Re: [LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 18:31:29 -0800 (PST), Len Ovens wrote:
>Being able to pitch change each note separately. Having many more CCs.
>Just to name a few. Guitar to MIDI can make good use of it.
I'm playing a Roland GR-55 guitar synth. It has got a MIDI input, but
it does not recognize note numbers. The rational for this might be
related to the way the synth is able to use the signals of the hex
pickup and that apart from the PCM tones, the patches could contain
modeling. Modeling doesn't just mean guitar and amp emulations, it's
also for modeling an analog synth. The MIDI output provides all MIDI
data, but that data can't compare to the data used by the synth. OTOH
the MIDI settings provide to turn chromatic output on and off, actually
it's turned off, but the output is chromatic, IOW I don't understand
this setting for the MIDI output. The chromatic switch for the PCM
tones is interesting. The tones are played in chromatic steps, even if a
string is bend, the pitch will change in semitones, when turned on. If
it's turned off, the PCM tones follow the real pitch of each string.
This is very cool, but hardly usable, since each noise a string does
produce has got impact, when turned off. Even the most accurate guitar
player can't avoid e.g. fret noise of new strings. IOW if the
sensitivity settings of the hex pickup are chosen to track nuances of
the guitarists playing, it requires to turn chromatic on, since if it's
turned off, it's nearly impossible to avoid unwanted notes. The current
generation of guitar synth does not allow practicable usage of all
provided abilities.
While MIDI 2 might be able to transmit the real data that is produced
when chromatic is turned off, it's not much usable and regarding
modeling MIDI anyway is the wrong interface.
To replace my keyboard by the guitar, MIDI 1 already does the job. At
the moment I play synth most of the times via a 12.9" touch screen,
usually just to produce regular MIDI 1 data. A touch screen could also
produce MIDI 1 incompatible data, but it's very seldom useful.
The MIDI we know has got several pitfalls and indeed some
improvements are very good, but all in all it already does everything a
musician does need. Yes, to control a mechanical monstrosity, such as a
robot piano MIDI isn't an adequate interface and I doubt that this
would change by a new MIDI standard.
A guitar synth does use the guitar as an input device, via a hex
pickup. It isn't a robot guitar, there are no stepper motors picking,
slapping, muting etc. the strings for playback.
It's not the MIDI standard that fails to play a robot piano, the
designers are idiots, if they use MIDI to control this kind of robot.
MIDI 2 could be useful for guitar synth, especially for guitar synth of
the next generation. A new MIDI standard could also be useful to get
rid of a few pitfalls, but it unlikely will become a robot interface.
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Re: [LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
On Sun, 20 Jan 2019, Ralf Mattes wrote: In terms of velocity vs. amplitude I would guess that 127 levels at 1db per level covers more than most ADC's would show. At .5db per level the range is still probably wider than the dynamic range available in a nice quiet studio/sound stage... so I would hope that the range of timbre differences makes a wider range of velocities worth while. I would like to see a blind AB test where the same performance is rendered by the same synth in both MIDI 1 and MIDI 2. Not what our piano teachers say ;-) I believe you... That is hardly blind AB testing though. Mr. young tells us that remastering to 24bits/192k will bring out things in his earlier recordings originally recorded on tape too. What I find interesting (funny) is that the one thing in MIDI 2 that would make the least difference to someone's performance is the one thing people want. The good things about MIDI2 in my mind are things like being able to have an untempered or variable scale. Being able to pitch change each note separately. Having many more CCs. Just to name a few. Guitar to MIDI can make good use of it. Some of the new stick like controllers might do well too. But keyboards? subtle at best I think. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] ?==?utf-8?q? Potential MIDI headaches?
Am Samstag, 19. Januar 2019 23:40 CET, Len Ovens schrieb: > > Cool. I do wonder where the sample sets are that actually have 127 samples > per note. No, those people don't use samples - we are talking full-size grand pianos here. Those Disklaviers record and play back performances on actual concert instruments. Think of it as a digital version of a Welte-Mignon player piano (the company has it's origins here in Freiburg/Germany). The local museum does regular concerts with roles recorded by famous soloist/composers from the first half of the last century. IIRC the velocity resolution on those roles is higher than the 7 bits used by midi. > Certainly Pianoteq might have a full range but most of the > electric pianos I have heard sound more like in "Bennie" than anything > that actually came from strings. I am talking about the people who walk > into a music store and buy an electric piano or other stage keyboard. > > Now any of those people would prefer to sit down in front of an acoustic > piano, but none of them can afford (or are willing to afford) an electric > stage/home piano which actually sounds real. Remember that "most" people > would never think about using a keyboard controller to get sound from > their computer. ??? > In the case of keyboard synth combinations, where the signal path is > kb->midi->internal synth. MIDI 2 may show some improvements that even the > average person will notice. In time such an instrument may even be cheap > enough for "most" people. However, it seems to me that the synth in the > pianos I have seen does not even fully use the 128 velocity values > available now. IIRC the Roli keyboards have better resolution and those are used quite often for contemporary music performance. Some Casio E-Pianos seem to have high-resolution velocity values (14 bit), see https://support.casio.com/storage/en/manual/pdf/EN/008/PX760_860_1500_160_AP260_460_MIDI_E_EN.pdf > In terms of velocity vs. amplitude I would guess that 127 levels at 1db > per level covers more than most ADC's would show. At .5db per level the > range is still probably wider than the dynamic range available in a nice > quiet studio/sound stage... so I would hope that the range of timbre > differences makes a wider range of velocities worth while. I would like to > see a blind AB test where the same performance is rendered by the same > synth in both MIDI 1 and MIDI 2. Not what our piano teachers say ;-) Cheers, RalfD > > -- > Len Ovens > www.ovenwerks.net > ___ > Linux-audio-dev mailing list > Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org > https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
On Sat, 19 Jan 2019, Ralf Mattes wrote: Well, it all depends :-) I my world there's a group of users for whose field standard MIDI just does'nt work: teaching and researching professional piano playing. The main obstacle is (the missing) velocity/volume/attack speed resolution. So our teachers and researchers need to use the partly-proprietary Yamaha Disklavier. So,for them, a modern MIDI 2 is appreciated. Cool. I do wonder where the sample sets are that actually have 127 samples per note. Certainly Pianoteq might have a full range but most of the electric pianos I have heard sound more like in "Bennie" than anything that actually came from strings. I am talking about the people who walk into a music store and buy an electric piano or other stage keyboard. Now any of those people would prefer to sit down in front of an acoustic piano, but none of them can afford (or are willing to afford) an electric stage/home piano which actually sounds real. Remember that "most" people would never think about using a keyboard controller to get sound from their computer. In the case of keyboard synth combinations, where the signal path is kb->midi->internal synth. MIDI 2 may show some improvements that even the average person will notice. In time such an instrument may even be cheap enough for "most" people. However, it seems to me that the synth in the pianos I have seen does not even fully use the 128 velocity values available now. In terms of velocity vs. amplitude I would guess that 127 levels at 1db per level covers more than most ADC's would show. At .5db per level the range is still probably wider than the dynamic range available in a nice quiet studio/sound stage... so I would hope that the range of timbre differences makes a wider range of velocities worth while. I would like to see a blind AB test where the same performance is rendered by the same synth in both MIDI 1 and MIDI 2. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 13:26:55 -0800 (PST) Len wrote: > While the 5pin din may be gone (not really, musicians like vintage > gear) i would not even denote the 5-pin DIN as "legacy" - it is still the de-facto standard by the fact that nothing else has replaced it within its niche (USB is a generic standard) - if you buy any of the cheap-o MIDI controllers from amazon, walmart, ebay, etc, (i just did) they come with a USB plug on one end of a 6-ft cord, and (2) 5-pin DINs (in and out) on the other end ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] ?==?utf-8?q? Potential MIDI headaches?
Am Samstag, 19. Januar 2019 22:26 CET, Len Ovens schrieb: > In my experience as a musician, I meet a lot of > piano players for whom the difference bewteen MIDI 1 and MIDI 2 is just a > number (like 192k ADC) and would not affect their performance. However, I > have > not met very many keyboard artists aside from those who work from their > bedroom > and who's music I only hear on youtube, soundcloud, etc. I do not know how > much > difference MIDI 2 would make for most of these people either. Epecially > concidering how many of them use either their qwerty kb to enter notes or a > one > or two octave unit without even velocity... > > In fact MIDI 2 seems to be a thing mostly for non-kb instruments or computer > generated material (most of which is probably using CV instead of MIDI > anyway). > Well, it all depends :-) I my world there's a group of users for whose field standard MIDI just does'nt work: teaching and researching professional piano playing. The main obstacle is (the missing) velocity/volume/attack speed resolution. So our teachers and researchers need to use the partly-proprietary Yamaha Disklavier. So,for them, a modern MIDI 2 is appreciated. Cheers, RalfD ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 13:26:55 -0800 (PST) Len Ovens wrote: >In fact MIDI 2 seems to be a thing mostly for non-kb instruments or computer >generated material (most of which is probably using CV instead of MIDI anyway). > >MIDI 1 was huge, My DX7 supported MIDI before the spec was complete. It is >easy >to show off in the music store and sell. I expect the switch to MIDI 2 will be >a much longer road, very hard to show off from a keyboard. > >Well thats my opinion anyway. > >-- >Len Ovens >www.ovenwerks.net More details https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDyXDeLbmeE I watched this earlier. It seems the MMA have indeed done their homework. MIDI 1.0 is definitely not going away. The new system will be fully backward compatible, and will negotiate for the improvements, falling back to 1.0 if no response is seen. -- It wasn't me! (Well actually, it probably was) ... the hard part is not dodging what life throws at you, but trying to catch the good bits. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
On Sat, 19 Jan 2019, Will Godfrey wrote: I've just been told about this. https://www.midi.org/articles-old/the-midi-manufacturers-association-mma-and-the-association-of-music-electronics-industry-amei-announce-midi-2-0tm-prototyping?fbclid=IwAR3yojtbqXc52uTwrBV4uaUV7JdsMHMKIXA2NudhUH4mw8uPlmbxAPoDW3Q Looks like we might have quite a lot of work to do :/ While the 5pin din may be gone (not really, musicians like vintage gear), MIDI 1.0 is not dead. It apears it has taken a sledge hammer to get people to use VST3 and the MMA doesn't really have the same power. I think that MIDI 1.0 is going to be around for a long time yet and that all new controllers will have the abillity to send MIDI 1.0. In my experience as a musician, I meet a lot of piano players for whom the difference bewteen MIDI 1 and MIDI 2 is just a number (like 192k ADC) and would not affect their performance. However, I have not met very many keyboard artists aside from those who work from their bedroom and who's music I only hear on youtube, soundcloud, etc. I do not know how much difference MIDI 2 would make for most of these people either. Epecially concidering how many of them use either their qwerty kb to enter notes or a one or two octave unit without even velocity... In fact MIDI 2 seems to be a thing mostly for non-kb instruments or computer generated material (most of which is probably using CV instead of MIDI anyway). MIDI 1 was huge, My DX7 supported MIDI before the spec was complete. It is easy to show off in the music store and sell. I expect the switch to MIDI 2 will be a much longer road, very hard to show off from a keyboard. Well thats my opinion anyway. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 12:20:23 +0100 Ralf wrote: > So if your app works well with the current MIDI, you don't need to > migrate to MIDI 2.0. oh, how true that resonates i am just amazed at how many people are obsessed with novelty and would disagree with that (perfectly reasonable and accurate) statement - to many, the mere fact that v.N+1 exists, automatically renders v.N as: "old cheese", with an imperative to discard it immediately (for no other reason), as to avoid being accused of falling behind the cool kids on the bleeding edge for people who think that way, the merits of backward-compatibility do not carry much weight in comparison to the sexier "disruptive" approach - in fact it is more likely to be seen as ridiculous or irresponsible to make use of any "old" thing that could potentially be replaced by some newer and shinier thing, regardless of compatibility or any true benefit (or lack thereof) in doing so because after all, '2' is clearly better (and much more awesome) than '1' :) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 09:47:56 +, Will Godfrey wrote:
>I've just been told about this.
>https://www.midi.org/articles-old/the-midi-manufacturers-association-mma-and-the-association-of-music-electronics-industry-amei-announce-midi-2-0tm-prototyping?fbclid=IwAR3yojtbqXc52uTwrBV4uaUV7JdsMHMKIXA2NudhUH4mw8uPlmbxAPoDW3Q
>
>Looks like we might have quite a lot of work to do :/
"Backwards compatibility is a key requirement." -
https://www.midi.org/articles-old/midi-manufacturers-association-mma-adopts-midi-capability-inquiry-midi-ci-specification
So if your app works well with the current MIDI, you don't need to
migrate to MIDI 2.0.
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[LAD] Potential MIDI headaches?
I've just been told about this. https://www.midi.org/articles-old/the-midi-manufacturers-association-mma-and-the-association-of-music-electronics-industry-amei-announce-midi-2-0tm-prototyping?fbclid=IwAR3yojtbqXc52uTwrBV4uaUV7JdsMHMKIXA2NudhUH4mw8uPlmbxAPoDW3Q Looks like we might have quite a lot of work to do :/ -- Will J Godfrey http://www.musically.me.uk Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
