Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Andrew Bernard]

Exactly the point I made. So I agree.

Perhaps add some place for policy and guidelines and mailing list FAQs o 
be made clear also. I think this info would be worthy of its own page.


Andrew


On 23/02/2023 9:50 pm, Valentin Petzel wrote:

Hi Jean,
I still think it would be a good idea to reword

https://lilypond.org/contact.html

to make it clear that subscription is wanted.

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le jeudi 23 février 2023 à 11:50 +0100, Valentin Petzel a écrit :
> Hi Jean,  
> I still think it would be a good idea to reword
> 
> [https://lilypond.org/contact.html](https://lilypond.org/contact.html)
> 
> to make it clear that subscription is wanted.


Yes, I think is an excellent suggestion. Can you submit a merge request, please?


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Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Valentin Petzel]

Hi Jean,
I still think it would be a good idea to reword

https://lilypond.org/contact.html

to make it clear that subscription is wanted.

Cheers,
Valentin

Am Mittwoch, 22. Februar 2023, 23:24:18 CET schrieb Jean Abou Samra:
> Le mardi 21 février 2023 à 23:36 +0100, Jean Abou Samra a écrit :
> > Hi,
> > I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary
> > of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they
> > should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually
> > approved. I wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the
> > other admin) would think about changing the list configuration to reject
> > post from non-members instead of holding them on moderation, with a
> > message such as “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize,
> > but in order to prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before
> > you post. Please fill out the subscription form on
> > [https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user](https://lists.gnu.
> > org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user). Once you are subscribed, you will
> > receive all posts to the list, so you can help out other people as well.
> > However, if you only wish to interact with this list infrequently, you
> > may disable mail subscription in your membership preferences after you
> > have subscribed. If you believe you are already subscribed to the list,
> > it probably means that you accidentally posted from a different email
> > address than the one you are subscribed with. If you have any question or
> > encounter problems, feel free to contact the list admins at
> > lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org” On the plus side, this means that instead of
> > delaying the message until Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come
> > instantly.
> An update on this:
> 
> It turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately, Bob Proulx, an admin
> on GNU's Mailman server, noticed the change and explained why.
> 
> The problem is
> [backscatter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_(email)). If a
> spammer sends a spam while making it look like
> it comes from a real address that is not subscribed to the list,
> the person this real address belongs to receives an automated
> message from the list, which is viewed as unsolicited. Not only is that bad
> for this person, but it leads to DNS blacklisting for lists.gnu.org,
> which affects all GNU lists badly.
> 
> I apologize for this; I didn't realize this implication at all.
> The change has been rolled back and things will just remain as they
> were before. Thank you Bob!
> 
> Jean



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Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Colin Campbell]

On 2023-02-22 16:39, Kenneth Wolcott wrote:

Hi Jean;

   I've been following this thread for some while.  I really applaud
your intentions and efforts with regards to this mailing list
management; your dedication is impressive and appreciated.


Hear, hear!

Colin

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Kenneth Wolcott]

Hi Jean;

  I've been following this thread for some while.  I really applaud
your intentions and efforts with regards to this mailing list
management; your dedication is impressive and appreciated.

Ken Wolcott

On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 2:25 PM Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
>
> Le mardi 21 février 2023 à 23:36 +0100, Jean Abou Samra a écrit :
>
> Hi,
> I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary of 
> telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they should 
> subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually approved. I 
> wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the other admin) 
> would think about changing the list configuration to reject post from 
> non-members instead of holding them on moderation, with a message such as
> “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to 
> prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please 
> fill out the subscription form on 
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user.
> Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you can 
> help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact with 
> this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your membership 
> preferences after you have subscribed.
> If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means that 
> you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one you are 
> subscribed with.
> If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the list 
> admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”
> On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until Mark 
> or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.
>
> An update on this:
>
> It turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately, Bob Proulx, an admin on 
> GNU's Mailman server, noticed the change and explained why.
>
> The problem is backscatter. If a spammer sends a spam while making it look 
> like it comes from a real address that is not subscribed to the list, the 
> person this real address belongs to receives an automated message from the 
> list, which is viewed as unsolicited. Not only is that bad for this person, 
> but it leads to DNS blacklisting for lists.gnu.org, which affects all GNU 
> lists badly.
>
> I apologize for this; I didn't realize this implication at all. The change 
> has been rolled back and things will just remain as they were before. Thank 
> you Bob!
>
> Jean

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le mardi 21 février 2023 à 23:36 +0100, Jean Abou Samra a écrit :
> Hi,  
> I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary of 
> telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they should 
> subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually approved. I 
> wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the other admin) 
> would think about changing the list configuration to reject post from 
> non-members instead of holding them on moderation, with a message such as  
> “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to 
> prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please 
> fill out the subscription form on 
> [https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user](https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user).
>   
> Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you can 
> help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact with 
> this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your membership 
> preferences after you have subscribed.  
> If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means that 
> you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one you are 
> subscribed with.  
> If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the list 
> admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”  
> On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until Mark 
> or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.  



An update on this:

It turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately, Bob Proulx, an admin
on GNU's Mailman server, noticed the change and explained why.

The problem is [backscatter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_(email)).
If a spammer sends a spam while making it look like
it comes from a real address that is not subscribed to the list,
the person this real address belongs to receives an automated
message from the list, which is viewed as unsolicited. Not only is that bad
for this person, but it leads to DNS blacklisting for lists.gnu.org,
which affects all GNU lists badly.

I apologize for this; I didn't realize this implication at all.
The change has been rolled back and things will just remain as they
were before. Thank you Bob!

Jean


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Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Wols Lists]

On 22/02/2023 06:05, Werner LEMBERG wrote:

And joining is actually pretty serious friction for some people - the
more lists I join, the more likely I am to abandon attempts to help if
I'm required to register.

I second that concern.  Being the maintainer of the FreeType mailing
lists, I face exactly the same problem.  Usually, I simply enable
messages in the queue.  If I have to do this too often, I tell people
to subscribe.

It seems, however, that the amount of new users is much larger for
LilyPond than for FreeType...


Is there an option where you can "temporarily" approve someone?

So basically the list remembers you approved a post, and for maybe the 
next 15 days it remembers and approves without moderator intervention. 
Once that time has gone, it's back to moderation.


Yes it's a bit of a pain, but it lowers friction for the drive-by 
"please help", and it lessens the work a bit for the moderators...


Cheers,
Wol

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[David Kastrup]

Jeff Kopmanis  writes:

> I'm with you, Kevin.  "mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and
> common sense", is right on target.
>
> I'm an IT professional, and I can completely sympathize and appreciate
> all that Jean deals with.  Thank You, ALL, for your largely thankless
> efforts.  You provide such a valuable service to the Lilypond
> community in support of a very powerful and somewhat complex piece of
> software.  Think how much something of this quality would cost in a
> commercial setting?!
>
> I think it'd be perfectly acceptable to auto-reply to non-members with
> a polite "Subscribe to post to this list" type of message.  If you
> can't take the time to become a member of a list/community, then there
> should be no expectation that the community will take the time to
> respond to the request.

I don't think that the LilyPond user base is of a size where elitist
thinking is providing a good basis for keeping the
user-poweruser-developer-magician pyramid stable.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[David Kastrup]

Kevin Cole  writes:

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 6:21 PM Andrew Bernard
>  wrote:
>
>> Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If
>> people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to
>> participate there's something wrong.
>
> This was my reaction as well. I think I'm finally "old", as I
> increasingly feel that society as a whole is encouraging and abetting
> mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and common sense, and the
> shortening of attention spans.

To me it's one of efficiency to use one medium instead of a flurry of
different websites with different interfaces.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 12:14 +, Mark Knoop a écrit :
> 
> At 12:34 on 22 Feb 2023, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
> > So you want to keep the possibility to post while not being
> > subscribed, but make the messages that I'm manually sending now be
> > sent automatically?
> 
> 
> 
> > At first, I thought this wasn't possible, but it actually appears
> > possible (the configuration for the held message notice text is just
> > in a completely different place than the configuration for the
> > rejection notice text in the Mailman 2 UI...). That would be fine with
> > me as well. Mark, WDYT?
> 
> 
> Absolutely - this sounds ideal if it's possible.


I went ahead and did just this. I think it should be a good compromise.


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Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Jeff Kopmanis]

I'm with you, Kevin.  "mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and
common sense", is right on target.

I'm an IT professional, and I can completely sympathize and appreciate all
that Jean deals with.  Thank You, ALL, for your largely thankless efforts.
You provide such a valuable service to the Lilypond community in support of
a very powerful and somewhat complex piece of software.  Think how much
something of this quality would cost in a commercial setting?!

I think it'd be perfectly acceptable to auto-reply to non-members with a
polite "Subscribe to post to this list" type of message.  If you can't take
the time to become a member of a list/community, then there should be no
expectation that the community will take the time to respond to the request.

-Jeff. :)

On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 9:43 AM Kevin Cole  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 6:21 PM Andrew Bernard
>  wrote:
>
> > Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If
> > people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to
> > participate there's something wrong.
>
> This was my reaction as well. I think I'm finally "old", as I
> increasingly feel that society as a whole is encouraging and abetting
> mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and common sense, and the
> shortening of attention spans.
>
> > Just reject the posts. That's very standard, and that is why the list
> > software supports that option.
>
> Again, hear, hear. Admining a mailing list is a thankless job. Take
> advantage of the tools that make it less painful.
>
> Some might complain that subscribing floods their inbox with posts
> that are irrelevant. So, in other words, the admin and those who
> subscribe are there to serve the whims of the non-subscribers and not
> cause them any personal discomfort. Sorry, that's not the way
> communities work. And most mailing list services offer a way to stem
> the tide and mitigate the flood. If people cannot be bothered to read
> the instructions telling them they need to subscribe, then clearly the
> list isn't worth their precious time, and they can happily go on to
> other "more important" things in their lives. A moderator /
> administrator shouldn't need to be a babysitter or nanny.
>
> Eventually, people who post without subscribing, and get no response
> should be able to figure out on their own that, perhaps, just maybe,
> following the instructions might just improve the response rate,
>
> (On the other hand, I have a high tolerance for people who miss
> something that the masses consider "obvious" in complex systems. So,
> I've never been a fan of the ruder RTFM type responses. It does mean
> that a lot of questions get asked over and over again, and the
> temptation is great to say "Use a search engine, for god's sake!" But
> saying that in a polite way is okay.)
>
> But I rant. ;-)
>
>

-- 
*Jeff Kopmanis*
Medium: https://kopmanis.medium.com
GLAAC: https://www.glaac.org/
University Lowbrow Astronomers: http://umich.edu/~lowbrows
Orange Can Astronomy: https://www.facebook.com/orangecanastronomy/

** Go Green and leave this email on the Screen! **

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Kevin Cole]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 6:21 PM Andrew Bernard
 wrote:

> Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If
> people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to
> participate there's something wrong.

This was my reaction as well. I think I'm finally "old", as I
increasingly feel that society as a whole is encouraging and abetting
mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and common sense, and the
shortening of attention spans.

> Just reject the posts. That's very standard, and that is why the list
> software supports that option.

Again, hear, hear. Admining a mailing list is a thankless job. Take
advantage of the tools that make it less painful.

Some might complain that subscribing floods their inbox with posts
that are irrelevant. So, in other words, the admin and those who
subscribe are there to serve the whims of the non-subscribers and not
cause them any personal discomfort. Sorry, that's not the way
communities work. And most mailing list services offer a way to stem
the tide and mitigate the flood. If people cannot be bothered to read
the instructions telling them they need to subscribe, then clearly the
list isn't worth their precious time, and they can happily go on to
other "more important" things in their lives. A moderator /
administrator shouldn't need to be a babysitter or nanny.

Eventually, people who post without subscribing, and get no response
should be able to figure out on their own that, perhaps, just maybe,
following the instructions might just improve the response rate,

(On the other hand, I have a high tolerance for people who miss
something that the masses consider "obvious" in complex systems. So,
I've never been a fan of the ruder RTFM type responses. It does mean
that a lot of questions get asked over and over again, and the
temptation is great to say "Use a search engine, for god's sake!" But
saying that in a polite way is okay.)

But I rant. ;-)

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Hi,

Am 22.02.23 um 12:45 schrieb Andrew Bernard:
Most employed people who work use email daily and countless people 
understand folders and filters.
Well... I cordially invite you to come visit us and marvel at what one 
encounters when working in a thoroughly non-technical environment like, 
for example, a music university :-). E-Mail, yes; folders, probably; 
automatic filtering, no way.
[Re Musescore, that may have been an offhand reference just to a 
random competing application but on the forum page it is stated: "Log 
in to post new content in the forum."


https://musescore.org/en/forum

]


Yes, it was a more-or-less random reference to the most important 
"competing" (if that term is applicable at all) free software music 
typesetting system. But not because MuseScore offers a more accessible 
forum - I have no idea how that works there -, but because MuseScore 
looks to non-technical people more like what they expect from a music 
typesetting system. LilyPond _is_ esoteric. And although I'm quite 
skeptical about its suitability as engraving program for 
non-technically-minded musicians, I think we don't have to increase the 
barrier more than necessary.
Frankly, even I myself am using MuseScore for a lot of "simple music 
typesetting" tasks these days (having gotten to know it better during 
the pandemic): I only turn to LilyPond now for "serious stuff that 
should look seriously great".


But of course this discussion borders on being OT.

Lukas

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Mark Knoop]

At 12:34 on 22 Feb 2023, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
>> I've said this already, and I'm happy to say this again: To me, the
>> LilyPond community is likely the most friendly, helpful place I've
>> ever encountered on "the internet". We shouldn't erect too high a
>> barrier to entering it, and for people who are not familiar (e.g.)
>> with automatic e-mail filtering/sorting rules etc., I think
>> subscribing to an e-mail list does look like a barrier: We should
>> advertise doing it, but not force people contacting us for the first
>> time to do it.

> So you want to keep the possibility to post while not being
> subscribed, but make the messages that I'm manually sending now be
> sent automatically?

> At first, I thought this wasn't possible, but it actually appears
> possible (the configuration for the held message notice text is just
> in a completely different place than the configuration for the
> rejection notice text in the Mailman 2 UI...). That would be fine with
> me as well. Mark, WDYT?

Absolutely - this sounds ideal if it's possible.

--
Mark Knoop

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Andrew Bernard]

Oh come now people. :-) Gen XYZ people have to register to use Discord, 
and Facebook, and Reddit, and Twitter, almost all Discourse forums and 
more. Most employed people who work use email daily and countless people 
understand folders and filters. So email interfaces can't be unfamiliar 
to younger people and the act of subscribing is just entering a name and 
an email address and responding to confirmation emails.


Needless to worry about scaring people off. So far all the people who 
have been asked manually to subscribe appear to have done so without 
objection. Also, the aim of the game is not to attract the maximum 
number of members, but to offer community and support to genuine users 
and subscribers. If some people are scared off by these very minimal 
joining requirements then maybe they are not the sort of members you 
want on a list anyway, if such a simple thing is a stumbling block. Just 
exactly the sort of people no doubt we have to manually train 
repetitively to actually provide an MWE with their query, another 
laborious and time consuming task for list admins and members, even 
though this is mentioned and has a page on the website. You know what I 
mean.


On the Discourse servers that I run I have a policy page which explains 
policies like this in detail, so that it is plain to all comers and 
active subscribers. Although we are talking about a mailing list here, 
perhaps the lilypond.org site could have a page devoted to the 
principles and policies of the mailing list function. This page:


https://lilypond.org/contact.html

has only the bare minimum of contact information, with no policy, 
mailing list FAQ and so on made plain.


If people think an email list presents a barrier to people, I'm willing 
to offer to set up and host the list as a Discourse server, the modern 
way which has a superb web interface and also supports at the same time 
95% of the functions of a traditional email list for people who want 
that. Many companies use Discourse now for their forums, a notable 
example of which is Steinberg. Something I have been wanting to suggest 
for some time.


https://www.discourse.org/about

Open source and able to be self hosted. The policy I employ is that the 
Discourse server is open to the public for viewing and searching, 
available to bots for indexing, but you have to subscribe to post, in 
order to prevent spam. So far I have never had a complaint about this 
type of policy.


[Re Musescore, that may have been an offhand reference just to a random 
competing application but on the forum page it is stated: "Log in to 
post new content in the forum."


https://musescore.org/en/forum

]


Andrew


On 22/02/2023 9:38 pm, Lukas-Fabian Moser wrote:


Of course, considering the unbelievable number of things you're 
contributing to LilyPond as a whole, you're perfectly free to design 
things in a fashion that is least cumbersome to you.


But I'm afraid a message like the one you proposed (although its 
wording is perfectly friendly and polite) will turn new users away, 
who just might say: Don't bother, I'll stick to MuseScore then. 
Mailing lists are old, yes (like Andrew said), but this does not mean 
that by now, everybody should be accustomed to them: It could just as 
well mean (and I think it does) that younger people are not acquainted 
with them anymore.


So, I think a better solution would be to keep things as they are, but 
let non-subscribed users automatically (if that's possible!) receive 
an e-mail saying:


- welcome
- you're not subscribed, so it might take longer until you get an 
answer, as your message has to be approved manually
- also, you might not see answers given to you, if somebody who helps 
you doesn't "reply to all" but sends his reply to the user list only.
- so you might just consider subscribing to the list, which you can do 
here: [link]


I don't think that this is would be a moral problem in the sense of a 
canned reply disguised as a human interaction. It would keep your 
moderation task to a mere minimum (namely, approving the message), but 
without giving the new users the feeling that their message has 
actually been rejected.


I've said this already, and I'm happy to say this again: To me, the 
LilyPond community is likely the most friendly, helpful place I've 
ever encountered on "the internet". We shouldn't erect too high a 
barrier to entering it, and for people who are not familiar (e.g.) 
with automatic e-mail filtering/sorting rules etc., I think 
subscribing to an e-mail list does look like a barrier: We should 
advertise doing it, but not force people contacting us for the first 
time to do it.


Lukas

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 11:38 +0100, Lukas-Fabian Moser a écrit :

> I'm a bit late to the party, but nevertheless: I think I'm with Wol and  
> Werner (and David K.?) here.

Replying after 12 hours is not late to the party :-)


> Of course, considering the unbelievable number of things you're  
> contributing to LilyPond as a whole, you're perfectly free to design  
> things in a fashion that is least cumbersome to you.
> 
> But I'm afraid a message like the one you proposed (although its wording  
> is perfectly friendly and polite) will turn new users away, who just  
> might say: Don't bother, I'll stick to MuseScore then. Mailing lists are  
> old, yes (like Andrew said), but this does not mean that by now,  
> everybody should be accustomed to them: It could just as well mean (and  
> I think it does) that younger people are not acquainted with them anymore.


Yes, that is the case. (My first interaction with a LilyPond list 4 years
ago was a little puzzling, as I didn't know about mailing lists before.
To be precise, I really hesitated before posting, because I saw the
"lilypond-user...@gnu.org" address at the bottom of "lilypond --help" but
without understanding at first that I could see the past posts to that
list. Also, the fact that there is an active Facebook group for LilyPond help, 
while Facebook
is not adapted to that at all [in addition to the privacy evil] makes
me think that the people there might not be comfortable using a mailing
list.)


> So, I think a better solution would be to keep things as they are, but  
> let non-subscribed users automatically (if that's possible!) receive an  
> e-mail saying:
> 
> - welcome  
> - you're not subscribed, so it might take longer until you get an  
> answer, as your message has to be approved manually  
> - also, you might not see answers given to you, if somebody who helps  
> you doesn't "reply to all" but sends his reply to the user list only.  
> - so you might just consider subscribing to the list, which you can do  
> here: [link]
> 
> I don't think that this is would be a moral problem in the sense of a  
> canned reply disguised as a human interaction. It would keep your  
> moderation task to a mere minimum (namely, approving the message), but  
> without giving the new users the feeling that their message has actually  
> been rejected.
> 
> I've said this already, and I'm happy to say this again: To me, the  
> LilyPond community is likely the most friendly, helpful place I've ever  
> encountered on "the internet". We shouldn't erect too high a barrier to  
> entering it, and for people who are not familiar (e.g.) with automatic  
> e-mail filtering/sorting rules etc., I think subscribing to an e-mail  
> list does look like a barrier: We should advertise doing it, but not  
> force people contacting us for the first time to do it.


So you want to keep the possibility to post while not being subscribed, but
make the messages that I'm manually sending now be sent automatically?

At first, I thought this wasn't possible, but it actually appears possible
(the configuration for the held message notice text is just in a completely
different place than the configuration for the rejection notice text in the
Mailman 2 UI...). That would be fine with me as well. Mark, WDYT?



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Hi Jean,


I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already 
weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list 
that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages 
being manually approved. I wonder what you (meaning everyone, but 
especially Mark, the other admin) would think about changing the list 
configuration to reject post from non-members instead of holding them 
on moderation, with a message such as


“Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order 
to prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. 
Please fill out the subscription form on 
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user.


Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so 
you can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to 
interact with this list infrequently, you may disable mail 
subscription in your membership preferences after you have subscribed.


If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably 
means that you accidentally posted from a different email address than 
the one you are subscribed with.


If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact 
the list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”


On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message 
until Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.


I'm a bit late to the party, but nevertheless: I think I'm with Wol and 
Werner (and David K.?) here.


Of course, considering the unbelievable number of things you're 
contributing to LilyPond as a whole, you're perfectly free to design 
things in a fashion that is least cumbersome to you.


But I'm afraid a message like the one you proposed (although its wording 
is perfectly friendly and polite) will turn new users away, who just 
might say: Don't bother, I'll stick to MuseScore then. Mailing lists are 
old, yes (like Andrew said), but this does not mean that by now, 
everybody should be accustomed to them: It could just as well mean (and 
I think it does) that younger people are not acquainted with them anymore.


So, I think a better solution would be to keep things as they are, but 
let non-subscribed users automatically (if that's possible!) receive an 
e-mail saying:


- welcome
- you're not subscribed, so it might take longer until you get an 
answer, as your message has to be approved manually
- also, you might not see answers given to you, if somebody who helps 
you doesn't "reply to all" but sends his reply to the user list only.
- so you might just consider subscribing to the list, which you can do 
here: [link]


I don't think that this is would be a moral problem in the sense of a 
canned reply disguised as a human interaction. It would keep your 
moderation task to a mere minimum (namely, approving the message), but 
without giving the new users the feeling that their message has actually 
been rejected.


I've said this already, and I'm happy to say this again: To me, the 
LilyPond community is likely the most friendly, helpful place I've ever 
encountered on "the internet". We shouldn't erect too high a barrier to 
entering it, and for people who are not familiar (e.g.) with automatic 
e-mail filtering/sorting rules etc., I think subscribing to an e-mail 
list does look like a barrier: We should advertise doing it, but not 
force people contacting us for the first time to do it.


Lukas

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Valentin Petzel]

Hello Andrew,

mailing lists have, but not all people have, and even if they have they do not 
necessarily have experience with mailing lists. Many people have (if at all) 
experiences with internet forums and recently with chat groups such as 
Discord.

If a random person is looking for some help in Lilypond and click on the 
Community page there is a point:

Contact: get help, discuss, and keep in touch! 

which then refers to the user list, but it simply states

User mailing list: lilypond-user@gnu.org 
This mailing list is the main place for users to discuss and help each other. 

and then gives a few links for subscription and info and archieves. This 
already assumes that the visitor knows how a mailing list and list etiquette 
works. I think it is not unexpected that some people do not, and some people 
might just be happy they found an email address to contact.

So while I support Jean’s suggestion I think it is important not to assume 
that there is something wrong with people getting it wrong, but to give them a 
chance to learn how to use a mailing list. And this involves not simply 
rejecting them, but telling them why they are being rejected (e.g. by an 
automatic reply such as Jean suggested). But even more so the point

User Discussions and Help

on the webpage should probably be reworded to make it very clear that you 
should be subscribed to the list to make posts, such as:

User mailing list: lilypond-user@gnu.org

This mailing list is the main place for users to discuss and help each other. 
If you need help with a problem subscribe to the list here[link] and send an 
email stating your problem to lilypond-user@gnu.org. Please understand that to 
avoid spam you must be subscribed to post a message. Using the provided link 
you can control if and in what manner messages to the list are send to you.

Cheers,
Valentin


Am Mittwoch, 22. Februar 2023, 00:20:37 CET schrieb Andrew Bernard:
> Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If
> people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to
> participate there's something wrong. Just reject the posts. That's very
> standard, and that is why the list software supports that option. Jean
> you already spend a huge amount of time helping people on the list, the
> administrivia of dealing with people who can't be bothered to spend a
> minute to sign up is not worth your time. If you don't make this change
> you will just be doing this useless task forever.
> 
> [Of course the moment I post people will provide proof of lists that do
> not need joining, but seriously, most lists do. Also, services such as
> Reddit require registration. It's a very basic concept.]
> 
> Andrew
> 
> On 22/02/2023 9:36 am, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already
> > weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list
> > that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages
> > being manually approved.



signature.asc
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Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[ebenezer]

FWIW, I'm quite happy with that wording.


On 2023-02-21 22:36, Jean Abou Samra wrote:


Hi,

I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already 
weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list 
that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages 
being manually approved. I wonder what you (meaning everyone, but 
especially Mark, the other admin) would think about changing the list 
configuration to reject post from non-members instead of holding them 
on moderation, with a message such as


“Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order 
to prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. 
Please fill out the subscription form on 
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user.


Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so 
you can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to 
interact with this list infrequently, you may disable mail 
subscription in your membership preferences after you have subscribed.


If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably 
means that you accidentally posted from a different email address than 
the one you are subscribed with.


If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact 
the list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”


On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message 
until Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.


Jean

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Mark Knoop]

At 23:36 on 21 Feb 2023, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
> Hi,

> I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already
> weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list
> that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages
> being manually approved. I wonder what you (meaning everyone, but
> especially Mark, the other admin) would think about changing the list
> configuration to reject post from non-members instead of holding them
> on moderation, with a message such as

> “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order
> to prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post.
> Please fill out the subscription form on
> [https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user](https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user).

> Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so
> you can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to
> interact with this list infrequently, you may disable mail
> subscription in your membership preferences after you have subscribed.

> If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably
> means that you accidentally posted from a different email address than
> the one you are subscribed with.

> If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact
> the list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”

> On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message
> until Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.

> Jean

Thanks Jean, I support this proposal.


--
Mark Knoop

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Werner LEMBERG]

> And joining is actually pretty serious friction for some people - the
> more lists I join, the more likely I am to abandon attempts to help if
> I'm required to register.

I second that concern.  Being the maintainer of the FreeType mailing
lists, I face exactly the same problem.  Usually, I simply enable
messages in the queue.  If I have to do this too often, I tell people
to subscribe.

It seems, however, that the amount of new users is much larger for
LilyPond than for FreeType...

> That said, I'm very sympathetic to wanting people to join.

Yes, joining is a *must* in the long run.  Only this guarantees spam
protection (not always, but in most cases).


Werner

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Andrew Bernard]

Wording is perfect.

Andrew


On 22/02/2023 9:36 am, Jean Abou Samra wrote:


“Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order 
to prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. 
Please fill out the subscription form on 
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user.


...

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Abraham Lee]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 7:57 PM Ralph Palmer 
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 2:37 PM Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to
>> prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please
>> fill out the subscription form on
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user.
>>
>> Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you
>> can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact
>> with this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your
>> membership preferences after you have subscribed.
>>
>> If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means
>> that you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one
>> you are subscribed with.
>>
>> If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the
>> list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”
>>
>> On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until
>> Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.
>>
>> Jean
>>
>> This sounds appropriate to me, Jean.
> Ralph
>

I second this. Very respectfully and instructively worded. This should
definitely take some load off your plate.

Best,
Abraham

>

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Ralph Palmer]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 2:37 PM Jean Abou Samra  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to
> prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please
> fill out the subscription form on
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user.
>
> Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you
> can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact
> with this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your
> membership preferences after you have subscribed.
>
> If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means
> that you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one
> you are subscribed with.
>
> If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the
> list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”
>
> On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until
> Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.
>
> Jean
>
> This sounds appropriate to me, Jean.
Ralph

>
>

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Wols,

After my post I was just waiting for you to chime in with that. :-) :-)

As to friction, I think it's just that most people are just simply 
unaware, rather than having ideological issues (the latter is _not_ 
directed at you).


All the best from Down Under!

Andrew Bernard

On 22/02/2023 10:50 am, Wol wrote:

On 21/02/2023 23:20, Andrew Bernard wrote:
[Of course the moment I post people will provide proof of lists that 
do not need joining, but seriously, most lists do. Also, services 
such as Reddit require registration. It's a very basic concept.]


:-) I believe pretty much all kernel.org lists don't require joining.

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Wol]

On 21/02/2023 23:20, Andrew Bernard wrote:
[Of course the moment I post people will provide proof of lists that do 
not need joining, but seriously, most lists do. Also, services such as 
Reddit require registration. It's a very basic concept.]


:-) I believe pretty much all kernel.org lists don't require joining.

And joining is actually pretty serious friction for some people - the 
more lists I join, the more likely I am to abandon attempts to help if 
I'm required to register.


That said, I'm very sympathetic to wanting people to join.

Certainly an automated response saying "you'll get a quicker response if 
you subscribe", but I'm not sure whether forcing people to subscribe is 
a good idea.


(Like I've seen plenty of lists ruined by aggressively trying to prevent 
off-topic posts - all too often the unintended consequence is the loss 
of on-topic posts too ...)


Cheers,
Wol

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[William Rehwinkel]

I think this is a good idea, and I would pick either silently rejecting 
unsubscribed messages or automatically replying with the message that 
Jean wrote (both options would happen automatically with no admin input 
to be clear). Even though mailing lists have been around for a long 
time, as others have posted here, so you would expect newcomers to know 
the expectation to subscribe, I think that as the years go by there are 
more and more people who are not familiar with how mailing lists 
operate, such as younger people who are more used to things like 
discord, google groups or other social media.



On 2/21/23 17:36, Jean Abou Samra wrote:

Hi,

I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary 
of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that 
they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being 
manually approved. I wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially 
Mark, the other admin) would think about changing the list configuration 
to reject post from non-members instead of holding them on moderation, 
with a message such as


“Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order 
to prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. 
Please fill out the subscription form on 
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user 
.


Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you 
can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact 
with this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your 
membership preferences after you have subscribed.


If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means 
that you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one 
you are subscribed with.


If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the 
list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”


On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until 
Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.


Jean



--
+ -- +
|William Rehwinkel - Oberlin College and |
|   Conservatory '24 |
|  will...@williamrehwinkel.net  |
| PGP key:   |
| https://williamrehwinkel.net/static/pubkey.txt |
+ -- +


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le mardi 21 février 2023 à 23:54 +0100, David Kastrup a écrit :
> Maybe it's possible to prepare a stock message that you just need to  
> checkmark?  That would go a long way towards being less weary.  A  
> different tradeoff.


Personally, I'm a bit uneasy with sending canned responses as
if they were newly written. If I'm sending similar replies, I
might as well do that automatically.

The disadvantage is that the newcomer maybe doesn't have the feeling of
being individually cared for by a human person if it's an automatic response.
I would usually write a word of welcome when replying to a question from a 
newcomer,
though.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Andrew Bernard]

Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If 
people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to 
participate there's something wrong. Just reject the posts. That's very 
standard, and that is why the list software supports that option. Jean 
you already spend a huge amount of time helping people on the list, the 
administrivia of dealing with people who can't be bothered to spend a 
minute to sign up is not worth your time. If you don't make this change 
you will just be doing this useless task forever.


[Of course the moment I post people will provide proof of lists that do 
not need joining, but seriously, most lists do. Also, services such as 
Reddit require registration. It's a very basic concept.]


Andrew


On 22/02/2023 9:36 am, Jean Abou Samra wrote:


Hi,

I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already 
weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list 
that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages 
being manually approved.

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[David Kastrup]

Jean Abou Samra  writes:

> Hi,
>
> I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already
> weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list
> that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages
> being manually approved.

Maybe it's possible to prepare a stock message that you just need to
checkmark?  That would go a long way towards being less weary.  A
different tradeoff.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le mardi 21 février 2023 à 14:46 -0800, Mark Stephen Mrotek a écrit :
> Jean Abou Samra,  
>    
> Why am I mentioned in your e-mail?  
> Thank you for your kind attention. 

You're not :-) The Mark being mentioned is Mark Knoop.

Best,

Jean


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

RE: Policy for posts from non-members

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Jean Abou Samra,

 

Why am I mentioned in your e-mail?

Thank you for your kind attention.

 

Mark

 

From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org 
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Jean 
Abou Samra
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 2:36 PM
To: lilypond-user 
Cc: mark 
Subject: Policy for posts from non-members

 

Hi,

I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary of 
telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they should 
subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually approved. I 
wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the other admin) would 
think about changing the list configuration to reject post from non-members 
instead of holding them on moderation, with a message such as

“Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to 
prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please fill 
out the subscription form on 
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user.

Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you can 
help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact with this 
list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your membership 
preferences after you have subscribed.

If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means that 
you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one you are 
subscribed with.

If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the list 
admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org  ”

On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until Mark or 
me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.

Jean

Re: Policy for posts from non-members

[David M. Boothe, CAS]

That's a common sense approach. And your auto-reply is very courteous.

dB

On Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 5:37 PM Jean Abou Samra  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary
> of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they
> should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually
> approved. I wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the
> other admin) would think about changing the list configuration to reject
> post from non-members instead of holding them on moderation, with a message
> such as
>
> “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to
> prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please
> fill out the subscription form on
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user.
>
> Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you
> can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact
> with this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your
> membership preferences after you have subscribed.
>
> If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means
> that you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one
> you are subscribed with.
>
> If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the
> list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org”
>
> On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until
> Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly.
>
> Jean
>