

[Werner LEMBERG]

Folks,


using 

  \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-1

to make the lyrics smaller is too coarse for me.  In my particular
case, there is both Italian lyrics and a German translation (using a
cursive font shape), and I have to make the cursive text just a bit
smaller.  AFAIK, LilyPond converts all font sizes into discrete steps
(6 steps is a factor of two).  How can I circumvent that?


Werner

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Fine tuning of MetronomeMark's expression

[Paolo Prete]

Hello,

Given:

\tempo \markup {\abs-fontsize #16 \bold "Allegro" } 4 = 120 c'

Is there a way, for the above metronome indication " (quarter = 120) "  of
the above MetronomeMark to apply the same font parameters (\abs-fontsize,
\bold etc.) specified in the \markup expression?

Thanks!

P

Diatonic accordion score fine-tuning

[Menu Jacques]

Hello folks,

I've modified the AccordionPushSpanner example supplied by someone on this list 
(can't find who it was, unfortunately), giving the attached file and the score :


How can I tune the settings to align the bar lines lower tips with the single 
staff line, and hide the dots in the repeat bar lines, in a way similar to:


The small vertical lines would be nice to have too.

Thanks for your help!
 
JM



AccordionPushSpannerExample.ly
Description: Binary data


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Re: Fine-tuning footer alignment

[Jean Abou Samra]

\version "2.25.13"

\header {
  copyright = \markup {
\general-align #Y #DOWN \left-column {
  \line{© Cameron Horsburgh. This work is licensed under}
  \line{CC BY-ND 4.0. To view a copy of this license, visit }
  \line {https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0}
}
  }
  tagline = \markup {
\general-align #Y #DOWN \right-column {
  \line{Check out LilyPond at}
  \line{www.lilypond.org}
}
\hspace #2
\general-align #Y #DOWN \override #'(quiet-zone-size . 0) \qr-code #10.0 
"https://www.lilypond.org";

  }
}

\score {
  \relative c{
c'4 c c c
  }
  \layout {
  }
}

\paper {
  oddFooterMarkup = \markup {
\fill-line {
  \fromproperty #'header:copyright
  \fromproperty #'header:tagline
}
  }
}



HTH
Jean



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Fine-tuning footer alignment

[Cameron Horsburgh]

Hi Jean,

Thanks so much for that. It works perfectly! I did see \general-align in
the docs, but it didn't immediately jump out at me as what I needed. Thanks
for helping me out!


Cameron Horsburgh



On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 at 16:22, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:

> \version "2.25.13"
>
> \header {
>   copyright = \markup {
> \general-align #Y #DOWN \left-column {
>   \line{© Cameron Horsburgh. This work is licensed under}
>   \line{CC BY-ND 4.0. To view a copy of this license, visit }
>   \line {https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0}
> }
>   }
>   tagline = \markup {
> \general-align #Y #DOWN \right-column {
>   \line{Check out LilyPond at}
>   \line{www.lilypond.org}
> }
> \hspace #2
> \general-align #Y #DOWN \override #'(quiet-zone-size . 0) \qr-code
> #10.0 "https://www.lilypond.org";
>
>   }
> }
>
> \score {
>   \relative c{
> c'4 c c c
>   }
>   \layout {
>   }
> }
>
> \paper {
>   oddFooterMarkup = \markup {
> \fill-line {
>   \fromproperty #'header:copyright
>   \fromproperty #'header:tagline
> }
>   }
> }
>
>
>
> HTH
> Jean
>
>

negative spaces for fine tuning?

[Denis . Roegel]

Hi,

the music layout can be changed by adding rests such as s4,
but is it possible to include some negative spaces?

Thanks,

Denis



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Fine-tuning of markup positions

[Marc Hohl]

Hello,

I have some kind of ornamental "matrix"

a b c
d e f
g h i

I want to display at the end of each \bookpart
(I use different symbols, but this doesn't matter here).

The matrix should be placed centered, and in order to align the
symbols properly,I defined

matrix = \markup {
 \override #'(baseline-skip . 2.2)
 \column { \override #'(line-width . 6.5)
   \fill-line {  a b c }
   \override #'(line-width . 6.5)
   \fill-line { d e f }
   \override #'(line-width . 6.5)
   \fill-line { g h i }
 }
}

and used it via

\markup {
 \fill-line { \matrix }
}

So far, so good; but for the symbols I use, I need some fine-tuning of 
the distances
between b/c and  h/i. In the first case, the symbols should be narrower, 
in the

latter case, I need a small additional space between them.

Inserting a negative \hspace in the first line, for example

 \fill-line { a b \hspace #-1 c }

doesn't have the desired effect.

\translate with negative coordinates doesn't work either.

Is there a different approach I can use?

Thanks in advance

Marc


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Re: fine-tuning Lyrics size

[Alexander Kobel]

On 2010-10-20 13:48, Werner LEMBERG wrote:

Folks,


using

   \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-1

to make the lyrics smaller is too coarse for me.


Hi, Werner,

sorry if I misunderstood you - the solution just seems to obvious to 
imagine that you could not have found it.
You can use decimal values (well, actually every real value if you 
really want to), and the default 'font-size for Lyrics is 1, not 0 (as 
would be expected).


Of course, you're the font guy; it's no news for you that exploiting 
x-heights and so on would be nice, but we're not there yet...



HTH,
Alexander

{ c'4 c' c' c' }
\addlyrics { Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.9 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.8 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #(sqrt (/ 1. 2)) Uh la la 
la }

\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.7 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.6 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.5 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.4 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.3 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.2 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.1 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.0 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.1 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.2 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.3 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.4 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.5 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.6 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.7 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.8 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.9 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-1.0 Uh la la la }

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Re: fine-tuning Lyrics size

[Werner LEMBERG]

> sorry if I misunderstood you - the solution just seems to obvious to
> imagine that you could not have found it.  You can use decimal
> values (well, actually every real value if you really want to), and
> the default 'font-size for Lyrics is 1, not 0 (as would be
> expected).

Doh, I've tried that, but I've erroneously assumed that the default
size is #0.  No wonder that I get a big jump if I try #-0.5 ...

Thanks for the help.

> Of course, you're the font guy; it's no news for you that exploiting
> x-heights and so on would be nice, but we're not there yet...

:-)


Werner

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Re: fine-tuning Lyrics size

[Valentin Villenave]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Alexander Kobel  wrote:
> You can use decimal values (well, actually every real value if you really
> want to), and the default 'font-size for Lyrics is 1, not 0 (as would be
> expected).

> { c'4 c' c' c' }
> \addlyrics { Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.9 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.8 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #(sqrt (/ 1. 2)) Uh la la la}
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.7 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.6 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.5 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.4 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.3 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.2 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.1 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.0 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.1 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.2 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.3 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.4 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.5 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.6 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.7 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.8 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.9 Uh la la la }
> \addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-1.0 Uh la la la }

Best. Score. Ever. :-D

Have you considered adding it to the LSR? I think it would be quite
useful. If you do (maybe in a slightly shorter version :), please add
the tags "Vocal" and "docs"; Trevor and I are precisely working on
this section of the docs.

Cheers,
Valentin

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Re: fine-tuning Lyrics size

[James]

hello,

On 20/10/2010 22:10, Valentin Villenave wrote:

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Alexander Kobel  wrote:

You can use decimal values (well, actually every real value if you really
want to), and the default 'font-size for Lyrics is 1, not 0 (as would be
expected).



{ c'4 c' c' c' }
\addlyrics { Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.9 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.8 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #(sqrt (/ 1. 2)) Uh la la la}
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.7 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.6 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.5 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.4 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.3 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.2 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.1 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'0.0 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.1 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.2 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.3 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.4 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.5 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.6 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.7 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.8 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-0.9 Uh la la la }
\addlyrics { \override LyricText #'font-size = #'-1.0 Uh la la la }


Best. Score. Ever. :-D


I think I sat through this piece in a concert performed in a Town I live 
near over Christmas last year.


But it might be copyrighted by the Stockhausen estate too.

;)

James


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Chord sheet fine tuning problems

[John Sellers]

I am working up a series of chord sheets for myself and I have run into 
some page turning problems.  It seems very awkward with my limited 
knowledge to get good control over vertical spacing as well as getting 
page brakes in the right place.  What is the most systematic way to do 
this?  Is there a graceful way?

1) I don't know what is the cause of the vertical wasted space in my 
lead sheet design, or how to get any fine control over it, a complete 
sample file is shown below.
2) If the page break is at the end of the score, it is ignored and the 
two scores end up on the same page.
3) I don't know how to automatically put the correct version and date in 
the tagline.  Currently I am just hard coding it.

Any help will be appreciated.
---John
%-start 
code---
\renameinput "nomus.ly"
\paper  {
 printpagenumber = ##f
 raggedright = ##t
 raggedbottom = ##t
}
#(set-global-staff-size 23)
#(set-default-paper-size "letter")
\version "2.4.0"
init = {
   \set chordChanges = ##t
   \set ChordNames.minimumVerticalExtent = #'(-3 . 3)
   \set Score.barNumberVisibility = ##f
   \time 4/4
 }
thePaper = \layout{
   indent = 0
 \context{
 \ChordNames
 \override BarLine #'bar-size = #4
 \override BarLine #'hair-thickness = #3
 \override KeySignature
#'break-visibility = #all-invisible
 \consists Bar_engraver
 \consists Key_engraver
 \consists Time_signature_engraver
 }
   }

\book {
\header {
 texidoc = "Jazz Chordformat: chords and key."
 title = "Ballad Transposition Series 2-0"
 subtitle = "Chords Edited by JL"
 composer = "Standards in All Keys - Draft 1.0"
 arranger = "Engraved and Proofed by JS"
 dedication = "not for profit or assumption of rights"
 tagline = "Engraved by LilyPond, 2.4.2-1 - 12/29/04"
}
 \score{
   \context ChordNames
   \transpose bes bes {
   \key bes \major
   \init
   \chordmode {
 e4:7 d:7 ees2 e4:7 d:7 ees2 \break
 \set chordChanges = ##f
 ees1
 \set chordChanges = ##t
 f:7 f2:m ees:7 ees4 e f e ees1
   }
 }
   \layout { \thePaper }
   \midi{ \tempo 4 . = 110 }
   \header { piece = "Watch What Happens" }
 }
 \score{
   \context ChordNames
   \transpose bes bes {
   \key ees \major
   \init
   \chordmode {
 ees1:maj7 bes2:m7 ees:9 aes1:maj7 aes2:m7 des:9 g:m c:7 \break
 bes1:m ees:9 aes:maj7 aes:maj7 a2:m d:7 c:m f:7 bes1 bes:aug
   }
 }
   \layout { \thePaper }
   \midi{ \tempo 4 . = 110 }
   \header { piece = "Misty" }
 }
}
%-end 
code---

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Re: Fine tuning of MetronomeMark's expression

[Valentin Villenave]

On 6/19/20, Paolo Prete  wrote:
> Is there a way, for the above metronome indication " (quarter = 120) "  of
> the above MetronomeMark to apply the same font parameters (\abs-fontsize,
> \bold etc.) specified in the \markup expression?

Well, you can always redefine a Scheme function (see the definition of
metronome-markup in scm/translation-functions.scm)...  That being
said, it might be easier to go through an override instead of putting
stuff into the markup block:

{
  \override Score.MetronomeMark.font-size = #4
  \tempo  "Allegro" 4 = 120 c'
}

Cheers,
-- V.

Re: Fine tuning of MetronomeMark's expression

[Paolo Prete]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 10:44 PM Valentin Villenave 
wrote:

> On 6/19/20, Paolo Prete  wrote:
> > Is there a way, for the above metronome indication " (quarter = 120) "
> of
> > the above MetronomeMark to apply the same font parameters (\abs-fontsize,
> > \bold etc.) specified in the \markup expression?
>
> Well, you can always redefine a Scheme function (see the definition of
> metronome-markup in scm/translation-functions.scm)...  That being
> said, it might be easier to go through an override instead of putting
> stuff into the markup block:
>
> {
>   \override Score.MetronomeMark.font-size = #4
>   \tempo  "Allegro" 4 = 120 c'
> }
>
>
Hi Valentin,

Unfortunately:

1) \override Score.MetronomeMark affects the note symbol too (and this is
not good, because the note's font is different and should be independent of
the attributes of the remaining text).

2) The scheme function to be redefined seems to involve too much code to be
modified (I see there are (make-smaller-markup ...)
and (make-note-by-number-markup ...) ) where I have to put hands.

I could be wrong, but it seems that Lily's API for MetronomeMark hides
visible details (---> the metronome note) that should be overridable.
>From what I see, correct me again if I'm wrong, it is the name
MetronomeMark which is wrong and causes these problems to the API.
To be more precise, I think that what is currently called "MetronomeMark"
should be called "TempoMark", so to have something like:

TempoMark.text

AND

TempoMark.metronome

I'm going to open a ticket for this.
Meanwhile, is there a fix for the problem?
I just found Harm's override, but I still wonder if is there a
shorter/easier solution

http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/tempo-how-to-remove-parentheses-around-metronome-marks-td170530.html

Thanks for your help!

Best,
P

Re: Diatonic accordion score fine-tuning

[Menu Jacques]

Hello,

I’ve nearly reached my goal. Further attempts lead me to the following, using a 
GrandStaff and:

\override GrandStaff.SpanBar.glyph-name = "|"
\override Staff.BarLine.glyph-name = "'"

I can’t obtain a vertical short line at the left and right ends of the spanner 
yet though, since:

\override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.left.text =
\markup { \draw-line #'(0 . -3) }
\override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.right.text =
\markup { \draw-line #'(0 . 3) }

don’t make a change. That would be useful it seems.

Also, the thick parts of the repeat barlines don’t go down to the lower stave, 
but that is maybe less useful. Maybe diatonic accordion players on this list 
can comment on that. For the others, let’s mention that a thick line means « 
push » and that its absence means « draw ».

The next important step will be to convert the actual note pitches into the 
fingerings that should be displayed instead.

JM





AccordionPushSpannerExample.ly
Description: Binary data



> Le 27 mars 2018 à 13:16, Menu Jacques  a écrit :
> 
> Hello folks,
> 
> I've modified the AccordionPushSpanner example supplied by someone on this 
> list (can't find who it was, unfortunately), giving the attached file and the 
> score :
> 
> 
> How can I tune the settings to align the bar lines lower tips with the single 
> staff line, and hide the dots in the repeat bar lines, in a way similar to:
> 
> 
> The small vertical lines would be nice to have too.
> 
> Thanks for your help!
> 
> JM
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Diatonic accordion score fine-tuning

[Thomas Morley]

2018-03-30 18:25 GMT+02:00 Menu Jacques :
> Hello,
>
> I’ve nearly reached my goal. Further attempts lead me to the following, using 
> a GrandStaff and:
>
> \override GrandStaff.SpanBar.glyph-name = "|"
> \override Staff.BarLine.glyph-name = "'"
>
> I can’t obtain a vertical short line at the left and right ends of the 
> spanner yet though, since:
>
> \override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.left.text =
> \markup { \draw-line #'(0 . -3) }
> \override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.right.text =
> \markup { \draw-line #'(0 . 3) }
>
> don’t make a change. That would be useful it seems.
>
> Also, the thick parts of the repeat barlines don’t go down to the lower 
> stave, but that is maybe less useful. Maybe diatonic accordion players on 
> this list can comment on that. For the others, let’s mention that a thick 
> line means « push » and that its absence means « draw ».
>
> The next important step will be to convert the actual note pitches into the 
> fingerings that should be displayed instead.
>
> JM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Le 27 mars 2018 à 13:16, Menu Jacques  a écrit :
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I've modified the AccordionPushSpanner example supplied by someone on this 
>> list (can't find who it was, unfortunately), giving the attached file and 
>> the score :
>>
>> 
>> How can I tune the settings to align the bar lines lower tips with the 
>> single staff line, and hide the dots in the repeat bar lines, in a way 
>> similar to:
>>
>> 
>> The small vertical lines would be nice to have too.
>>
>> Thanks for your help!
>>
>> JM
>>
>> 
>>

Hi,

the original coding is by David Nalesnik
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-07/msg00541.html

Attached you'll find a revised version and an example. I recommend to
read the changelog in accordion.ily

To adjust the BarLines I'd simply set bar-extent to '(0 . 0) in the lower Staff.


HTH,
  Harm


accordion.ily
Description: Binary data
\version "2.19.81"

\include "accordion.ily"

%  EXAMPLE 


\header {
  title = "Diatonic accordion score example"
}

\layout {
  indent = 0\cm
  ragged-last = ##t
  \context {
\Global
\grobdescriptions #all-grob-descriptions
  }
  \context {
\Voice
\consists \accordionPushSpannerEngraver
  }
}

\new StaffGroup 
  \with { systemStartDelimiter = #'SystemStartBar }
  <<
  \new Lyrics 
\lyricmode {
  foo1 foo foo foo faa fii fee faa fuu
}

  \new Staff \with {
\remove "Clef_engraver"
\remove "Key_engraver"
  } {
f'1
g'1
e'1
f'1
g'1
e'4 f'2.
f'4 f'2.
f'1
f'4 f'2.
  }

  \new Lyrics
  \with {
associatedVoice = "P_PTwo_Staff_One_Voice_One"
  }
  \lyricmode {
F1 f F f |
C c \markup {
  \raise #1
  \center-column{"f" "F"}
} |
\markup{"B"\raise #1.5 \flat} |
F
  }

  \new Staff \with {
\remove "Clef_engraver"
\remove "Key_engraver"
\remove "Time_signature_engraver"
\override BarLine.bar-extent = #'(0 . 0)
\override StaffSymbol.line-count = 1
% Change vertical position of spanner.
\override AccordionPushSpanner.staff-padding = 0
\override AccordionPushSpanner.outside-staff-priority = #'()
  } {
\clef bass
\grace s1\startPush s1\startPull
s2\startPush s2
s1\startPull s1

\repeat volta 2 {
   s1\startPush
  s4 \startPull s2.
  s4 \startPush s2.
  \break
  s1
  s1 \startPull
}
  }
>>

%% Demonstrating possible overrides
\new Lyrics 
  \with { \consists \accordionPushSpannerEngraver } 
  \lyricmode {
"foo"2\startPush
"foo"\startPull

\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.thickness = 0.2
"foo"\startPush
"foo"\startPull


\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.thickness = 0.2
\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.details.wing-thickness = 1
"foo"\startPush
"foo"\startPull


\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.edge-height = #'(-2 . 2)
"foo"\startPush
"foo"\startPull

\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.direction = #-1
"foo"\startPush
"foo"\startPull

"foo"1
\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.left.padding = #-2
\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.right.padding = #-2
\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.left-broken.padding = #-2
\once \override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.right-broken.padding = 2
"foo"2\startPush
\break
"foo"
"foo"\startPull
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Re: Diatonic accordion score fine-tuning

[Menu Jacques]

Hello Harm,

Thanks for your help and thanks a lot to David for supplying this useful Scheme 
code. I’ll use that for sure!

JM

> Le 31 mars 2018 à 16:16, Thomas Morley  a écrit :
> 
> 2018-03-30 18:25 GMT+02:00 Menu Jacques  >:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I’ve nearly reached my goal. Further attempts lead me to the following, 
>> using a GrandStaff and:
>> 
>>\override GrandStaff.SpanBar.glyph-name = "|"
>>\override Staff.BarLine.glyph-name = "'"
>> 
>> I can’t obtain a vertical short line at the left and right ends of the 
>> spanner yet though, since:
>> 
>>\override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.left.text =
>>\markup { \draw-line #'(0 . -3) }
>>\override AccordionPushSpanner.bound-details.right.text =
>>\markup { \draw-line #'(0 . 3) }
>> 
>> don’t make a change. That would be useful it seems.
>> 
>> Also, the thick parts of the repeat barlines don’t go down to the lower 
>> stave, but that is maybe less useful. Maybe diatonic accordion players on 
>> this list can comment on that. For the others, let’s mention that a thick 
>> line means « push » and that its absence means « draw ».
>> 
>> The next important step will be to convert the actual note pitches into the 
>> fingerings that should be displayed instead.
>> 
>> JM
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Le 27 mars 2018 à 13:16, Menu Jacques >> > a écrit :
>>> 
>>> Hello folks,
>>> 
>>> I've modified the AccordionPushSpanner example supplied by someone on this 
>>> list (can't find who it was, unfortunately), giving the attached file and 
>>> the score :
>>> 
>>> 
>>> How can I tune the settings to align the bar lines lower tips with the 
>>> single staff line, and hide the dots in the repeat bar lines, in a way 
>>> similar to:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The small vertical lines would be nice to have too.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for your help!
>>> 
>>> JM
>>> 
>>> http://accordionpushspannerexample.ly/>>
>>> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> the original coding is by David Nalesnik
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-07/msg00541.html 
> 
> 
> Attached you'll find a revised version and an example. I recommend to
> read the changelog in accordion.ily
> 
> To adjust the BarLines I'd simply set bar-extent to '(0 . 0) in the lower 
> Staff.
> 
> 
> HTH,
>  Harm
> 

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Re: Fine-tuning of markup positions

[Robin Bannister]

MarcHohl wrote:

 Is there a different approach I can use?


If the three-part \fill-line is so dominant, 
I suppose you have to cope using ordinary lines. 

But \concat and \with-dimensions might make this easier to twiddle:  
  maintain total \hspace by hand.  



matrix = \markup {
 \override #'(baseline-skip . 2.2)
 \center-column { 
   \concat {

 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) a
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) b 
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) c 
   }

   \concat {
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) d
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) e 
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) f 
   }

   \concat {
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) g
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) h 
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) i 
   }

 }
}


Cheers,
Robin


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Re: Fine-tuning of markup positions

[Marc Hohl]

Robin Bannister schrieb:
MarcHohl wrote:   

 Is there a different approach I can use?


If the three-part \fill-line is so dominant, I suppose you have to 
cope using ordinary lines.
But \concat and \with-dimensions might make this easier to twiddle:
maintain total \hspace by hand. 


matrix = \markup {
 \override #'(baseline-skip . 2.2)
 \center-column {\concat {
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) a
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) b  \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) c}
   \concat {
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) d
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) e  \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) f}
   \concat {
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) g
 \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) h  \hspace #3
 \with-dimensions #'(0 . 0) #'(0 . 0) i}
 }
}


Works just great, thank you!

Marc


Cheers,
Robin





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2.4.2:chord sheet fine tuning questions

[John Sellers]

I
am working up a series of chord sheets for myself and I have run into
some page turning problems.  It seems very awkward with my limited
knowledge to get good control over vertical spacing as well as getting
page brakes in the right place.  What is the most systematic way to do
this?  Is there a graceful way?


1) I don't know what is the cause of the vertical wasted space in my
lead sheet design, or how to get any fine control over it, a complete
sample file is shown below.

2) If the page break is at the end of the score, it is ignored and the
two scores end up on the same page.

3) I don't know how to automatically put the correct version and date
in the tagline.  Currently I am just hard coding it.


Any help will be appreciated.


---John


%-start
code---

\renameinput "nomus.ly"

\paper  {

printpagenumber = ##f

raggedright = ##t

raggedbottom = ##t

}

#(set-global-staff-size 23)

#(set-default-paper-size "letter")

\version "2.4.0"

init = {

  \set chordChanges = ##t   \set ChordNames.minimumVerticalExtent =
#'(-3 . 3)

  \set Score.barNumberVisibility = ##f

  \time 4/4

}

thePaper = \layout{

  indent = 0

    \context{

    \ChordNames

    \override BarLine #'bar-size = #4

    \override BarLine #'hair-thickness = #3

    \override KeySignature

   #'break-visibility = #all-invisible

    \consists Bar_engraver

    \consists Key_engraver

    \consists Time_signature_engraver

    }

  }


\book {

\header {

texidoc = "Jazz Chord    format: chords and key."

title = "Ballad Transposition Series 2-0"

subtitle = "Chords Edited by JL"

composer = "Standards in All Keys - Draft 1.0"

arranger = "Engraved and Proofed by JS"

dedication = "not for profit or assumption of rights"

tagline = "Engraved by LilyPond, 2.4.2-1 - 12/29/04"

}

\score{

  \context ChordNames

  \transpose bes bes {

  \key bes \major

  \init

  \chordmode {

    e4:7 d:7 ees2 e4:7 d:7 ees2 \break

    \set chordChanges = ##f

    ees1

    \set chordChanges = ##t

    f:7 f2:m ees:7 ees4 e f e ees1

  }

    }

  \layout { \thePaper }

  \midi{ \tempo 4 . = 110 }

  \header { piece = "Watch What Happens" }

}


\score{

  \context ChordNames

  \transpose bes bes {

  \key ees \major

  \init

  \chordmode {

    ees1:maj7 bes2:m7 ees:9 aes1:maj7 aes2:m7 des:9 g:m c:7 \break

    bes1:m ees:9 aes:maj7 aes:maj7 a2:m d:7 c:m f:7 bes1 bes:aug

  }

    }

  \layout { \thePaper }

  \midi{ \tempo 4 . = 110 }

  \header { piece = "Misty" }

}

}

%-end
code---






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Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Lilyponders,

Finally, I got some microtonal notation working in Lilypond that uses
a special font for the accidentals (i.e. not the usual Feta font),
please see the attached example PDF file. The full Lilypond code is
included at the end of this mail. This example shows a harmonic
seventh chord over C (first as an "arpeggio" and then all notes
together) using the "Extended Helmholtz-Ellis JI Pitch Notation" (HE
for short) by Marc Sabat and Wolfgang von Schweinitz. Besides non-
Feta accidentals, the example also uses accidentals that consist of
multiple signs where additional signs show comma inflections (e.g.,
the septimal comma before the B-flat in the example, the harmonic 7th
over C). The required font and further information about this
notation is available at

   http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-font-2009.zip.

I implemented this microtonal notation by changing the notation of
accidentals to markups, following an idea by Graham Breed. Doing so
did not only allow for selecting a different font, but also for
accidentals that consist of more than a single sign. Changing
accidentals for individual notes in a chord was particularly tricky,
and I used an idea by Mark Polesky for this.

Anyway, although this this approach to microtonal notation is already
usable, it could use some improvements. I would be grateful for
suggestions.

The main problem is the horizontal spacing. Spacing with single-sign
accidentals works fine, Lilypond takes care of that automatically.
However, Lilypond does not know about multiple-sign accidentals, so I
somehow have to create more horizontal space for these manually. The
Lily manual (http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/
lilypond/Horizontal-spacing-overview#Horizontal-spacing-overview)
suggests as a trick to use the following code, however I could not
get this approach working. What am I missing?

  \once \override Score.SeparationItem #'padding = #1

Instead, I globally increased the horizontal spacing (http://
lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond/Changing-
horizontal-spacing#Changing-horizontal-spacing).

Any further idea to insert some additional horizonal space before a
note in order to fit in complex accidentals? Spacing of multiple-sign
accidentals in a chord is even more tricky...

The second issue is the readability of the Lilypond code. I defined
the music function \accidental that expects a markup and sets the
accidental of next note to that markup. I also started defining
readable accidental names that are mapped to the respective markup.
For example, the following two notes are first an untransposed C and
then an E a just major third above it: with respect to the
Phythagorean E it is transposed down by a syntonic comma (see the
second note in the attached example).

   c
   \accidental \naturalSyntonicDown
   e

However, I failed to do the same for chord tones. I need to define a
music function that creates the following code, but the markup should
be given as an argument, as above.

\tweak #'before-line-breaking #(accidental-text (markup #:sans "m"))

The problem might be that I do not know how to automatically
translate a Lily-syntax markup (e.g., \markup{\sans "m"}) into the
Scheme-syntax markup required here.

Of course, I also cordially welcome any other ideas for improving
this approach to microtonal notation.

Thank you!

Best
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de


---
%% Lily code (first various defs and then the score at the end)

\version "2.12.00"

%% Font "HE" must be installed (e.g., on MacOS in /Library/Fonts)
%% Font HE put in as 2nd font: can be accessed as \sans
\paper{
#(define fonts (make-pango-font-tree "Century Schoolbook L"
  "HE"
  "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono"
 1))
}

\layout {
   \context
   { \Score
 %% more space between all notes (to allow for extra accidentals)
 \override SpacingSpanner #'base-shortest-duration = #(ly:make- 
moment 1 16)

 %% all accidentals are written as markups
 \override Accidental #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
 %% default is natural accidental -- causes error...
 \override Accidental #'text = #(markup #:sans "n")
   }
}

#(define (modify-accidental note-grob prop-alist)
   ;; notehead before-line-breaking callback
   (let ((accidental (ly:grob-object note-grob 'accidental-grob)))
(if (not (null? accidental))
 (for-each
  (lambda (x)
   (ly:grob-set-property! accidental (car x) (cdr x)))
  prop-alist
#(define (accidental-text markup)
   (lambda (grob)
(modify-accidental grob `((text . ,markup)

%% expects a markup and sets accidental of next note to that markup
accidental =
#(define-music-function (par

Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Robin Bannister]

Torsten Anders wrote:  
 However, I failed to do the same for chord tones. 


Something like this? 


%%
tweakAccidental =
#(define-music-function (parser location mkup mus) (markup? ly:music?) 
  (set! (ly:music-property mus 'tweaks) 
(acons 'before-line-breaking (accidental-text mkup)  
   (ly:music-property mus 'tweaks)))
   mus) 
%%


 <
   c'!
   \tweakAccidental \naturalSyntonicDown
   e'!
   g'!
   \tweakAccidental \markup{\halign #0 \sans "2


Cheers,
Robin


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Kees van den Doel]

Not sure if it will help you, but you can look at my solution for microtonal 
notation in this package: http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~kvdoel/tmp/persian.zip

Cheers,
Kees



- Original Message -
From: Torsten Anders 
Date: Monday, September 7, 2009 5:21 am
Subject: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Cc: "tun...@yahoogroups.com" 

> Dear Lilyponders,
> 
> Finally, I got some microtonal notation working in Lilypond that uses
> a special font for the accidentals (i.e. not the usual Feta font),
> please see the attached example PDF file. The full Lilypond code is
> included at the end of this mail. This example shows a harmonic
> seventh chord over C (first as an "arpeggio" and then all notes
> together) using the "Extended Helmholtz-Ellis JI Pitch Notation" (HE
> for short) by Marc Sabat and Wolfgang von Schweinitz. Besides 
> non-
> Feta accidentals, the example also uses accidentals that consist of
> multiple signs where additional signs show comma inflections (e.g.,
> the septimal comma before the B-flat in the example, the 
> harmonic 7th
> over C). The required font and further information about this
> notation is available at
> 
>     http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-
> font-2009.zip.
> 
> I implemented this microtonal notation by changing the notation of
> accidentals to markups, following an idea by Graham Breed. Doing so
> did not only allow for selecting a different font, but also for
> accidentals that consist of more than a single sign. Changing
> accidentals for individual notes in a chord was particularly tricky,
> and I used an idea by Mark Polesky for this.
> 
> Anyway, although this this approach to microtonal notation is already
> usable, it could use some improvements. I would be grateful for
> suggestions.
> 
> The main problem is the horizontal spacing. Spacing with single-sign
> accidentals works fine, Lilypond takes care of that automatically.
> However, Lilypond does not know about multiple-sign accidentals, 
> so I
> somehow have to create more horizontal space for these manually. The
> Lily manual (http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/
> lilypond/Horizontal-spacing-overview#Horizontal-spacing-overview)
> suggests as a trick to use the following code, however I could not
> get this approach working. What am I missing?
> 
>    \once \override Score.SeparationItem #'padding = #1
> 
> Instead, I globally increased the horizontal spacing (http://
> lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond/Changing-
> horizontal-spacing#Changing-horizontal-spacing).
> 
> Any further idea to insert some additional horizonal space 
> before a
> note in order to fit in complex accidentals? Spacing of multiple-sign
> accidentals in a chord is even more tricky...
> 
> The second issue is the readability of the Lilypond code. I defined
> the music function \accidental that expects a markup and sets the
> accidental of next note to that markup. I also started defining
> readable accidental names that are mapped to the respective markup.
> For example, the following two notes are first an untransposed C and
> then an E a just major third above it: with respect to the
> Phythagorean E it is transposed down by a syntonic comma (see the
> second note in the attached example).
> 
>     c
>     \accidental \naturalSyntonicDown
>     e
> 
> However, I failed to do the same for chord tones. I need to 
> define a
> music function that creates the following code, but the markup should
> be given as an argument, as above.
> 
> \tweak #'before-line-breaking #(accidental-text (markup #:sans "m"))
> 
> The problem might be that I do not know how to automatically
> translate a Lily-syntax markup (e.g., \markup{\sans "m"}) into the
> Scheme-syntax markup required here.
> 
> Of course, I also cordially welcome any other ideas for improving
> this approach to microtonal notation.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Best
> Torsten
> 
> --
> Torsten Anders
> Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
> University of Plymouth
> Office: +44-1752-586219
> Private: +44-1752-558917
> http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
> http://www.torsten-anders.de
> 
> 
> ---
> %% Lily code (first various defs and then the score at the end)
> 
> \version "2.12.00"
> 
> %% Font "HE" must be installed (e.g., on MacOS in /Library/Fonts)
> %% Font HE put in as 2nd font: can be accessed as \sans
> \paper{
> #(define fonts (make-pango-font-tree "Century Schoolbook L"
>    "HE"
>   

Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Kees,

On 07.09.2009, at 21:10, Kees van den Doel wrote:
Not sure if it will help you, but you can look at my solution for  
microtonal notation in this package: http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~kvdoel/tmp/persian.zip


Thank you for sharing this example. If I am not mistaken, you used the  
maqam example of the Lilypond  documentation as a starting point for  
this. The advantage is that introducing new note names for each pitch  
nominal and accidental combination makes the score is rather concise  
(however, you first have to define all those combinations and with a  
large number of accidentals as in the case of something like the  
Helmholtz-Ellis notation -- or Saggital notation for that matter --  
you get very very many note names).


I previously thought that the approach you are using is limited to  
signs from the Feta font, but you obviously managed to use other fonts  
as well, great! I will keep a mental note of that :)


Nevertheless, I don't see how with this approach you can have  
accidentals that consist of multiple signs. In order to make this  
point more clear I attached a version of the previous example  
transposed down by a septimal comma.


The accidentals for the chord get very cluttered in this example. Is  
it somehow possible to adapt the collision-avoidance code of  
accidentals to take the whole "area" of the accidental markups into  
account? I would rather prefer the output takes too much space than it  
is unreadable like this. For example, it would be great if accidental  
combinations would horizontally follow each other: first all  
accidentals for this note, then for that etc.


Thank you!

Best
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de


Lily-HE-accidentals-septimalCommaLower.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document


Lily-HE-accidentals-septimalCommaLower.ly
Description: Binary data



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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

On 07.09.2009, at 19:57, Robin Bannister wrote:

Torsten Anders wrote:

However, I failed to do the same for chord tones.

Something like this?


Great, thank you very much!!

Now my remaining problem is the spacing. For example, can anyone  
explain to me how to use the following snippet from the documentation.  
It appears to do nothing for me.


 \once \override Score.SeparationItem #'padding = #1

Are there other ways to add some horizontal spacing before a note?

Thank you!

Best
Torsten



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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Robin Bannister]

Torsten Anders wrote:  

 Lilypond does not know about multiple-sign accidentals, so I
somehow have to create more horizontal space for these manually.   



The following code tries to adjust this spacing automatically.   
But I haven't tested it with your font.   




#(define (markup-X-extent markup) (lambda (grob)
  (ly:stencil-extent (grob-interpret-markup grob markup) X)))

#(define (accidental-text markup) (lambda (grob)
  (modify-accidental grob 
`((text . ,markup) 
  (X-extent . ,(markup-X-extent markup))


accidental =
#(define-music-function (parser location markup) (markup?)
 #{
   \once \override Accidental #'text = #$markup
   \once \override Accidental #'X-extent = #(markup-X-extent $markup)
 #})



Cheers,
Robin


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Robin,

On 09.09.2009, at 00:08, Robin Bannister wrote:

Torsten Anders wrote:

Lilypond does not know about multiple-sign accidentals, so I
somehow have to create more horizontal space for these manually.


The following code tries to adjust this spacing automatically.



Thank you very very much for your help! The output is now almost
perfect as you can see see in the two examples below. The much
improved spacing of the first example is solely due to the code you
suggested.

<>



The second example presents a harmonic progression (in 13-limit just  
intonation). (The only tweak I did here is moving one of the  
accidentals for nominal b in bar 4 forward). Never mind the wrong  
placement of voices here...


<>


BTW: the same progression including sound is available in Sagittal  
notation (a conceptually closely related notation) at

   http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/sagittal/exmp/index.htm

Now, there is only a minor flaw now: the distance between a note and  
the related accidentals is rather big. In fact, accidentals are more  
close to the preceding note than the note they belong to.

Does anyone perhaps have an idea how to fix this in order to make this  
notation perfect :)

Best
Torsten

PS: I attach the source of the examples above to the next mail: mails  
with multiple attachments seem to be delayed by many hours...

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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

On 09.09.2009, at 23:21, Torsten Anders wrote:
PS: I attach the source of the examples above to the next mail:  
mails with multiple attachments seem to be delayed by many hours...


Attached are the Lilypond source files for examples of the previous  
mail.


Best
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de




HE-Lily-header.ly
Description: Binary data


HE-Lily-example.ly
Description: Binary data


HE-Lily-chordProgression.ly
Description: Binary data






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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

  [sorry for resending, but the mail text was somehow partially  
turned into attachments ...]


Dear Robin,

On 09.09.2009, at 00:08, Robin Bannister wrote:

Torsten Anders wrote:

Lilypond does not know about multiple-sign accidentals, so I
somehow have to create more horizontal space for these manually.


The following code tries to adjust this spacing automatically.


Thank you very very much for your help! The output is now almost  
perfect as you can see see in the two examples below. The much  
improved spacing of the first example is solely due to the code you  
suggested.


<>


The second example presents a harmonic progression (in 13-limit just  
intonation). (The only tweak I did here is moving one of the  
accidentals for nominal b in bar 4 forward). Never mind the wrong  
placement of voices here...


<>



BTW: the same progression including sound is available in Sagittal  
notation (a conceptually closely related notation) at


 http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/sagittal/exmp/index.htm

Now, there is only a minor flaw now: the distance between a note and  
the related accidentals is rather big. In fact, accidentals are more  
close to the preceding note than the note they belong to.


Does anyone perhaps have an idea how to fix this in order to make this  
notation perfect :)


Best
Torsten

PS: I attach the source of the examples above to the next mail: mails  
with multiple attachments seem to be delayed by many hours...


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Joseph Wakeling]

Torsten Anders wrote:
> Thank you very very much for your help! The output is now almost
> perfect as you can see see in the two examples below. The much
> improved spacing of the first example is solely due to the code you
> suggested.

Dear Torsten,

I'm really pleased to see your work on this as right now I'm working on
extending the Lilypond docs' content on notating contemporary music --
one of the topics I'm about to start writing up is microtonal notation.

I'm not at all familiar with this notation or its logic or history, so
it would be great if you would consider either writing some
documentation yourself or exchanging a few emails to help me write up
appropriate info on this.

Best wishes,

-- Joe


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Joseph,

This notation is explain in detail in a paper that is part of the font
distribution itself at

  http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-font-2009.zip

Several composers whose work is listed at http://plainsound.org
actively use this notation, including for large-scale orchestral music
(!), e.g.,

  http://www.plainsound.org/pdfs/sinfonie.pdf
  http://www.plainsound.org/music/sinfonie.m3u

It might be fun to listen to a retuning of Johann Sebastian Bach's
RICERCAR (Musikalisches Opfer 1) while reading the notation (it is
great and crazy :)

  http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/JSBRicercar.pdf
  http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/audio/JSBRicercar.html

Anyway, if you have further questions don't hesitate to ask.

Best
Torsten

PS: The code I just send it is already pretty much cleaned up if you
want to use it for a doc snippet.


On 09.09.2009, at 23:32, Joseph Wakeling wrote:

Torsten Anders wrote:

Thank you very very much for your help! The output is now almost
perfect as you can see see in the two examples below. The much
improved spacing of the first example is solely due to the code you
suggested.


Dear Torsten,

I'm really pleased to see your work on this as right now I'm working
on
extending the Lilypond docs' content on notating contemporary music --
one of the topics I'm about to start writing up is microtonal
notation.

I'm not at all familiar with this notation or its logic or history, so
it would be great if you would consider either writing some
documentation yourself or exchanging a few emails to help me write up
appropriate info on this.

Best wishes,

  -- Joe




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Kees van den Doel]

The Ab's sound horribly out of tune, as if they were meantone G#'s.

Kees
- Original Message -
From: Torsten Anders 
Date: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 4:27 pm
Subject: Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org

> Dear Joseph,
> 
> This notation is explain in detail in a paper that is part of 
> the font
> distribution itself at
> 
>    http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-font-2009.zip
> 
> Several composers whose work is listed at http://plainsound.org
> actively use this notation, including for large-scale orchestral music
> (!), e.g.,
> 
>    http://www.plainsound.org/pdfs/sinfonie.pdf
>    http://www.plainsound.org/music/sinfonie.m3u
> 
> It might be fun to listen to a retuning of Johann Sebastian Bach's
> RICERCAR (Musikalisches Opfer 1) while reading the notation (it is
> great and crazy :)
> 
>    http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/JSBRicercar.pdf
>    
> http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/audio/JSBRicercar.html
> Anyway, if you have further questions don't hesitate to ask.
> 
> Best
> Torsten
> 
> PS: The code I just send it is already pretty much cleaned up if you
> want to use it for a doc snippet.
> 
> 
> On 09.09.2009, at 23:32, Joseph Wakeling wrote:
> > Torsten Anders wrote:
> >> Thank you very very much for your help! The output is now almost
> >> perfect as you can see see in the two examples below. The much
> >> improved spacing of the first example is solely due to the 
> code you
> >> suggested.
> >
> > Dear Torsten,
> >
> > I'm really pleased to see your work on this as right now I'm working
> > on
> > extending the Lilypond docs' content on notating contemporary 
> music --
> > one of the topics I'm about to start writing up is microtonal
> > notation.
> >
> > I'm not at all familiar with this notation or its logic or 
> history, so
> > it would be great if you would consider either writing some
> > documentation yourself or exchanging a few emails to help me 
> write up
> > appropriate info on this.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> >   -- Joe
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 10 Sep 2009, at 01:26, Torsten Anders wrote:


This notation is explain in detail in a paper that is part of the font
distribution itself at

 http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-font-2009.zip


I also found
  http://www.newmusicbox.org/72/HelmholtzEllisLegend.pdf

It seems to be that that staff indicates the Pythagorean tuning, with  
accidentals to indicate offsets relative that. Right?


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

On 10.09.2009, at 09:03, Hans Aberg wrote:

On 10 Sep 2009, at 01:26, Torsten Anders wrote:


This notation is explain in detail in a paper that is part of the
font
distribution itself at

http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-font-2009.zip


I also found
http://www.newmusicbox.org/72/HelmholtzEllisLegend.pdf

It seems to be that that staff indicates the Pythagorean tuning,
with accidentals to indicate offsets relative that. Right?


Exactly: nominals (c, d, e...) and the "common accientals" (natural,
#, b, x, bb) denote a spiral of Pythagorean fifths. Other accidentals
detune this Pythagorean by commas etc. Multiple comma-accidentals can
be freely combined for notating arbitrary just intonation pitches. The
Sagittal notation (http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/sagittal/)
follows exactly the same idea.

This is in contrast, for example, to the older just intonation
notation by Ben Johnston (see David B. Doty (2002). The Just
Intonation Primer. Just Intonation Network), where some intervals
between nominals are Pythagorean (e.g., C G) and others are a just
third etc (e.g., C E). Accidentals again denotes various comma shifts
exactly. However, as the notation is less uniform music not notated in
C is harder to read. I assume this experience led to the development
of the Pythagorean-based approach of the  Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal
notation.

The Sagittal notation allows for an even more fine-grained tuning
(e.g., even comma fractions for adaptive just intonation), and also
provides a single sign for each comma combination. However, I find the
Helmholtz-Ellis notation more easy to read (signs differ more, less
signs).

Best
Torsten



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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

On 10.09.2009, at 09:03, Hans Aberg wrote:
It seems to be that that staff indicates the Pythagorean tuning,  
with accidentals to indicate offsets relative that. Right?



This uniform structure of the Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal notation  
makes it possible to not only notate just intonation but also  
arbitrary equal temperaments (equal divisions of the octave) with  
them. The example below shows the pitches of 41-tone equal temperament  
with Helmholtz-Ellis notation. Note that other enharmonic pitches are  
possible, for example, Db and C#L (C# transposed down by a septimal  
comma) share the same 41-tone equal temperament pitch class (namely  
pitch class 3, the fourth note below).


<>



BTW: this example also shows again the problem that the space between  
an accidental and its related note is larger than the space between  
the accidental and the previous note. Any idea how to fix that?


Thank you!

Best
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 10 Sep 2009, at 10:26, Torsten Anders wrote:
[Your mail does not cc to the list - added: seems relevant.]


t is part of the font
distribution itself at

http://music.calarts.edu/~msabat/ms/pdfs/HE-font-2009.zip


I also found
http://www.newmusicbox.org/72/HelmholtzEllisLegend.pdf

It seems to be that that staff indicates the Pythagorean tuning,  
with accidentals to indicate offsets relative that. Right?


Exactly: nominals (c, d, e...) and the "common accientals" (natural,  
#, b, x, bb) denote a spiral of Pythagorean fifths. Other  
accidentals detune this Pythagorean by commas etc. Multiple comma- 
accidentals can be freely combined for notating arbitrary just  
intonation pitches. The Sagittal notation (http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/sagittal/ 
) follows exactly the same idea.


Yes, I thought so.

This is in contrast, for example, to the older just intonation  
notation by Ben Johnston (see David B. Doty (2002). The Just  
Intonation Primer. Just Intonation Network), where some intervals  
between nominals are Pythagorean (e.g., C G) and others are a just  
third etc (e.g., C E). Accidentals again denotes various comma  
shifts exactly. However, as the notation is less uniform music not  
notated in C is harder to read. I assume this experience led to the  
development of the Pythagorean-based approach of the  Helmholtz- 
Ellis and Sagittal notation.


The Sagittal notation allows for an even more fine-grained tuning  
(e.g., even comma fractions for adaptive just intonation), and also  
provides a single sign for each comma combination. However, I find  
the Helmholtz-Ellis notation more easy to read (signs differ more,  
less signs).


The Western musical notation system is limited to what I call a  
diatonic pitch system (as "extended meantone" suggest certain  
closeness to the major third).


For a major second M and minor second m, this is the system of pitches  
generated by p m + q M, where p, q are integers. The case (p, q) =  
(0,0) could be taken to be the tuning frequency. Sharps and flats  
alter with the interval M - m.


I have implemented it into ChuCK, so that it can easily be played in  
various tunings. The Pythagorean and quarter-comma meantone are of  
course special cases. But also others, like the Bohlen-Pierce scale in  
which the diapason is not the octave.


Now, inspired by Hormoz Farhat's thesis on Persian music, I extended  
it by adding neutral seconds. For each neutral seconds n between M &  
m, one needs accidentals to go from m to n, and from M to n. This  
suffices in Farhat's description of Persian music (sori and koron).  
For Turkish music, one needs the "dual" neutral n' := M - n; the  
reason is that different division of the perfect fourth leads to  
negative n coefficients. So then one needs to more accidentals to go  
from m to n', and from M to n'.


In this kind of music notation, one just tries to extend the  
Pythagorean tuning with 5-limit intervals. So one neutral n is  
sufficient in this description. For higher limits, one needs more  
neutrals, and for notation, a way to sort out preferred choice and  
order.


Now, one advantage of this model is that, like the Western notation  
system, one does not need to have explicit values for these symbols,  
though one can do so.


Basically just a FYI.

  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 10 Sep 2009, at 10:57, Torsten Anders wrote:


On 10.09.2009, at 09:03, Hans Aberg wrote:
It seems to be that that staff indicates the Pythagorean tuning,  
with accidentals to indicate offsets relative that. Right?



This uniform structure of the Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal notation  
makes it possible to not only notate just intonation but also  
arbitrary equal temperaments (equal divisions of the octave) with  
them. The example below shows the pitches of 41-tone equal  
temperament with Helmholtz-Ellis notation. Note that other  
enharmonic pitches are possible, for example, Db and C#L (C#  
transposed down by a septimal comma) share the same 41-tone equal  
temperament pitch class (namely pitch class 3, the fourth note below).


Yes, but I tend to think that ETs and Pythagorean tuning, quarter- 
comma meantone, and other diatonic pitch systems would be best notated  
by departing from them, and then adding intermediate pitch accidentals  
relative that. Strictly speaking, it depends on which music instrument  
you have. Mine is a 2-dimensional keyboard. I figured it would take  
too much work learning new playing pattern for each tuning, especially  
in rapind movements, ornamentation, etc. I do not know of a good way  
to play intermediate pitches yet, though.


I think this way of notating should be possible with the system I  
described in my other mail.


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Hans,

I understand you point about only 2 step sizes and your interested to  
extend the number of steps available. I assume this approach is  
particularly suitable for music that is primarily melodic (which is  
the case for Persian and Turkish), and if you disregard ornamental  
pitch inflections.


For music based on harmony, however, your point is not true. There are  
already more than two step sizes (e.g., 9:8 vs 10:9), even in  
conventional Western music (except for keyboards etc.). One  
application of Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal notation is to accurately  
notate the pitch inflections that occur in conventional Western music.


Best
Torsten

On 10.09.2009, at 10:00, Hans Aberg wrote:

On 10 Sep 2009, at 10:26, Torsten Anders wrote:


It seems to be that that staff indicates the Pythagorean tuning,  
with accidentals to indicate offsets relative that. Right?


Exactly: nominals (c, d, e...) and the "common  
accientals" (natural, #, b, x, bb) denote a spiral of Pythagorean  
fifths. Other accidentals detune this Pythagorean by commas etc.  
Multiple comma-accidentals can be freely combined for notating  
arbitrary just intonation pitches. The Sagittal notation (http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/sagittal/ 
) follows exactly the same idea.


Yes, I thought so.

This is in contrast, for example, to the older just intonation  
notation by Ben Johnston (see David B. Doty (2002). The Just  
Intonation Primer. Just Intonation Network), where some intervals  
between nominals are Pythagorean (e.g., C G) and others are a just  
third etc (e.g., C E). Accidentals again denotes various comma  
shifts exactly. However, as the notation is less uniform music not  
notated in C is harder to read. I assume this experience led to the  
development of the Pythagorean-based approach of the  Helmholtz- 
Ellis and Sagittal notation.


The Sagittal notation allows for an even more fine-grained tuning  
(e.g., even comma fractions for adaptive just intonation), and also  
provides a single sign for each comma combination. However, I find  
the Helmholtz-Ellis notation more easy to read (signs differ more,  
less signs).


The Western musical notation system is limited to what I call a  
diatonic pitch system (as "extended meantone" suggest certain  
closeness to the major third).


For a major second M and minor second m, this is the system of  
pitches generated by p m + q M, where p, q are integers. The case  
(p, q) = (0,0) could be taken to be the tuning frequency. Sharps and  
flats alter with the interval M - m.


I have implemented it into ChuCK, so that it can easily be played in  
various tunings. The Pythagorean and quarter-comma meantone are of  
course special cases. But also others, like the Bohlen-Pierce scale  
in which the diapason is not the octave.


Now, inspired by Hormoz Farhat's thesis on Persian music, I extended  
it by adding neutral seconds. For each neutral seconds n between M &  
m, one needs accidentals to go from m to n, and from M to n. This  
suffices in Farhat's description of Persian music (sori and koron).  
For Turkish music, one needs the "dual" neutral n' := M - n; the  
reason is that different division of the perfect fourth leads to  
negative n coefficients. So then one needs to more accidentals to go  
from m to n', and from M to n'.


In this kind of music notation, one just tries to extend the  
Pythagorean tuning with 5-limit intervals. So one neutral n is  
sufficient in this description. For higher limits, one needs more  
neutrals, and for notation, a way to sort out preferred choice and  
order.


Now, one advantage of this model is that, like the Western notation  
system, one does not need to have explicit values for these symbols,  
though one can do so.


Basically just a FYI.

 Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Hans,

On 10.09.2009, at 10:13, Hans Aberg wrote:
[...] I tend to think that ETs and Pythagorean tuning, quarter-comma  
meantone, and other diatonic pitch systems would be best notated by  
departing from them, and then adding intermediate pitch accidentals  
relative that.


A completely different notation approach might be more economic from a  
pure notation point of view (many have been proposed), but musicians  
including myself just had a life-long training in the existing  
notation. So, for those an extended form of the existing notation is  
more appealing than something that starts form scratch.


Strictly speaking, it depends on which music instrument you have.  
Mine is a 2-dimensional keyboard.


If your notation depends on your instrument then you devised actually  
a tabulature. They have their purposes of course, but being instrument  
specific they have their restrictions too. BTW: I can actually play HE  
notation on a Tonal Plexus (http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28intro.html),  
slowly, but I never practise :)


Best
Torsten


On 10.09.2009, at 10:13, Hans Aberg wrote:


On 10 Sep 2009, at 10:57, Torsten Anders wrote:


On 10.09.2009, at 09:03, Hans Aberg wrote:
It seems to be that that staff indicates the Pythagorean tuning,  
with accidentals to indicate offsets relative that. Right?



This uniform structure of the Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal notation  
makes it possible to not only notate just intonation but also  
arbitrary equal temperaments (equal divisions of the octave) with  
them. The example below shows the pitches of 41-tone equal  
temperament with Helmholtz-Ellis notation. Note that other  
enharmonic pitches are possible, for example, Db and C#L (C#  
transposed down by a septimal comma) share the same 41-tone equal  
temperament pitch class (namely pitch class 3, the fourth note  
below).


Yes, but I tend to think that ETs and Pythagorean tuning, quarter- 
comma meantone, and other diatonic pitch systems would be best  
notated by departing from them, and then adding intermediate pitch  
accidentals relative that. Strictly speaking, it depends on which  
music instrument you have. Mine is a 2-dimensional keyboard. I  
figured it would take too much work learning new playing pattern for  
each tuning, especially in rapind movements, ornamentation, etc. I  
do not know of a good way to play intermediate pitches yet, though.


I think this way of notating should be possible with the system I  
described in my other mail.


 Hans





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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 10 Sep 2009, at 11:45, Torsten Anders wrote:

I understand you point about only 2 step sizes and your interested  
to extend the number of steps available. I assume this approach is  
particularly suitable for music that is primarily melodic (which is  
the case for Persian and Turkish), and if you disregard ornamental  
pitch inflections.


For music based on harmony, however, your point is not true. There  
are already more than two step sizes (e.g., 9:8 vs 10:9), even in  
conventional Western music (except for keyboards etc.). One  
application of Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal notation is to  
accurately notate the pitch inflections that occur in conventional  
Western music.


Just add as many neutrals as you want. Each one can typically cover  
another partial, and generates 4 intermediate pitch accidentals.


So for Just notation, one needs to add (in Pythagorean tuning) one  
neutral which is one syntonic comma below M. One description of  
Persian music is adding a double syntonic comma over m. In the first  
case, one will also add a symbol for the dual neutral, which is a  
syntonic comma over m.


So the notation for Persian music, tied to this description in this  
particular tuning, can be described by a double accidental in the Just  
notation. The reason one does not do that is that it has different  
musical function - in fact Persian music is not tied to a specific  
tuning, just as Western music notation isn't.


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 10 Sep 2009, at 12:14, Torsten Anders wrote:

[...] I tend to think that ETs and Pythagorean tuning, quarter- 
comma meantone, and other diatonic pitch systems would be best  
notated by departing from them, and then adding intermediate pitch  
accidentals relative that.


A completely different notation approach might be more economic from  
a pure notation point of view (many have been proposed), but  
musicians including myself just had a life-long training in the  
existing notation. So, for those an extended form of the existing  
notation is more appealing than something that starts form scratch.


Perhaps you misunderstood: I do the same thing as you, only as in  
standard Western notation, not tying it to a particular tuning, at  
least not from the general point of view.


Strictly speaking, it depends on which music instrument you have.  
Mine is a 2-dimensional keyboard.


If your notation depends on your instrument then you devised  
actually a tabulature. They have their purposes of course, but being  
instrument specific they have their restrictions too. BTW: I can  
actually play HE notation on a Tonal Plexus (http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28intro.html 
), slowly, but I never practise :)


Is it touch (velocity) sensitive?

I use the layout:
  C#  D#  E#
C   D   E   F#  G#  A#  B#
  Cb  Db  Eb  F   G   A   B
Fb  Gb  Ab  Bb  C'
Then the playing and fingering patterns are the same in different  
keys. Transposition is by translation. (Contact me in private mail if  
you want to try it.)


But I do not know a good way to extend it to intermediate pitches.

  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Robin Bannister]

Torsten Anders wrote: 
Now, there is only a minor flaw now: the distance between a note and  
the related accidentals is rather big. In fact, accidentals are more  
close to the preceding note than the note they belong to. 



I'm way out of my depth here, 
but it looks like markup is appending space to the glyphs of this font.

To see how far the markup actually extends, try doing 

 \override Accidental #'stencil = 
   #(lambda (grob) (box-stencil (ly:text-interface::print grob) 0 0))




And to see the effect more clearly, compare these two concats:

 \markupHE \markup \concat { \sans n \sans n } % HE font

 \markupHE \markup \concat { \natural \natural } % feta font



I can't help you with this font problem,   
but cheating on the X-extent improves things a bit:   



#(define (markup-X-extent markup) (lambda (grob)
  (interval-translate 
(ly:stencil-extent (grob-interpret-markup grob markup) X) 
-0.5)))




Cheers,
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Kees van den Doel]

Don't forget to mention this publication where the Persian microtonal 
accidentals were introduced,
which are the only ones that are standardized (and still absent in lilypond):

Vaziri, A. N., Dastur-e Tàr, Tehran, 1913.

Kees
- Original Message -
From: Joseph Wakeling 

> I'm really pleased to see your work on this as right now I'm 
> working on
> extending the Lilypond docs' content on notating contemporary 
> music --
> one of the topics I'm about to start writing up is microtonal 
> notation.
> I'm not at all familiar with this notation or its logic or 
> history, so
> it would be great if you would consider either writing some
> documentation yourself or exchanging a few emails to help me 
> write up
> appropriate info on this.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
>     -- Joe
> 
> 
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Robin,

Thank you very very much!! The notation is perfect now, I really owe
you something :)

I assume the designer of this accidental font inserted the space
before each sign on purpose: with a larger distance the signs are more
easy to read. I just checked: in the existing scores printed with this
font (using Sibelius) these large gaps before and between accidentals
show as well (they instead use more room between all notes).

Best
Torsten

On 10.09.2009, at 22:02, Robin Bannister wrote:

Torsten Anders wrote:

Now, there is only a minor flaw now: the distance between a note
and  the related accidentals is rather big. In fact, accidentals
are more  close to the preceding note than the note they belong to.



I'm way out of my depth here, but it looks like markup is appending
space to the glyphs of this font.
To see how far the markup actually extends, try doing
\override Accidental #'stencil =#(lambda (grob) (box-stencil
(ly:text-interface::print grob) 0 0))



And to see the effect more clearly, compare these two concats:

\markupHE \markup \concat { \sans n \sans n } % HE font

\markupHE \markup \concat { \natural \natural } % feta font



I can't help you with this font problem,   but cheating on the X-
extent improves things a bit:

#(define (markup-X-extent markup) (lambda (grob)
(interval-translate (ly:stencil-extent (grob-interpret-markup
grob markup) X) -0.5)))



Cheers,
Robin




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Robin Bannister]

Torsten Anders wrote:  
I really owe you something :)   


Well, it's Mark Polesky we both owe.   

Without him, all small-time Schemers like me would still be 
believing the very plausible explanation in (the 2.12) NR 5.3.4 
of why \tweak cannot be used to modify accidentals.  



Cheers,
Robin


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Trevor Daniels]

Robin Bannister wrote Friday, September 11, 2009 6:15 PM


Torsten Anders wrote:  
I really owe you something :)   


Well, it's Mark Polesky we both owe.   

Without him, all small-time Schemers like me would still be 
believing the very plausible explanation in (the 2.12) NR 5.3.4 
of why \tweak cannot be used to modify accidentals.  


I've not been following this thread very closely,
but it seems like you're suggesting NR 5.3.4 is
not correct.  If so, I missed what Mark said.  
Could you please say how this section should be
modified or, even better, post a patch to be applied 
to changing-defaults.itely.


TIA

Trevor



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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Robin Bannister]

Trevor Daniels wrote:
 it seems like you're suggesting NR 5.3.4 is not correct.  


I was talking about the 2.12 NR.  
I understood its unqualified "cannot" to be the well-meaning advice: 
- don't waste your time trying.
So I didn't.   



But Mark questioned this in July, 
and you updated the NR accordingly:   
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2009-07/msg00353.html   
(still awaiting release with 2.13.4). 



Cheers,
Robin


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Trevor Daniels]

Robin, you wrote Friday, September 11, 2009 8:32 PM



Trevor Daniels wrote:

 it seems like you're suggesting NR 5.3.4 is not correct.


I was talking about the 2.12 NR.  I understood its unqualified 
"cannot" to be the well-meaning advice: - don't waste your time 
trying.So I didn't.


But Mark questioned this in July, and you updated the NR 
accordingly: 
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2009-07/msg00353.html 
(still awaiting release with 2.13.4).


Ahh, I remember now!  Sorry for the noise,
my memory is not as it used to be :(

Trevor



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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 10 Sep 2009, at 12:14, Torsten Anders wrote:

I can actually play HE notation on a Tonal Plexus (http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28intro.html 
), slowly, but I never practise :)


This, if one sticks to the key coloring, is in fact just five  
translated keyboard of the layout I indicated. So if imposing full  
transposition-by-translation, it just divides the M - m interval into  
five parts. For CPP music harmony, it might be better to use a quarter- 
comma meantone, or the closely related E31, which on the keyboard the  
becomes E155 = E(5*31). The Pythagorean tuning and its approximations  
E12l E41 (which is what is descried on he page above) and E53.


But one can move one step further, if transposition is only needed in  
M & m amounts. The center keys might be set in Pythagorean tuning, and  
the offsets a double syntonic comma for use with Persian music, or  
single syntonic comma for Turkish music. Or second offset might be  
used to hit the partial 7/4 exactly.


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Community,
I know that I am a little late in this discussion.
I wanted to try out theexample of Thorsten, I found at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-09/msg00205.html
What I don't understand is: where do I have to have the files of the
HE-font?
And, is there a final version of the example code somewhere? I wasn't able
to find it!
Thank You
Stefan
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Graham Breed]

Stefan Thomas wrote:

Dear Community,
I know that I am a little late in this discussion.
I wanted to try out theexample of Thorsten, I found at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-09/msg00205.html
What I don't understand is: where do I have to have the files of the
HE-font?


You install them wherever fonts go on your system.  That may 
sound vague but, of course, it depends on your system.  I 
think there's a special folder LilyPond looks in as well but 
I'd have to check the documentation to find it, same as you.



And, is there a final version of the example code somewhere? I wasn't able
to find it!


Don't know, sorry.  Probably somewhere in this thread.


   Graham


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Graham,
in the meantime I found out, where I have to install the font on my kubuntu
machine.
I was able to try out the example.
There is one not convincing for me:
The default accidental is an natural. But I would like to use fis and ges as
before.
Wouldnt it a possibilitie to define new pitch-names, like it has been done
in the makam.ly?
But how can this be done?

2009/9/25 Graham Breed 

> Stefan Thomas wrote:
>
>> Dear Community,
>> I know that I am a little late in this discussion.
>> I wanted to try out theexample of Thorsten, I found at
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-09/msg00205.html
>> What I don't understand is: where do I have to have the files of the
>> HE-font?
>>
>
> You install them wherever fonts go on your system.  That may sound vague
> but, of course, it depends on your system.  I think there's a special folder
> LilyPond looks in as well but I'd have to check the documentation to find
> it, same as you.
>
>  And, is there a final version of the example code somewhere? I wasn't able
>> to find it!
>>
>
> Don't know, sorry.  Probably somewhere in this thread.
>
>
>   Graham
>
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Graham Breed]

Stefan Thomas wrote:

Dear Graham,
in the meantime I found out, where I have to install the font on my kubuntu
machine.


That's good.


I was able to try out the example.
There is one not convincing for me:
The default accidental is an natural. But I would like to use fis and ges as
before.


Aren't these two different problems?  You can use a 
different glyph for naturals by changing one of the tables.



Wouldnt it a possibilitie to define new pitch-names, like it has been done
in the makam.ly?
But how can this be done?


Yes, absolutely.  There should be a list of pitch names in 
the code you're using.  All you so is change them.




Graham




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Graham,
absolutely, I would like to define a list of notenames, for e.g. pitches
that are about 15cents lower, But I have no idea how to do it, when I use
the HE-font for the accidentals.
Off course, I had a look in makam.ly
and I found there
makamGlyphs = #`((1 . "accidentals.doublesharp")
   (8/9 . "accidentals.sharp.slashslashslash.stemstem")
  )
But how could I define a "Helmholtz-Glyph"?

2009/9/25 Graham Breed 

> Stefan Thomas wrote:
>
>> Dear Graham,
>> in the meantime I found out, where I have to install the font on my
>> kubuntu
>> machine.
>>
>
> That's good.
>
>  I was able to try out the example.
>> There is one not convincing for me:
>> The default accidental is an natural. But I would like to use fis and ges
>> as
>> before.
>>
>
> Aren't these two different problems?  You can use a different glyph for
> naturals by changing one of the tables.
>
>  Wouldnt it a possibilitie to define new pitch-names, like it has been done
>> in the makam.ly?
>> But how can this be done?
>>
>
> Yes, absolutely.  There should be a list of pitch names in the code you're
> using.  All you so is change them.
>
>
>
>Graham
>
>
>
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Graham Breed]

Stefan Thomas wrote:

Dear Graham,
absolutely, I would like to define a list of notenames, for e.g. pitches
that are about 15cents lower, But I have no idea how to do it, when I use
the HE-font for the accidentals.


For the code I have, pitch names are defined as:

HEPitchNames = #`(
  (c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 0))
  (g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 10/1023))
  (edown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 -75/1096))
  (bflatseven . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 -162/247))
  (d . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 20/1023))

and so on.

If you want more pitches, you add them.  The parameters are 
documented for ly:make-pitch under Scheme Functions.



Off course, I had a look in makam.ly
and I found there
makamGlyphs = #`((1 . "accidentals.doublesharp")
   (8/9 . "accidentals.sharp.slashslashslash.stemstem")
  )
But how could I define a "Helmholtz-Glyph"?


This table is different when you use an external font.  The 
relevant table, as I have it, starts like this:


HEStrings = #`(
(0  "\x6e" (0 . 1) (-0.5 . 0.5))
(10/1023  "\x6e" (0 . 0.6) (-0.5 . 0.5))
(-75/1096  "\x6d" (0 . 0.6) (-1.1 . 0.5))
(-162/247  "\x3c\x65" (-2 . 2) (-0.5 . 0.5))
(20/1023  "\x6e" (0 . 0.6) (-1.1 . 0.5))

In each of those lists, the first entry is the alteration in 
whole tones (1/1 = 200 cents).  The second entry is the 
UTF-8 encoded string to display.  The other two pairs are 
the X- and Y-extents that determine how much space LilyPond 
allows for the accidentals.  We currently don't know how to 
make sensible guesses for these so they have to be hard coded.


The alteration for very accidental in the first table has to 
match a row in the second one.



Graham



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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Graham,
thanks very much!
It doesn't seem to be very easy for my, but I guess, I will be able to do
it.

2009/9/25 Graham Breed 

> Stefan Thomas wrote:
>
>> Dear Graham,
>> absolutely, I would like to define a list of notenames, for e.g. pitches
>> that are about 15cents lower, But I have no idea how to do it, when I use
>> the HE-font for the accidentals.
>>
>
> For the code I have, pitch names are defined as:
>
> HEPitchNames = #`(
>  (c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 0))
>  (g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 10/1023))
>  (edown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 -75/1096))
>  (bflatseven . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 -162/247))
>  (d . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 20/1023))
>
> and so on.
>
> If you want more pitches, you add them.  The parameters are documented for
> ly:make-pitch under Scheme Functions.
>
>  Off course, I had a look in makam.ly
>> and I found there
>> makamGlyphs = #`((1 . "accidentals.doublesharp")
>>   (8/9 . "accidentals.sharp.slashslashslash.stemstem")
>>  )
>> But how could I define a "Helmholtz-Glyph"?
>>
>
> This table is different when you use an external font.  The relevant table,
> as I have it, starts like this:
>
> HEStrings = #`(
>(0  "\x6e" (0 . 1) (-0.5 . 0.5))
>(10/1023  "\x6e" (0 . 0.6) (-0.5 . 0.5))
>(-75/1096  "\x6d" (0 . 0.6) (-1.1 . 0.5))
>(-162/247  "\x3c\x65" (-2 . 2) (-0.5 . 0.5))
>(20/1023  "\x6e" (0 . 0.6) (-1.1 . 0.5))
>
> In each of those lists, the first entry is the alteration in whole tones
> (1/1 = 200 cents).  The second entry is the UTF-8 encoded string to display.
>  The other two pairs are the X- and Y-extents that determine how much space
> LilyPond allows for the accidentals.  We currently don't know how to make
> sensible guesses for these so they have to be hard coded.
>
> The alteration for very accidental in the first table has to match a row in
> the second one.
>
>
>Graham
>
>
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Graham,
what I don't understand:
How many cents are an alteration of 10/1023?

2009/9/25 Graham Breed 

> Stefan Thomas wrote:
>
>> Dear Graham,
>> absolutely, I would like to define a list of notenames, for e.g. pitches
>> that are about 15cents lower, But I have no idea how to do it, when I use
>> the HE-font for the accidentals.
>>
>
> For the code I have, pitch names are defined as:
>
> HEPitchNames = #`(
>  (c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 0))
>  (g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 10/1023))
>  (edown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 -75/1096))
>  (bflatseven . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 -162/247))
>  (d . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 20/1023))
>
> and so on.
>
> If you want more pitches, you add them.  The parameters are documented for
> ly:make-pitch under Scheme Functions.
>
>  Off course, I had a look in makam.ly
>> and I found there
>> makamGlyphs = #`((1 . "accidentals.doublesharp")
>>   (8/9 . "accidentals.sharp.slashslashslash.stemstem")
>>  )
>> But how could I define a "Helmholtz-Glyph"?
>>
>
> This table is different when you use an external font.  The relevant table,
> as I have it, starts like this:
>
> HEStrings = #`(
>(0  "\x6e" (0 . 1) (-0.5 . 0.5))
>(10/1023  "\x6e" (0 . 0.6) (-0.5 . 0.5))
>(-75/1096  "\x6d" (0 . 0.6) (-1.1 . 0.5))
>(-162/247  "\x3c\x65" (-2 . 2) (-0.5 . 0.5))
>(20/1023  "\x6e" (0 . 0.6) (-1.1 . 0.5))
>
> In each of those lists, the first entry is the alteration in whole tones
> (1/1 = 200 cents).  The second entry is the UTF-8 encoded string to display.
>  The other two pairs are the X- and Y-extents that determine how much space
> LilyPond allows for the accidentals.  We currently don't know how to make
> sensible guesses for these so they have to be hard coded.
>
> The alteration for very accidental in the first table has to match a row in
> the second one.
>
>
>Graham
>
>
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Graham Breed]

Stefan Thomas wrote:


what I don't understand:
How many cents are an alteration of 10/1023?


It's a fraction of 200 cents.  So 200 * 10/1023 = 2000/1023 
= 1.955... cents, which looks like a schisma.



Graham


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Ok, I've understood this now.
In the meantime, I tried to make my own microtone-uitchtable.
But, unfortunately, it doesn't work.
I always get the error message:

> stefansMikrotoene.ly:32:6: warning: Could not find glyph-name for
> alteration -162/247
>
I don't understand how to make use of the HE-font, when defining the
alteration signs.
Here is my short snippet:
\version "2.13.3"
\paper{
#(define fonts (make-pango-font-tree "Century Schoolbook L"
  "HE"
  "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono"
 1))
}


HEPitchNames = #`(
 (c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 0))
 (g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 10/1023))
 (edown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 -75/1096))
 (bflatseven . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 -162/247))
 (d . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 20/1023))
)

HEStrings = #`(
   (0  "\x6e" (0 . 1) (-0.5 . 0.5))
   (10/1023  "\x6e" (0 . 0.6) (-0.5 . 0.5))
   (-75/1096  "\x6d" (0 . 0.6) (-1.1 . 0.5))
   (-162/247  "\x3c\x65" (-2 . 2) (-0.5 . 0.5))
   (20/1023  "\x6e" (0 . 0.6) (-1.1 . 0.5))
)
pitchnames = \HEPitchNames
#(ly:parser-set-note-names parser pitchnames)

\relative c' {
  c 1 bflatseven
}

2009/9/25 Graham Breed 

> Stefan Thomas wrote:
>
>  what I don't understand:
>> How many cents are an alteration of 10/1023?
>>
>
> It's a fraction of 200 cents.  So 200 * 10/1023 = 2000/1023 = 1.955...
> cents, which looks like a schisma.
>
>
>Graham
>
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 25 Sep 2009, at 14:44, Graham Breed wrote:


what I don't understand:
How many cents are an alteration of 10/1023?


It's a fraction of 200 cents.  So 200 * 10/1023 = 2000/1023 =  
1.955... cents, which looks like a schisma.


From my computations, it corresponds choosing an approximation in  
E12276 (tonestep 7181) of the interval ratio (3/2) which gives an  
accuracy of -3.33477112590685e-05 cents. How did you choose this?


It might be more natural to choose from the series of successive  
continued fraction convergents of log2(3/2):
  0/1, 1/1, 1/2, 3/5, 7/12, 24/41, 31/53, 179/306, 389/665,  
9126/15601, ...

Or E12, E41, E53, E306, E665, E15601, ...

E665 is less acurate that your choice, but within 0.000113647342336876  
cents; E15601 is better: -2.01904306607048e-06 cents. E306 is good,  
too: -0.00578344833810363 cents.


  Hans






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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Community,
I've already defined some microtonal pitchnames
But, unfortunately I have problems with the correct spacing.
Especially I don't understand why the distance between the barline and the
cis is better if it is a whole note but not, if it is a quartenote.
Here the snippet:
\version "2.13.3"

\include "stefansMikrotoene.ly"
\relative c' {

c co coo cih cis cis cis cis
c4 co coo cih cis 1
}

2009/9/25 Hans Aberg 

> On 25 Sep 2009, at 14:44, Graham Breed wrote:
>
>  what I don't understand:
>>> How many cents are an alteration of 10/1023?
>>>
>>
>> It's a fraction of 200 cents.  So 200 * 10/1023 = 2000/1023 = 1.955...
>> cents, which looks like a schisma.
>>
>
> From my computations, it corresponds choosing an approximation in E12276
> (tonestep 7181) of the interval ratio (3/2) which gives an accuracy of
> -3.33477112590685e-05 cents. How did you choose this?
>
> It might be more natural to choose from the series of successive continued
> fraction convergents of log2(3/2):
>  0/1, 1/1, 1/2, 3/5, 7/12, 24/41, 31/53, 179/306, 389/665, 9126/15601, ...
> Or E12, E41, E53, E306, E665, E15601, ...
>
> E665 is less acurate that your choice, but within 0.000113647342336876
> cents; E15601 is better: -2.01904306607048e-06 cents. E306 is good, too:
> -0.00578344833810363 cents.
>
>  Hans
>
>
>
>
>


stefansMikrotoene.ly
Description: Binary data
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 25 Sep 2009, at 21:59, Stefan Thomas wrote:


I've already defined some microtonal pitchnames
But, unfortunately I have problems with the correct spacing.
Especially I don't understand why the distance between the barline  
and the cis is better if it is a whole note but not, if it is a  
quartenote.


I think it was mentioned somewhere in this thread that the microtonal  
font adds extra spacing.


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Graham Breed]

Stefan Thomas wrote:

Ok, I've understood this now.
In the meantime, I tried to make my own microtone-uitchtable.
But, unfortunately, it doesn't work.
I always get the error message:


stefansMikrotoene.ly:32:6: warning: Could not find glyph-name for
alteration -162/247


That says it's a warning, not an error, so it shouldn't stop 
anything working.  To get rid of it you have to define a 
valid glyph for each alteration even when you don't use them.




I don't understand how to make use of the HE-font, when defining the
alteration signs.
Here is my short snippet:



It's too short.  You've taken out the support code for the 
arbitrary accidentals.  Also, this part:




\paper{
#(define fonts (make-pango-font-tree "Century Schoolbook L"
  "HE"
  "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono"
 1))
}


looks out of date.  I used to do it that way, but there's a 
better way to set the font.



   Graham



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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 26 Sep 2009, at 07:10, Graham Breed wrote:


I always get the error message:

stefansMikrotoene.ly:32:6: warning: Could not find glyph-name for
alteration -162/247


That says it's a warning, not an error, so it shouldn't stop  
anything working.  To get rid of it you have to define a valid glyph  
for each alteration even when you don't use them.


Isn't the lookup dynamic, so one only gets a warning when it actually  
needs a glyph for an alteration? - But it is a good idea to define a  
glyph for each alteration.


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Graham Breed]

Hans Aberg wrote:

Isn't the lookup dynamic, so one only gets a warning when it actually 
needs a glyph for an alteration? - But it is a good idea to define a 
glyph for each alteration.


Yes, but we've overridden the glyph lookup to use strings 
from external fonts.  There's no need to define glyphs at 
all except to suppress this warning.  It's there because 
some redundant code is still being executed.  If we knew the 
right plumbing we wouldn't need them at all, and should be 
able to leave the X- and Y-extents implicit.  But this is 
the current state of the art.



 Graham


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Robin Bannister]

Stefan Thomas wrote:  
 I don't understand why the distance between the barline and the cis 
 is better if it is a whole note but not, if it is a quarter note. 
 
 
Well, the whole note has more room because it isn't sharing the measure 
with any other notes.
But the barline collision is a direct consequence of the extra-offset 
you are applying via StefansStringsOffsets:(-1 . 0).   
 
 
 
 I have problems with the correct spacing.   
 
 
I suggest that you may not need these (errorprone) lists of 
spacing constants,e.g.  you can derive the Y-extent as 
 
 \override Accidental #'Y-extent = #(lambda (grob)

(ly:stencil-extent (ly:text-interface::print grob) Y))
 
The same goes for X-extent, but here you can apply a correction for 
the inbuilt font padding, similar to my suggestion in 
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-09/msg00339.html  
 
 \override Accidental #'X-extent = #(lambda (grob)
   (interval-translate (ly:stencil-extent 
 (ly:text-interface::print grob) X) -0.5))
 
Feel free to adjust this value of 0.5  -  it was only provisional.  
In fact it should really be scaled for non-default font sizes.



Cheers,
Robin


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 26 Sep 2009, at 11:01, Graham Breed wrote:

Isn't the lookup dynamic, so one only gets a warning when it  
actually needs a glyph for an alteration? - But it is a good idea  
to define a glyph for each alteration.


Yes, but we've overridden the glyph lookup to use strings from  
external fonts.  There's no need to define glyphs at all except to  
suppress this warning.  It's there because some redundant code is  
still being executed.  If we knew the right plumbing we wouldn't  
need them at all, and should be able to leave the X- and Y-extents  
implicit.  But this is the current state of the art.


Thanks for the explanation. I recall that: LilyPond has more than one  
glyph-finding model. That was a problem with the key signatures, I  
think, which could not use those from external fonts.


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 25 Sep 2009, at 08:42, Graham Breed wrote:


For the code I have, pitch names are defined as:

HEPitchNames = #`(
 (c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 0))
 (g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 10/1023))
 (edown . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 -75/1096))
 (bflatseven . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 -162/247))
 (d . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 20/1023))

and so on.


Why are the octave numbers here -1?

  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Valentin Villenave]

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:45 AM, Graham Breed  wrote:
> You install them wherever fonts go on your system.  That may sound vague
> but, of course, it depends on your system.  I think there's a special folder
> LilyPond looks in as well but I'd have to check the documentation to find
> it, same as you.

I haven't tested it, but there must be a way to include the font files
in the same folder as the .ly source and just include them in the
source using

#(ly:font-config-add-font myfont.otf)

or something like that?

This way you'll be able to distribute your source code as a single
compressed directory, ready to compile. (Provided the font's licence
allows you to do so, of course.)

Cheers,
Valentin


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 25 Sep 2009, at 13:13, Stefan Thomas wrote:


How many cents are an alteration of 10/1023?


I made some Haskell functions that compute these; I use Hugs , but perhaps somebody can translate it to Scheme code.


For example, for E12276, LilyPond scale degree 4 (note G relative C),  
and interval ratio 3/2 (Just perfect fifth), the LilyPond alteration  
ratio with offset in cents is:

  LilyPond> lyalt (12276) 4 (3/2)
  (10 % 1023,-3.33477112590685e-05)
Rational number ratios are written with % in Haskell, so this is  
10/1023, and the second component is -3.33477112590685e-05 cents -  
approximation is a bit lower than 3/2.


If one wants to know which ET is used, compute the pitch as a fraction  
of an octave:

  LilyPond> lyp 4 (10/1023)
  7181 % 12276
As this is fraction of an octave, the denominator gives the ET: E12276.

  Hans



LilyPond.hs
Description: Binary data





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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 26 Sep 2009, at 19:33, Torsten Anders wrote:

For the record please find the final version of the code for  
Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond attached, ...


My editor says that the encoding of HE-Lily-header.ly isn't UTF-8, but  
Mac OS Roman.


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Robin,
thanks for Your very good advice!
I made a success, but I'm still not totally happy.
By the way, what's the problem with the font-including?
It works properly, for me. I still have a problem with spacing.
I guess I have these problems, because I dont understand what the lines

> \override Accidental #'X-extent = #(lambda (grob)
>   (interval-translate (ly:stencil-extent (ly:text-interface::print
> grob) X) -0.9))
>
>  \override Accidental #'Y-extent = #(lambda (grob)
>(ly:stencil-extent (ly:text-interface::print grob) Y) )
>
exactly do!

Here is my new snippet:
\version "2.12.0"


% Define tunings:
\paper{
#(define fonts (make-pango-font-tree "Century Schoolbook L"
  "HE"
  "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono"
 1))
}

#(define-public VierteltonBSYMBOL -1/4)
#(define-public SyntohochSYMBOL 1/12)
#(define-public ZweiSyntohochSYMBOL 1/6)
#(define-public Vierteltonkreuz 1/4)
#(define-public VLAT -1/10)
#(define-public FVLAT -3/5)
#(define-public SVLAT 2/5)

StefansPitchnames = #`(
(c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 NATURAL))
(cis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP))
(g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 NATURAL))
(gis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP))


(ceh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 VierteltonBSYMBOL))
(c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 NATURAL))
(cih . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 Vierteltonkreuz))

(g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 NATURAL))
 (co . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SyntohochSYMBOL))
 (coo . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 ZweiSyntohochSYMBOL))
)




FONTNAME = "HE"


NATURALSYMBOL = "Ñ"
VierteltonBSYMBOL = "ç"
Vierteltonkreuz = "è"
FLATSYMBOL = "e"
SHARPSYMBOL = "Ø"
DFLATSYMBOL = "Ã"
DSHARPSYMBOL = "ß"
SyntohochSYMBOL = "o"
ZweiSyntohochSYMBOL = "p"





StefansStrings = #`(
   (-1/4 . ,VierteltonBSYMBOL)
   (1/4 .   ,Vierteltonkreuz)
   (0 . ,NATURALSYMBOL)
   (1/2 .   ,SHARPSYMBOL)
   (-1/2 .  ,FLATSYMBOL)
   (-1 .,DFLATSYMBOL)
   ( 1 .,DSHARPSYMBOL)
(1/12 . ,SyntohochSYMBOL)
 (1/6 . ,ZweiSyntohochSYMBOL)

)

\layout {
  \context {
\Score
\override KeySignature #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
\override KeySignature #'font-name = #FONTNAME
\override Accidental #'stencil = #(lambda (grob) (box-stencil
(ly:text-interface::print grob) 0 0))
\override Accidental #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
\override Accidental #'font-name = #FONTNAME
\override Accidental #'text = #(lambda (grob)
 (cdr (assoc (ly:grob-property grob 'alteration)
  StefansStrings)))
 \override Accidental #'X-extent = #(lambda (grob)
  (interval-translate (ly:stencil-extent (ly:text-interface::print grob)
X) -0.9))

 \override Accidental #'Y-extent = #(lambda (grob)
   (ly:stencil-extent (ly:text-interface::print grob) Y) )
  }
}

pitchnames = \StefansPitchnames

#(ly:parser-set-note-names parser pitchnames)
% the "Score"

\new Staff
   \relative c' {

  c co coo cih |
  cis cis cis cis | % the sharp sign is too much left!
c co coo cih |
gis' gis gis gis | % the note and the sharp sign are too much right!
}
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Hans,

On 26.09.2009, at 19:17, Hans Aberg wrote:

On 26 Sep 2009, at 19:33, Torsten Anders wrote:


For the record please find the final version of the code for
Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond attached, ...


My editor says that the encoding of HE-Lily-header.ly isn't UTF-8,
but Mac OS Roman.


Thanks for your feedback.

Do you have any trouble reading this file? Its content is pure ASCII.
Seemingly, Aquamacs saves default files into Mac OS Roman, but there
shouldn't be any character in the file for which that actually
matters. Of course, line endings are in UNIX convention instead of
windows.

Best
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de







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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Robin Bannister]

Stefan Thomas wrote:   

   cis cis cis cis | % the sharp sign is too much left!
   
   gis' gis gis gis | % the note and the sharp sign are too much right!


Well, erm, how far do we want to get into fine-tuning?   

OK, it looks like you only want one glyph at a time. 

Torsten wanted several; he used markup to declare them in a group.   
And to keep a group looking cohesive he wanted more spacing on the left.   
Theinterval-translate   hack killed two birds with one stone:   
- put the group closer to its note 
- effectively padded it on the left.

But if you want less (or no) padding on the left, try this instead:

 \override Accidental #'X-extent = #(lambda (grob)

   (let ((iv (ly:stencil-extent (ly:text-interface::print grob) X)))
 (cons (- (interval-start iv) 0.1) (- (interval-end iv) 0.7

It lets you adjust left (0.1)  and right (0.7)  separately.



I don't want to get involved in more detailed fine-tuning, 
but I did try out a test case based on your gis measure:   
 juxtapose feta and HE and then get them to match (see feta_HE.png). 
That is how I arrived at the values above. 
But of course that is just for the sharp sign ...

And before I could start measuring the two sets of spacing, 
I found I had to shrink the HE sharp to make it comparable!   

 \override Accidental #'font-size = #-1



Cheers, 
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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Stefan,

Sorry for my late reply.

Stefan wrote

I was able to try out the example. There is one not convincing for me:
The default accidental is an natural. But I would like to use fis  
and ges as before.


You can easily switch to the standard Lily accidental treatment where  
the HE accidentals are then supported additionally. Quote from the  
Readme file of the HE-Lily.zip file I just sent:


  Note that this code completely disables the common Lilypond
  accidentals, because the spacing (and to some extend also the
  shape) of these and the HE accidentals differ considerably. In
  order to allow for the common Lilypond accidentals anyway, comment
  the three Lilypond code lines in the score layout section that set
  accidentals to be written written as markups by default and sets
  the default HE accidental.

Nevertheless, I feel in most situations you actually want an  
accidental for every note (including naturals) in order to avoid  
misunderstandings. In fact, the published scores using HE notation  
tend to do this.


Wouldnt it a possibilitie to define new pitch-names, like it has  
been done in the makam.ly?

But how can this be done?


As far as I understand, the approach of the makam.ly example allows  
only for one single accidental per note. Question to the Lily-gurus:  
is that actually correct?


With the HE notation however, you can theoretically have an arbitrary  
number of accidentals per note. For example, a single note C sharp may  
be raised by two septimal commas and flattened by a 11-comma, so you  
have 3-4 (!) accidentals that are assigned to a single note head (the  
2 septimal commas can be drawn as 1 or 2 accidentals). Also, in just  
intonation you have an unlimited number of different pitches in  
principle. So, you would need an unlimited number of different note  
names if you want fully generic support. At least you would need a  
pretty large number of note names, even if you only want to cover some  
subset of the pitch lattice. For example, if you allow for only up to  
2 Pythagorean accidentals in each direction, 3 syntonic commas in each  
direction (HE has special single signs for these), up to two septimal  
commas, one 11-comma, one 13-comma, one 17-comma, one 19-comma, one 23- 
comma etc., then the required number of note names is the number of  
all possible combinations of these times the seven nominals C, D, E, F  
and so forth. So, we would need (if I get this math right, others are  
welcome to correct :)


  5 (Pythagorean accidentals) * 7 (syntonic) * 5 * 3 * 3 * 3 * 3 * 3  
(etc.) * 7

  = 297,675

different note names. I feel this number of note names gets impractical.

I therefore feel the approach inserting some \HE   
is more generic and still pretty concise.


Best
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de








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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 26 Sep 2009, at 22:26, Torsten Anders wrote:


For the record please find the final version of the code for
Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond attached, ...


My editor says that the encoding of HE-Lily-header.ly isn't UTF-8,
but Mac OS Roman.


Thanks for your feedback.

Do you have any trouble reading this file? Its content is pure ASCII.


Line 169 has spurious character  at the end. Looks like:
  %% show the markup extend as box (for debugging)ß


Seemingly, Aquamacs saves default files into Mac OS Roman, but there
shouldn't be any character in the file for which that actually
matters. Of course, line endings are in UNIX convention instead of
windows.


I use Xcode when ensuring pure text files in UTF-8 without metadata.

  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

Dear Hans,

Thank you for your careful checking of this file.

On 26.09.2009, at 21:58, Hans Aberg wrote:


On 26 Sep 2009, at 22:26, Torsten Anders wrote:


For the record please find the final version of the code for
Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond attached, ...


My editor says that the encoding of HE-Lily-header.ly isn't UTF-8,
but Mac OS Roman.


Thanks for your feedback.

Do you have any trouble reading this file? Its content is pure ASCII.


Line 169 has spurious character  at the end. Looks like:
 %% show the markup extend as box (for debugging)ß


Oops. Actually, I read this char as §, but it is certainly not  
necessary there. Anyway, it is a comment. Do you have any problems  
running Lilypond with this file?



Seemingly, Aquamacs saves default files into Mac OS Roman, but there
shouldn't be any character in the file for which that actually
matters. Of course, line endings are in UNIX convention instead of
windows.


I use Xcode when ensuring pure text files in UTF-8 without metadata.


I see. I would not have expected Emacs/Aquamacs having any problems  
saving plain text files...


Best
Torsten



 Hans





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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 26 Sep 2009, at 23:58, Torsten Anders wrote:


Line 169 has spurious character  at the end. Looks like:
%% show the markup extend as box (for debugging)ß


Oops. Actually, I read this char as §, but it is certainly not  
necessary there. Anyway, it is a comment. Do you have any problems  
running Lilypond with this file?


I did not try. As it is in a comment, it should not matter, unless  
lilypond checks for UTF-8 consistency, in which case the file of  
course is illegal.



Seemingly, Aquamacs saves default files into Mac OS Roman, but there
shouldn't be any character in the file for which that actually
matters. Of course, line endings are in UNIX convention instead of
windows.


I use Xcode when ensuring pure text files in UTF-8 without metadata.


I see. I would not have expected Emacs/Aquamacs having any problems  
saving plain text files...


I use Fink emacs, which has an X11 GUI - MacPorts emacs I think did  
not have that. For some reason it did not work well with UTF-8. But it  
is better with UNIX permissions. So when root, I use emacs, which is  
also my environment variable EDITOR, and otherwise Xcode. I make new  
files in Terminal using 'touch', or 'cp' on an old. Then 'open' is  
useful (try 'open .' if you haven't done that).


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Graham Breed]

Hans Aberg wrote:

Thanks for the explanation. I recall that: LilyPond has more than one 
glyph-finding model. That was a problem with the key signatures, I 
think, which could not use those from external fonts.


Lilypond has one glyph-finding model for accidentals, and 
the hooks to allow us to override it.  All kinds of things 
are cumbersome or don't work when we do so.  Grace notes are 
another one I noticed.  But at least it's now fairly 
straightforward to get accidentals from arbitrary fonts -- 
with alternative tunings -- where it was basically 
impossible before the pitch model was changed.



  Graham


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Hans Aberg]

On 27 Sep 2009, at 05:36, Graham Breed wrote:

Thanks for the explanation. I recall that: LilyPond has more than  
one glyph-finding model. That was a problem with the key  
signatures, I think, which could not use those from external fonts.


Lilypond has one glyph-finding model for accidentals, and the hooks  
to allow us to override it.  All kinds of things are cumbersome or  
don't work when we do so.  Grace notes are another one I noticed.


Ornaments like trills and turns are entered on the markup level, which  
is cumbersome if there are a lot of chromatic alterations. And they  
can't be output to MIDI - I think someone started to work on this.


But at least it's now fairly straightforward to get accidentals from  
arbitrary fonts -- with alternative tunings -- where it was  
basically impossible before the pitch model was changed.


I wasn't aware of that the pitch model has changed. Is there a  
description available somewhere?


I am thinking a bit on how to typeset the order of accidentals of  
different type; inputs welcome. An example illustrating the general  
problem:


Suppose one has the Persian koron p = -3 and sori > = +2 syntonic  
commas in Pythagorean tuning, and another accidental + which raises  
2.5 commas. Then it is natural to write p+, from larger to smaller  
alteration.


But should one keep the Persian sori first and write >+, or would one  
prefer the larger to smaller order +> of these accidentals?


  Hans




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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Community,
I have now defined a table for mictotones (I use the division of 12 of the
whole tone, which is not 100 percent just intonation).
The spacing, I guess, is ok, I only get problems, sometimes, at the
beginning of a measure.
I've defined for that the variable "machplatz" ("makespace", if you
translate into english).
There are tow more things I would like to know:

   1. The new accidentals are also played via midi, which is great. But not,
   when different accidentals are in a chord. Is there a possibilitie to change
   this?
   2. How can I define the accidental-style neo-modern for the whole score?

Here now the file:
\version "2.12.0"


% Define tunings:
\paper{
#(define fonts (make-pango-font-tree "Century Schoolbook L"
  "HE"
  "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono"
 1))
}
#(define-public SHARPSYMBOL 1/2)
#(define-public SHARPSYMBOL -1/2)
#(define-public Vierteltonkreuz 1/4)
#(define-public VierteltonBSYMBOL -1/4)
#(define-public SyntohochAufloesungszeichen 1/12)
#(define-public ZweiSyntohochAufloesungszeichen 1/6)
#(define-public ZweiSyntotiefKreuz 1/3)
#(define-public SyntotiefKreuz 5/12)
#(define-public SyntohochKreuz 7/12)
#(define-public ZweiSyntohochKreuz 2/3)
#(define-public SyntotiefAufloesungszeichen -1/12)
#(define-public ZweiSyntotiefAufloesungszeichen -1/6)
#(define-public ZweiSyntohochBe -1/3)
#(define-public SyntohochBe -5/12)
#(define-public SyntotiefBe -7/12)
#(define-public ZweiSyntotiefBe -2/3)



StefansPitchnames = #`(
(ceses . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 DOUBLE-FLAT))
(ces . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 FLAT))
(c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 NATURAL))
(cis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SHARP))
(cisis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 DOUBLE-SHARP))
(deses . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 DOUBLE-FLAT))
(des . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 FLAT))
(d . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 NATURAL))
(dis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SHARP))
(disis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 DOUBLE-SHARP))
(eeses . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 DOUBLE-FLAT))
(ees . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT))
(es . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 FLAT))
(e . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 NATURAL))
(eis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SHARP))
(eisis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 DOUBLE-SHARP))
(feses . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 DOUBLE-FLAT))
(fes . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 FLAT))
(f . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 NATURAL))
(fis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 SHARP))
(fisis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 DOUBLE-SHARP))
(geses . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 DOUBLE-FLAT))
(ges . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 FLAT))
(g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 NATURAL))
(gis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 SHARP))
(gisis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 DOUBLE-SHARP))
(aeses . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 DOUBLE-FLAT))
(aes . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT))
(as . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 FLAT))
(a . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 NATURAL))
(ais . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 SHARP))
(aisis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 DOUBLE-SHARP))
(beses . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 DOUBLE-FLAT))
(bes . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 FLAT))
(b . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 NATURAL))
(bis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 SHARP))
(bisis . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 DOUBLE-SHARP))


(ceh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 VierteltonBSYMBOL))
(c . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 NATURAL))
(cih . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 Vierteltonkreuz))



(deh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 VierteltonBSYMBOL))
(d . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 NATURAL))
(dih . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 Vierteltonkreuz))


(eeh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 VierteltonBSYMBOL))
(e . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 NATURAL))
(eih . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 Vierteltonkreuz))



(feh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 VierteltonBSYMBOL))
(f . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 NATURAL))
(fih . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 3 Vierteltonkreuz))

(geh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 VierteltonBSYMBOL))
(g . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 NATURAL))
(gih . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 4 Vierteltonkreuz))

(aeh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 VierteltonBSYMBOL))
(a . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 NATURAL))
(aih . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 5 Vierteltonkreuz))


(beh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 VierteltonBSYMBOL))
(b . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 NATURAL))
(bih . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 6 Vierteltonkreuz))

 (ch . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SyntohochAufloesungszeichen))
 (chh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 ZweiSyntohochAufloesungszeichen))
 (cistt . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 ZweiSyntotiefKreuz))
 (cist . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SyntotiefKreuz))
 (cish . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SyntohochKreuz))
 (cishh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 ZweiSyntohochKreuz))

 (dh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SyntohochAufloesungszeichen))
 (dhh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 ZweiSyntohochAufloesungszeichen))
 (distt . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 ZweiSyntotiefKreuz))
 (dist . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SyntotiefKreuz))
 (dish . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 SyntohochKreuz))
 (dishh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 1 ZweiSyntohochKreuz))

 (eh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 2 SyntohochAufloesungszeichen))
 (ehh . ,(ly:make-pitch -1

Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Graham Breed]

Stefan Thomas wrote:


   1. The new accidentals are also played via midi, which is great. But not,
   when different accidentals are in a chord. Is there a possibilitie to change
   this?


Yeah, you have to split it into separate contrapuntal lines. 
 I've used a contraption of include files so that I can run 
Lilypond differently to get MIDI and score output.  For MIDI 
you need each line on a different channel (it's in the 
documentation, a snippet I think).  For the score you need 
to bring the different lines into the same voice so that 
chords look like chords.


I don't remember the details, but it's all in my Tripod code.

It would be nice to use MIDI Tuning Standard messages 
instead of pitch bends.  Maybe I could sort that out with a 
post processor but I haven't because I'm lazy.



   2. How can I define the accidental-style neo-modern for the whole score?


Dunno about that.


   Graham


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Re: Microtonal Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond: fine-tuning

[Torsten Anders]

On 26.09.2009, at 18:33, Torsten Anders wrote:
For the record please find the final version of the code for  
Helmholtz-Ellis notation in Lilypond attached.


Just a brief warning. This approach does not work with \afterGrace  
(\grace is fine). There might be other corner cases...


Best
Torsten




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Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Harald Christiansen]

Hi,

I need to add some supplemental white space between piano staff lines (to
avoid a crowded look and near clashes).

I looked long and hard at TFM _and_ whatever snippets I could find, but
unfortunately I am still none the wiser :|

The only thing that I found (and made sense to me) was the global page
settings, but I don't want to change the global parameters, only to fine
tune and add some vertical space between selected piano staff rows.

I found some examples that may have what I want but when I tried them on my
score didn't make any difference. I guess I misunderstand the whole stuff.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks.

Regards.
-- 

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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Simon Albrecht]

On 17.06.2016 02:28, Harald Christiansen wrote:

Hi,

I need to add some supplemental white space between piano staff lines 
(to avoid a crowded look and near clashes).


I looked long and hard at TFM _and_ whatever snippets I could find, 
but unfortunately I am still none the wiser :|


The only thing that I found (and made sense to me) was the global page 
settings, but I don't want to change the global parameters, only to 
fine tune and add some vertical space between selected piano staff rows.


It’s intentional that you can normally only change global behaviour, to 
ensure a consistent spacing. The only proper possibility (apart from 
adding invisible objects, which would be really nasty and hard to 
maintain) seems using explicit staff and system positioning 
.


HTH, Simon

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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Noeck]

Hi Harald,

while a custom positioning of one or two staves seems like a reasonable
way to go, your question sounds a bit different:

>> I need to add some supplemental white space between piano staff lines
>> (to avoid a crowded look and near clashes).

LilyPond already tries to avoid clashes and I think instead of moving or
spacing staves, this is the point to tweak the result: You can add
padding or increase the extent of an object. Then LilyPond will take
this into account when spacing the score.

Here is an example:



 \version "2.18.2"

 \new PianoStaff <<
   \new Staff {
 a1 \break
 \once \override NoteHead.minimum-Y-extent = #'(-20 . 0)
 % or: \tweak #'minimum-Y-extent #'(-20 . 0)
 a b \break
 c
   }
   \new Staff { \clef "bass" a b' c'  c }
 >>



It adds 20 staff spaces to the bounding box of the note a on the
negative side (-20). If you compile with Frescobaldi's "display
skylines" option, you can see the box in aqua color (light blue).

The note head might not be the best example but you can choose the
object that is closest to the upper/lower staff, the one that you want
to have more space.

I could not find the setting which I suppose is similar to
\papger { annotate-spacing = ##t }
such that you can directly use the normal lilypond and see the skylines.
Maybe someone can point me to it...

Cheers,
Joram



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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Simon Albrecht]

On 19.06.2016 13:36, Noeck wrote:

I could not find the setting which I suppose is similar to
\paper { annotate-spacing = ##t }
such that you can directly use the normal lilypond and see the skylines.
Maybe someone can point me to it...


#(ly:set-option 'debug-skylines #t)

HTH, Simon

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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Thomas Morley]

2016-06-19 13:36 GMT+02:00 Noeck :

> I could not find the setting which I suppose is similar to
> \papger { annotate-spacing = ##t }
> such that you can directly use the normal lilypond and see the skylines.
> Maybe someone can point me to it...
>
> Cheers,
> Joram

In-file at top-level:
#(ly:set-option 'debug-skylines #t)

or use the command-line option:
-ddebug-skylines

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Noeck]

> #(ly:set-option 'debug-skylines #t)

Thanks, Simon and Harm!

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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Harald Christiansen]

Hi Joram,

Unfortunately "\once \override NoteHead.minimum-Y-extent = #'(-20 . 0)"
gives me a horrible result:
- the note stem is extended
- it increases the space between the piano staves (i.e. between the G clef
staff and the F staff clef) which I don't want.

And yes I want to add padding between two specific piano staves.

What I think/guess I need is the padding in staffgroup-staff-spacing
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/internals/staffgrouper
applied only \once between two staff groups.
But what I tried didn't work.

...

I tried to enable the Frescobaldi's display skylines (hidden inside Tools
-> Layout Control Options, took me a while to find out) but I couldn't see
any "blue lines",
only blue boxes associated with notes and other elements. Maybe I'm doing
something wrong ...

Thanks.

Regards.


On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Noeck  wrote:

> Hi Harald,
>
> while a custom positioning of one or two staves seems like a reasonable
> way to go, your question sounds a bit different:
>
> >> I need to add some supplemental white space between piano staff lines
> >> (to avoid a crowded look and near clashes).
>
> LilyPond already tries to avoid clashes and I think instead of moving or
> spacing staves, this is the point to tweak the result: You can add
> padding or increase the extent of an object. Then LilyPond will take
> this into account when spacing the score.
>
> Here is an example:
>
> 
>
>  \version "2.18.2"
>
>  \new PianoStaff <<
>\new Staff {
>  a1 \break
>  \once \override NoteHead.minimum-Y-extent = #'(-20 . 0)
>  % or: \tweak #'minimum-Y-extent #'(-20 . 0)
>  a b \break
>  c
>}
>\new Staff { \clef "bass" a b' c'  c }
>  >>
>
> 
>
> It adds 20 staff spaces to the bounding box of the note a on the
> negative side (-20). If you compile with Frescobaldi's "display
> skylines" option, you can see the box in aqua color (light blue).
>
> The note head might not be the best example but you can choose the
> object that is closest to the upper/lower staff, the one that you want
> to have more space.
>
> I could not find the setting which I suppose is similar to
> \papger { annotate-spacing = ##t }
> such that you can directly use the normal lilypond and see the skylines.
> Maybe someone can point me to it...
>
> Cheers,
> Joram
>
>
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>
>


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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Harald Christiansen]

Thanks Simon,

Unfortunately the page you are referring to, points to (hard) anchoring
linked relative to page, while I want flexible/relative space anchored to
the staff above, i.e. some padding.

Something like the 'glue' concept in TeX, the \vspace in LaTeX.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 10:27 PM, Simon Albrecht 
wrote:

> On 17.06.2016 02:28, Harald Christiansen wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I need to add some supplemental white space between piano staff lines (to
>> avoid a crowded look and near clashes).
>>
>> I looked long and hard at TFM _and_ whatever snippets I could find, but
>> unfortunately I am still none the wiser :|
>>
>> The only thing that I found (and made sense to me) was the global page
>> settings, but I don't want to change the global parameters, only to fine
>> tune and add some vertical space between selected piano staff rows.
>>
>
> It’s intentional that you can normally only change global behaviour, to
> ensure a consistent spacing. The only proper possibility (apart from adding
> invisible objects, which would be really nasty and hard to maintain) seems
> using explicit staff and system positioning <
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/explicit-staff-and-system-positioning
> >.
>
> HTH, Simon
>



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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[DJF]

On Jun 16, 2016, at 8:28 PM, Harald Christiansen  wrote:
> 
> I need to add some supplemental white space between piano staff lines (to 
> avoid a crowded look and near clashes).

Harald,

I think you were on the right track with staffgroup spacing, but sometimes 
implementing this stuff in scores can be confusing (at least I've found it so).

I had the same issue, and, after some research, came up with a template that 
works for me. The example below is a minimal version of that. If you try 
changing the values in the \score block (basic-distance, minimum-distance, 
padding, and stretchability), you can see how each value plays a role. As long 
as the values are sensible (in relation to each other), you can get quite good 
results. I generally leave the padding at 1 or 0, most often changing the basic 
& minimum distances—just enough to make that one system look good that you’re 
trying to improve, without making all the others too spread out. It will take 
some trial and error, but it does get easier to figure out with experience.

The key bit that allows this control is removing the Vertical_align_engraver. 
Also, in the \paper block, the system-system spacing (or other spacing 
variables you might use) obviously plays a role in overall spacing, but I 
always try compiling before using any of those to see how things look before I 
start messing.

I hope this is helpful.

—
Dan


\version "2.19.39"

\paper {
%  system-system-spacing.basic-distance = #22
  indent = 0\cm
  ragged-last-bottom = ##f
}

global = { 
  \time 4/4
  \key c \major
}
  
rightOne = \relative c' {
  \global
  c4 d e f
  g a b c
  \repeat unfold 50 { c,4 d e f 
   g a b c }
  \bar "|."
}

rightTwo = \relative c' {
  \global
  \repeat unfold 51 { c4 c c c 
   c c c c }
}

leftOne = \relative c' {
  \global
  c4 b a g
  f e d c
  \repeat unfold 50 { c'4 b a g
   f e d c }
}

leftTwo = \relative c {
  \global
\repeat unfold 51 { c4 c c c 
 c c c c }
}

\score {  
  \new PianoStaff \with { \remove "Vertical_align_engraver" }
<<
\new Staff = "right" \with {   
 \override VerticalAxisGroup.default-staff-staff-spacing =
  #'((basic-distance . 12)
   (minimum-distance . 8)
   (padding . 1)
   (stretchability . 16)) } 
  { \clef treble << \rightOne \\ \rightTwo >> }

\new Staff = "left" 
  { \clef bass << \leftOne \\ \leftTwo >> }
>>
  \layout { 

}
  }

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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Noeck]

Hi Harald,

> Unfortunately "\once \override NoteHead.minimum-Y-extent = #'(-20 . 0)"
> gives me a horrible result:
> - the note stem is extended

I know, NoteHead was just an example. You did not send a minimal
example, so I can't know which objects are close in your case. I've seen
the stem problem, but I am sure one can find a grob that works. I know
it is suboptimal, but I tried to give you sth to achieve what you want.

> - it increases the space between the piano staves (i.e. between the G clef
> staff and the F staff clef) which I don't want.

How do you want to increase the space without increasing the space? I
don't understand that.

> 
> And yes I want to add padding between two specific piano staves.
> 
> What I think/guess I need is the padding in staffgroup-staff-spacing
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/internals/staffgrouper
> applied only \once between two staff groups.
> But what I tried didn't work.
> 
> ...
> 
> I tried to enable the Frescobaldi's display skylines (hidden inside Tools
> -> Layout Control Options, took me a while to find out) but I couldn't see
> any "blue lines",
> only blue boxes associated with notes and other elements. Maybe I'm doing
> something wrong ...

I see a rectangular outline (or call it boxes with lines only on one
side. I suppose we see the same thing.

Best,
Joram

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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[Harald Christiansen]

Hello Joram,

This is what I am talking about:

If you look at the "Für Elise" by Mutopia, page 3, bar 95. You will see
a E6 there.
http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BeethovenLv/WoO59/fur_Elise_WoO59/fur_Elise_WoO59-a4.pdf


The final output looks good but only because the author used

ragged-last-bottom = ##f

http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BeethovenLv/WoO59/fur_Elise_WoO59/fur_Elise_WoO59.ly

Now that may work in that particular score but it's not a general solution.

If you comment out the 'ragged-last-bottom = ##f ' you will see that the
E6 protrudes into the pedal line above.

I want a general solution for manually fine tune the space between the
PianoStaff lines, i.e. override _once_ the staffgroup-staff-spacing from
within the score

It appears that the issue is not new either. I saw some old references
(2011 etc.), but unfortunately I couldn't find the URL.

The problem is that the skyline have nooks and protrusions and they fit
into one another like cogwheels. That may be good in general but it may
occasionally require manual intervention ­— AFAIK there is no proper
mechanism to assist manual fine tuning.

So, I eventually ended up solving the problem by using \markup with a
two rows of blank strings attached to the E6, something like:
e^\markup { \override #'(baseline-skip . 5) \column { " " " " } } i.e.
adding an empty box with the desired high and depth above the note (it
also have width but I can live with that).

But it's just a hack. I was unable to find a proper general solution.

Regards. 

On 21/06/16 06:13, Noeck wrote:
> Hi Harald,
>
>> Unfortunately "\once \override NoteHead.minimum-Y-extent = #'(-20 . 0)"
>> gives me a horrible result:
>> - the note stem is extended
> I know, NoteHead was just an example. You did not send a minimal
> example, so I can't know which objects are close in your case. I've seen
> the stem problem, but I am sure one can find a grob that works. I know
> it is suboptimal, but I tried to give you sth to achieve what you want.
>
>> - it increases the space between the piano staves (i.e. between the G clef
>> staff and the F staff clef) which I don't want.
> How do you want to increase the space without increasing the space? I
> don't understand that.
>
>> And yes I want to add padding between two specific piano staves.
>>
>> What I think/guess I need is the padding in staffgroup-staff-spacing
>> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/internals/staffgrouper
>> applied only \once between two staff groups.
>> But what I tried didn't work.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I tried to enable the Frescobaldi's display skylines (hidden inside Tools
>> -> Layout Control Options, took me a while to find out) but I couldn't see
>> any "blue lines",
>> only blue boxes associated with notes and other elements. Maybe I'm doing
>> something wrong ...
> I see a rectangular outline (or call it boxes with lines only on one
> side. I suppose we see the same thing.
>
> Best,
> Joram
>
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Re: Custom / Fine tuning vertical space between piano staff lines

[DJF]

On Jun 21, 2016, at 5:57 PM, Harald Christiansen  wrote:
> 
> So, I eventually ended up solving the problem by using \markup with a
> two rows of blank strings attached to the E6, something like:
> e^\markup { \override #'(baseline-skip . 5) \column { " " " " } } i.e.
> adding an empty box with the desired high and depth above the note (it
> also have width but I can live with that).

That’s an interesting, creative solution that I wouldn’t have thought of 
trying, but it seems to have a side effect of making the next system much too 
close.

If, instead, you use something like this as your \paper block, you should get 
the same result, but with better spacing surrounding the system:

\paper {
  top-margin = 8\mm
  bottom-margin = 9\mm
  top-system-spacing.basic-distance = #12
  system-system-spacing =
  #'((basic-distance . 15.5)
   (minimum-distance . 13)
   (padding . 1)
   (stretchability . 17))
%  ragged-last-bottom = ##f
}

Another option would be to adjust the staff-height from 20 to 21. It solves the 
issue quite nicely, IMHO, but I’m not sure of your priorities.

I realize that these solutions don’t really speak to your quest of finding a 
“proper, general solution,” but at least there are ways to get fairly 
acceptable results, and without too much effort. Different scores may well 
require different solutions. If it looks good in the end, isn’t that enough?

Good luck, and if you find something else that works, I hope you’ll let us know.

—
Dan
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