Re: CNN poll
On September 20, 2001 07:10 pm, Dave Kuhlman wrote: That is why some of us suggest that we not call it a war. snip This is and should be a police action. Perhaps it is a very large police action. But, wars are between nations. Wars are fought over territory. There is no other nation here, unless you want to bomb a few helpless Afganies (sp?), and make them even more miserable than they already are. And there is no territory. God help us if we want Afganistan. Wars have most often been fought between nations because that is the scale of the resources usually needed to participate. Websters offers two definitions: the first describes it as a conflict between nations, or parties within a nation; the second defines it as any conflict, struggle, or strife such as the 'war on poverty.' Our political leaders are calling it a war for the same reason you are calling it a war. They believe that they can stir up more emotions and support by doing so. Support, yes. It would be hard to suggest that emotions haven't already been stirred up by the terrorist acts themselves. In fact, it is a strong arguement that as the senior elected representative of the American public, GWB is just reflecting the outrage and demand for justice that the American citizens feel and expect their President to act upon accordingly. If I was George W or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or the head of the FBI, I would, too. Trying to promote a war would certainly be more pleasant than admitting that I had failed miserably to protect the security of our nation at the cost of thousands of lives and billions of dollars. That's an unfair statement. Nothing is 100 percent, that includes even the best intelligence support, especially in a free and democratic western society. It's one of life's little dichotomies... if you impose the absolute measures to provide as perfect an intelligence and security system as possible in order to protect your democratic state, then by definition, you have just destroyed or at least violated the principles you are, in fact, trying to protect. However, all of this have to be balanced against society's perceived need to mitigate risk. That perception of risk has just undergone a very large adjustment over the last 2 weeks. Over recent years the intelligence community in the US and elsewhere (except perhaps Israel) has been forced to deal with increased fiscal, legal and ideological restrictions, due in no small measure to the perception by the lay public and politicians that 'the Cold War is over, we won, we can reduce our effort.' That notwithstanding, there are some intelligence problems that do not lend themselves to easy armchair solutions. Terrorism, be definition, is a very difficult activity to target. Indicators are usually small, indistinct, and difficult to discern against a constant threshold of background noise. Most of all, this type of activity is difficult to predict, although it's amazing the number of armchair experts who come out of the woodwork, after the fact, to proclaim their expertise in hindsight. Intelligence, especially at the strategic or national level, most often relies upon trend analysis to develop profiles of targets, including indicators of how they operate and what they need to do in order to conduct a specified activity. These indicators are the alarm bells that point to an impending event. The more indicators you have, the more confidence and accuracy you can provide in a warning. For this reason, these indicators are targetted by the intelligence community's collection and reporting efforts, as much as the groups themselves. However, this attack was unprecedented in both method and scale. How do you predict something that has never occured before? Moreover, the 'signature' or 'footprint' of these groups is much more subtle than that of a large conventional military force - they are much smaller, more mobile, more able to blend into the background, less structured and thus less predictable. From what I have seen reported in the media, these groups usually don't use devices or operate in a way that is unique or are easily detected against the normal background threshold of civilian activity... and they do that on purpose. This isn't a problem that can be solved by throwing up a couple of satellites, while the public goes back to shopping at Walmart. It is a difficult challenge that will require extraordinary measures on a prolonged basis... that is why it is a 'war' and that is why it is both unfair and uninformed to imply that this event was caused by a simple case of negligence or oversight. Sorry for the length of this post. I didn't want to break the thread, but if this is going to continue, perhaps we should do so in General? -- burns ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc
Re: CNN poll
On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:25:01 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Thursday 20 September 2001 08:35, DOUGLAS HUNLEY wrote: | | CNN (http://www.cnn.com) is currently running a poll on their front | | page concerning whether you'd be willing to let the government | | control more of your life in exchange for a sense of security... | | Everyone please go register your opinion so the lawmakers can know | | your true feelings about having your privacy and crypto and civil | | liberties taken away | | despite what they think, cnn is not the government. But, hey, even Tom Clancey writes that the CIA/FBI and government get lots of info from CNN that they did not pick up themselves. Let those crazy cameramen go to the scene and risk whatever. Of course, all his work is fiction. -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 01:24:17PM -0500, Jim Conner wrote: Please note that the following is my opinion. I've heard plenty of people complain about the loss of certain 'liberties and freedoms' recently. Whether this is concerning the tightened security at airports, AOL and Earthlink cooperating with the federal investigation, or other related matters. Ladies and gentlemen, we are at war(whether you like it or not). The enemy still has troops at large on American soil. Where they could strike next is anybody's guess. This war is like no other war that Americans have ever fought. That is why some of us suggest that we not call it a war. If I say, Here is a horse. This horse is like no other horse you have ever seen. You might ask, If it is not like a horse, why call it a horse? This is and should be a police action. Perhaps it is a very large police action. But, wars are between nations. Wars are fought over territory. There is no other nation here, unless you want to bomb a few helpless Afganies (sp?), and make them even more miserable than they already are. And there is no territory. God help us if we want Afganistan. Our political leaders are calling it a war for the same reason you are calling it a war. They believe that they can stir up more emotions and support by doing so. If I was George W or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or the head of the FBI, I would, too. Trying to promote a war would certainly be more pleasant than admitting that I had failed miserably to protect the security of our nation at the cost of thousands of lives and billions of dollars. We are used to wars being on other people's soil and the loss of lives being from our military. Americans have been spoiled lately by the unprecedented liberties and freedoms that we have enjoyed in recent years. This will be a time for us as Americans to sacrifice some of these freedoms and liberties in the name of security. Freedom doesn't come without a price. America is a unique country in that these freedoms and liberties can and will be reinstated once the enemy is defeated. The War on Drugs is also like no other war we have ever known. They have taken away some of my freedoms to fight that war. I don't notice that they have given those freedoms back. Could you tell me when I might expect the return of those freedoms? Perhaps when people stop taking drugs? There will not be an end to end to people's desire to take drugs. And, there will not be an end to terrorism. So I think you should be a bit more honest here and admit that you are proposing the loss of these freedoms for an indefinitely long period of time. I took an oath to 'protect and defend the US' and served in the US Air Force for four years. I gave up some of my liberties and freedoms so that my fellow Americans can enjoy being secure. Once again, I'm called upon as an American citizen to make some sacrifices to ensure the security of my fellow Americans. I'll gladly make these sacrifices to make sure that you are secure in your work place, your home, on your streets, in your skies, and in your favorite restaurant. This will not be a permanant loss of freedoms and liberties, but only until the enemy is defeated and we as American citizens can feel secure once again. The alternative is almost frightening. I don't want America to become a battleground where the enemy can strike at anytime, anywhere and without warning. For the freedoms that we will enjoy in the future, I'm willing to pay the price needed and make those sacrifices now. We certainly need to change the way we do airport security. We certainly need to pursue and punish those who did this horrible act. And, we should be trying to organize and encourage the co-operation of other nations in preventing terrorism. We do not need to attack a foreign sovereign nation. (That's what a war is.) And we do not need to bomb Afganistan back to the stone-age. (They are already there in too many respects.) This _will_ require sacrifices. But, let's use more intelligence and less emotion in deciding what to sacrifice and what to do, so that we do some good and so that we are effective. I say, let's put some muscle and brains where they will do some good. - Dave Jim On Thursday September 20, 2001 7:35 am, DOUGLAS HUNLEY wrote: CNN (http://www.cnn.com) is currently running a poll on their front page concerning whether you'd be willing to let the government control more of your life in exchange for a sense of security... Everyone please go register your opinion so the lawmakers can know your true feelings about having your privacy and crypto and civil liberties taken away -- Douglas J. Hunley Unix/Linux Admin http://linux.nf -- 12:42pm up 20 days, 19:42, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.13, 0.10 Running
Re: CNN poll
On Thursday 20 September 2001 07:35, DOUGLAS HUNLEY wrote: CNN (http://www.cnn.com) is currently running a poll on their front page concerning whether you'd be willing to let the government control more of your life in exchange for a sense of security... Everyone please go register your opinion so the lawmakers can know your true feelings about having your privacy and crypto and civil liberties taken away The results so far are a bit disturbing, but then those votes are probably from the mindless ones that think that the Windows OS/Application is secure and 'everyone' should be using it. -- The Universal Joint - Connecting Unix, Linux, and that other OS Operated by Linux user #201684 8:20am up 12 days, 17:31, 3 users, load average: 0.13, 0.15, 0.06 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
I see no such poll. The only poll that i see asks how long the US should wait before retaliating. *shrug* --- DOUGLAS HUNLEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CNN (http://www.cnn.com) is currently running a poll on their front page concerning whether you'd be willing to let the government control more of your life in exchange for a sense of security... Everyone please go register your opinion so the lawmakers can know your true feelings about having your privacy and crypto and civil liberties taken away = Lonni J. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux FAQ Step-by-step help: http://netllama.ipfox.com . __ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
On Thursday 20 September 2001 08:35, DOUGLAS HUNLEY wrote: | CNN (http://www.cnn.com) is currently running a poll on their front | page concerning whether you'd be willing to let the government | control more of your life in exchange for a sense of security... | Everyone please go register your opinion so the lawmakers can know | your true feelings about having your privacy and crypto and civil | liberties taken away despite what they think, cnn is not the government. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:24:31 -0500, John Hiemenz wrote: The results so far are a bit disturbing, but then those votes are probably from the mindless ones that think that the Windows OS/Application is secure and 'everyone' should be using it. It doesn't appear to be on the site anymore. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
On Thursday 20 September 2001 10:46, Net Llama babbled: I see no such poll. The only poll that i see asks how long the US should wait before retaliating. *shrug* damn.. they changed it. I just checked and the poll you describe is up... that's weird... it was there... I *swear* -- Douglas J. Hunley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Linux User #174778 Admin: http://hunley.homeip.net/Admin: http://linux.nf/ Brainbench Linux Administration Certified ~~ Now offering Linux admin services for the SOHO/home user ~~ Fiber diggers do it deeper ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
Please note that the following is my opinion. I've heard plenty of people complain about the loss of certain 'liberties and freedoms' recently. Whether this is concerning the tightened security at airports, AOL and Earthlink cooperating with the federal investigation, or other related matters. Ladies and gentlemen, we are at war(whether you like it or not). The enemy still has troops at large on American soil. Where they could strike next is anybody's guess. This war is like no other war that Americans have ever fought. We are used to wars being on other people's soil and the loss of lives being from our military. Americans have been spoiled lately by the unprecedented liberties and freedoms that we have enjoyed in recent years. This will be a time for us as Americans to sacrifice some of these freedoms and liberties in the name of security. Freedom doesn't come without a price. America is a unique country in that these freedoms and liberties can and will be reinstated once the enemy is defeated. I took an oath to 'protect and defend the US' and served in the US Air Force for four years. I gave up some of my liberties and freedoms so that my fellow Americans can enjoy being secure. Once again, I'm called upon as an American citizen to make some sacrifices to ensure the security of my fellow Americans. I'll gladly make these sacrifices to make sure that you are secure in your work place, your home, on your streets, in your skies, and in your favorite restaurant. This will not be a permanant loss of freedoms and liberties, but only until the enemy is defeated and we as American citizens can feel secure once again. The alternative is almost frightening. I don't want America to become a battleground where the enemy can strike at anytime, anywhere and without warning. For the freedoms that we will enjoy in the future, I'm willing to pay the price needed and make those sacrifices now. Jim On Thursday September 20, 2001 7:35 am, DOUGLAS HUNLEY wrote: CNN (http://www.cnn.com) is currently running a poll on their front page concerning whether you'd be willing to let the government control more of your life in exchange for a sense of security... Everyone please go register your opinion so the lawmakers can know your true feelings about having your privacy and crypto and civil liberties taken away -- Douglas J. Hunley Unix/Linux Admin http://linux.nf -- 12:42pm up 20 days, 19:42, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.13, 0.10 Running Caldera eD2.4 - Linux - because life is too short for reboots... _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
That is the smart and prudent thing to do. Nothing would start a divide quicker than a heated national debate on our freedoms/privacy and how far the restrictions should go. It is not a subject that would be rationally debated by either side nor would it do any real good except to tell the world we have already forsaken national solidarity and are back to our usual internal bickerings. On Thursday 20 September 2001 12:39, Douglas J. Hunley wrote: On Thursday 20 September 2001 10:46, Net Llama babbled: I see no such poll. The only poll that i see asks how long the US should wait before retaliating. *shrug* damn.. they changed it. I just checked and the poll you describe is up... that's weird... it was there... I *swear* -- Ronnie == Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare it's all in your mind ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
On Thursday 20 September 2001 13:39 pm, Douglas J. Hunley wrote: On Thursday 20 September 2001 10:46, Net Llama babbled: I see no such poll. The only poll that i see asks how long the US should wait before retaliating. *shrug* damn.. they changed it. I just checked and the poll you describe is up... that's weird... it was there... I *swear* It was there and I think it was this morning when I visited there. -- ++ + Bruce S. Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bellaire, MI 09/20/01 15:04 + ++ Wolter's Law: If you have the time, you won't have the money. If you have the money, you won't have the time. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: CNN poll
On Thursday 20 September 2001 01:24 pm, you wrote: Please note that the following is my opinion. I've heard plenty of people complain about the loss of certain 'liberties and freedoms' recently. Whether this is concerning the tightened security at airports, AOL and Earthlink cooperating with the federal investigation, or other related matters. Ladies and gentlemen, we are at war(whether you like it or not). The enemy still has troops at large on American soil. Where they could strike next is anybody's guess. This war is like no other war that Americans have ever fought. We are used to wars being on other people's soil and the loss of lives being from our military. Americans have been spoiled lately by the unprecedented liberties and freedoms that we have enjoyed in recent years. This will be a time for us as Americans to sacrifice some of these freedoms and liberties in the name of security. Freedom doesn't come without a price. America is a unique country in that these freedoms and liberties can and will be reinstated once the enemy is defeated. I took an oath to 'protect and defend the US' and served in the US Air Force for four years. I gave up some of my liberties and freedoms so that my fellow Americans can enjoy being secure. Once again, I'm called upon as an American citizen to make some sacrifices to ensure the security of my fellow Americans. I'll gladly make these sacrifices to make sure that you are secure in your work place, your home, on your streets, in your skies, and in your favorite restaurant. This will not be a permanant loss of freedoms and liberties, but only until the enemy is defeated and we as American citizens can feel secure once again. The alternative is almost frightening. I don't want America to become a battleground where the enemy can strike at anytime, anywhere and without warning. For the freedoms that we will enjoy in the future, I'm willing to pay the price needed and make those sacrifices now. Jim Jim you are absolutely correct here. Folks, this is not a new strange war, it is the same one we fought in RVN. The only difference is that it is here and the terrorist have tried to ti invade us. Well news flash OH NO you don't. To many of us RVN vets around and we now how to take them out. If you have not been in the military, you may not understand us. That is OK, just do what we tell you and maybe you will get through it. cheers Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
