Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
2007/9/24, Henning Hraban Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As Mark Knoop wrote, (indeed das) Tupel is normally a vector and as a musical term seems to be as common as tuplet. For the German tuplets named Duole, Triole, Quartole, Quintole/Pentole etc. the neologism would have to be die Tupole, but I guess that's silly. In French, no generic term exist; when we translated the documentation we had to create a rather ugly mathematical word: since the terms we use are triolet == meaning triplet quartolet quintolet etc... We created the n-olet which is a neologism I haven't seen anywhere in French. But when I'll translate the comic into French, I think I'll just use triolet since it's by far the most common word. Valentin In order to also participate in this discussion, which also seems to confer to me ;-). The German translator, being me, has decided to use as well the N-tole construct which I remember having heard from my music theacher in high school. On other places in the manual I used rhythmische Konstruktionen, because the N-tole seemed to be so mathematical to me. Actually it wasn't hard guessing the tuplet meaning, probably being used to it from the Finale manual some years ago... but I hadn't heard of the word Tuplet before. Greetings Till ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
It seems to be a big problem for all of as. I am wanna-be polish translator and I have to admit that in my mother language people use tuplet, but only those who know Finale. None of encyclopedias, none of dictionaries I have mention that word. So what should I do? What should we do? Shell we use the Finale word? Use rhytmische Konstruktionen orkonstrukcje rytmiczne? rhythmic group, figure? Should we find out a new LP name for that thing? Or anyone of us should make the decision alone? Best regards michał ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
2007/9/21, Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In German the word is Tupel vs. Duole, Triole, Pentole etc. I never really heard Tupel in musical context, only mathemathically. My musical lexicon doesn't know it - but my favourite online dictionary doesn't know tuplet either. Yeah, I may be spreading unsubstantiated rumours here, but the term seems definitely to have shown up first in English (rather than FR or DE) and I *think* it actually originated in an early version of the Finale user manual (God help us). I've never been able to verify this last bit, but, if true, it would at least explain why the word doesn't seem to exist in any EN dictionaries yet. Henning, is das (?) Tupel the same word that gets used in math to talk about ordered collections of stuff like (17, 18, 29)? EN has tuple for such things ... and tuplet (with the final t) seems to be a completely novel musical term backformed from triplet, quadruplet, quintuplet, [s|h]extuplet, etc. Maybe DE has to make due with only one form of the word? Or possibly you guys could borrow in Tuplet? Or perhaps that simply looks absurd ... As Mark Knoop wrote, (indeed das) Tupel is normally a vector and as a musical term seems to be as common as tuplet. For the German tuplets named Duole, Triole, Quartole, Quintole/Pentole etc. the neologism would have to be die Tupole, but I guess that's silly. Greetlings, Hraban ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
2007/9/24, Henning Hraban Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As Mark Knoop wrote, (indeed das) Tupel is normally a vector and as a musical term seems to be as common as tuplet. For the German tuplets named Duole, Triole, Quartole, Quintole/Pentole etc. the neologism would have to be die Tupole, but I guess that's silly. In French, no generic term exist; when we translated the documentation we had to create a rather ugly mathematical word: since the terms we use are triolet == meaning triplet quartolet quintolet etc... We created the n-olet which is a neologism I haven't seen anywhere in French. But when I'll translate the comic into French, I think I'll just use triolet since it's by far the most common word. Valentin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
2007/9/21, Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yeah, I may be spreading unsubstantiated rumours here, but the term seems definitely to have shown up first in English (rather than FR or DE) and I *think* it actually originated in an early version of the Finale user manual (God help us). I've never been able to verify this last bit, but, if true, it would at least explain why the word doesn't seem to exist in any EN dictionaries yet. Does this mean that we should consider not using the word? Not that I have anything against Finale (hehe :-), but do we have to copy their strange nomenclature? The question is, I suppose: - is it a good term (perhaps it is; are there any alternatives for a cover-all term for -- eh, for tuplets...?) - is the term so well-established in note-typesetting circles that it would be strange not to use it, even if the answer to the first question is no? Personally, I thought it was a strange term when I first came across it -- yes, in the Finale manual -- especially since 90% of all tuplets are TRIplets, but on the other hand, once one gets used to it, it is a handy term. Just wondering. Eyolf -- It is commonly reported, my dear Georad, that there exists great natural virtue in the melange experience. Perhaps this is true. There remain within me, however, profound doubts that every use of melange always brings virtue. Me seems that certain persons have corrupted the use of melange in defiance of God. In the words of the Ecumenon, they have disfigured the soul. They skim the surface of melange and believe thereby to attain grace.: They deride their fellows, do great harm to godliness, and they distort the meaning of this abundant gift maliciously, surely a mutilation beyond the power of man to restore. To be truly at one with the virtue of the spice, uncorrupted in all ways, full of goodly honor, a man must permit his deeds and his words to agree. When your actions describe a system of evil consequences, you should be judged by those consequences and not by your explanations. It is thus that we should judge Muad'Dib. -- The Pedant Heresy ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
Am 2007-09-24 um 14:24 schrieb Valentin Villenave: In French, no generic term exist; when we translated the documentation we had to create a rather ugly mathematical word: since the terms we use are triolet == meaning triplet quartolet quintolet etc... We created the n-olet which is a neologism I haven't seen anywhere in French. If we do the same in German, we get n-Ole/Nole. The half of that would be a Seminole. ;-) Greetlings from Lake Constance --- fiëé visuëlle Henning Hraban Ramm http://www.fiee.net http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/ https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
2007/9/24, Valentin Villenave [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In French, no generic term exist; when we translated the documentation we had to create a rather ugly mathematical word: since the terms we use are triolet == meaning triplet quartolet quintolet etc... In Spanish there is a generic term but it's a bit long: grupos de valoración especial which I'd reverse translate to special timing groups. In the manual I have abbreviated it as grupos especiales Now maybe it would be the time to invent the word N-illo meaning TRESillo, CUATRillo etc. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) http://www.paconet.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
On 9/19/07, fiëé visuëlle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am 2007-09-17 um 17:00 schrieb Valentin Villenave: Trevor: there can be *no* name for such hideous rhythms... :) We may use rythmes irrationnels (one h, two ns), or monnayages, but generally speaking the terms we use for such *things* are so rude I can't consider posting any of them here... even in French ;) :-D In German the word is Tupel vs. Duole, Triole, Pentole etc. I never really heard Tupel in musical context, only mathemathically. My musical lexicon doesn't know it - but my favourite online dictionary doesn't know tuplet either. Yeah, I may be spreading unsubstantiated rumours here, but the term seems definitely to have shown up first in English (rather than FR or DE) and I *think* it actually originated in an early version of the Finale user manual (God help us). I've never been able to verify this last bit, but, if true, it would at least explain why the word doesn't seem to exist in any EN dictionaries yet. The word tuplet is certainly used in Coda Music Technology's Finale PrintMusic2000 manual, copyrighted 1999, to mean triplets, quintuplets, and so on. (I used this before I discovered LP, and still have a copy). Don't know if this was the first occurrence though. Henning, is das (?) Tupel the same word that gets used in math to talk about ordered collections of stuff like (17, 18, 29)? EN has tuple for such things ... and tuplet (with the final t) seems to be a completely novel musical term backformed from triplet, quadruplet, quintuplet, [s|h]extuplet, etc. Maybe DE has to make due with only one form of the word? Or possibly you guys could borrow in Tuplet? Or perhaps that simply looks absurd ... Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
2007/9/22, Trevor Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The word tuplet is certainly used in Coda Music Technology's Finale PrintMusic2000 manual, copyrighted 1999, to mean triplets, quintuplets, and so on. (I used this before I discovered LP, and still have a copy). Don't know if this was the first occurrence though. Great... Let's patent it before they do! :) V.Villenave ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
Valentin Villenave wrote: 2007/9/22, Trevor Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The word tuplet is certainly used in Coda Music Technology's Finale PrintMusic2000 manual, copyrighted 1999, to mean triplets, quintuplets, and so on. (I used this before I discovered LP, and still have a copy). Don't know if this was the first occurrence though. The OED has it only as: MATH. An entity or set with a given number of elements, a vector. Grove does not include it at all (only having duplet, triplet, etc). That said, I've experienced the word in common usage (admittedly amongst composers and contemporary music performers) for at least 10 years, mainly as an easier way to refer to particularly large irrationals. -- Mark Knoop ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
On 9/19/07, fiëé visuëlle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am 2007-09-17 um 17:00 schrieb Valentin Villenave: Trevor: there can be *no* name for such hideous rhythms... :) We may use rythmes irrationnels (one h, two ns), or monnayages, but generally speaking the terms we use for such *things* are so rude I can't consider posting any of them here... even in French ;) :-D In German the word is Tupel vs. Duole, Triole, Pentole etc. I never really heard Tupel in musical context, only mathemathically. My musical lexicon doesn't know it - but my favourite online dictionary doesn't know tuplet either. Yeah, I may be spreading unsubstantiated rumours here, but the term seems definitely to have shown up first in English (rather than FR or DE) and I *think* it actually originated in an early version of the Finale user manual (God help us). I've never been able to verify this last bit, but, if true, it would at least explain why the word doesn't seem to exist in any EN dictionaries yet. Henning, is das (?) Tupel the same word that gets used in math to talk about ordered collections of stuff like (17, 18, 29)? EN has tuple for such things ... and tuplet (with the final t) seems to be a completely novel musical term backformed from triplet, quadruplet, quintuplet, [s|h]extuplet, etc. Maybe DE has to make due with only one form of the word? Or possibly you guys could borrow in Tuplet? Or perhaps that simply looks absurd ... -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
Am 2007-09-17 um 17:00 schrieb Valentin Villenave: Trevor: there can be *no* name for such hideous rhythms... :) We may use rythmes irrationnels (one h, two ns), or monnayages, but generally speaking the terms we use for such *things* are so rude I can't consider posting any of them here... even in French ;) In German the word is Tupel vs. Duole, Triole, Pentole etc. I never really heard Tupel in musical context, only mathemathically. My musical lexicon doesn't know it - but my favourite online dictionary doesn't know tuplet either. Greetlings from Lake Constance --- fiëé visuëlle Henning Hraban Ramm http://www.fiee.net http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/ https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
