Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On 31 Dec 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use IE so the extra expense is not warranted. The real point is 5. Bottom line: it costs much more to create and *maintain* a site with advanced IE features. Another point is that users would like more minimalistic and standards-compliant sites better than sites with a lot of bandwidth-overloading, DHTML/JS, useless bells and whistells madness. Making your site basic and portable will eventually make it much more popular, even among MSIE users. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups... Wait a second - is n a natural number? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Well, we are drifting into the web and user interface design territory, but the point I made can be concluded from other points in the original list - pop-ups, annoying graphics, heavy load, relliance on particular browser version (even particular IE versions) all will drive away potential customers. -Original Message- From: Oleg Goldshmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use IE so the extra expense is not warranted. The real point is 5. Bottom line: it costs much more to create and *maintain* a site with advanced IE features. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Your email is protected by Mailshell -- As you requested, this email was forwarded to you by Mailshell. Mailshell will forward your replies to this email and keep your private email address safe. To unsubscribe safely and easily using Mailshell or to stop forwarding: http://www.mailshell.com/control.html?a=blshp8bbumg87yq1j9157q v2pz6_58z35eg0 FreshAddress.com http://rd.mailshell.com/ad482 Earn up to $3 for each of your friends who signs up with Mailshell! http://rd.mailshell.com/sp5 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Yes, that's the spirit of my message. Thanks. -Original Message- From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ilshell.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client On 31 Dec 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use IE so the extra expense is not warranted. The real point is 5. Bottom line: it costs much more to create and *maintain* a site with advanced IE features. Another point is that users would like more minimalistic and standards-compliant sites better than sites with a lot of bandwidth-overloading, DHTML/JS, useless bells and whistells madness. Making your site basic and portable will eventually make it much more popular, even among MSIE users. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups... Wait a second - is n a natural number? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Your email is protected by Mailshell -- As you requested, this email was forwarded to you by Mailshell. Mailshell will forward your replies to this email and keep your private email address safe. To unsubscribe safely and easily using Mailshell or to stop forwarding: http://www.mailshell.com/control.html?a=blshp8bbumg87yq1j9157q v2pz6_58z35eg0 ReturnPath.net http://rd.mailshell.com/ad481 Earn up to $3 for each of your friends who signs up with Mailshell! http://rd.mailshell.com/sp5 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Tuesday, Dec 31, 2002, at 09:50 Asia/Jerusalem, Shlomi Fish wrote: Another point is that users would like more minimalistic and standards-compliant sites better than sites with a lot of bandwidth-overloading, DHTML/JS, useless bells and whistells madness. Making your site basic and portable will eventually make it much more popular, even among MSIE users. Well, standards-compliant != minimalist. You can have plenty of DHTML/JS bells and whistles while still being standards compliant. For example: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/ http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/index.html http://www.dhtmlcentral.com/script/?m=14 http://www.webstandards.org/learn/resources/dom/ And this the whole point: They do not need to make their site ugly or give up all the bells whistles in order to make their site work with all standard compliant browsers. IMO, having less bells and whistles is a different battle, and fighting it here might do more harm then good (as it might seem like a too radical change for site owners). -- The News, Uncensored http://www.tellinglies.org/news/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Shoshannah Forbes wrote: On Tuesday, Dec 31, 2002, at 09:50 Asia/Jerusalem, Shlomi Fish wrote: Another point is that users would like more minimalistic and standards-compliant sites better than sites with a lot of bandwidth-overloading, DHTML/JS, useless bells and whistells madness. Making your site basic and portable will eventually make it much more popular, even among MSIE users. Well, standards-compliant != minimalist. You can have plenty of DHTML/JS bells and whistles while still being standards compliant. For example: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/ http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/index.html http://www.dhtmlcentral.com/script/?m=14 http://www.webstandards.org/learn/resources/dom/ And this the whole point: They do not need tomake their site ugly or give up all the bells whistles in order to make their site work with all standard compliant browsers. IMO, having less bells and whistles is a different battle, and fighting it here might do more harm then good (as it might seem like a too radical change for site owners). OK. If making a site fully standard-compliant will make it look and function well on all browsers - I'm all for it. However, what I wanted to say is that if you create a simple-minded site in FrontPage, it has a greater chance of functioning well on all browsers than a site overloaded with JavaScript/DHTML/animation/flash/Java/etc. I like simple-minded sites, even those that are not fully standards compliant because they load quickly, and look well on all browsers. Sites with many bells and whistles which are standards compliant are OK I suppose, but users using POTS modems will not like them as well. But IE-specific sites that use a lot of bells and whistles, are horrifying. Designing a simplistic site is another way of making the site function well and behave well everywhere. It also greatly reduces the costs of designing it and maintaining it. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- The News, Uncensored http://www.tellinglies.org/news/ -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups... Wait a second - is n a natural number? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 09:16, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use IE so the extra expense is not warranted. I think the issue is much deeper -- it all comes down to awareness, or lack thereof to be more correct. I know a few people who do this kind of web development. They either have never heard of Linux, or they've heard that there's such a thing but don't know what it is, or they know what it is but simply don't make the logical connection that people who use Linux don't use IE 6. Or they know what it is and what it means, but they don't imagine that more than five people in the country use it. But even those people are already quite rare. It usually goes like this. The boss wants a web site, so he hires a web development company to create one. The developers in this company are obviously not people with a dozen years of computing experience, but people who have gone through a couple-months-long HTML course and have some artistic creativity in them. For them, the criterion for a working and well-looking piece of HTML is that it loads in their IE. If they're really really sophisticated, they may change their font size or resolution a couple of times to see that the site still looks good, but most don't (that's really pro stuff). They create the site and present it to the boss, who loads it in his computer, makes sure that it works, admires the bells and whistles which make the site look pretty and original, and writes the cheque. Linux?! I think asking most of those companies to support Linux is like calling your Co-Op, saying that you use a glider to move from place to place and complaining that they have no space to park it by their store. It's all awareness. Neither the web development company nor their client think that there are any normal people in their right mind who are not using IE. I think it never even gets to the point where they count percentages -- in most cases, I think the reaction is more like go away, freak, stop pestering me. -- Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hectic.net/ UIN 188956 PGP 0xEC5D619D / E1 F2 7B 6C A0 31 80 28 63 B8 02 BA 65 C7 8B BA = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:41:55 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. Very good, but now we should think of means to substantiate this claim. Otherwise it would be dismissed with the usual 95% is IE arguments. What I was thinking was how can we show they loose business in general (not just Linux) -- therefore I emphasized the public image. Another linked issue. How can we address complaints to *correct* authority in the organization (I think marketing dept. should be our focus). What we need is e-mail addresseses so we can (politely and rationaly) complain to, thus conveying the message: It's better be standard compliant then to deal with bad publicity from tech savy people about the quality of your web site. Of course every complaint should be accompanied with the known facts about lowering maintenance costs etc so they won't be pushed right away from the table due to no money excuses. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Tuesday 31 December 2002 14:34, Alex Shnitman wrote: On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 09:16, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use IE so the extra expense is not warranted. I think the issue is much deeper -- it all comes down to awareness, or lack thereof to be more correct. I know a few people who do this kind of web development. They either have never heard of Linux, or they've heard that there's such a thing but don't know what it is, or they know what it is but simply don't make the logical connection that people who use Linux don't use IE 6. Or they know what it is and what it means, but they don't imagine that more than five people in the country use it. But even those people are already quite rare. That's what the high-tech boom has left after it - jetsam, so to say. A lot of people ran to study computer-related and Internet-related things and to teach these things, not because they were talented in this area, but because of high salaries in this area. The first question asked by some college ( not even university ) computer course graduates coming to an interview, was How many stock options would I get? What car would I get?, and not What am I going to do in this position? What kind of experience may this position give me?. What we have now, is a drop of really talented people versus an ocean of point-and-clickers. It usually goes like this. The boss wants a web site, so he hires a web development company to create one. The developers in this company are obviously not people with a dozen years of computing experience, but people who have gone through a couple-months-long HTML course and have some artistic creativity in them. And who have learned only Microsoft tools ( except maybe Photoshop) during this course and are clear point-and-clickers. For them, the criterion for a working and well-looking piece of HTML is that it loads in their IE. If they're really really sophisticated, they may change their font size or resolution a couple of times to see that the site still looks good, but most don't (that's really pro stuff). It's a plague of Hebrew sites, especially those in Visual Hebrew. Enlarge the font a bit, and what should fit on one line and doesn't fit now, becomes clearly unreadable. With small font size, it is unreadable as well. You should guess where a phrase begins and where it ends. They create the site and present it to the boss, who loads it in his computer, makes sure that it works, Or they show to him that it works :-( and forget to show him some places that don't work. admires the bells and whistles which make the site look pretty and original, and writes the cheque. For his marketing book states be original and not be simple. It's a tech book that preaches the KISS. Linux?! I think asking most of those companies to support Linux is like calling your Co-Op, saying that you use a glider to move from place to place and complaining that they have no space to park it by their store. It's all awareness. Neither the web development company nor their client think that there are any normal people in their right mind who are not using IE. I think it never even gets to the point where they count percentages -- in most cases, I think the reaction is more like go away, freak, stop pestering me. It's right, sad as it may be. -- Regards, Alex Chudnovsky e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ : 35559910 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
I suggest doing an online poll of user browsing prefrences. Ask questions such as: 1. Rate each of the following factors from 1(not important) to 5(very important) for your browsing experience: FACTORS: Loading speed, navigation speed, lack of popup windows, does it work on my system, standard compliance, accessability to the handicapped, data security, esthetics, lots of animations, lack of animations, ... (suggest more) 2. Which browser do you most commonly use and on what OS? 3. Do you browse the web on your mobile phone or other text-only interfaces? 4. Do you ever browse with images turned off (for example- mobile phone)? 5. What is the lowest resolution you use to browse the web? The highest? What do you think? Any more suggestions? Alon On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:41:55 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. Very good, but now we should think of means to substantiate this claim. Otherwise it would be dismissed with the usual 95% is IE arguments. What I was thinking was how can we show they loose business in general (not just Linux) -- therefore I emphasized the public image. Another linked issue. How can we address complaints to *correct* authority in the organization (I think marketing dept. should be our focus). What we need is e-mail addresseses so we can (politely and rationaly) complain to, thus conveying the message: It's better be standard compliant then to deal with bad publicity from tech savy people about the quality of your web site. Of course every complaint should be accompanied with the known facts about lowering maintenance costs etc so they won't be pushed right away from the table due to no money excuses. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Q: Why did Menachem Begin invade Lebanon? A: To impress Jodie Foster. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
From: Oron Peled On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:41:55 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. Very good, but now we should think of means to substantiate this claim. Otherwise it would be dismissed with the usual 95% is IE No. That's my point - having pop-ups and large downloads on every page drives away also IE users because the site is not useable to them too. That's why they should stop believing that all these gizmo's help their business. arguments. What I was thinking was how can we show they loose business in general (not just Linux) -- therefore I emphasized the public image. See my reply above. Another linked issue. How can we address complaints to *correct* authority in the organization (I think marketing dept. should be our focus). What we need is e-mail addresseses so we can (politely and rationaly) complain to, thus conveying the message: It's better be standard compliant then to deal with bad publicity from tech savy people about the quality of your web site. Of course every complaint should be accompanied with the known facts about lowering maintenance costs etc so they won't be pushed right away from the table due to no money excuses. And in what position would you be talking to them? If I were them, I think I'd just suspect you are trying to sell me your services as a portable HTML hack. Cheers, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Quoting Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
It usually goes like this. The boss wants a web site, so he hires a web
development company to create one. The developers in this company are
obviously not people with a dozen years of computing experience, but
people who have gone through a couple-months-long HTML course and have
some artistic creativity in them.
There is a lot of truth in this. Web Designer and Web Master courses in
Israel are normally entirely Microsoft-oriented. My sister took one at John
Bryce. When she mentioned the word Netscape there people sneered. They learn
HTML, JScript (Ahem), VBScript, IIS, ASP, and so on.
This would explain the relatively low adoption of Linux/Apaache/{PHP,Perl} in
Israeli web sites. All those web designers require a working MS machine to even
get their bearings.
Maybe our take should be in the tech schools (John Bryce, Sela, Interbit,
High-Tech, whatever), pointing out Linux advantages, low license fees, and what
this means at a time when few companies can afford those $1000 to send over
employees. The result - more people who will be trained in using free software
go on the market.
Herouth
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Quoting Oron Peled, from the post of Tue, 31 Dec: (politely and rationaly) complain to, thus conveying the message: It's better be standard compliant then to deal with bad publicity from tech savy people about the quality of your web site. and the PHB hears please a small bunch of loud nudniks to save myself embarasment in a few web forums and newsletter? that's extortion! and decide to give in or not to the demands. for Visa Leumi it was easy. they told me the web interface will simply not be available to me and I should stick to other options (phone) or use the bank's interface to see future charges in thw queue. all this was fine until (now I read) leumi changed the interface as well. Explonter over CrossOver, anyone? :) -- Flight two-two is off to Honolulu Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. msg24355/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Here here to that!
Education can be found the source of many solutions. Maybe aproaching
such schools and offering them help with setting up Linux-based classes
will be beneficial to both parties - the schools get lower cost of ownership
(should probably be shown very good return on investment (ROI) in order to
interst them) and can brag about teaching people more useful stuff, and we
Linux crowd get:
1. More people who are aware of portability issues.
2. More potential Linux users.
3. More potential Linux advocates.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There is a lot of truth in this. Web Designer and Web
Master courses in
Israel are normally entirely Microsoft-oriented. My sister
took one at John
Bryce. When she mentioned the word Netscape there people
sneered. They learn
HTML, JScript (Ahem), VBScript, IIS, ASP, and so on.
This would explain the relatively low adoption of
Linux/Apaache/{PHP,Perl} in
Israeli web sites. All those web designers require a working
MS machine to even
get their bearings.
Maybe our take should be in the tech schools (John Bryce,
Sela, Interbit,
High-Tech, whatever), pointing out Linux advantages, low
license fees, and what
this means at a time when few companies can afford those
$1000 to send over
employees. The result - more people who will be trained in
using free software
go on the market.
Herouth
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
This remoinds me - I'm reading now The Complete DHTML refference (or something like that) from O'Reilly (don't sniger - this book is all about portability) and was wondering how feasable would it be to stick an IE compatibility module in Mozilla? Has anyone though of that? I don't know Mozilla's internal workings. -Original Message- From: Ira Abramov for Visa Leumi it was easy. they told me the web interface will simply not be available to me and I should stick to other options (phone) or use the bank's interface to see future charges in thw queue. all this was fine until (now I read) leumi changed the interface as well. Explonter over CrossOver, anyone? :) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On 31 Dec 2002 14:34:56 +0200 Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's all awareness. Neither the web development company nor their client think that there are any normal people in their right mind who are not using IE. I think it never even gets to the point where they count percentages -- in most cases, I think the reaction is more like go away, freak, stop pestering me. Completely true. That's why I think we should change strategy. The emphasis should be on: - The web team you hired doesn't follow web standards. - Many clients (e.g: people with other IE versions) may be affected. - You wouldn't know it (it looks ok on your computer). - It would reflect badly on your company public image. Note that I specifically didn't mention Mozilla/Linux etc. This should only be discussed with the web team themselves after the management *instructed* them to be compliant. One way to educate the bosses is to make them aware to w3c certification logos. Every complaint should be accompanied with a high profile site that have this logo (as an example and motivation). This is a visual cue that non-techie boss may easily understand and remember (they just LOVE certifications :-) Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron MCSE: Must Consult Someone Experienced = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This remoinds me - I'm reading now The Complete DHTML refference (or something like that) from O'Reilly (don't sniger - this book is all about portability) and was wondering how feasable would it be to stick an IE compatibility module in Mozilla?Has anyone though of that?I don't know Mozilla's internal workings. First-off you'll have to fork a new project, because mozilla's developes stick to standard conforming. Basically you'll have to modify mozilla's rendering engine. It's not sticking a module. It means making many changes. Getting feature-by-feature compatibility is tough. Bug-by-bug compatibility is even tougher. And then the next version of explorer will arrive, and introduce new sets of features and quircks. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Oron Peled wrote: Completely true. That's why I think we should change strategy. The emphasis should be on: - The web team you hired doesn't follow web standards. - Many clients (e.g: people with other IE versions) may be affected. - You wouldn't know it (it looks ok on your computer). - It would reflect badly on your company public image. You might also want to be armed with tools to show how does their site look like in different browsers and show them an easy way to check it. I recall that I saw a service that showed how you site looks like in various versions of all kinds of browsers but I can't find it now. What I found that could be useful here are: List of tools to check your web site: http://www.craigcecil.com/checkyoursite.htm including the Lynx viewer: http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html W3C Markup validator: http://validator.w3.org/ Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Quoting Shoshannah Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just wondering- where did you get your figures from? The numbers I have seen claim that making a site that adheres to standards is actually cheaper then creating a site geared to one browser. Provided, of corse, that you don't really on some horribly broken code (which I have seen in too many large Israeli sites). Well, working as a web programmer for a long time now, you can't imagine how childish bosses are. They simply want that cool feature that scrolls unimportant information on the side. They love huge images that cause sites to load slooow on the (still more common) 56K modems. They want those Javascript thingies that disable right-click on copyrighted images. Go tell them that any self-respecting thief knows how to steal the image without a right click, and that there is no way in the world to make it completely browser-compatible. They enjoy popping up windows that have some informative data (try to tell them that people *hate* pop-ups, and that many have them disabled in their browser, so they won't get the important information). DHTML menues are very high on their list of features, despite the fact that there are always browsers they'll break. In short, do you believe people are rational? Read what the Israeli professor got that Nobel Prize in economics for. Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:43:40 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, working as a web programmer for a long time now, you can't imagine how childish bosses are. Good point. So it's the same struggle we see everywhere in the software field about PHB's and Marketoids forcing non-professional decisions on their techies. So we should really fight this battle not only on a practical basis (these sites are problematic for us), but also on ideological basis (this web software sucks and contains proprietary code -- we think it's bad for everybody). Of course the many practical arguments raised so far will help demonstrate the problem. So let's try to compose a partial list: 1. Maintenance hell for upgrades 2. Should retest for many versions of proprietary products (e.g: Flash versions) 3. Non-professional image in the eyes of tech-people (no standards compliance, no thorough testing) may inflict on the name of the company. 4. Small but important market (non-Windows, many tech-people) may be lost. Since PHB's couldn't care less for [1,2,4] I think maybe item 3 should be stressed. Maybe instead of calling a company webmaster about your page doesn't work with Linux/Mozilla/Whatever we should call the marketing department with Whoever designed your web pages haven't done a professional job. It may deteriorates your public image without you knowing about it... We will be happy to give technical details to your relevant representatives. What do you think? Is this approach too aggressive? (reaching the web design team from above). Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron He who sacrifices functionality for ease of use Loses both and deserves neither = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 21:24 Asia/Jerusalem, Oron Peled wrote: Of course the many practical arguments raised so far will help demonstrate the problem. So let's try to compose a partial list: 1. Maintenance hell for upgrades 2. Should retest for many versions of proprietary products (e.g: Flash versions) 3. Non-professional image in the eyes of tech-people (no standards compliance, no thorough testing) may inflict on the name of the company. 4. Small but important market (non-Windows, many tech-people) may be lost. Since PHB's couldn't care less for [1,2,4] I think maybe item 3 should be stressed. Maybe instead of calling a company webmaster about your page doesn't work with Linux/Mozilla/Whatever we should call the marketing department with Whoever designed your web pages haven't done a professional job. It may deteriorates your public image without you knowing about it... We will be happy to give technical details to your relevant representatives. What do you think? Is this approach too aggressive? (reaching the web design team from above). It might work. It seems that the people at the Mac forum are organizing for a similar approach against ynet: http://forums.ort.org.il/scripts/showsm.asp?which_forum=307mess=1645039 -- The News, Uncensored http://www.tellinglies.org/news/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. -Original Message- From: Oron Peled [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 9:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:43:40 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, working as a web programmer for a long time now, you can't imagine how childish bosses are. Good point. So it's the same struggle we see everywhere in the software field about PHB's and Marketoids forcing non-professional decisions on their techies. So we should really fight this battle not only on a practical basis (these sites are problematic for us), but also on ideological basis (this web software sucks and contains proprietary code -- we think it's bad for everybody). Of course the many practical arguments raised so far will help demonstrate the problem. So let's try to compose a partial list: 1. Maintenance hell for upgrades 2. Should retest for many versions of proprietary products (e.g: Flash versions) 3. Non-professional image in the eyes of tech-people (no standards compliance, no thorough testing) may inflict on the name of the company. 4. Small but important market (non-Windows, many tech-people) may be lost. Since PHB's couldn't care less for [1,2,4] I think maybe item 3 should be stressed. Maybe instead of calling a company webmaster about your page doesn't work with Linux/Mozilla/Whatever we should call the marketing department with Whoever designed your web pages haven't done a professional job. It may deteriorates your public image without you knowing about it... We will be happy to give technical details to your relevant representatives. What do you think? Is this approach too aggressive? (reaching the web design team from above). Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron He who sacrifices functionality for ease of use Loses both and deserves neither = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Your email is protected by Mailshell -- As you requested, this email was forwarded to you by Mailshell. Mailshell will forward your replies to this email and keep your private email address safe. To unsubscribe safely and easily using Mailshell or to stop forwarding: http://www.mailshell.com/control.html?a=blshp8bbumg87yq1j9157q v2pz6_58z35eg0 FreshAddress.com http://rd.mailshell.com/ad482 Earn up to $3 for each of your friends who signs up with Mailshell! http://rd.mailshell.com/sp5 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you missed the main point: 5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and misses the whole point of having a web site. This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use IE so the extra expense is not warranted. The real point is 5. Bottom line: it costs much more to create and *maintain* a site with advanced IE features. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
BA Discriminators are users. Customer (Leumi in this case) looking BA at Browser Statistics won't pay money on customization for BA Netscape+Mozilla. If you and all your friends will browse about I'm already paying money as BLL client. Part of these money is website budget. Just website users for some reason still do not account as customers that require service... Sad. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-50-624945/\ JRRT LotR. whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Title: RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client So, with all the stories about sites discriminating against non-IE clients, Discriminators are users. Customer (Leumi in this case) looking at Browser Statistics won't pay money on customization for Netscape+Mozilla. If you and all your friends will browse about with NS or Mozilla, customers will pay for supporting NS and you will enjoy. NSs and Mozilla takes 3%, IEs - 96%. If man*month of Web developer costs to Leumi 15000$, development of IE-ed site takes 10 man*month and IE-ed and NS-ed 15 man*month, who need to pay 5000*5=25000$ for 2% of NS users?
Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Boulgakov Andrei wrote: NSs and Mozilla takes 3%, IEs - 96%. If man*month of Web developer costs to Leumi 15000$, development of IE-ed site takes 10 man*month $15000 for a man month of a web developer looks a little exaggerated. and IE-ed and NS-ed 15 man*month, who need to pay 5000*5=25000$ for 2% of NS users? $5000 makes more sense. So what we have learned? 1. NSI charges $5K per man month of a web developer. 2. Leumi paid NSI $50K for their new site (not too much... 2-3 years ago, it could cost twice...) 3. Supporting Netscape expenses the total cost by more 50%. I must admit that sometimes, reading linux-il is more useful than Globes and/or TheMarker. Andrei, sorry for discriminating you... You really looks nice and kind man! You are welcome to share numbers with us more often. ;-) -- Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO, Founder Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-23-7338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
Title: RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client ;-) AFAIK, you're right only in #3 MM in fixed price project can cost to customer more than 15000 :) -Original Message- From: Eli Marmor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client Boulgakov Andrei wrote: NSs and Mozilla takes 3%, IEs - 96%. If man*month of Web developer costs to Leumi 15000$, development of IE-ed site takes 10 man*month $15000 for a man month of a web developer looks a little exaggerated. and IE-ed and NS-ed 15 man*month, who need to pay 5000*5=25000$ for 2% of NS users? $5000 makes more sense. So what we have learned? 1. NSI charges $5K per man month of a web developer. 2. Leumi paid NSI $50K for their new site (not too much... 2-3 years ago, it could cost twice...) 3. Supporting Netscape expenses the total cost by more 50%. I must admit that sometimes, reading linux-il is more useful than Globes and/or TheMarker. Andrei, sorry for discriminating you... You really looks nice and kind man! You are welcome to share numbers with us more often. ;-) -- Eli Marmor [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO, Founder Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-23-7338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
