subject:"confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef"


> There is a point in the development course from stable to next stable,
> where people should move to the current development release and forget
> the old one. These days too many people uses 2.10 and its old
> documentation. If a new user wants to start using LilyPond, I
> undoubtedly send him to current 2.11 which is almost 2.12, because not
> doing so involves
>
> - all you learn about 2.10 will become obsolete shortly.
> - all you learn about 2.11 will serve untouched when 2.12 "Rune" 
comes out.

>
> I think it is not a matter of caprice, I'm not an update freak that
> considers vital to update from "2.11.63.0001a-rc7.0" to
> "2.11.63.0001a-rc7.1", but this is not the case now.
>
> And of course this should appear prominently in the web page. I
> propose a semi-permanent news item telling people to start using 2.11
> with its docs from NOW.
>
> This does not apply in the early, rapid changing stages of development
> of a release, but it does here IMO.
>

I imagine that the reason many people still start out with 2.10.33 (on 
Linux at least) is because 2.10.33 is the version in the repositories or 
is even pre-installed in the distro (e.g. Ubuntu Studio).  For these 
cases there should perhaps be a warning about correct un-installation of 
the old version through the distro's package manager before trying to 
install the new version.  I recall once having troubles when I didn't 
uninstall the old version properly.  Hopefully the repository managers 
will accept the 2.12 into the repos soon after its release.


Jon
--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-16 Thread Francisco Vila

After reading this thread, one thing is clear to me:

There is a point in the development course from stable to next stable,
where people should move to the current development release and forget
the old one. These days too many people uses 2.10 and its old
documentation. If a new user wants to start using LilyPond, I
undoubtedly send him to current 2.11 which is almost 2.12, because not
doing so involves

- all you learn about 2.10 will become obsolete shortly.
- all you learn about 2.11 will serve untouched when 2.12 "Rune" comes out.

I think it is not a matter of caprice, I'm not an update freak that
considers vital to update from "2.11.63.0001a-rc7.0" to
"2.11.63.0001a-rc7.1", but this is not the case now.

And of course this should appear prominently in the web page. I
propose a semi-permanent news item telling people to start using 2.11
with its docs from NOW.

This does not apply in the early, rapid changing stages of development
of a release, but it does here IMO.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-16 Thread chip

Ok, I got it now, I'll read the 2.11 Learning Manual from cover to
cover. My problem is I tend to skip the stuff that *apparently* doesn't
apply to what I am doing - anything that has multiple stafs like grand
stafs, or lyrics. And that's probably not a good thing, I know. So I'll
try to be a good student and read the whole manual whether I like it or
not.
Thanks for pounding me on the head a few times because that's what it
takes sometimes.

Regards,
Chip

Graham Percival wrote:

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 12:23:54PM -0700, chip wrote:

Now I am looking through the 2.11 docs and searching (using my browsers
Find function) for Syntax and File Syntax and finding lots of entries
for Syntax but not File Syntax.

Oh bloody mao, here we go again.

Look here guys. I get annoyed when I see people doing way too
much effort. Chip and Jonathan were working way too hard on
something so simple.

Chip, read these 3 doc pages, and only these 3. Don't search for
anything. Do not pass go. Do not collection $200.

LM 2.3.1 Music expressions explained
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Music-expressions-explained

LM 3.1.1 Introduction to the LilyPond file structure
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Introduction-to-the-LilyPond-file-structure#Introduction-to-the-LilyPond-file-structure

LM 3.1.2 Score is a (single) compound musical expression
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Score-is-a-_0028single_0029-compound-musical-expression#Score-is-a-_0028single_0029-compound-musical-expression

Done that? Good. Now if you look me in the metaphorical eye and
say "I don't see what's wrong with
\score{
\expr1
\expr2
\layout{}
}
"
then I will apologize for being curt. And then I'll listen to
your suggestions for the docs.

As a noob to Lilypond I find delving through the Learning Manual, the
Notation Reference, Examples and Snippets Library a daunting task, to try
to figure out something that turned out to be so simple. It appears to me
that these documents are not written for the complete noob like me, but
for someone who already has a clue.

Start reading from LM 2. From the beginning. Forget whatever you
think you know about lilypond. Your experience with the 2.10 docs
is counter-productive here.

Oh, you might also find this helpful:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/About-the-documentation#About-the-documentation

There are going to be noobs out here who will ask completely inane
or simple questions, to you guys the answers to which will seem to be
obvious and easy to find, but that's because you know the lingo and the
manuals inside-out. We don't know the right words or the correct way to
look for the answers. Until I started using Lilypond I'd never seen the
word grob or glob or whatever it is, and don't know what it is,
therefore I wouldn't know how to ask a question that might refer to one.
Well I suppose enough for now, I hope the examples help shed some
light on the situation. I've been able to find pretty much everything
needed so far by digging around in the manuals, but it does take a lot
of digging.

That's because you're digging. The LM does *exactly* what you
want; the only problem is that you think you know something about
lilypond from 2.10, and haven't sat down to read the 2.11 LM front
to cover.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-16 Thread chip


Jonathan Kulp wrote:


So I still don't know, "is it working yet?"!  

Heheh, sorry for mentioning, yes it is working the way I expect it to.
Thankyou.
--
Chip


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 12:23:54PM -0700, chip wrote:
> Now I am looking through the 2.11 docs and searching (using my browsers  
> Find function) for Syntax and File Syntax and finding lots of entries  
> for Syntax but not File Syntax.

Oh bloody mao, here we go again.

Look here guys.  I get annoyed when I see people doing way too
much effort.  Chip and Jonathan were working way too hard on
something so simple.

Chip, read these 3 doc pages, and only these 3.  Don't search for
anything.  Do not pass go.  Do not collection $200.

LM 2.3.1 Music expressions explained
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Music-expressions-explained

LM 3.1.1 Introduction to the LilyPond file structure
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Introduction-to-the-LilyPond-file-structure#Introduction-to-the-LilyPond-file-structure

LM 3.1.2 Score is a (single) compound musical expression
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Score-is-a-_0028single_0029-compound-musical-expression#Score-is-a-_0028single_0029-compound-musical-expression


Done that?  Good.  Now if you look me in the metaphorical eye and
say "I don't see what's wrong with
\score{
  \expr1
  \expr2
  \layout{}
}
"
then I will apologize for being curt.  And then I'll listen to
your suggestions for the docs.


>As a noob to Lilypond I find delving through the Learning Manual, the 
> Notation Reference, Examples and Snippets Library a daunting task, to try 
> to figure out something that turned out to be so simple. It appears to me 
> that these documents are not written for the complete noob like me, but 
> for someone who already has a clue.

Start reading from LM 2.  From the beginning.  Forget whatever you
think you know about lilypond.  Your experience with the 2.10 docs
is counter-productive here.

Oh, you might also find this helpful:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/About-the-documentation#About-the-documentation
 
> There are going to be noobs out here who will ask completely inane  
> or simple questions, to you guys the answers to which will seem to be  
> obvious and easy to find, but that's because you know the lingo and the  
> manuals inside-out. We don't know the right words or the correct way to  
> look for the answers. Until I started using Lilypond I'd never seen the  
> word grob or glob or whatever it is, and don't know what it is,  
> therefore I wouldn't know how to ask a question that might refer to one.
> Well I suppose enough for now, I hope the examples help shed some  
> light on the situation. I've been able to find pretty much everything  
> needed so far by digging around in the manuals, but it does take a lot  
> of digging.

That's because you're digging.  The LM does *exactly* what you
want; the only problem is that you think you know something about
lilypond from 2.10, and haven't sat down to read the 2.11 LM front
to cover.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef


chip wrote:
Amazing how this whole conversation got so blown apart. 


That happens sometimes...


melody=, song=, notes= . \relative .
\score {
   \new Staff \melody, song, notes .whatever was above
   \layout {}
   \midi {}
}


   My original question was about the transpose option and the reply 
from Jonathan was probably accurate and usable, but I didn't know where, 
in the above layout, to put the \transpose bit. I tried it in many 


So I still don't know, "is it working yet?"!  I think my response first 
thing this morning should have worked if it didn't get buried in your 
inbox with the flurry of other emails.  Where you have this line in your 
\score block:


\new Staff \melody

put the transpose command like this:

\new Staff \transpose c ef,, { \melody }

I definitely understand the way Lilypond can be overwhelming and 
confusing, since I come to it as a composer and musicologist who had 
never seen a line of any kind of code until I started using Lilypond. 
I'd suggest going carefully through the Tutorial in the Learning Manual 
(the new one, for version 2.11.63), as it's very well done and 
introduces you to most of the concepts you need.  It's done in a 
thorough and logical manner, with one concept leading to the next, and 
is probably the best way to get going.  I'm fairly experienced now but I 
still find useful bits in the learning manual all the time.


Best,

Jon


--
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http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-16 Thread chip

Amazing how this whole conversation got so blown apart. Anyway, In one 
other post Graham you mention you probably shouldn't have used the word 
'bloody' with someone who doesn't know you, and you're probably correct. 
I took it as a English version of f we Americans probably would've 
used. Therefore I didn't take it so lightly. So now that's done and over 
with, we move on.


Now I am looking through the 2.11 docs and searching (using my browsers 
Find function) for Syntax and File Syntax and finding lots of entries 
for Syntax but not File Syntax. At any rate, so far I am unable to find 
an example that shows how to properly lay out a .ly song. I'm guessing 
something like this -

\include
\version
\header
\paper
melody=, song=, notes= . \relative .
\score {
   \new Staff \melody, song, notes .whatever was above
   \layout {}
   \midi {}
}
   That may or may not be correct, but based on the examples I've seen 
it appears to be correct. But based on the way the forum posts have gone 
there must be something wrong with it, but what? That's part of what I 
haven't been able to find in any of the docs.
   My original question was about the transpose option and the reply 
from Jonathan was probably accurate and usable, but I didn't know where, 
in the above layout, to put the \transpose bit. I tried it in many 
places and got errors. It wasn't until you pointed me to the docs 
section and I clicked on the picture to view the underlying code that I 
found the location to place the \transpose code. Again, it appears that 
this info could have been placed in the manual, maybe the Learning 
Manual, in the textual portion, not just hidden behind the example 
picture. Then it would be easy to find, shown in a printed textual 
example, with the staff example as well.
   As a noob to Lilypond I find delving through the Learning Manual, 
the Notation Reference, Examples and Snippets Library a daunting task, 
to try to figure out something that turned out to be so simple. It 
appears to me that these documents are not written for the complete noob 
like me, but for someone who already has a clue.
   Oh, another example - changing the default style of multimeasure 
rests - that too took a lot of digging to find the answer to, when it 
could have been explained in simple text in the Learning Manual. And the 
information on changing the time signature from C to 4/4, etc, was also 
a time consuming search through several manuals. Seems to me these are 
basics that should be in the Learning Manual, explained in plain text.

For example (first section direct from the Learning Manual):

Time signature

Music Glossary: time signature.

The time signature can be set with the \time command:

\relative c'' {
 \time 3/4
 a4 a a
 \time 6/8
 a4. a
 \time 4/4
 a4 a a a
}

And one can use this command:

\override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()

to change the default style of the time signature to always show the 
fraction style time signature. As in this example:


notes = \relative c'' {
   \time 4/4
   \key c \major
   \clef treble
   \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()

 \time 3/4
 a4 a a
 \time 6/8
 a4. a
 \time 4/4
 a4 a a a
}

--

There are going to be noobs out here who will ask completely inane 
or simple questions, to you guys the answers to which will seem to be 
obvious and easy to find, but that's because you know the lingo and the 
manuals inside-out. We don't know the right words or the correct way to 
look for the answers. Until I started using Lilypond I'd never seen the 
word grob or glob or whatever it is, and don't know what it is, 
therefore I wouldn't know how to ask a question that might refer to one.
Well I suppose enough for now, I hope the examples help shed some 
light on the situation. I've been able to find pretty much everything 
needed so far by digging around in the manuals, but it does take a lot 
of digging.


Regards,
Chip W.


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef


Graham Percival wrote:


In defense of Jonathan, his responses *were* accurate; they were
just too polite.  I mean, they were accurate and looked accurate,
but it invited a discussion about file syntax.  We've spent about


Thanks Graham.  I just sent an email defending myself but it's nice to 
get confirmation :)



2.11 docs -- we just aren't consistent in saying "read the 2.11
docs instead of 2.10".


Agreed.  I'll try to make a habit of this.

Jon
--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef


Graham Percival wrote:


If the initial response to his question was "read the 2.11 docs
about transposition and file syntax", the whole discussion would
have been over in 2 or 3 emails.


Please note the first lines of my initial response to Chip:

"For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:"


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose

At this point there was no need to point him to docs on syntax because 
he said he was confused about how transposition worked, not about where 
to put the command.  Nevertheless, I went to the trouble of also 
supplying four minimal examples of transposition that I tested and that 
worked perfectly.  Maybe this is spoonfeeding but I enjoy doing it and 
wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about by creating examples 
I had actually run successfully.


So rather than making this yet another pissing contest (that's my "rude 
+ accurate" comment), why don't we suggest EXPLICITLY to everyone on the 
list that all "RTFM" comments should be "RTFCM" (C = current) comments?


I pointed to the current docs, as I always do, but Kieren makes a good 
point--I'll try to remember in future to say also that the current docs 
are better even if running 2.10.33.  Chip didn't say which version he 
was running until he responded the third time with some code, at which 
time I think I was already gone to bed.



Hope this wasn't warm and fuzzy and inaccurate!  =)
Kieren.


If I handled Chip's inquiry wrongly, please let me know, y'all.  I enjoy 
helping new users and feel that this is one of the ways I can best help 
the Lilypond effort since I can't write code or fix bugs and my role in 
the doc project is done.  I don't see anything inaccurate in my 
responses and it's against my nature to be anything but friendly.  I 
don't blame Chip for not getting it the first time, either, as I've had 
many moments when something that's obvious for most users has completely 
befuddled me.  (the correct placement of a \midi block comes to mind...).


Best,

Jon


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 01:12:56PM -0500, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> Graham,
>
>> If the initial response to his question was "read the 2.11 docs
>> about transposition and file syntax", the whole discussion would
>> have been over in 2 or 3 emails.
>
> So rather than making this yet another pissing contest (that's my "rude + 
> accurate" comment),

:)

In defense of Jonathan, his responses *were* accurate; they were
just too polite.  I mean, they were accurate and looked accurate,
but it invited a discussion about file syntax.  We've spent about
10 hours working on file syntax ALONE in the 2.11 docs; unless you
think that you can explain the concept better in an email than
multiple people could do in 10 hours, I strongly suggest that we
simply tell people to RTB211D.

> why don't we suggest EXPLICITLY to everyone on the 
> list that all "RTFM" comments should be "RTFCM" (C = current) comments?

Definitely!  Although since there are multiple manuals, and to be
slightly more polite, it should be RTB211D.  :)   That said, I
believe that all doc-pointing in recent months *has* been to the
2.11 docs -- we just aren't consistent in saying "read the 2.11
docs instead of 2.10".

On second thought, I regret using the word "bloody" in my first
email.  That's should be saved for people who know me and will
understand the joke.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-16 Thread Kieren MacMillan


Graham,


Would people rather get "rude + accurate" responses, or "warm +
fuzzy + not solving the problem" responses?  I personally would
*much* rather get the former.

If the initial response to his question was "read the 2.11 docs
about transposition and file syntax", the whole discussion would
have been over in 2 or 3 emails.


So rather than making this yet another pissing contest (that's my  
"rude + accurate" comment), why don't we suggest EXPLICITLY to  
everyone on the list that all "RTFM" comments should be "RTFCM" (C =  
current) comments?


Hope this wasn't warm and fuzzy and inaccurate!  =)
Kieren.


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 01:34:15PM +0100, james bailey wrote:
> 2008/11/16, Graham Percival <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the "syntax of a
> >  lilypond file".
> 
> Seriously, Graham, if you can't be nice and fuzzy, don't respond.

In general I do that.  But Chip had asked four questions already,
and received three answers from Jonathan, and was still quite
lost.

Then I replied, and his next email ended with "Thanks for pointing
me to the correct reference, even though you didn't need to be so
bloody rude about it."

Would people rather get "rude + accurate" responses, or "warm +
fuzzy + not solving the problem" responses?  I personally would
*much* rather get the former.

> And, I know it makes complete sense to you, but a normal person would
> never think to look at documentation for a version other than the one
> they're using.

No, it doesn't make sense.  That's why I take every opportunity to
suggest the 2.11 docs on the mailist, and can't wait for 2.12 to
be out.

If the initial response to his question was "read the 2.11 docs
about transposition and file syntax", the whole discussion would
have been over in 2 or 3 emails.

- Graham

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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-16 Thread james bailey

2008/11/16, Graham Percival <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the "syntax of a
>  lilypond file".
>
>  Particularly^2, the "a \score contains a single music expression"
>  part.
>
>
>  - Graham


Seriously, Graham, if you can't be nice and fuzzy, don't respond.
(Wasn't that your suggestion?) You do potentially more damage by
responding than simply waiting for someone from the nice and fuzzy
committee to get around to reading their email. (I know I was
seriously pissed off at the first question I asked and you responded.)

And, I know it makes complete sense to you, but a normal person would
never think to look at documentation for a version other than the one
they're using. So, before you get all mao, take a look at the relevant
documentation for the person who's asking the question.


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

Your example worked fine for me, Chip.  Did you figure it out?  (I went 
to bed and missed all the fun.) If my minimal example wouldn't work then 
you must have had a stray curly brace somewhere.  What you want is to 
put the transpose command in your score block here:


   \new Staff \transpose c ef,, { \melody }

When I ran it this way it transposed it to where the first pitch was a G 
in the top space of the bass clef.  If that's an octave too low then 
remove one of the commas after the e-flat.


Jon

chip wrote:
Thanks for your patience and help Jonathan, I'm trying your example but 
keep getting errors thrown up at me during compile. I've included my 
piece for you to look at. I've placed the \transpose line in several 
different sections and can't get it to work.

Regards,
Chip

===
% LilyPond
\include "english.ly"
\version "2.10.33"
\header{
   title = "Mi Lupita"
   composer = "Recorded by: Rudy Palacias"
   arranger = "Transcribed by: Chip Wiegand"
   instrument = "Bari Sax"
}
% macro for beamed two per two in 2/2 and 4/4 time signature
qBeam = {
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 1 4 'Staff)
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 2 4 'Staff)
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 3 4 'Staff)
}

\paper {
top-margin = 0.1\cm
page-top-space = 0.1\cm
}

#(set-global-staff-size 22)
#(set-default-paper-size "letter")

melody = \relative c'' {
   \time 4/4
   \key c \major
   \clef bass
   \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()
   \override MultiMeasureRest #'expand-limit = 1
   \override Glissando #'style = #'zigzag
   \qBeam

r2 r8 e e d \bar "|:"
f d~ d c b d f a
g e f g~ g4 fs
f?2 r2
c8 g d' g, e' e e d
f d~ d c b d f a
g e f g~ g4 fs
f?2 r2
e4. a8~ a4 a~
\time 5/4 a8 g~ g4~ g2.
\time 4/4 r8 g r4 r2
\set Score.skipBars = ##t R1*4
g4. as8~ as4~ as8 as8~
as4~ as8 gs r4 r4
\time 2/4 r4 r8 gs
\time 4/4
gs4 r r2
r4 e8 f g4 fs
f?1
e1
f4 r r2
R1*5

r2 r8 a~ a gs
g?4 r r2
R1*2
r16 g, a b c d e r r8 e e d \bar ":|"
% REMOVED MORE NOTATION TO SHORTEN UP THE QUOTED SECTION $
}
\score {
   \new Staff \melody
   \layout {
   indent = #0
}
   \midi {}
}

=
Jonathan Kulp wrote:

Just connect one more dot and you're there...

notes = { \key c \major c d e f }

%% sax part
\relative c'' { \notes }

%% trombone part -- add the "\clef" command
%% and change it to \relative c' instead of relative c''

\transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }



Jon

chip wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is all there is to 
it. I changed the clef to Bass and in doing so the notes change 
position on the staff. I want to have the notes remain in the same 
positions on the staff in bass clef as they are in treble clef. Only 
the key signature should change. The Alto Sax part is in the key of 
C, so the bass clef part should be in, I don't know, my theory is so 
rusty I can't think that one up.

--
Chip

Jonathan Kulp wrote:
For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose 



To change it to bass clef, just use a command

\clef "bass"

The easiest way to put put music into a different clef/register is 
to store the notes in a variable and simply use different \relative 
levels to put it in the right octave:


%%% start cut-and-paste section %%%

%% define the pitches
notes = { c d e f }

%% start pitches on middle C

\relative c' { \notes }

%% put same pitches in bass clef an 8ve lower

\relative c { \clef "bass" \notes }

%% transpose notes for an e-flat instrument
\transpose es c' { \relative c' { \notes }}

%% transpose from e-flat instrument to concert pitch
\transpose c es, { \relative c'' { \notes } }

%%% end cut-and-paste section %%%

Hope that helps,

Jon

chip wrote:
I have a piece written for Eb Alto Sax and would like to transpose 
it to Bass Clef Trombone. I've read a bunch of posts in the 
archives and am now more confused than ever. It should be 
relatively easy, as the bass clef bone should be able to read the 
notes as written, but just change the key sig? Right? I think...

Please shed some light on this for me,
Thanks.
Chip


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http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

Yes, particularly for basic stuff like this.  You might encounter
the occasional example that doesn't work in 2.10, but those will
be relatively rare.  IIRC everything in the LM will apply to 2.10
as well.

- Graham

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:56:07PM -0700, chip wrote:
>So even though I am using 2.10.33 (latest stable I believe) I should be
>looking at the 2.11 docs?
>--
>Chip
> 
>Graham Percival wrote:
> 
>  Ah, I see the problem.  You were looking at the 2.10 docs, which
>  are approximately a thousand hours older than the 2.11 docs.  As
>  you might expect from 1,000 hours of work, the 2.11 docs are much
>  easier to read.
> 
>  - Graham
> 
>  On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:38:07PM -0700, chip wrote:
>   
> 
> I have read the bloody manuals, all of them. I finally found the part I
> need in the part I skipped over because it didn't apply to my work - 3.4
> An Orchestral Part. I found the code I needed to see by clicking on the
> picture of the score fragment, then I saw that the \transpose was in front
> of the \relative bit. That's all I needed to know, was where to put that
> bloody \transpose. I have yet to find anything anywhere in the docs that
> actually says to do that. In plain print, without having to look at the
> code behind the example fragment. Guess I just don't read between the
> lines enough, or don't make enough assumptions, or am just not experienced
> enough like all you experts who already know it all and don't have to dig
> through 3 or more manuals/references/tutorials/snippets libraries to try
> to figure out something so simple.
> Thanks for pointing me to the correct reference, even though you didn't
> need to be so bloody rude about it.
> --
> Chip
> 
> Graham Percival wrote:
> 
>   On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:04:47PM -0700, chip wrote:
>   
> 
>   caused by this code -
>   
> 
>   ... lots of stuff in the copy/pasted section below ...
>   \bar "|."
>   }
>   \score {
>  \new Staff \notes
>   \transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }
>  \layout { indent = #0 }
>  \midi {}
> 
> 
>   Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the "syntax of a
>   lilypond file".
> 
>   Particularly^2, the "a \score contains a single music expression"
>   part.
> 
>   - Graham
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
>   


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

So even though I am using 2.10.33 (latest stable I believe) I should be 
looking at the 2.11 docs?

--
Chip

Graham Percival wrote:

Ah, I see the problem.  You were looking at the 2.10 docs, which
are approximately a thousand hours older than the 2.11 docs.  As
you might expect from 1,000 hours of work, the 2.11 docs are much
easier to read.

- Graham

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:38:07PM -0700, chip wrote:
  

   I have read the bloody manuals, all of them. I finally found the part I
   need in the part I skipped over because it didn't apply to my work - 3.4
   An Orchestral Part. I found the code I needed to see by clicking on the
   picture of the score fragment, then I saw that the \transpose was in front
   of the \relative bit. That's all I needed to know, was where to put that
   bloody \transpose. I have yet to find anything anywhere in the docs that
   actually says to do that. In plain print, without having to look at the
   code behind the example fragment. Guess I just don't read between the
   lines enough, or don't make enough assumptions, or am just not experienced
   enough like all you experts who already know it all and don't have to dig
   through 3 or more manuals/references/tutorials/snippets libraries to try
   to figure out something so simple.
   Thanks for pointing me to the correct reference, even though you didn't
   need to be so bloody rude about it.
   --
   Chip

   Graham Percival wrote:

 On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:04:47PM -0700, chip wrote:
  


 caused by this code -
 

 ... lots of stuff in the copy/pasted section below ...
 \bar "|."
 }
 \score {
\new Staff \notes
 \transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }
\layout { indent = #0 }
\midi {}



 Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the "syntax of a
 lilypond file".

 Particularly^2, the "a \score contains a single music expression"
 part.

 - Graham


  




  


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-15 Thread Graham Percival

Ah, I see the problem.  You were looking at the 2.10 docs, which
are approximately a thousand hours older than the 2.11 docs.  As
you might expect from 1,000 hours of work, the 2.11 docs are much
easier to read.

- Graham

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:38:07PM -0700, chip wrote:
>I have read the bloody manuals, all of them. I finally found the part I
>need in the part I skipped over because it didn't apply to my work - 3.4
>An Orchestral Part. I found the code I needed to see by clicking on the
>picture of the score fragment, then I saw that the \transpose was in front
>of the \relative bit. That's all I needed to know, was where to put that
>bloody \transpose. I have yet to find anything anywhere in the docs that
>actually says to do that. In plain print, without having to look at the
>code behind the example fragment. Guess I just don't read between the
>lines enough, or don't make enough assumptions, or am just not experienced
>enough like all you experts who already know it all and don't have to dig
>through 3 or more manuals/references/tutorials/snippets libraries to try
>to figure out something so simple.
>Thanks for pointing me to the correct reference, even though you didn't
>need to be so bloody rude about it.
>--
>Chip
> 
>Graham Percival wrote:
> 
>  On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:04:47PM -0700, chip wrote:
>   
> 
>  caused by this code -
>  
> 
>  ... lots of stuff in the copy/pasted section below ...
>  \bar "|."
>  }
>  \score {
> \new Staff \notes
>  \transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }
> \layout { indent = #0 }
> \midi {}
> 
> 
>  Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the "syntax of a
>  lilypond file".
> 
>  Particularly^2, the "a \score contains a single music expression"
>  part.
> 
>  - Graham
> 
> 
>   


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

I have read the bloody manuals, all of them. I finally found the part I 
need in the part I skipped over because it didn't apply to my work - 3.4 
An Orchestral Part. I found the code I needed to see by clicking on the 
picture of the score fragment, then I saw that the \transpose was in 
front of the \relative bit. That's all I needed to know, was where to 
put that bloody \transpose. I have yet to find anything anywhere in the 
docs that actually says to do that. In plain print, without having to 
look at the code behind the example fragment. Guess I just don't read 
between the lines enough, or don't make enough assumptions, or am just 
not experienced enough like all you experts who already know it all and 
don't have to dig through 3 or more 
manuals/references/tutorials/snippets libraries to try to figure out 
something so simple.
Thanks for pointing me to the correct reference, even though you didn't 
need to be so bloody rude about it.

--
Chip

Graham Percival wrote:

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:04:47PM -0700, chip wrote:
  

caused by this code -

... lots of stuff in the copy/pasted section below ...
\bar "|."
}
\score {
   \new Staff \notes
\transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }
   \layout { indent = #0 }
   \midi {}



Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the "syntax of a
lilypond file".

Particularly^2, the "a \score contains a single music expression"
part.

- Graham


  


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-15 Thread Graham Percival

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:04:47PM -0700, chip wrote:
> caused by this code -
> 
> ... lots of stuff in the copy/pasted section below ...
> \bar "|."
> }
> \score {
>\new Staff \notes
> \transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }
>\layout { indent = #0 }
>\midi {}

Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the "syntax of a
lilypond file".

Particularly^2, the "a \score contains a single music expression"
part.

- Graham


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef


chip wrote:
Thanks for your patience and help Jonathan, I'm trying your example 
but keep getting errors thrown up at me during compile. I've included 
my piece for you to look at. I've placed the \transpose line in 
several different sections and can't get it to work.

Regards,
Chip


I should have added the error messages -
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ lilypond "Mi Lupita - bone.ly"
GNU LilyPond 2.10.33
Processing `Mi Lupita - bone.ly'
Parsing...
Mi Lupita - bone.ly:93:0: error: syntax error, unexpected \transpose

\transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }
Mi Lupita - bone.ly:96:5: error: syntax error, unexpected '}'
   
}

error: failed files: "Mi Lupita - bone.ly"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$
---

caused by this code -

... lots of stuff in the copy/pasted section below ...
\bar "|."
}
\score {
   \new Staff \notes
\transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }
   \layout { indent = #0 }
   \midi {}


Hope that helps.


===
% LilyPond
\include "english.ly"
\version "2.10.33"
\header{
   title = "Mi Lupita"
   composer = "Recorded by: Rudy Palacias"
   arranger = "Transcribed by: Chip Wiegand"
   instrument = "Bari Sax"
}
% macro for beamed two per two in 2/2 and 4/4 time signature
qBeam = {
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 1 4 'Staff)
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 2 4 'Staff)
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 3 4 'Staff)
}

\paper {
top-margin = 0.1\cm
page-top-space = 0.1\cm
}

#(set-global-staff-size 22)
#(set-default-paper-size "letter")

melody = \relative c'' {
   \time 4/4
   \key c \major
   \clef bass
   \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()
   \override MultiMeasureRest #'expand-limit = 1
   \override Glissando #'style = #'zigzag
   \qBeam

r2 r8 e e d \bar "|:"
f d~ d c b d f a
g e f g~ g4 fs
f?2 r2
c8 g d' g, e' e e d
f d~ d c b d f a
g e f g~ g4 fs
f?2 r2
e4. a8~ a4 a~
\time 5/4 a8 g~ g4~ g2.
\time 4/4 r8 g r4 r2
\set Score.skipBars = ##t R1*4
g4. as8~ as4~ as8 as8~
as4~ as8 gs r4 r4
\time 2/4 r4 r8 gs
\time 4/4
gs4 r r2
r4 e8 f g4 fs
f?1
e1
f4 r r2
R1*5

r2 r8 a~ a gs
g?4 r r2
R1*2
r16 g, a b c d e r r8 e e d \bar ":|"
% REMOVED MORE NOTATION TO SHORTEN UP THE QUOTED SECTION $
}
\score {
   \new Staff \melody
   \layout {
   indent = #0
}
   \midi {}
}

=
Jonathan Kulp wrote:

Just connect one more dot and you're there...

notes = { \key c \major c d e f }

%% sax part
\relative c'' { \notes }

%% trombone part -- add the "\clef" command
%% and change it to \relative c' instead of relative c''

\transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }



Jon

chip wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is all there is to 
it. I changed the clef to Bass and in doing so the notes change 
position on the staff. I want to have the notes remain in the same 
positions on the staff in bass clef as they are in treble clef. Only 
the key signature should change. The Alto Sax part is in the key of 
C, so the bass clef part should be in, I don't know, my theory is so 
rusty I can't think that one up.

--
Chip

Jonathan Kulp wrote:
For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose 



To change it to bass clef, just use a command

\clef "bass"

The easiest way to put put music into a different clef/register is 
to store the notes in a variable and simply use different \relative 
levels to put it in the right octave:


%%% start cut-and-paste section %%%

%% define the pitches
notes = { c d e f }

%% start pitches on middle C

\relative c' { \notes }

%% put same pitches in bass clef an 8ve lower

\relative c { \clef "bass" \notes }

%% transpose notes for an e-flat instrument
\transpose es c' { \relative c' { \notes }}

%% transpose from e-flat instrument to concert pitch
\transpose c es, { \relative c'' { \notes } }

%%% end cut-and-paste section %%%

Hope that helps,

Jon

chip wrote:
I have a piece written for Eb Alto Sax and would like to transpose 
it to Bass Clef Trombone. I've read a bunch of posts in the 
archives and am now more confused than ever. It should be 
relatively easy, as the bass clef bone should be able to read the 
notes as written, but just change the key sig? Right? I think...

Please shed some light on this for me,
Thank

Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

Thanks for your patience and help Jonathan, I'm trying your example but 
keep getting errors thrown up at me during compile. I've included my 
piece for you to look at. I've placed the \transpose line in several 
different sections and can't get it to work.

Regards,
Chip

===
% LilyPond
\include "english.ly"
\version "2.10.33"
\header{
   title = "Mi Lupita"
   composer = "Recorded by: Rudy Palacias"
   arranger = "Transcribed by: Chip Wiegand"
   instrument = "Bari Sax"
}
% macro for beamed two per two in 2/2 and 4/4 time signature
qBeam = {
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 1 4 'Staff)
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 2 4 'Staff)
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 3 4 'Staff)
}

\paper {
top-margin = 0.1\cm
page-top-space = 0.1\cm
}

#(set-global-staff-size 22)
#(set-default-paper-size "letter")

melody = \relative c'' {
   \time 4/4
   \key c \major
   \clef bass
   \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()
   \override MultiMeasureRest #'expand-limit = 1
   \override Glissando #'style = #'zigzag
   \qBeam

r2 r8 e e d \bar "|:"
f d~ d c b d f a
g e f g~ g4 fs
f?2 r2
c8 g d' g, e' e e d
f d~ d c b d f a
g e f g~ g4 fs
f?2 r2
e4. a8~ a4 a~
\time 5/4 a8 g~ g4~ g2.
\time 4/4 r8 g r4 r2
\set Score.skipBars = ##t R1*4
g4. as8~ as4~ as8 as8~
as4~ as8 gs r4 r4
\time 2/4 r4 r8 gs
\time 4/4
gs4 r r2
r4 e8 f g4 fs
f?1
e1
f4 r r2
R1*5

r2 r8 a~ a gs
g?4 r r2
R1*2
r16 g, a b c d e r r8 e e d \bar ":|"
% REMOVED MORE NOTATION TO SHORTEN UP THE QUOTED SECTION $
}
\score {
   \new Staff \melody
   \layout {
   indent = #0
}
   \midi {}
}

=
Jonathan Kulp wrote:

Just connect one more dot and you're there...

notes = { \key c \major c d e f }

%% sax part
\relative c'' { \notes }

%% trombone part -- add the "\clef" command
%% and change it to \relative c' instead of relative c''

\transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }



Jon

chip wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is all there is to 
it. I changed the clef to Bass and in doing so the notes change 
position on the staff. I want to have the notes remain in the same 
positions on the staff in bass clef as they are in treble clef. Only 
the key signature should change. The Alto Sax part is in the key of 
C, so the bass clef part should be in, I don't know, my theory is so 
rusty I can't think that one up.

--
Chip

Jonathan Kulp wrote:
For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose 



To change it to bass clef, just use a command

\clef "bass"

The easiest way to put put music into a different clef/register is 
to store the notes in a variable and simply use different \relative 
levels to put it in the right octave:


%%% start cut-and-paste section %%%

%% define the pitches
notes = { c d e f }

%% start pitches on middle C

\relative c' { \notes }

%% put same pitches in bass clef an 8ve lower

\relative c { \clef "bass" \notes }

%% transpose notes for an e-flat instrument
\transpose es c' { \relative c' { \notes }}

%% transpose from e-flat instrument to concert pitch
\transpose c es, { \relative c'' { \notes } }

%%% end cut-and-paste section %%%

Hope that helps,

Jon

chip wrote:
I have a piece written for Eb Alto Sax and would like to transpose 
it to Bass Clef Trombone. I've read a bunch of posts in the 
archives and am now more confused than ever. It should be 
relatively easy, as the bass clef bone should be able to read the 
notes as written, but just change the key sig? Right? I think...

Please shed some light on this for me,
Thanks.
Chip


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-15 Thread Jonathan Kulp


Just connect one more dot and you're there...

notes = { \key c \major c d e f }

%% sax part
\relative c'' { \notes }

%% trombone part -- add the "\clef" command
%% and change it to \relative c' instead of relative c''

\transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef "bass" \notes } }



Jon

chip wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is all there is to it. I 
changed the clef to Bass and in doing so the notes change position on 
the staff. I want to have the notes remain in the same positions on the 
staff in bass clef as they are in treble clef. Only the key signature 
should change. The Alto Sax part is in the key of C, so the bass clef 
part should be in, I don't know, my theory is so rusty I can't think 
that one up.

--
Chip

Jonathan Kulp wrote:
For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose 



To change it to bass clef, just use a command

\clef "bass"

The easiest way to put put music into a different clef/register is to 
store the notes in a variable and simply use different \relative 
levels to put it in the right octave:


%%% start cut-and-paste section %%%

%% define the pitches
notes = { c d e f }

%% start pitches on middle C

\relative c' { \notes }

%% put same pitches in bass clef an 8ve lower

\relative c { \clef "bass" \notes }

%% transpose notes for an e-flat instrument
\transpose es c' { \relative c' { \notes }}

%% transpose from e-flat instrument to concert pitch
\transpose c es, { \relative c'' { \notes } }

%%% end cut-and-paste section %%%

Hope that helps,

Jon

chip wrote:
I have a piece written for Eb Alto Sax and would like to transpose it 
to Bass Clef Trombone. I've read a bunch of posts in the archives and 
am now more confused than ever. It should be relatively easy, as the 
bass clef bone should be able to read the notes as written, but just 
change the key sig? Right? I think...

Please shed some light on this for me,
Thanks.
Chip


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http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is all there is to it. I 
changed the clef to Bass and in doing so the notes change position on 
the staff. I want to have the notes remain in the same positions on the 
staff in bass clef as they are in treble clef. Only the key signature 
should change. The Alto Sax part is in the key of C, so the bass clef 
part should be in, I don't know, my theory is so rusty I can't think 
that one up.

--
Chip

Jonathan Kulp wrote:
For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose 



To change it to bass clef, just use a command

\clef "bass"

The easiest way to put put music into a different clef/register is to 
store the notes in a variable and simply use different \relative 
levels to put it in the right octave:


%%% start cut-and-paste section %%%

%% define the pitches
notes = { c d e f }

%% start pitches on middle C

\relative c' { \notes }

%% put same pitches in bass clef an 8ve lower

\relative c { \clef "bass" \notes }

%% transpose notes for an e-flat instrument
\transpose es c' { \relative c' { \notes }}

%% transpose from e-flat instrument to concert pitch
\transpose c es, { \relative c'' { \notes } }

%%% end cut-and-paste section %%%

Hope that helps,

Jon

chip wrote:
I have a piece written for Eb Alto Sax and would like to transpose it 
to Bass Clef Trombone. I've read a bunch of posts in the archives and 
am now more confused than ever. It should be relatively easy, as the 
bass clef bone should be able to read the notes as written, but just 
change the key sig? Right? I think...

Please shed some light on this for me,
Thanks.
Chip


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-15 Thread Jonathan Kulp


Jonathan Kulp wrote:
For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose 



To change it to bass clef, just use a command

\clef "bass"

The easiest way to put put music into a different clef/register is to 
store the notes in a variable and simply use different \relative levels 
to put it in the right octave:


%%% start cut-and-paste section %%%

%% define the pitches
notes = { c d e f }



Forgot to say if you want to have key signatures instead of accidentals 
in the transposed parts, be sure to define a key inside the music 
expression: notes = { \key c \major c d e f }.  The examples in the docs 
 use keys this way.



%% start pitches on middle C

\relative c' { \notes }

%% put same pitches in bass clef an 8ve lower

\relative c { \clef "bass" \notes }

%% transpose notes for an e-flat instrument
\transpose es c' { \relative c' { \notes }}

%% transpose from e-flat instrument to concert pitch
\transpose c es, { \relative c'' { \notes } }

%%% end cut-and-paste section %%%

Hope that helps,

Jon

chip wrote:
I have a piece written for Eb Alto Sax and would like to transpose it 
to Bass Clef Trombone. I've read a bunch of posts in the archives and 
am now more confused than ever. It should be relatively easy, as the 
bass clef bone should be able to read the notes as written, but just 
change the key sig? Right? I think...

Please shed some light on this for me,
Thanks.
Chip


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--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

2008-11-15 Thread Jonathan Kulp

For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose

To change it to bass clef, just use a command

\clef "bass"

The easiest way to put put music into a different clef/register is to 
store the notes in a variable and simply use different \relative levels 
to put it in the right octave:


%%% start cut-and-paste section %%%

%% define the pitches
notes = { c d e f }

%% start pitches on middle C

\relative c' { \notes }

%% put same pitches in bass clef an 8ve lower

\relative c { \clef "bass" \notes }

%% transpose notes for an e-flat instrument
\transpose es c' { \relative c' { \notes }}

%% transpose from e-flat instrument to concert pitch
\transpose c es, { \relative c'' { \notes } }

%%% end cut-and-paste section %%%

Hope that helps,

Jon

chip wrote:
I have a piece written for Eb Alto Sax and would like to transpose it to 
Bass Clef Trombone. I've read a bunch of posts in the archives and am 
now more confused than ever. It should be relatively easy, as the bass 
clef bone should be able to read the notes as written, but just change 
the key sig? Right? I think...

Please shed some light on this for me,
Thanks.
Chip


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lilypond-user@gnu.org
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--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef