Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
On Nov 27, 2007 8:44 PM, Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 27, 2007 1:02 PM, Kieren MacMillan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Libero, wikipedia article call those time sigs as irrational meters: It's unfortunate (IMO) that such a (mathematical) misnomer has become accepted... Agreed. I think Ferneyhough uses the term only with reluctance; Xenakis refused ... Ok, but it is a metaphor, not a mathematical explanation and many music definitions are metaphoric... that's why Xenakis refused, he was less on the rethorical side -:) (I really respect his music and life... just a little irony). irrationals are the bar lenght whose beats are based on irregular groups (and incomplete... 5/5=1). To me the analogy is quite understandable, even if not correct. I wish I knew enough about Medieval music (or Medieval music theory anyway) to know if the Medieval invetors of duplum and triplum and perfectus and imperfectus and the like ever touched on the topic ... they'd make a good source to steal from ... Anyway, complex ars subtilior music was written without the notion of measure, and thus even for the most irrationals passages of the time, there was not this problem (the problem to write a special time signature, I mean, to fit all voices in a measure). (A good example is prolation ... which I *think* Ferneyhough borrows from prolatio ... though not sure ... and which makes a great cover term for tuplets and all forms of duration scaling in general.) Well, I dont have here a copy of Henry Cowell's book, maybe there is a better definition there, when he speaks about complex rhythmical subdivisions. Could someone check it? A question: in english language, do you say Irrational rhythm? I'm not asking if this is correct or not, just if it is the common practice. In italy we call them Irregular groups! Xenakis would have correctly argued that in a quintuplet there's nothing irregular, I mean, that the subdivision is in 5 equal parts... Ciao Libero -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Libero Mureddu Vanha Viertotie, 21 as 417 00350 Helsinki Finland http://webusers.siba.fi/~limuredd/ http://webusers.siba.fi/%7Elimuredd/ http://www.myspace.com/liberomureddu ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
On 27 Nov 2007, at 22:05, Adam James Wilson wrote: Yes, these time sigtanatures are ridiculous -- but they are needed to produce the visual I'm after. I'm notating an electronic part; I have four performers playing at 4 different tempi, and the electronic part plays groups of four artiuclations, each quantized to a beat in a different tempo -- hence the strange timesigs on the staff containing this part. But I still don't understand Valentin -- you're telling me you can't tap out rhythms in 2667/25276 time? :) The MIDI timing seems to be rather poor, too: according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_timecode it is at best 1/30 second, but could be just 1/24 (as it uses the standard film frame rates). Is this right? Suppose the tempo 1/4 = 120, so the 1/4 note takes 0.5 seconds; then the 1/2 note takes one second, and the 1/30 second is a 2*30 or about a 64th note. Perhaps this is why MIDI code sounds so bad :-) - there isn't enough time resolution for doing subtle time bendings. Hans Åberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
On 27.11.2007 (20:10), Trevor Bača wrote: Oh, Eyolf, what a gem. Thanks so much for the beautiful reference. My pleasure. Honestly -- if you knew how rarely it happens that people ask for these things... and then even enjoy the answer..! :) eyolf -- Time does not count itself. You have only to look at a circle and this is apparent. -- Leto II (The Tyrant) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
2007/11/26, Adam James Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason for this). Just out of curiosity... How good can any reason be? :-) Valentin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
I did some playing last night and was surprised that you can have any denominator for a time signature, so my initial idea is wrong...not that I really understand what 5/9 time would really mean, but obviously LP interprets it.Since it seems to be a lot of code that causes this, perhaps you have to experiment with whittling down the code to isolate the offending commands. I'd be interested in seeing some of the code that uses these odd times. Maybe there is a math error, and another set of eyes and fingers on a calculator can see it. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requestedDate: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:09:12 + Is 11748 a legit denominator for a time signature? 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384...I am a pretty basic writer, so I've never gone beyond time sigs like 13/16.Have to admit the error message text is cute. Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:46:00 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested Hi all, I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason for this). They render nicely for nearly ten pages or so of music, and then suddenly adding an additional strange time signature causes two programming errors: The first comes before drawing begins. going backwards in time, trying to freeze in time . . . The second comes during drawing. insane spring distance requested, ignoring . . .cross fingers Then lily hangs -- it keeps spinning forever. I'm using Lilypond 2.11.34 on a Mac PPC (it also breaks the same way in 2.11.35). I checked my arithmetic many times -- the strange time signtaures eventially lead to a sync-up with aother part in 3/8 meter -- and the math is correct. It seems to be a problem that happens when actually drawing the page. Any clues or similar experiences? Best, Adam ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. Power up! _ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
The same problem was discussed some year ago on this mailing list (or maybe on bug-lilypond), see the archives. /Mats Ed Ardzinski wrote: I did some playing last night and was surprised that you can have any denominator for a time signature, so my initial idea is wrong...not that I really understand what 5/9 time would really mean, but obviously LP interprets it. Since it seems to be a lot of code that causes this, perhaps you have to experiment with whittling down the code to isolate the offending commands. I'd be interested in seeing some of the code that uses these odd times. Maybe there is a math error, and another set of eyes and fingers on a calculator can see it. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: RE: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:09:12 + Is 11748 a legit denominator for a time signature? 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384...I am a pretty basic writer, so I've never gone beyond time sigs like 13/16. Have to admit the error message text is cute. Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:46:00 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested Hi all, I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason for this). They render nicely for nearly ten pages or so of music, and then suddenly adding an additional strange time signature causes two programming errors: The first comes before drawing begins. going backwards in time, trying to freeze in time . . . The second comes during drawing. insane spring distance requested, ignoring . . .cross fingers Then lily hangs -- it keeps spinning forever. I'm using Lilypond 2.11.34 on a Mac PPC (it also breaks the same way in 2.11.35). I checked my arithmetic many times -- the strange time signtaures eventially lead to a sync-up with aother part in 3/8 meter -- and the math is correct. It seems to be a problem that happens when actually drawing the page. Any clues or similar experiences? Best, Adam ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. Power up! http://www.windowslive.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_powerofwindows_112007 You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. Join in! http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=CRM_WL_joinnow ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- = Mats Bengtsson Signal Processing Signals, Sensors and Systems Royal Institute of Technology SE-100 44 STOCKHOLM Sweden Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463 Fax: (+46) 8 790 7260 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe = ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
On Nov 27, 2007 7:31 AM, Ed Ardzinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I did some playing last night and was surprised that you can have any
denominator for a time signature, so my initial idea is wrong...not that I
really understand what 5/9 time would really mean, but obviously LP
interprets it.
OT but entertaining:
:-)
5/9 means a measure of 5 ninth notes, just as 5/8 means a measure of 5
eighth notes.
What is a ninth note?
A ninth note is a note that lasts exactly 1/9 of a whole note (just as an
eighth note is a note that lasts exactly 1/8 of a whole note).
So in the figure ...
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 }
... each of the notes carry the (effective) duration of 1/9 of a whole note
... which makes each of the nine notes above ninth notes.
Now, an absolutely *remarkable* aspect of Lily's duration-handling is that
the following constructions are all valid:
\times 8/9 { c'8 } % a single ninth note
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 } % a pair of ninth notes
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 } % three of them
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 } % four
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 } % five ninth notes
(Try it; this is one of the things that modern(ist) compers discover about
Lily that works out of the box that absolutely amazes us; try doing this
with Finale and Sibelius ... and then trying doing this with these things
crossing *over* barlines ...)
So the meter 5/9 then stands for a measure of exactly five ninth notes:
\new Staff {
\time 5/9
\times 8/9 { c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ] }
|
\time 5/8
c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ]
}
(Notice that the bar check passes just fine showing that Lily's duration
math is all caught up at the end of the first measure.)
Opinions differ as to whether the tuplet should draw over such figures;
there seems, in general, to be a preference against drawing the tuplet:
\new Staff {
\time 5/9
\once \override TupletNumber #'transparent = ##t
\times 8/9 { c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ] }
|
\time 5/8
c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ]
}
So there's that
There's a separate question as to the use or desirability or whatever of
these types of figure. As with most rhythmic innovations, folks seem to
react violently at first and then get used to them. Maybe it helps to see
such figures as exact tempo changes lasting for a single measure; or,
alternately, as broken tuplets where only the first 5 out of 9 nontuplets
appear, for example.
(What frustrates me is that there's appearantly no *name* for the class of
time signatures of the form m/n where n is *not* an integer power of 2. In
my notes I frequently call these things nonbinary meters ... which seems
somehow unfortunate. If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would
love to steal.)
--
Trevor Bača
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
Hi, Trevor: What frustrates me is that there's appearantly no *name* for the class of time signatures of the form m/n where n is *not* an integer power of 2. Fascinating observation! =) If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal. n-ary meters? [...he offered, only half-jokingly...] Best, Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
On Nov 27, 2007 12:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Trevor: What frustrates me is that there's appearantly no *name* for the class of time signatures of the form m/n where n is *not* an integer power of 2. Fascinating observation! =) If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal. n-ary meters? [...he offered, only half-jokingly...] Which would conflict with the senses of binary and ternary meters referring to the (sub)divisions of the *numerators* of meters, right? (6/8 and 9/8 are ternary in traditional score, 2/4, 4/4 are binary ...) How to draw attention to the *denominator*? -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
still ot
i was a founder member of british new music group 'icebreaker' - we
often perform scores with times signatures like 4/6 or 5/12 (four
triplet quarter notes to the bar or 5 eigth-note triplets). earlier,
boulez in le marteau would write time sigs like 'two and two thirds
over 4' or even 'two-thirds over 4', which i think is more confusing
than the equivalent 8/12 or 2/12. you find this newer style of time
sigs a lot in music by michael gordon and yannis kyriakides (and
thomas ades too).
name? we never felt the need to give these a particular name - it was
just a 'five-twelve bar'.
things get messy when you have bars that mix say 'twelves' and
'sixteens'. a piece of mine had a bar length of 'four eigths plus
five twelfths plus five sixteenths' - easy enough to play despite the
rather tongue-in-cheek time sig of 59/48.
i can't immediately see how you'd play 3599/11748 but i'd be
surprised if the math that got you there was so hard.
recently i've taken to defining such time signatures by what they're
missing. eg 9/8 - 1/20 rather than 43/40. either way is really an
aide-memoir and can't be 'read' as such, but in the example i'm
thinking of 9/8 -1/20 is less stressful.
i'm truly amazed that lilypond handles this stuff
d
On 27 Nov 2007, at 16:33, Trevor Bača wrote:
On Nov 27, 2007 7:31 AM, Ed Ardzinski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I did some playing last night and was surprised that you can have
any denominator for a time signature, so my initial idea is
wrong...not that I really understand what 5/9 time would really
mean, but obviously LP interprets it.
OT but entertaining:
:-)
5/9 means a measure of 5 ninth notes, just as 5/8 means a measure
of 5 eighth notes.
What is a ninth note?
A ninth note is a note that lasts exactly 1/9 of a whole note (just
as an eighth note is a note that lasts exactly 1/8 of a whole note).
So in the figure ...
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 }
... each of the notes carry the (effective) duration of 1/9 of a
whole note ... which makes each of the nine notes above ninth notes.
Now, an absolutely *remarkable* aspect of Lily's duration-handling
is that the following constructions are all valid:
\times 8/9 { c'8 } % a single ninth note
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 } % a pair of ninth notes
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 } % three of them
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 } % four
\times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 } % five ninth notes
(Try it; this is one of the things that modern(ist) compers
discover about Lily that works out of the box that absolutely
amazes us; try doing this with Finale and Sibelius ... and then
trying doing this with these things crossing *over* barlines ...)
So the meter 5/9 then stands for a measure of exactly five ninth
notes:
\new Staff {
\time 5/9
\times 8/9 { c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ] }
|
\time 5/8
c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ]
}
(Notice that the bar check passes just fine showing that Lily's
duration math is all caught up at the end of the first measure.)
Opinions differ as to whether the tuplet should draw over such
figures; there seems, in general, to be a preference against
drawing the tuplet:
\new Staff {
\time 5/9
\once \override TupletNumber #'transparent = ##t
\times 8/9 { c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ] }
|
\time 5/8
c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ]
}
So there's that
There's a separate question as to the use or desirability or
whatever of these types of figure. As with most rhythmic
innovations, folks seem to react violently at first and then get
used to them. Maybe it helps to see such figures as exact tempo
changes lasting for a single measure; or, alternately, as broken
tuplets where only the first 5 out of 9 nontuplets appear, for
example.
(What frustrates me is that there's appearantly no *name* for the
class of time signatures of the form m/n where n is *not* an
integer power of 2. In my notes I frequently call these things
nonbinary meters ... which seems somehow unfortunate. If anybody
has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal.)
--
Trevor Bača
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
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Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
Hi Trevor wikipedia article call those time sigs as irrational meters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature further investigation showed that Ferneyhough himself calls them irrational, so, probably, this is a quite good definition: http://www.sospeso.com/contents/articles/ferneyhough_p1.html in my experience this notation is quite useful if you have a broken bar that it would be impossible to write differently, even if many players told me that they prefer to see an incomplete bar (even without time signature) with the tuplet sign (or with nested tuplets) because for them the rhythmical relation with previous bars is more direct than with a change of time sig. my 2 cents regards, Libero If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal. n-ary meters? [...he offered, only half-jokingly...] -- Libero Mureddu Vanha Viertotie, 21 as 417 00350 Helsinki Finland http://webusers.siba.fi/~limuredd/ http://www.myspace.com/liberomureddu ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
Hi Libero, wikipedia article call those time sigs as irrational meters: It's unfortunate (IMO) that such a (mathematical) misnomer has become accepted... Cheers, Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
Hi Trevor, Which would conflict with the senses of binary and ternary Good point. How to draw attention to the *denominator*? How about n-rational or n-plex meters? So powers of two would be 2-plex (or duplex) meters, powers of three would be 3-plex (triplex), etc. ?? Cheers, Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
On Nov 27, 2007 1:06 PM, Kieren MacMillan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Trevor, Which would conflict with the senses of binary and ternary Good point. How to draw attention to the *denominator*? How about n-rational or n-plex meters? So powers of two would be 2-plex (or duplex) meters, powers of three would be 3-plex (triplex), etc. So what would be anything-other-than-(power-of)-2-plex? ;-) -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
Trevor: So what would be anything-other-than-(power-of)-2-plex? ;-) non-duplex? Better yet, the partially-punny contraction: nuplex! =) Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
On Nov 27, 2007 1:02 PM, Kieren MacMillan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Libero, wikipedia article call those time sigs as irrational meters: It's unfortunate (IMO) that such a (mathematical) misnomer has become accepted... Agreed. I think Ferneyhough uses the term only with reluctance; Xenakis refused ... I wish I knew enough about Medieval music (or Medieval music theory anyway) to know if the Medieval invetors of duplum and triplum and perfectus and imperfectus and the like ever touched on the topic ... they'd make a good source to steal from ... (A good example is prolation ... which I *think* Ferneyhough borrows from prolatio ... though not sure ... and which makes a great cover term for tuplets and all forms of duration scaling in general.) -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
On 27 Nov 2007, at 19:06, Trevor Bača wrote: If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal. n-ary meters? [...he offered, only half-jokingly...] Which would conflict with the senses of binary and ternary meters referring to the (sub)divisions of the *numerators* of meters, right? (6/8 and 9/8 are ternary in traditional score, 2/4, 4/4 are binary ...) There are in fact two traditions here: In the Germanic one (also used in Sweden), only time signature where the upper number is 2 (resp. 3) are called binary (resp. ternary). The English (or Latin) does something else like what you say. And it is formally incorrect to call the upper number a numerator, as a time signature written as m n is defined as the note of duration 1/n taken m times. Hans Aberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
On 27 Nov 2007, at 19:15, Damian Legassick wrote: i can't immediately see how you'd play 3599/11748 but i'd be surprised if the math that got you there was so hard. The question is where the metric accents are. There are three different possibilities already for 9 = 4+2+3. I think the beaming used on this one used by Bartok might be wrong, if it is the common Romanian meter he implies. recently i've taken to defining such time signatures by what they're missing. eg 9/8 - 1/20 rather than 43/40. either way is really an aide-memoir and can't be 'read' as such, but in the example i'm thinking of 9/8 -1/20 is less stressful. The Bulgarian Eleno Mome can be written in say 13 = 4+4+2+3, order to indicate a time bending on the last beat. In reality, though, one may play something like 4+4+2+3.5. I think it is perhaps better to write it in 7 = 2+2+1+2, and indicate the time bending with other means than a complicated time signature. Sometimes it can be difficult to assign a meter notation at all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_dances http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leventikos Hans Aberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
On 27.11.2007 (13:44), Trevor Bača wrote: I wish I knew enough about Medieval music (or Medieval music theory anyway) to know if the Medieval invetors of duplum and triplum and perfectus and imperfectus and the like ever touched on the topic ... they'd make a good source to steal from ... Oh, they did, they did... Not the medieval guys, but their early-renaissance followers, such as Franchino Gaffurio, who, as far as I remember, is the one who does the most thorough presentation of all the different alternatives: http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tml/15th/GAFPM4_TEXT.html The principle is an extension of the nomenclature of sesquialtera (3:2) and sesquitertia (4:3) etc., and particularly the names with -partiens and -particularis. As the complexities grow, so do the names: 30:7 is called Quadruplasuperbipartiensseptimas... sesqui-: numerator one higher than denominator subsesqui-: denom. one higher than num. superpartiens: num. contains den. plus a specified part of itself, e.g. supertripartiensquinta = 8:5, supersexcupartiensseptima=13:7, etc. subsuperpartiens: same as the former, only upside down: supersexcupartiensseptima=7:13 etc. Charming system, but not very practical... However ... (A good example is prolation ... which I *think* Ferneyhough borrows from prolatio ... though not sure ... and which makes a great cover term for tuplets and all forms of duration scaling in general.) True -- it is basically the same word as relation, which makes it a good generic term which still -- while not in general use -- retains some specificity. I'd go for prolations for all those odd meters. (No, really, I'd go for writing simple tunes in 4/4 :) Eyolf -- _-^--^=-_ _.-^^ -~_ _-- --_ ) | | \._ _./ ```--. . , ; .--''' | | | .-=|| | |=-. `-=#$%%$#=-' | ; :| _.,-#%[EMAIL PROTECTED]#~,._ ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
On 27.11.2007 (21:48), Eyolf Oestrem wrote: subsuperpartiens: same as the former, only upside down: supersexcupartiensseptima=7:13 That should of course have been SUBsupersexcupartiensseptima... how stupid of me... Eyolf -- No discipline is ever requisite to force attendance upon lectures which are really worth the attending. -- Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
Yes, these time sigtanatures are ridiculous -- but they are needed to produce the visual I'm after. I'm notating an electronic part; I have four performers playing at 4 different tempi, and the electronic part plays groups of four artiuclations, each quantized to a beat in a different tempo -- hence the strange timesigs on the staff containing this part. But I still don't understand Valentin -- you're telling me you can't tap out rhythms in 2667/25276 time? :) Best, Adam On 11/27/07, Valentin Villenave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2007/11/26, Adam James Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason for this). Just out of curiosity... How good can any reason be? :-) Valentin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Time signatures contd. (was Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring )
On the subject of time signatures with a denominator-base other than two, Henry Cowell in his book New Musical Resources proposes a notation system with different shaped note-heads to represent different base-lengths. This should be quite easy to implement in Lilypond. Might see if I can do that just for the fun... On Nov 27, 2007, at 9:54 PM, Eyolf Østrem wrote: On 27.11.2007 (21:48), Eyolf Oestrem wrote: subsuperpartiens: same as the former, only upside down: supersexcupartiensseptima=7:13 That should of course have been SUBsupersexcupartiensseptima... how stupid of me... Eyolf -- No discipline is ever requisite to force attendance upon lectures which are really worth the attending. -- Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
It is nice to see everyone is so interested in my strange fractions -- it is great that these are possible in lilypond. However, I'm still not sure what is breaking my code. Possibilities are: 1. I'm making some syntactical mistake. 2. I made a math error someplace. 3. There's a real bug. Unfortunately, the code for the piece is rather long and messy, and I don't know if I can pare it down and produce a similar error. I hestitate to ask someone to take a look at my work and double check it, but if there is a brave soul out there with some free time and a penchant for multiplying fractions, I'd be happy to send you a zip of the files. Best, Adam ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Time signatures contd. (was Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring )
On 27 Nov 2007, at 22:05, Vivian Barty-Taylor wrote:
On the subject of time signatures with a denominator-base other
than two, Henry Cowell in his book New Musical Resources proposes
a notation system with different shaped note-heads to represent
different base-lengths. This should be quite easy to implement in
Lilypond. Might see if I can do that just for the fun...
I have an idea of making outline flags, and then in effect write out
binary numbers (as the system already is binary). Easy to remember,
and probably not difficult to implement.
The problem is really quadruplets: in for example the proportion 4:3,
there is no need for such extensions. But writing a series of dotted
notes instead of a quadruplet communicates a different musical idea.
So n-uplets communicates the idea of a general division into n parts.
Here is a fun example:
{
\time 2/8
\times 2/3 { e16 f16 } g8 \times 2/3 { a16 } |
}
(There seems to be a bug in the output.)
Hans Åberg
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Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
On Nov 27, 2007 2:48 PM, Eyolf Østrem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 27.11.2007 (13:44), Trevor Bača wrote: I wish I knew enough about Medieval music (or Medieval music theory anyway) to know if the Medieval invetors of duplum and triplum and perfectus and imperfectus and the like ever touched on the topic ... they'd make a good source to steal from ... Oh, they did, they did... Not the medieval guys, but their early-renaissance followers, such as Franchino Gaffurio, who, as far as I remember, is the one who does the most thorough presentation of all the different alternatives: http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tml/15th/GAFPM4_TEXT.html The principle is an extension of the nomenclature of sesquialtera (3:2) and sesquitertia (4:3) etc., and particularly the names with -partiens and -particularis. As the complexities grow, so do the names: 30:7 is called Quadruplasuperbipartiensseptimas... sesqui-: numerator one higher than denominator subsesqui-: denom. one higher than num. superpartiens: num. contains den. plus a specified part of itself, e.g. supertripartiensquinta = 8:5, supersexcupartiensseptima=13:7, etc. subsuperpartiens: same as the former, only upside down: supersexcupartiensseptima=7:13 etc. Charming system, but not very practical... Oh, Eyolf, what a gem. Thanks so much for the beautiful reference. And, yes: not very practical, but how fascinating ... :-) -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring
Charming system, but not very practical... Oh, Eyolf, what a gem. Thanks so much for the beautiful reference. And, yes: not very practical, but how fascinating ... Practicality is overrated. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
On 27 Nov 2007, at 22:05, Adam James Wilson wrote: But I still don't understand Valentin -- you're telling me you can't tap out rhythms in 2667/25276 time? :) I think that if the 1/4 has a reasonable tempo, say 1/4 = 120, then the shortest discernible time values will be around 1/128, and they will then be perceived as some slight time bends. At this speed, trills and the like, are typically executed on the 1/32 note. Hans Åberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
Hi all, I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason for this). They render nicely for nearly ten pages or so of music, and then suddenly adding an additional strange time signature causes two programming errors: The first comes before drawing begins. going backwards in time, trying to freeze in time . . . The second comes during drawing. insane spring distance requested, ignoring . . .cross fingers Then lily hangs -- it keeps spinning forever. I'm using Lilypond 2.11.34 on a Mac PPC (it also breaks the same way in 2.11.35). I checked my arithmetic many times -- the strange time signtaures eventially lead to a sync-up with aother part in 3/8 meter -- and the math is correct. It seems to be a problem that happens when actually drawing the page. Any clues or similar experiences? Best, Adam ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested
Is 11748 a legit denominator for a time signature? 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384...I am a pretty basic writer, so I've never gone beyond time sigs like 13/16.Have to admit the error message text is cute. Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:46:00 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: hang --going backwards in time; insane spring distance requested Hi all, I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason for this). They render nicely for nearly ten pages or so of music, and then suddenly adding an additional strange time signature causes two programming errors: The first comes before drawing begins. going backwards in time, trying to freeze in time . . . The second comes during drawing. insane spring distance requested, ignoring . . .cross fingers Then lily hangs -- it keeps spinning forever. I'm using Lilypond 2.11.34 on a Mac PPC (it also breaks the same way in 2.11.35). I checked my arithmetic many times -- the strange time signtaures eventially lead to a sync-up with aother part in 3/8 meter -- and the math is correct. It seems to be a problem that happens when actually drawing the page. Any clues or similar experiences? Best, Adam ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user _ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
