[REBOL] Question: Move the REBOL List? Re:(2)
I would prefer a main-rebol newsgroup. (comp.lang.rebol) So we would have archive and web-functionality through dejanews. Furthermore newsgroups are IMHO better to handle with this daily amount of posts. Regards, Jochen Schmidt On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, you wrote: > Great idea, Carl > > You guys at RT should not waste your precious time bothering with a list > when we have eGroups.com. > Let's move. I'm pretty sure everyone in here will like it! > > Carlos Lorenz > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:23 PM > Subject: [REBOL] Question: Move the REBOL List? > > > Dear REBOL list readers: > > > > It's great to have so much activity happening with REBOL these days. > > Unfortunately, our servers are overloading. We're starting to have > gigabyte days. While it is good to have all this activity, it is making > life difficult for a few folks around here. What would you think if we were > to move this main list to a site like egroups.com? That would also give you > web access to archives, file lists, and other features. > > > Your thoughts? > > > > -Carl
[REBOL] Port timeout Re:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2000, you wrote: > How do I manipulate the timeout on ports to ensure I dont get a network > timeout error? system/schemes/default/timeout: 7200 > > Also, anyone know the default timeout value. system/schemes/default/timeout == 30 Regards Jochen
[REBOL] View 0.10.35 - Many fixes. Re:(3)
On Mon, 02 Oct 2000, you wrote: > On Sun, 1 Oct 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Sun, 01 Oct 2000, you wrote: > > > Just posted a new View. Major fixes, changes too. See "Changes" icon. > > > By far the most important change is support for Proxies. However, I've > > > only done limited testing, and I could use your help testing it with > > > other firewalls. Please give it a try. > > > > It works cute with my generic-proxy setting (squid, no authentication). > > I've been using rebol with squid for a few years now with no trouble. You run the REBOL/View panel for years through proxies? Why didn't you say anything then when I published my first fixes a few days from now? Regards, Jochen
[REBOL] Repeat pattern Re:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2000, you wrote: > Let suppose this rule: > 12 [thru "" copy text to ""] > > How to modify the syntax if you want to do it not 12 times but only the > 12th time ? Not tested but... counter: 0 tables: [] parse mypage [some [thru " copy text to "" (if (counter // 12) = 0 [append tables text] counter: counter + 1) ] ] > > Thanks
[REBOL] Find problem from ports Re:(3)
On Sun, 01 Oct 2000, you wrote: > Your absolutely right - I made my ircparser very simple for the bots > messages it recieves in the input-buffer based on what I am trying to > achieve. I do intend to make a full fledged ircparser soon for my script > but more importantly as a full irc compliant client in accorance with RFC > 1459. I will also include ident server also when I am done. I did find > that it wasnt a problem with find it was that I had received a message that > didnt contain the "!" in the parse. It presented the problem. I fixed it > with an if function to check for "!" before ircparsing. I have been very > selective on the which incoming messages I use this ircparser function as I > have other functions for different messages. > > I appreciate your input. Very helpful. Why not join forces to create a IRC-Bot that simply blasts all eggdrop-trash away? REBOL/Core is small enough to run on Shell-Accounts - it also supports eough platforms - so it seems to be the perfect language for an IRC-Bot. I plan following features: - Maintenance-port that gives a REBOL-Prompt to extend/bugfix the bot at runtime (Password authenticated with encrypted passwords) - Several in-IRC commands (KICK,JOIN,SEEN,PART,PASS...) - Different categories of users with configurable rights - Inter-Bot-Communications (to work togehter when something happens) - multiple server-connections from one REBOL process - and more to come... I've some experience in writing IRC-Bots. I've written a Bot with C++ and another with Commn Lisp (fully runtime extensible through maintenance-port) This bots run for several years now. Regards, Jochen
[REBOL] View 0.10.35 - Many fixes. Re:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2000, you wrote: > Just posted a new View. Major fixes, changes too. See "Changes" icon. > By far the most important change is support for Proxies. However, I've > only done limited testing, and I could use your help testing it with > other firewalls. Please give it a try. It works cute with my generic-proxy setting (squid, no authentication). > I hope you also find this release to be much more stable. Please use > the feedback icon if you find problems. I need the networking core to > be 100% reliable, and only you can tell me if it is. It's not a view problem but the file http://www.rebol.com/view/reb/tools.r doesn't exist yet... Regards Jochen
[REBOL] download progress Re:(2)
On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Hey I am in need for something like that too! I suppose you are searching fot a text-mode indicator? REBOL/View already has a graphical progress-indicator! If you're clever you can take a deeper look at the function "request-download", replacing the graphical parts through a textual one. Regards Jochen > Lorenz > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 4:17 PM > Subject: [REBOL] download progress > > > Hey list,I don't suppose anyone has made any kind > > of "progress indicator" for downloads, have they? > > If I'm fetching a large file, I would kind of like > > to see how much is left. wget does this pretty well. > > has anyone done this? > > -- > > > > Turn your computer off. Go outside. > > -tom
[REBOL] Find problem from ports Re:
IMHO you make too much assumptions on the IRC-protocoll in your parser. Here's the more complete irc-parsing-function of my IRC-Bot: parse-msg: func [str [string!] /local _sender _par_tk _nick_tk _usr_tk _svr_tk _tpar_tk _trl_tk _cmd_tk _white _nonwhite _parch _space _middle _params _message] [ _white: charset [#" " #"^-" #"^@" #0 #"^M" #"^/"] _nonwhite: complement _white _parch: complement charset " ^-^@^M^/:" _space: [some _white] _middle: [_parch any _nonwhite] _params: [_space [ copy _tpar_tk _middle (append _par_tk _tpar_tk) _params | [#":" copy _trl_tk to end ]]] _message: [opt [#":" [[copy _nick_tk to "!" skip copy _usr_tk to "@" skip copy _svr_tk to " " skip] |copy _nick_tk to " " skip]] copy _cmd_tk to " " _params] clear _par_tk: [] set [_nick_tk _usr_tk _svr_tk _tpar_tk _trl_tk _cmd_tk] none parse/all str _message _sender: either _usr_tk [reduce ['nick _nick_tk 'user _usr_tk 'host _svr_tk]] [_nick_tk] make object! [ sender: _sender command: _cmd_tk parameters: copy _par_tk trailing-arg: _trl_tk ] ] It's not absolutely ready yet, but it works for all IRC-messages On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, you wrote: > I was creating a script for IRC when I noticed that the find command > doesn't seem to work right from reading the port and parsing the data but > does when reading from the console with the same functions. I am reading > in a typical message string into iput-buffer for example (Port is opening a > port to irc): > > ircparser: func [/local a b c][ > a: parse/all copy input-buffer "!" > sendnick: pick a 1 > b: pick a 2 > print b > sendmsg: find b ":" > print sendmsg > c: parse copy input-buffer > senduser: pick c 2 > sendcmd: pick c 3 > sendchan: pick c 4 > ] > > while [true][ > > wait port > > input-buffer: copy first port > > if find/part input-buffer ":" 1 [ > input-buffer: remove head input-buffer > ircparser > ] > > _ Console Windows ___ > NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... > NOTICE AUTH :*** Found your hostname, cached > NOTICE AUTH :*** Checking Ident > NOTICE AUTH :*** No Ident response > none > ** Script Error: find expected series argument of type: series port bitset. > ** Where: sendmsg: find b ":" > print > > > > Anyone know what the problem is? > > Seems to work ok if I recreate the issue from the console.
[REBOL] Solution: Launch Programs from REBOL/View Re:(4)
On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, you wrote: > > This script implements a little telnet-client. By using this code we are > > able to launch programs on all computers that have telnet access!!! > > Oh, great... > > I know of many workarounds, but hey, give me break. Isn't this great that > we can call a telnet client or do a wrap around client/server (like > telnet, but specialized only for this purpose) for calling one single OS > system call? This should be in REBoL. Just like the > "open" "listen" "write" "read", these are basically system calls. We need > "execute/spwan" and/or "fork" and have many things that we could stop > complaining about for quite some time. I know Carl wanted to implement it > in different way (to have task! and stuf) but this wouldn't break that > schema, I believe... Well imagine following: in pseudo-code: ftpcopy rebol to host x open telnetsession to host "x" run rebol on host "x" Do you see the possibilities? Regards Jochen
[REBOL] Solution: Launch Programs from REBOL/View Re:(2)
My first Idea was to use the "browse" function: you can say: browse "http://www.rebol.com" and if your system is properly configured a web-browser will pop-up. Under UN*X REBOL/View is using netscape. So netscape will be startetd by following command triggered through REBOL: /usr/local/bin/netscape -remote "openURL(http://www.rebol.com, new-window)" but if you use browse _this_ way: browse "myapp par1 par2 par3" it will try following: /usr/local/bin/netscape -remote "openURL(myapp par1 par2 par3, new-window)" What we would have to do, is to replace netscape by a simple shell-script that cuts out the URL part of the command args and then launches the application therein. Some minutes ago I'd another Idea that enables us to run programs with all REBOL-releases. (I don't no why nobody else had the idea) In the REBOL-Library lies a cute little script namely "little-bell.r" This script implements a little telnet-client. By using this code we are able to launch programs on all computers that have telnet access!!! Regards Jochen
[REBOL] Solution: Launch Programs from REBOL/View
I've found a solution to launch programs easily from REBOL/View. the Solution is pretty simple but would only work under UN*X/Linux. Now I'am not sure if I should make it public... Regards Jochen
[REBOL] a GC bug of the second kind Re:(7)
On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Hi, > > example code: > > word: use [a] [a: 11 'a] > get word > recycle > get word > > CRASH! > > Ladislav Hm... I thought the GC-Bug with bindings of indefinite extent was solved??? But you're right it crashes (actual REBOL/View [Linux x86 glibc6]) Regards Jochen
[REBOL] Last night's new /View Re:(3)
Hm... can you try the following? trace on read-net "www.rebol.com" "/index.r" trace off In the console And then send me the trace output? Regards, Jochen On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Jochen, > > The prior release I had loaded, worked with your hack. When I started /View > this morning with your > hack, the demo came back saying I was on an old release and would I like to > update it. Ok. > So I downloaded the new version and installed it. It doesn't work (on > win98/NT) as far as > net access is concerned. It either tells me I am not connected (Yeah, > right) or it cannot > connect to Rebol.com. The funny part is that this all started because your > hack worked! (on > the prior release). > Just when Things are Looking Up. > > TIA, > > Greg Piney > S&P Web Engineering
[REBOL] Last night's new /View Re:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote: > The version of /View for win98 uploaded last night, 0.10.34.3.1, Does Not > Work Very Well. > The Demo is Useless. It doesn't work with Jochen's hack. Doesn't work by > itself. Hm... As I remember the machine at work should have this release... The actual Linux release works Are there any other people having problems with the new release (and my hack)? Jochen
[REBOL] Combining a word and a value in one argument Re:
Why not simply:
tst: func [w [word!]] [
print rejoin [w ": " get w]
]
>> var: 4
== 4
>> tst 'var
var: 4
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> Howdy:
> It would be great if I could have a function that
> would take a rebol word as an argument and
> print out both the word and it's value:
> i.e:
> test-int: 4
> tst test-int
>
> >>test-int: 4
>
> This would be similar to a c function using the preprocessor
> stringizer
>
> as in #define PRINT(x) print(x,#x)
> print(int x,char* x_name)
> {
> return printf("%s: %d",x_name,x);
> }
> test-int = 4
> PRINT(test-int); // gives test-int: 4
> I tried playing with first system/words but couldn't come up
> with anything consistant.
> TIA
> -Tim
[REBOL] Working with binary data Re:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> If I read in a binary file I get this for example:
>
> variable: #{
> 5249464624004341666D74201800010001005C774C01
> B2530002332D0400
> }
>
> How do I navigate this to get to specific values and extract them and store
> them in variables?
To move forward in the binary block use skip to walk over the bytes.
To cut out a part of the binary-block use copy/part
e.g choose 4 bytes from byte position 3 (counted from 1 as it is common in
REBOL) in above block:
result: copy/part skip variable 2 4
== #{46462400}
If you want you can write a funciton to make it easier e.g:
cut: func [seq pos len] [
copy/part skip seq (pos - 1) len
]
So you can write the above example as:
cut variable 3 4
Regards
Jochen
[REBOL] Solution: Proxy-Authentication Bug in REBOL/View-Panel Re:(2)
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote: > UNSCRIBE Should I understand this as a threat? ;-) Jochen BTW: try it with "unsubscribe" (without the quotes and in the subject-line)
[REBOL] Solution: Proxy-Authentication Bug in REBOL/View-Panel
I earlier posted a quick-hack to allow to use the REB-Access
through Proxies/Firewalls.
But there was another Bug in the patched read-net function
that prevents read-net to work through Proxies that want a
username and a password for authentication.
This is another quick hack to solve this:
read-net: func [
{Read a file from the net (web). Update progress bar. Allow abort.}
host-name
path
/progress callfunc port-hand
/local port buffer hdr-brk get-data body time data errc size wholepath
][
if error? try [
port: open/direct/binary/no-wait
[scheme: 'tcp
host:
system/schemes/default/proxy/host
port-id:
system/schemes/default/proxy/port-id]
wholepath: rejoin ["http://" host-name path]
] [return none]
insert port rejoin [
"GET " wholepath " HTTP/1.0" crlf
"User-Agent: REBOL/View " system/version crlf
"Accept: */*" crlf
"Host: " host-name crlf
"Proxy-Authorization: " join "Basic " enbase
join system/schemes/default/proxy/user
[#":" system/schemes/default/proxy/pass]
crlf
"Connection: close" crlf
crlf
]
buffer: make binary! 4000
hdr-brk: rejoin [crlf crlf]
size: none
errc: 900
get-data: func [port] [
if none? data: copy port [close port return 'break]
append buffer data
if all [not size body: find/tail buffer hdr-brk] [
parse buffer [
"HTTP" thru " " copy errc [to " " | to newline]
(errc: load/all errc)
thru "Content-length:" copy size to newline]
if errc > 299 [close port return 'break]
size: either size [to-integer trim size] [1]
remove/part buffer body
buffer: make binary! size + 32
append buffer head body
]
if all [size progress] [callfunc size length? buffer]
]
dispatch append copy any [port-hand []] [
port :get-data
30 [print "TIMEOUT***" close port 'break]
]
if errc < 300 [return buffer]
]
IMPORTANT:
If you want to use this function you have to set your default-proxy "host" ,
"port-id", "user" and "pass" parameters.
If you do not need proxy-authentication you have to use the function of my
earlier post.
Experienced readers will easily find the lines I've changed in comparison
to the old function.
But let's face it - this is an ugly hack, that makes that read-net doesn't
work without a proxy (and now authentication) anymore.
What someone (at RT?) should do now is to ad the proper tests if
a Proxy should be used and then does the connection and request either
the old direct way or the new "proxied" way.
Heres an outline:
1) Test if a default-proxy is set
2) Test if requested hostname is in he "bypass" default-proxy settings
3) if 1) is false or 2) is true use the old code
otherwise use the default-proxy for connection, the whole url in the
request and obviously the username and password for proxy-authorization
I've think I'll send a feedback to RT and hope they will finally fix this in
a nice way.
Jochen
[REBOL] The OSCAR Diaries - Initial Entry ( LONG! ) Re:(2)
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Which proves this list not only allows OPINIONS, but > is UNMODERATED. hm... is it bad to allow OPINIONS I like people that have own opinions! Jochen
[REBOL] Still can't access index.r at Rebol.com Re:(5)
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Jochen, > > Thanks for your help on this. Hope I am not being too much of a nuisance. > > I tried to email you the trace as an attached file. I got a rejection > email. It said something about exceeding the quota writing to a temp file > on freenet.de. Could the size of the attached file (86k) be more than you > are allowed to receive via email? No but one of my forwarding accounts has reached his total limit of 4MB. At this time I ry to delete the messages. Because our firewall blocks POP3 I cannot use REBOL to clear the account :( > > Again, thanks very much for your help. > > On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, you wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, you wrote: > > > I do have my default scheme set to the generic proxy. > > > > > > Here's a copy of my user.r: > > > > Has anyone other problems with this? > > > > And Jamey can you send me an echo-output of your trace? > > > > Regards > > Jochen
[REBOL] Still can't access index.r at Rebol.com Re:(3)
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, you wrote: > I do have my default scheme set to the generic proxy. > > Here's a copy of my user.r: Has anyone other problems with this? And Jamey can you send me an echo-output of your trace? Regards Jochen
[REBOL] Still can't access index.r at Rebol.com Re:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, you wrote: > I downloaded the latest view experimental today. Then I appended Jochen > Schmidt's fix, but when I attempt to connect to Rebol.com throught the > panel, I get: > > "Error - Cannot load index file: http://www.rebol.com/index.r" > > However, if I go through the console, I am able to do a: > > print read http://www.rebol.com/index.r > > with no problems. So I know I can connect through the console, just not > through the panel. Any ideas? > > I am running Redhat 6.1. Like I said, I have the latest version of View. > I am going through a generic proxy. With my fix you have to set the generic-proxy in the default-scheme! (system/schemes/default/proxy) I hope that helps. If not, try take a look a the functions "read-net", "read-via" and "request-download" (perhaps with full trace on) Regards, Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Rebcam doesn't work ... Re:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Hello, > > has anyone the same problem with latest /View? Trying to run rebcam returns > following error: > > ** Script Error: face is missing its face argument. > ** Where: do face/action > ->> Yes same here, it seems to be a problem with carls new way of handling actions (that are now functions) I'll take a look at the script Regards Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] The long awaited solution to R/Views proxy/firewall problem!
I've look a little bit deeper for the problems of REBOL/View
with proxies and firewall and was able to fix it.
Heres a short hack that patches the read-net function
so that it uses proxies. A more general fix that could be included
in the next release should now be no problem anymore.
;; This function is a replace for the not proxy-capable "read-net"
;; of th actual REBOL/View release
;; simply append it to your user.r
read-net: func [
{Read a file from the net (web). Update progress bar. Allow abort.}
host-name
path
/progress callfunc port-hand
/local port buffer hdr-brk get-data body time data errc size wholepath
][
if error? try [
port: open/direct/binary/no-wait [scheme: 'tcp host:
system/schemes/default/proxy/host port-id:
system/schemes/default/proxy/port-id]
wholepath: rejoin ["http://" host-name path]
] [return none]
insert port rejoin [
"GET " wholepath " HTTP/1.0" crlf
"User-Agent: REBOL/View " system/version crlf
"Accept: */*" crlf
"Host: " host-name crlf
"Connection: close" crlf
crlf
]
buffer: make binary! 4000
hdr-brk: rejoin [crlf crlf]
size: none
errc: 900
get-data: func [port] [
if none? data: copy port [close port return 'break]
append buffer data
if all [not size body: find/tail buffer hdr-brk] [
parse buffer [
"HTTP" thru " " copy errc [to " " | to newline] (errc:
load/all errc)
thru "Content-length:" copy size to newline]
if errc > 299 [close port return 'break]
size: either size [to-integer trim size] [1]
remove/part buffer body
buffer: make binary! size + 32
append buffer head body
]
if all [size progress] [callfunc size length? buffer]
]
dispatch append copy any [port-hand []] [
port :get-data
30 [print "TIMEOUT***" close port 'break]
]
if errc < 300 [return buffer]
]
Regards
Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Still having problems with panel firewall connection ... Re:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Hi, > > just would like to ask, if firewall panel connection works for you with > new /View version? No same old problem :-( Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(6)
> As long as his support for As long as his support for
> that environment doesn't that approach doesn't
> FORCE ME to use it when IFORCE ME to use it when I
> choose not to. choose not to.
Right, thats my opinion too, but by using compile to hide the source we would
loose the ability to acces code at runtime of compiled code.
Coming from CommonLisp I think this would be very bad - we would
give away a really important feature!
> Carl's support for MS operating systems doesn't keep me from
> using any of several varieties of Unix/Linux (except Debian, but
> that's another issue!), MacOS, etc.
I never said something against this fact.
> > I hope this explaines a little bit more what I wanted to say.
>
> And, of course, all of the above discussion ignores other quite
> legitimate reasons for wanting some sort of pre-processed form
> of code: performance (which you mentioned in an earlier post),
> reduced run-time overhead (no need to parse/translate/compile,
> potentially fewer moving parts in the distributed product,
> potentially simpler set up, etc.), simpler/faster distribution
> ("object" is typically smaller than "source", making it faster
> to download/copy/install, etc.)
Yes that's the point!
_I_ would prefer using compilation (native, bytecode or whatever)
for making the code more efficient and smaller. But I do _not_ want to
loose runtime accessibility to the code.
Regards,
Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(5)
On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote: > At 07:08 a.m. 24/09/00 -0400, you wrote: > >This is one reason Sun's StarOffice isn't taking the corporate world by > >storm -- there isn't a lot of desktop support in place for the product, > >and that's where people spend the real bucks - training and customization. > > I tried it. It's kind of clunky and weird but intriguing. Some of the > labels are still in a foreign language. First I thought it was German, but > I think it's Norwegian. The default spell check language is Norwegian. It > does strange things, such as substituting "/" if you type "--", and it's > hard to find out why or how to change it. Hm.. it maybe because I'm German (and StarDivision was a German Vendor) but I've nto seen such behavior in last releases. Have you ever tried the 5.2 release? (A whole bunch of changes) I like the high grade of integration. Furthermore it has the best formula-editor I ever seen in a wordprocessor. Regards Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(4)
On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote: > That's an attitude that might make sense if you believe the future > will just be like the present, and I'd probably agree with you if the > roads were still full of black Model Ts, but they're not and so I > won't. > > I don't see a future with just a few OSs having 90% of the market, but > dozens of them and in every device imaginable. And of course, > they'll all be chattering to each other over the Net. This is why > cross-platform matters. The future is probably no OS with more than > 20% of the market - when you include phones in the market... > > Like you I also drooled over an Atari 800, but bought a ZX81 instead. > Had two Commodore 64s since then, three Amigas... And you know what? > I'm sick of leaving my programs behind with each change of platform, > or having them become useless because of an OS upgrade. I'm also > sick of having to learn new programming languages with every switch > of platform. REBOL's probably a nice language, (give me time:), but > if it wasn't cross-platform I wouldn't be here. > > As to EPOC32, it's the Psions's OS. See... http://www.psion.com/ > They look kinda nice and kinda fun and are apparently quite popular. > Give me a good reason why they should be ignored? Yes fantastic! _That_ is what I try to say whole the time. The future of OSs is very similar to REBOLs dialecting facilities! We will have highly specialized OSs but can run (With some limits) the same applications on all of them. Some applications will need a special OS/Device but a huge amount of standard software will run everywhere. Regards, Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(4)
On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Hi, Jochen! > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I think CodeSecurity through compiling is nonsense. > > Bit harsh. Not nonsense, just not a perfect solution against a > well-equipped, knowledgeable attacker. Hm my harsh tone seems to be a real problem ... ;-) But I think compared with the other thread this is much lesser harsh ! ??? > > ... not to make sure nobody can read your secrets. > > How about, "To make it difficult enough that fewer will do so, > and to reduce the risk of alterations (accidental or otherwise) > of the source which can create stability/support problems." To ensure the risk of alterations we could also use checksums with our scripts. So that a script can abort after checking it's checksum. This will help out with accidental alterations. (Compiled code can also crash when modified!) The problem with "other" (user?) alterations is a bit more difficult. As a vendor I would reject all warranty-claims if a client modifies the product. To check this we could again use checksums of the distributed files. > > If someone really is interested in your code - a compiler doesn't > > protect you. > > If that someone is sufficiently skilled and has sufficient resources > and time, agreed. But not everyone fits those criteria. This is why I said that it is a sign that the code isn't worth the whole protecting-thing if theres no one that throws in the ressources to reverseengineer it. > > Open Source is a important quality-characteristic... > > Open source development (if properly managed) is certainly an > effective process for producing high-quality code. Even the > Forrester group agrees with that (much to my amazement!) > > > If I charge a software-team to develop a special software for me, > > I certainly want the source too! Such a software will cost me > > ~ 100$ per man-hour!!! > > And if you're paying them to develop custom software for you, it > is certainly reasonable for you to establish as a condition of the > contract that you get the source (or at least have access to it in > the event of a failure on their part). > > However, there's more to the software market than bright people > such as yourself contracting with high-priced developers for the > construction of custom code. It was only a example - I work as Softwaredeveloper at a softwarevendor that creates e. g. software for airports,Air Information Services, traveling-agencies and more. Most of our profit is made through custom applications. 100$ per man-hour is not to much for such work. Most projects cost in the range of some 100k$. > > BOTTOM LINE: As has been pointed out in the recent "40 platforms" > thread, there's a real marketplace out there. While Carl and > company would be within their legal/moral/whatever rights to stop > supplying REBOL for w95/98/nt/2k (just to use a hypothetical and > totally unlikely example ;-), I'd consider that an impractical > decision if the goal is to get REBOL widely adopted. Similarly, > although I applaud/appreciate the legions of excellent developers > who contribute to the open source movement, and am a grateful > beneficiary of their labors, I question the practicality of > refusing to address the concerns of developers who wish to have > some other means of distribution than pure source code -- for a > variety of reasons. I think I have to explain a little more what I meant. I did not say RT should stop supplying Win.. Platforms with their fantastic tools!!! It is important for RT and the REBOL-Comunity that REBOL evolves to a widely used language. What I said was much more general than it obviously seemed. IMHO there exist NO OS I really like. UN*X is the worst OS - besides all the other ;-) I've dreams of what a OS should look like. But no Vendor seems to try to evolve in those directions. As you certainly agree the net is one of the most important things in the future. We are in the beginnings - There is _much_ more possible. The Problem is that the Microsoft-Way (And the Apple Way too!!!) hinders the development of that future. They develop Desktop OSs why should they work toward a more networked future??? Sun is in another situation. They sell servers - so they try to let the network grow more. But there are other reasons why Sun hinders the development too. In relation to to the Open Source topic: IMHO most developers should more think of what source they can protect than what sources to Open. This sounds irritating but if they open most of their code by default and only some little (real valuable) code is protected this would led to a much better situation. What I wanted to say is "Hey Guys look at your Software! Is it REALLY SO special, sophisticated and valuable that it have to be protected?" I hope this explaines a little bit more what I wanted to say. Regards, Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(3)
First: Ok I think some people might have problems with the sarcastic way I talked upon this topic in the last post. So I beg Your pardon - I will try to be more rational in my opinion to this important topic. On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote: > It just depends who your targeting. The 1% "other" > category or everybody else. But only if we try to think in old terms and look backwards in history. If we try to go new ways we should think about using other than mainstream solutions. > It's not about which is better, but which is actually > being used. If we discuss what platforms should be targeted for a new approach like REBOL we _should_ look for the better alternatives not for the failures of history. > I remember drooling over an Atari 800 with a whopping > 8k of RAM (expandable to 16k if you had the extra > $400.)with a casette deck for a drive, but couldn't > afford it. Same story with the first Mac's. Ended up > going the clone route like everybody else. Even > Amiga's looked nice, but just didn't have the status > quo. But thats not the point - I do not say we should target a old forgotten platform like this Atari 800! The other poster wished to have REBOL on an old dead OS (DOS) not I. What I try to say is, that NEW technologies like REBOL need to be targeted to NEW computers. (Similar like Ted stated) I thought we are here to take REBOL to the future! I see no future in Microsofts "One fits all" concept. RT seem to have realized that and so REBOL is targeted at a broad range of different machines. I've seen machine-controlsytems by Siemens that use Windows NT instead of a RealtimeOS. They tried that with a special hardware so that Windows only had to give the commands what to do and the special-hardware is responsible for realtime-actions. A huge expense has to be done to use a OS like Windows NT for a purpose it never was thought for. I've also seen Windows 9x boxes at internet cafes. The maintainers said that they are much easier to use than a Windows NT system or maybe UN*X. After weeksof destructive deeds against this systems the maintainers tried to make the machines scure by using special Win9x security tools. But suddenly only one person could maintain this machines not otherperson understood the chaos. We are now at some new point: We have a new language that tries to do NEW things in a NEW way. This language has a good theoretic foundation, similar to languages like CommonLisp or Scheme. It doesnt't try to simulate old concepts like Java or Python and it's not an ugly hack like Perl. Now we have to think how the future SHOULD look like (_not_ "could") Should we stay in the line of Microsoft & Co.? Should we orient us on old dead things? Think different! You realize - I cannot speak on this Topic and staying fully rational. We need to be motivated to get out of our lethargy. Regards Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(3)
I would prefer a more Lisp-like way of compiling. In Lisp compiling is only for gaining speed and make smaller code-units. In Lisp - similar to REBOL - you can inspect the not native functions at runtime. (in compiled code too!!) So there compilation would be no real protection. History shows that applications written in CommonLisp are solving highly complex tasks e. g. the NASAs Pathfinder-Mission-Planning tool was written in CommonLisp. Although the code is accessible at runtime (and so somewhat "open") CommonLisp applications are sold for huge amounts of money. Yahoo has bought some months ago a CommonLisp application for ~50 Mio $ All customers using CommonLisp say they love the ability to change code in a running application. This is also possible with REBOL and we should not loose it through a compiling feature that hinders us in access to compiled REBOL code. Regards Jochen Schmidt On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote: > > For stand-alone, shrink-wrapped client use, like RebMail, a email client, > > or > > > similar programs, I can imagine that a future Rebol product would a > > Rebol/View or Rebol/Core that can be packaged with a number of encrypted > > scripts into one executable binary. That seems fairly obvious to me. I've > > also CC-ed this to [EMAIL PROTECTED] just in case the Rebol crew haven't > > thought of it yet. > > I think some ideas were expressed for many times here on ml. I also think > RT thought about it already, the question is if they will regard it being > priority. Let's face it: > > Some time ago Carl mentioned something about partial compilation of certain > expression. Just few weeks ago he thowed here one email stating something > like why don't you guys use 'compile? Hey ;-) With no further explanation > following, one can only guys Carl is somethin cooking on his notebook, or I > just misuderstood the issue. > > Elan, in one of his last posts (as reaction to my email of disappointment), > talked about slim binaries. If I am not wrong, slim binaries are kind of > multiplatform binaries. New Amiga OS will have the same advantage. Once app > will be in VP code, you can transfer the file between platforms. I don't > know how efficient the solution could be with interpreted language, if it > would be some kind of byte code or what, but could be interesting ... > > Then there is a possibility of REBOL runtime. Well, that's something I > would like to see as the last option. Why? Because this way RT has to > maintain another family of REBOL versions, limiting the language. > > I would like to see freedom of expression. E.g., some scripts (modules) in > compiled form (slim "binary", byte-p-code, whatever), while end user > ability to influence some of the other scripts (modules) ... > > Some one or two years ago, there was also talk about so called > REBOL/Toolkit - REBOL in the form of libraries, embeddable into another > language apps ... > > > Cheers, > -pekr- > > > Andrew Martin > > ICQ: 26227169 > > http://members.ncbi.com/AndrewMartin/ > > http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ > > -><-
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(2)
I think CodeSecurity through compiling is nonsense. You should compile something to make it running faster, not to make sure nobody can read your secrets. If someone really is interested in your code - a compiler doesn't protect you. If you say "But it's a great efford to disassemble and reengineer compiled code and nobody will do that" then your code isn't really worth to protect it. IMHO 99.99% of the nowadays written code isn't worth protecting it. The little amount of code that is really sophisticated and valueable would need to be protected by stronger means. But why? IMHO I think it is ridiculous to think that "Open Source" projects can be cloned by each newbie-programmer. A open-sourced project that offers really sophisticated code is not easy to understand and therefore not easy to clone. If someone has the ressources to (legally) clone such a complex project, he would certainly have also the resources to rewrite it from scratch. Open Source is a important quality-characteristic. If I can choose between a opensource application and a closed-source application? You know what I would choose. Is it so that with Open Source projects all people begin to clone the software and not buying it? I do not want to write my own webserver - I simply use Apache and I know that the good folks that develop this tool will make a far better job than I could do. If I charge a software-team to develop a special software for me, I certainly want the source too! Such a software will cost me ~ 100$ per man-hour!!! Regards, Jochen Schmidt On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I heard about a compiler for Rebol. Is it still available... > > That's Sherman. It's a compiler for an old version of Rebol. I believe it > won't work for recent versions of Rebol. > > > because how can you deliver application to client if there isn't any kind > > of code protection? > > With Rebol/Command, this might not be an issue, as it's more a CGI and in > house tool, I believe. > > For Rebol/View, this doesn't seem to be an issue, because the source code > is stored at a URL. This operates much like HTML pages and JavaScript on > the web does currently. Organisations pay people to write HTML, JavaScript, > Java and to design .gif, .jpeg and Flash graphics, yet piracy of the "code" > isn't really a problem, because the "code" is embedded in the content. > > For stand-alone, shrink-wrapped client use, like RebMail, a email client, > or similar programs, I can imagine that a future Rebol product would a > Rebol/View or Rebol/Core that can be packaged with a number of encrypted > scripts into one executable binary. That seems fairly obvious to me. I've > also CC-ed this to [EMAIL PROTECTED] just in case the Rebol crew haven't > thought of it yet.
[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(2)
On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, you wrote: > On 9/23/2000 at 12:14 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >yet there is no Rebol/DOS platform? > > The conventional wisdom would be that people who are using DOS > generally aren't shopping for new software. > > This is also a reason commercial applications are built for the > latest-and-greatest computers (rather than the mode). The people with > new computers are the ones looking for new software. > Really wise spoken - good point!
[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, you wrote: > Below are some old OS market share stats (no doubt > Unix flavours have grown). It's clear the Microsoft > has the monopoly on OS's. An interesting point.. > apparently DOS has a greater market share than Linux > and Unix combined (although this may have changed as > well) and yet there is no Rebol/DOS platform? Oh yes lets bring REBOL to good 'ol Q-DOS - best OS ever made. (Men I never heard such a trash) > Market share of OS's as of July 1999 > > Windows Flavours 90.5 % > Mac 5 % > Unix Flavours 2.9 % > > Total percentage of these OS flavours - 98.4 % > Total percentage of all other platforms - 1.6 % Sponsored by whom? > 3 Platforms... Win 95, Win 98 and NT account for 85.6 > % of the market. Thats 3 Platforms??? Where's the difference between win95 and win98? > > Source CNET(July 1999): > http://www.canada.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-345114.html > > Any current OS stats kicking around? Sure look at www.microsoft.com they certainly have what you search. > > Also to note a recent quote regarding Windows ME sales > from CNET... > "September 20, 2000, 4:00 p.m. PT > REDMOND, Wash.--Microsoft sold 250,000 copies of its > new Windows operating system for consumers in U.S. > stores during the first four days since it was > released Thursday, according to a report issued by > research firm PC Data. > > That put it on track to sell more then 400,000 units > in its first month and more than 1 million units at > retail stores before the end of the year." This the good old standard Ad of Microsoft that is published to push sales. > > Source > http://www.canada.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-2825900.html?tag=st.ne.1002.srch >res.ni > > Rather than getting into the whole "Microsoft Sucks" > debate which, from a marketing point of view, is > irrelevant, suffice to say that I only see 3 > platforms, and at the most, 5 or 6. I don't know what you thought you will hear saying such nonsense? If the only 3 Platforms that count for you are Win95,98,NT Why not learning Visual Basic to be really portable between this whole range of OSs. > The phrase "and it operates on over 40 platforms!!!" > is often heard coming out of my mouth... at least when > clients are around. :) Bullshit! You seem to come from marketing. I for my part work in environments with more OSs - Linux x86, Alpha - Tru64, Alpha - HP-UX - MacOS - PalmOS - EPOC32 - Win9x,NT In reality you cannot force your clients to use your "3 Platforms" There are much more OSs around and so much more possibilities in future. The MS-Windows x86 liga was the only factor that hindered the rise of more modern network-oriented crossplatform appliances. The "one fits all" Philosophy of Microsoft is fault that we have lost years and years of internet-evolution. We _need_ different machines and we _need_ different OSs. I dont' want to transport my furniture in a Porsche 911 and I do not want to travel by car if I had to do it in a truck! The army don't use Boeing 777 as Fighters and travellers don't fly in F16s in holidays. My words could be a little bit harsh - the please sorry - but something must happen with those dumb marketing guys that they realize the reality!!! If you work in an MS environment - its your thing But don't force me and the many others that follow another way to concentrate on using inferior technology. Regards Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Standards based NET apps Re:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, you wrote: > I am getting ready to start making a full blown IRC client with REBOL/View > and will most likely create other net applications/clients in compliance > with their respective RFC's. If anyone would like to participate send me > an email and we can make a collaborative effort. > I work on an IRC-Bot - we could merge our effords to produce a good IRC protocol AddOn for Rebol. If you're interested then you can contact me by private mail Jochen Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[REBOL] Some ideas to collaborative environments Re:(3)
Am Sam, 23 Sep 2000 schrieben Sie: > For application proliferation purposes, not requiring a server would help > out alot. Yes this is why I would prefer such a solution. I think I do not relly like the centralisitc approach. I also dislike conservative client/server paradigms. I would prefer a mobile-agent based solution. I had this idea some time ago: If I want something done, I sit down on my (dialup) computer. I'm offline and open my personal-agent communication program. My personal agent appears and I describe him the task he has to do. I go online and my agent transfers its corpus over the line to one of the 24h online agent runtime environments. Now I can go offline, while my agent e. g. watches the stocks (and warning me by SMS if something interesting happens) Perhaps a similar agent-based approach will be interesting for the collaborative environment. The whole collaborative environment coult consist of temporary and permanent online agents that communicate to each other. So one permanent Agent could serve the Environment by providing access to some storageplaces of its own. A temporary Agent could transfer a new file into the Virtual Space. Whats your opinion on this? Jochen
[REBOL] Describing a set of characters Re:
Am Sam, 23 Sep 2000 schrieben Sie: > Hi folks, > > Hope you can help... > > I'm doing some parsing and want to match against any character except a > quote. > > Is there some charset magic where I can do this? cset: complement charset [#"'"] Regards Jochen
[REBOL] Some ideas to collaborative environments
We should not invent thousands of new protocolls for a collaborative environment. Why not using FTP,HTTP,MAIL, IRC and so on in a highly integrated manner. 1) The notion of "Personal Space" and "Group Space": I do not want to know where my globally accessible files really are stored. I want to sit down on a computer somewhere in the world and have immidiate access to "my" files. My globally accessible files should be saved in a secure manner. I call the virtual space where all my personal files are globally accessible my "Personal Space". The same rules of the Personal Space counts also for the "Group Space". A group are some people that share some files and have need for efficient communication between each other. 2) Where are the files stored? The collaborative environment server has access to one or more FTP-accounts. It is possible to use free Webspace-Accounts! If files are important, they can be stored on several sites. Only the collaborative environment bothers with the details of storage-locations. No user of the Environments needs (or should have) access to the environments storage-places - they only need their user-id and password to the collaborative environment. Storageplaces can dynamically added and removed from the environment. 3) How do I search for files? The files are not simply stored "as is". The collaborative environment is some kind of distributed database management system. All files can have user-definable attributes. Files can have multiple revisions (Important if working with shared files!) Older revisions can be branched.. The use of user-definable attributes should be used to let people forget that they are working with files. They should think in a more "objectoriented" manner. Question: Would it be better to use a central-server for the collaborative envrionment like "ICQ" or should we use a more decentralized approach. (E.g. by using IRC to find the other participants and then create direct connections?) Jochen Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[REBOL] tailing file ? Re:(2)
tail is a UNIX-program that shows the last lines of a file. You can use it also to incrementally show the growing output of a log-file. But... what I not understand is why we should have such a tool written in REBOL??? Is the original not good enough? Am Fre, 22 Sep 2000 schrieben Sie: > > Would like to do an equivalent of tail function of Unix under Windows. Is > > there any straight way to do that easily in Rebol? > > Can you describe what the tail function does please? > > > I hope to contribute more efficiently in rebol list in a few month when I > > will know rebol better. > > Welcome to the list! > > Andrew Martin > ICQ: 26227169 > http://members.ncbi.com/AndrewMartin/ > http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ > -><-
[REBOL] REALLY DISCOVER THE POWER OF REBOL Re:(7)
I plan to develop a collaborative work environment tool with REBOL. There is nothing done yet, so that if some of you want to join me please contact me. Jochen Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Am Fre, 22 Sep 2000 schrieben Sie: > Gnutilla is currently wounded from growing pains, Napster's fate > questionable, and all other sorts of peer file sharing are gaining in > popularity. I also sense a high demand for collaborative work > environments. Combining the two, like that BeOS app mentioned a while ago, > is a strong mixture. I don't know if such an app is possible/feasible to > create with REBOL, but since it would run on so many platforms, its > guaranteed a smidgen of popularity. If released before Gnutilla is fixed, > the #2 position is possible. #2 position in peer file sharing would likely > carry over into #1 position in collaborative work environments. > "Collaborative work environment" is something you can achieve, here I go > again, "first in mind."
[REBOL] Will REBOL/View be commercial? Re:(2)
Elan, Sounds really plausible! I really hope you're right and REBOL/View continues to be free and well supported. BTW: I really enjoyed your book :-)
[REBOL] Will REBOL/View be commercial?
After the announcements of the REBOL/Command 1.0 release I wonder if REBOL/View will be free or commercial? If it will be commercial will it be similar expensive like REBOL/Command? Please don't understand me wrong - I like REBOL but coming from the CommonLisp section I wonder about some things: - If REBOL will be mostly commercial how does it compare with e. g. Common Lisp or Python? 1) REBOL has "dialecting" In Common Lisp we have the same "dialecting" features of REBOL. Python doesn't have such features. 2) REBOL is higly network integrated Common Lisp and Python lack the high integration of network-protocols that Rebol has. But it seems to me that this could be really change fast if enough Common Lisp/python developers see and understand the network related features of REBOL. 3) REBOL is highly portable (40 platforms?) Common Lisp exists for nearly all REBOL-capable Platforms too Python exists on a lot of platforms (including all Platforms that have Java) 4) REBOL is small (~300k) Small Common Lisps need around 1,5 MB Pyhton needs ca. 2 MB So here is REBOL really a lot better... 5) REBOL/Command The features of REBOL/Command exist for Common Lisp and Python without the need for paying. To come to the point: If REBOL/View will be commercial liek REBOL/Command then I wonder if REBOL will be a real competitor against Common Lisp for me personal needs... But again... I like REBOL and I hope it will not be fully commercialized Regards Jochen Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[REBOL] Sorry for flood posting
Sorry for my flood posting with the subject "REBOL/View and proxy-configuration" But it seemed to me that my posts did not come through. The first message I've sent reached me 24h after I've sent it. Within this time I received messages from the list so I thought the error was at my end. cheers, Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] REBOL/View and proxy-configuration Re:(2)
Am Son, 17 Sep 2000 schrieben Sie: > Don' worry, the same here. I have reported the same problem to feedback and > to the list at least three times. It lasts last three experimentals or so. > I just hope RT gets it resolved soon ... First: Sorry for my many posts, but it seemed to me that they don't reach the list (Its my first post here but not the first mailing problem within the LAN here). Ah good I have begun to get doubts in my capabilities. This is really annoying since I have no possibility to come around the proxies... Cheers, Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] REBOL/View
Hello, Has anyone made experiences with using REBOL/View in a firewalled LAN? I am in a LAN that blocks nearly all services. We have Squid-Proxies for HTTP and FTP. We have an internal POP3 and SMTP server. If I configure REBOL/View to use our HTTP/FTP Proxy as a 'generic - type Proxy I can fetch HTML pages. But If I click on the "REBOL.com" Icon REBOL/View hangs a while with an empty progress-bar then the window is flashing and I'm on the start screen as before (but the "R" image that shows that REBOL is loading something resists on the down right edge) Is there an option I have to set? I've used REBOL/View successfully with a direct internet connection! Yours sincerely. Jochen Schmidt
