Re: SuSE - The Next "Default Linux"?
On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 11:27:06PM +0200, Oron Peled wrote: > On Saturday 06 December 2003 21:55, Eli Marmor wrote: > > ... and all of the 3 big names (IBM/SUN/Novell) backing SuSE - is SusE > > the "new RH"? Is it going to be the new "default Linux" instead of RH > > No: Suse isn't Free-Software (per-seat licenses since ever), so you cannot > hand over a CD to somebody (e.g: at an install party). > This cannot be "default". Another thing is that they allow themselve lower packaging standards than RedHat (whiich generally allows itself lower packaging standards than Debian). This is because there are practically no third-party packages. There is no large developer base to require them to keep decent interfaces of their distro. Is this going to happen to RedHat? We have already seen the claims by WhiteBox linux that RHEL published source RPMS are not the ones actually being used to build the distribution. -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SuSE - The Next "Default Linux"?
On Saturday 06 December 2003 21:55, Eli Marmor wrote: > ... and all of the 3 big names (IBM/SUN/Novell) backing SuSE - is SusE > the "new RH"? Is it going to be the new "default Linux" instead of RH No: Suse isn't Free-Software (per-seat licenses since ever), so you cannot hand over a CD to somebody (e.g: at an install party). This cannot be "default". One of the big errors you see analysts are doing in the last years is trying to apply normal "market-power" metrics to the Free software phenomena. (you can re-read the funny predictions made by Gartner over the last few years). There are various contenders for the next "Default Linux", (Debian, UserLinux, Fedora...) but we don't have a "winner" at the moment. This may turn out to be a good thing, because it would force everybody to go back to cooperation through standards (e.g: freedesktop.org, LSB, etc.) instead of relying on "RedHat compliant" philosophy. "Me-too" RedHat user, still evaluating my choices... -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron Free software: each person contributes a brick, but ultimately each person receives a house in return. -- Brendan Scott = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SuSE - The Next "Default Linux"?
I agree Fedora is a class project. The desktop isn't ready for linux, but linux users/developers want a better desktop for themselves, there is much more energy in Fedora than I have seen elsewhere in Linux for sometime. Aaron = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SuSE - The Next "Default Linux"?
Eli Marmor wrote: Hi, I want to raise an issue for discussion; It is not related specifically to Hebrew, nor to Israel, nor to me, but I haven't seen any similar discussion on the net, so I raise it here: Until recently, there was not a real competition in the field of Linux distributions; RedHat was the default, and all the rest (hundreds (!) of them, according to LWN) served specific niches. This has been the status for at least 5-6 years. (Mandrake was popular too, but earned its popularity thanks for starting as "RH++", till it was popular enough to start its own way) I would also add that it was perceived to be the "cutting edge" whereas RH was more mature and stable. However, recently, in a very short time (2-3 months), a series of dramatic events happened, that might changed everything we have ever known about this field: 1. RH stopped shipping packages (though Fedora is partially an option). Not quite. They made two moves: 1. Subscription based 2. Focus on the corporate computer center. 2. Novell acquired SuSE. 3. IBM left its 100% neutral status, and now is backing SuSE directly, developing shared projects with it, and even helped Novell to acquire SuSE (see #2 above) by investing $50M in Novell shares. 4. Sun released its own Linux distribution, JDS (p.k.a "MadHatter"), and guess what - it is based on SuSE too. So with no RH package anymore, Mandrake based on charity, Debian serves mostly freaks and embedded needs, and all of the 3 big names (IBM/SUN/ Novell) backing SuSE - is SuSE the "new RH"? Is it going to be the new "default Linux" instead of RH? DISCLAIMER: I am a rabid Debian user. I disagree. Debian has no sales and a very large number of mirrors, so it's harder to evaluate the number of installations. The shared power of IBM/Sun/Novell should not be underestimated; It's a dramatic development that all of the three biggest names (in size of company) stand behind one distribution. In the past it has never happened; the most that such companies agreed to say, was that they preferred GNOME over KDE or vice-versa. Now, all of them stand behind the same distribution, which has not been the leader one, ever. Moreover, the center of power of SuSE has been in Europe in general, and Germany in particular, but all of these 3 companies are based in the US. Is it the start of a new era in the Linux business? Please don't try to guess my own opinion from this message (I still don't have), or flame me for raising the question; I'm just a wondering man, who has difficulties in trying to guess the future of Linux and choose his next distribution according to it. As I see it, there are now three main streams of Linux distributions 1. Fully commercial - Pay for use RedHat aiming for the corporate data centers Lindows, Xandros and others aiming for the Home/SOHO desktop SuSE/Novell aiming for World domination 2. Semi commercial - Free download, goodies (support, commercial software, etc) with payed version Mandrake aiming for the SOHO and SMB markets Libranet and similar aiming for the Home/SOHO market 3. Free (as in beer) Debian and Gentoo leading the pack. No specific aim, use it for whatever catches your fancy. There are lots of derivatives in each of the three streams, but this is the main directions. I, for one, do not plan to change distribution. As far as I can see, nothing has changed for me as a Debian user. We might have gotten used to having RH for free, and have allowed vendors to get away with statements such as "RedHat x.x compatible", and having the software distributed in RH specific RPMs. Gil -- = Gil Freund Sysnet consulting - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sysnet.co.il voice: +972-52-676906 Fax: +972-8-9356026 = = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SuSE - The Next "Default Linux"?
It seems that you SuSE as a minor distribution or that they come out of the blue. That's not the reality. SuSE was just one step ahead of RH in the commercial world. They were not so nice to the unpaying consumer. But they didn't stand still - notice that they have a big support from SAP. That's alone can build them well. They also have Oracle's support (through United Linux). My guess is that SuSE was just chapter to buy than RH, so Novell gave it a green light (with the help of IBM). Form commercial purposes It seems that RH and SuSE are they same: 1. Support 2. Free software with propriety software. 3. Support from the big players. For private purposes I think Mandrake will have a great time. Fedora is too young to judge. But still - I see Debian growth (maybe with HP support) and when Sarge will be out. The geographical aspect of the issue is very interesting... But I'm not sure it has too much with the decisions. Two aspects which may still be important: 1. How does the EU will threat software patents. 2. How does the EU will threat Microsoft monopoly. 3. US restriction laws of encryption export. Lior Kaplan > Hi, > > I want to raise an issue for discussion; It is not related specifically > to Hebrew, nor to Israel, nor to me, but I haven't seen any similar > discussion on the net, so I raise it here: > > Until recently, there was not a real competition in the field of Linux > distributions; RedHat was the default, and all the rest (hundreds (!) > of them, according to LWN) served specific niches. > > This has been the status for at least 5-6 years. > > (Mandrake was popular too, but earned its popularity thanks for starting > as "RH++", till it was popular enough to start its own way) > > However, recently, in a very short time (2-3 months), a series of > dramatic events happened, that might changed everything we have ever > known about this field: > > 1. RH stopped shipping packages (though Fedora is partially an option). > 2. Novell acquired SuSE. > 3. IBM left its 100% neutral status, and now is backing SuSE directly, >developing shared projects with it, and even helped Novell to >acquire SuSE (see #2 above) by investing $50M in Novell shares. > 4. Sun released its own Linux distribution, JDS (p.k.a "MadHatter"), >and guess what - it is based on SuSE too. > > So with no RH package anymore, Mandrake based on charity, Debian serves > mostly freaks and embedded needs, and all of the 3 big names (IBM/SUN/ > Novell) backing SuSE - is SuSE the "new RH"? Is it going to be the new > "default Linux" instead of RH? > > The shared power of IBM/Sun/Novell should not be underestimated; It's a > dramatic development that all of the three biggest names (in size of > company) stand behind one distribution. In the past it has never > happened; the most that such companies agreed to say, was that they > preferred GNOME over KDE or vice-versa. Now, all of them stand behind > the same distribution, which has not been the leader one, ever. > > Moreover, the center of power of SuSE has been in Europe in general, > and Germany in particular, but all of these 3 companies are based in > the US. > > Is it the start of a new era in the Linux business? > > Please don't try to guess my own opinion from this message (I still > don't have), or flame me for raising the question; I'm just a wondering > man, who has difficulties in trying to guess the future of Linux and > choose his next distribution according to it. > > -- > Eli Marmor > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > CTO, Founder > Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. > __ > Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. > Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 > Mobile: +972-50-23-7338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SuSE - The Next "Default Linux"?
Well infact, until I tried Fedora I didn't understand what was going on. I think the issue is more complex that that. The server IT market looks like constantly shifting sand. I hope that Novell and IBM can improve SuSE I tried it a number of times, and found it to confining for me. The gui or else caught me to many times.. There are a lot of small players out there with a lot of good ideas Yoper, Xandros, etc. Diversity has been the curse of Linux, to many distros and lots of confusion, but at the same time variety is the spice of life. I see Linux distros popping up all over the place. I am using Fedora now and although not 100 percent pleased, I find it has taken over from RH 9.0 quite well and by using apt/yum it is quite a powerful option. Debian is still to much for hackers but that is slowly changing. So if you are used to RH I would say try Fedora, you will be comfortable and it is certainly more bleeding edge than RH was. Aaron = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SuSE - The Next "Default Linux"?
Hi, Nice discussion. But you are underestimating Fedora IMHO. I can't see why you drop it so hard. Those three monsters are interested in business, and there is still RHEL. On desktop? Sure, they don't spend dollars for Linux on desktop. The only option is still Fedora. And I was at a Novell miniconference, and they were saying twice a minute that they support RHEL either, and would continue to do that. BTW, Fedora is the answer for personal use. Many GNOME developers, kernel developers, and other distinguished people work for Red Hat. Actually it's not amazing that Debian people have enought time to package every shit on earth, as they have nothing more to do, just packaging. But Red Hat developers are those that are advancing the borders of FOSS on desktop. $0.02 behdad On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Eli Marmor wrote: > Hi, > > I want to raise an issue for discussion; It is not related specifically > to Hebrew, nor to Israel, nor to me, but I haven't seen any similar > discussion on the net, so I raise it here: > > Until recently, there was not a real competition in the field of Linux > distributions; RedHat was the default, and all the rest (hundreds (!) > of them, according to LWN) served specific niches. > > This has been the status for at least 5-6 years. > > (Mandrake was popular too, but earned its popularity thanks for starting > as "RH++", till it was popular enough to start its own way) > > However, recently, in a very short time (2-3 months), a series of > dramatic events happened, that might changed everything we have ever > known about this field: > > 1. RH stopped shipping packages (though Fedora is partially an option). > 2. Novell acquired SuSE. > 3. IBM left its 100% neutral status, and now is backing SuSE directly, >developing shared projects with it, and even helped Novell to >acquire SuSE (see #2 above) by investing $50M in Novell shares. > 4. Sun released its own Linux distribution, JDS (p.k.a "MadHatter"), >and guess what - it is based on SuSE too. > > So with no RH package anymore, Mandrake based on charity, Debian serves > mostly freaks and embedded needs, and all of the 3 big names (IBM/SUN/ > Novell) backing SuSE - is SuSE the "new RH"? Is it going to be the new > "default Linux" instead of RH? > > The shared power of IBM/Sun/Novell should not be underestimated; It's a > dramatic development that all of the three biggest names (in size of > company) stand behind one distribution. In the past it has never > happened; the most that such companies agreed to say, was that they > preferred GNOME over KDE or vice-versa. Now, all of them stand behind > the same distribution, which has not been the leader one, ever. > > Moreover, the center of power of SuSE has been in Europe in general, > and Germany in particular, but all of these 3 companies are based in > the US. > > Is it the start of a new era in the Linux business? > > Please don't try to guess my own opinion from this message (I still > don't have), or flame me for raising the question; I'm just a wondering > man, who has difficulties in trying to guess the future of Linux and > choose his next distribution according to it. > > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
