Re: [OT] Antialiased fonts...

[Chris Devers]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 09:12:20PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
> > It also needs an squiggle-tab mechanism for switching between windows of the
> > same app - I want to cycle between all my Terminals and my Omniweb windows
> 
> At least with Terminal you have Command-1, 2, ... which, if you can
> remember which is which isn't so bad.

But Terminal also obeys the CMD~ trick, so the numbered ones are mainly
useful if you want to jump directly to a particular window and you have
too many open to just hit CMD~~~ for example.
 
> > I get the opposite.  Both of my 600MHz Apples with oodles of RAM feel
> > slower than this 'ere P3-600 with 192Mb, running Linux 2.4.16, XFree
> > 3.3.6 and Gnome. 
> 
> Who knows -- perhaps this is some function of the architecture on the
> titanium power book -- it was blindingly quicker than my 500MHz/100(66?) 
> Cube, for reasons I can't yet fathom. 
 
Anecdotally, I understand that over on the Windows side of things, Win2k
wanted a lot more horsepower than WinNT, but provided that you could give
it what it wanted, it used the resources better. Apparently the same very
fast machine would be more responsive after an upgrade to Win2k. Maybe the
same sort of thing is going on now -- iMacs & such are just never going to
be able to run it well, but the newer machines will be fine. 

'course that doesn't help me any, especially as Apple supposedly won't be
releasing 10.2 until next summer... :(

*shrug*



-- 
Chris Devers

"People with machines that think, will in times of crisis, 
make up stuff and attribute it to me" - "Nikla-nostra-debo"

Re: [OT] Antialiased fonts...

[Paul Makepeace]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 09:12:20PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
> It also needs an squiggle-tab mechanism for switching between windows of the
> same app - I want to cycle between all my Terminals and my Omniweb windows

At least with Terminal you have Command-1, 2, ... which, if you can
remember which is which isn't so bad.

> > Aqua OS X 10.1 is really fast on newer Macs. A friend's titanium
> > 667MHz/133 powerbook feels noticeably snappier than my Athlon 1GHz.
> > OS X is faster on those machines than OS 9.
> 
> I get the opposite.  Both of my 600MHz Apples with oodles of RAM feel slower
> than this 'ere P3-600 with 192Mb, running Linux 2.4.16, XFree 3.3.6 and
> Gnome.

Who knows -- perhaps this is some function of the architecture on the
titanium power book -- it was blindingly quicker than my 500MHz/100(66?)
Cube, for reasons I can't yet fathom.

Paul

Re: Publicity Stunts/Advocacy Suggestions?

[Patrick Carmichael]

If you're alluding to Reading FC's descent towards the Unibond League,
then that doesn't actually apply to me ... Wimbledon fan, man and boy ...
so .. oh  yeah .. right .. OK, point taken.

PC

On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Anthony Fisher wrote:

> 
>  Arrange a football contest with teams of
> trained camels. Then give everyone else
> incorrect versions of the rules in advance
> but manage to have your own team come last
> anyway. I think this tactic is popular
> around your parts... :)
> 
>  Tony
> 
> 

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Paul Makepeace]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:14:28PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> /var is intended for machine specific files (traditionally /usr is
> machine common files and often used to exist as an NFS mount).  A mail
> setup is machine specific and lives on /var.

Filesystem Hierarchy Standard
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.0/fhs-toc.html

3.4 /etc : Host-specific system configuration 
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.0/fhs-3.4.html

5. The /var Hierarchy 
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.0/fhs-5.html
   mail: User mailbox files 

YMMV,
Paul

Re: [OT] Antialiased fonts...

[David Cantrell]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 11:52:45AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> Hmm, Aqua could IMO be greatly improved by simple things like Alt-Tab
> switching back to tasks rather than always in one direction, ability to
> perform common operations with the keyboard (e.g. launch programs!) and
> having the damn mouse move faster -- argh. Maybe these are all fixable
> but it's not at all obvious (to me).

It also needs an squiggle-tab mechanism for switching between windows of the
same app - I want to cycle between all my Terminals and my Omniweb windows
as well as other apps without having to make random mouse movements.  Maybe
integrate that in squiggle-tab, but I'd be happy if it was some-other-
modifier-tab to switch between windows of one application.

They could reduce the size of the buttons too.  Or at least make the widgets
and the window mangler decorations scalable.  They take up *far* too much
space.

And they should support white-book VCDs.  Grr.  I am most annoyed that I
can't play my Tom & Jerry VCDs on my iBook.  They play just fine in my DVD
player though.

> Aqua OS X 10.1 is really fast on newer Macs. A friend's titanium
> 667MHz/133 powerbook feels noticeably snappier than my Athlon 1GHz.
> OS X is faster on those machines than OS 9.

I get the opposite.  Both of my 600MHz Apples with oodles of RAM feel slower
than this 'ere P3-600 with 192Mb, running Linux 2.4.16, XFree 3.3.6 and
Gnome.

Oddly, OS X on my nice shiny new iBook feels a bit faster than the exact
same version on my iMac.  Same processor speed, about the same memory (640
in the iBook, 512 in the iMac).  And the iMac has an annoying tendency to
fall off the network if you ask it to transfer a load of data.  And I
can't get appletalk to work between the two of 'em despite being on the
same segment (both hanging off the same hub) and the same IP subnet.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

Considering the number of wheels Microsoft has found reason
to invent, one never ceases to be baffled by the minuscule
number whose shape even vaguely resembles a circle.
  -- anon, on Usenet

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Tom Hukins]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:14:28PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> /var is intended for machine specific files (traditionally /usr is
> machine common files and often used to exist as an NFS mount).  A mail
> setup is machine specific and lives on /var.

I'd argue that the binaries belong in /usr/bin or /usr/local/bin and
the configuration files belong in /etc.  FreeBSD's hier(7) seems to
back this up, claiming that var is for "multi-purpose log, temporary,
transient, and spool files".  I'm not aware of any other application
that stores binaries and man pages in /var.

I like qmail, though, and run it, but it's definitely quirky.

Tom

Re: An unsatisfactory review of the XSLT book

[David Cantrell]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 07:20:25PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
> The people I know who use Perl use it because they thought it looked
> like fun.

Please sir, I started using perl because it would get the job done and it
wasn't C.  At the time (this was perl4-era) I didn't get pointers so
couldn't do anything useful in C - I now grok pointers, I just can't make
head nor tail of C's syntax for 'em.  Java wasn't available.  using awk
was just far too painful, and shell scripts were Right Out cos I had to
test my code on a Win95 box.  Oh, and there was code lurking out on the
net that I could adapt to suit my needs without being well-versed in the
ways of perl.

Programming in perl is not fun for me.  Programming is damned painful.  I
use perl because it is the lesser of several evils.  Perl does indeed
make the easy things easy and the hard things possible, but it doesn't help
with the hardest problem of all - that of designing your code and choosing
algorithms.  That particular problem is just as hard in perl as it is in
an assembler.

Now the *culture* that exists around perl is fun.  I've met wonderful people
and they've made me think about things I wouldn't have thunk about
otherwise.  I love perl's Gift Economy, where one's status is determined by
what one does to help one's fellows.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

  Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
  but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie

Re: web server identification

[Greg McCarroll]

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 06:15:54PM -, Andrew Bowman wrote:
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > I reckon it ought to be fairly easy to identify a web server based
> > > on error messages and details of responses.
> > > Is there any software out there that already does this, or evidence
> > > as to why it would be impractical?
> > Depends what you're trying to achieve - is there anything you need to know
> > that you can't get by doing an HTTP HEAD on a server (one of the methods
> > used by www.netcraft.co.uk for their monthly surveys)?
> 
> I'm thinking of the case where the site has made some effort to hide the
> information involved.
> 

Well if its not immediatly obvious, why don't you send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], you could also mention any enterpreunerial schemes
you have and/or any good pr0n sites you have found recently ;-)

Greg



-- 
Greg McCarroll http://217.34.97.146/~gem/

Re: IRC

[Paul Makepeace]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:59:16PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> * [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Newbie delurking for the first time, trying to get onto the irc channel 
> > #London.pm. Server's refusing my connection, anyone else on at the 
> > moment ( I start hunting on my box then ).
> > 
> 
> try 
> 
> irc.rhizomatic.net

You might find london.rhizomatic.net a safer bet. IRC.rhiz has multiple
A records and some of them aren't all connected. I think they should be
but I've joined and had no-one in that node's #London.pm. It was kind
of spooky.

Paul

Re: [OT] Antialiased fonts...

[Paul Makepeace]

On Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 01:00:10PM -0600, Chris Devers wrote:
> > Do I have to go KDE?
>  
> Can any of the X-Windows based systems do it well these days? It's been a

I use KDE2.2 and while I'm in awe of it in general I was disappoined by
the anti-aliasing. First off I haven't yet managed to get it to aa
TrueType fonts yet. When aa is switched on the available font selection
dwindles to about nothing. Anyone know what's going on here?

> Now that I've spent the last month using CDE (or, ugh, OpenWindows), I
> just feel that a bit more strongly. 

KDE is really good IMO, and Konqueror is an impressive browser.

> My current favorite Unix gui, if it counts, is OSX/Aqua -- it's slow, but

Hmm, Aqua could IMO be greatly improved by simple things like Alt-Tab
switching back to tasks rather than always in one direction, ability to
perform common operations with the keyboard (e.g. launch programs!) and
having the damn mouse move faster -- argh. Maybe these are all fixable
but it's not at all obvious (to me).

> it's pretty and it's consistent, so it'll be fine for now. Next time I get
> a chance to assemble an x86 box, I'll give Linux or BSD a try again. I
> know it's flamewar material, but which of Gnome or KDE has made the most
> progress over the past few years, with regard to things like antialiasing,
> user interface consistency, available applications, etc? I still can't

KDE is getting close to a Windows replacement in terms of application
base. I haven't used GNOME myself so can't say. I don't care if KDE is a
memory hog, it is irrelevant these days.

Aqua OS X 10.1 is really fast on newer Macs. A friend's titanium
667MHz/133 powerbook feels noticeably snappier than my Athlon 1GHz.
OS X is faster on those machines than OS 9.

Paul

Re: web server identification

[Chris Devers]

On 3 Dec 2001, Steve Mynott wrote:

> Obvious things are is the response 200 or 404 for requests for
> default.htm or index.html?

We're going in circles here, but if it's up to me, I like to tell Apache
to map all .htm files to .html, and in the case of home pages I redirect
requests for default.htm to index.html, just so that anyone used to one or
the other naming scheme will still be able to get to the documents. SO you
might want to expand that to 200, 30x, or 404 responses...

> You could also get clever and pretend to be a web proxy since there are
> probably differences in the way these get treated.  Also try to find
> things which are due to basic server differences like threads or
> whatever (simultaneous requests?) 
 
Examples? Every Apache specific feature I can think of, I can think of a
way to make it act like IIS, at least superficially. I'm sure someone
cleverer than me can do the same more discretely, or get IIS to act like
Apache (? maybe, dunno...). 

I think probabilistic measures are the way to go here. For each host, hit
it with a battery of tests & use that to come up with a hypothesis and a
confidence value for that hypothesis. What features could go into this
battery, and what rankings/weights should they get? Criteria to try, off
the top of my head (surely an incomplete list):

* http header strings
* 404 response
* 3xx responses
* response to requests for index.html
* response to requests for default.htm
* response to requests for foo.cgi
* response to requests for foo.pl
* response to requests for foo.py
* response to requests for foo.php
* response to requests for foo.exe
* response to requests for foo.asp
* response to requests for foo.htm
* response to requests for foo.html
* existance of a /cgi-bin/ directory

There are probably lots more like that last one, in particular. To each of
those criteria you can attach a weight -- 0.2, 0.05, etc -- that would
ideally work out to 1.0, and then just work out the weighted mean or
whatever. 


-- 
Chris Devers

"People with machines that think, will in times of crisis, 
make up stuff and attribute it to me" - "Nikla-nostra-debo"

Re: An unsatisfactory review of the XSLT book

[Dave Hodgkinson]

Andy Wardley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> So don't worry Dave if you think you don't get it.  You do.  No really, 
> you've got it.  It's the rest of the World that is fucked up.  Honest.

Can I have some money please?

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hirehttp://www.davehodgkinson.com
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
Deep Purple Family Tree news  http://www.slashrock.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire

Re: An unsatisfactory review of the XSLT book

[Roger Burton West]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:37:15PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
>In this world there are two kinds of people.  Packers and Mappers.

I'd find this whole argument (see http://www.reciprocality.org/ if you
haven't met it before) a great deal more convincing if it weren't so
obvious that every reader is meant to consider himself a mapper.

>Packers do what they're told.  They use XML, they use Java, they use
>Microsoft Word for Windows and PowerPoint.  
>
>Mappers use Perl.  It's not regular.  It's not "simple" (like (Lisp())).  It's 
>not "Industry Standard, Enterprise Edition Buzzword Compliant".  

OK, here's a different overgeneralisation, which I think is also valid
to some extent. (Yes, I'm sure there are lots of exceptions both
ways...)

The people I know who use Java use it because they were told to
(university course or job), or because they thought it would get them a
good job.

The people I know who use Perl use it because they thought it looked
like fun.


Now, if you wanted to suggest personality types based on _number_ of
programming languages known, you might get me more on your side...

-- 
He's a lounge-singing hunchbacked assassin in drag. She's a violent
nymphomaniac vampire from a secret island of warrior women. They fight
crime!

Re: An unsatisfactory review of the XSLT book

[Andy Wardley]

On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 01:13:24PM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
> XML, I get. Having tight, defined data formats is a good thing. Being
> able to transform that data for many different media is also a good
> thing but the hoops you have to jump through to get any results at all
> seem daunting. 

I think that sums up the whole XML debacle pretty well.

* W3C => committee of bickering vendors dominated by Microsoft who really 
  Don't Have a Clue.

* XML => pile of festering, fetid turdage, based on a markup langyage 
  designed in the 60's and re-invented, badly, by a committee of bickering
  vendors etc. (see W3C above)

* Microsoft XML => pile of festering, etc., (see XML above) which will be
  "80-90% compatiblei" with regular XML (paraphrasing Microsoft's words, but 
  I can't find the original quote now).

> I shall stick to the Template Toolkit and wait on Matt
> Sargeant to produce something pragmatic.

The secret is to know when to use XML (occasionally) and when not to use 
it (mostly).  Combine with your favourite tools (all Rah! Sargeant) and 
ingest with plenty of water.

 # bollocks to XML!

> Overall, this was too far removed from anything I know or want to do
> to be of any use to me.

Sit down, Dave.  Have a cuppa.  Take the weight off your feet.  You've 
been put through a lot of stress.  Try to remove XML from your mind.
Don't let the XSL madness get to you.  Life's too short.  Let me tell 
you about the World. (wibbly wobbly visuals cue fade to Jackanory)

In this world there are two kinds of people.  Packers and Mappers.

Packers blindly follow the rules.  They design complex, highly regular,
highly structured, extensive, universal, all-bow-down-and-chant-my-name
solutions which are clever but ugly.  Butt ugly.  They use Java because
Sun told them to.  They use XML because they have to work around the 
limitations of Java.  And because they heard it was the "industry standard".

Mappers are people who engage their brains.  They are creative and innovative,
and don't mind punching Francis Rossi in the face (or otherwise upsetting the
Status Quo).  They are people like Larry who sometimes break the rules and
make things irregular and wonky because people like things like that.

Packers do what they're told.  They use XML, they use Java, they use
Microsoft Word for Windows and PowerPoint.  

Mappers use Perl.  It's not regular.  It's not "simple" (like (Lisp())).  It's 
not "Industry Standard, Enterprise Edition Buzzword Compliant".  

It's useful.  Far too useful for all that.

So don't worry Dave if you think you don't get it.  You do.  No really, 
you've got it.  It's the rest of the World that is fucked up.  Honest.

Oops.  I opened my mouth and a rant fell out.  Sorry.


A

Re: web server identification

[Steve Mynott]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> I'm thinking of more or less the same functionality as (iirc) queso,
> which will guess a machine's OS from looking at responses to various
> interesting network packets.

There are only a few web servers in common use (Apache, IIS and
iPlanet (formerly Netscape) and Zeus.

I suppose you could start by constructing a few URLs which are likely
to incite the servers into different responses and testing those
against these servers in their default configurations.

Obvious things are is the response 200 or 404 for requests for
default.htm or index.html?  It's probably best to concentration on
differences which are usually configuration independent.

Since Netcraft go around the net doing this stuff to others you could
start there and give them a taste of their own medicine by sending
those sort of URL requests beloved of CERT advisories like 

'HEAD www.netcraft.com/../' 

(which seems to give 200 on IIS and 400 on Apache).

Some things seem a dead giveaway to OS (or at least file system) like
'HEAD www.microsoft.com/\\'

You could also get clever and pretend to be a web proxy since there
are probably differences in the way these get treated.  Also try to
find things which are due to basic server differences like threads or
whatever (simultaneous requests?)

You will probably find bugs in the way the servers operate this way.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

i gained nothing at all from supreme enlightenment, and for that very
reason it is called supreme enlightenment.  -- gotama buddha

Re: web server identification

[the hatter]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I'm thinking of more or less the same functionality as (iirc) queso,
> which will guess a machine's OS from looking at responses to various
> interesting network packets.

I'd think that, even if they change/remove the Server: header that the
other information in the headers (the formats used, and even which ones ar
present) would be a good place to start)  It's fairly easy to hide all of
the standard information that appears in things like 404 pages, even
unintentionally, just by having custom replacements for cosmetic reasons.
Same goes for directory listings.

And it'd be Wrong to check for certain well-known security holes (in
apache/iis/etc themselves, or by asking php/known-bad scripts like the
old nph-* ones/ones left by codered/etc) and see if they work, and 
if they know better than the headers wouldn't it ?


the hatter

Re: web server identification

[Andrew Bowman]

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I reckon it ought to be fairly easy to identify a web server based
> on error messages and details of responses.
>
> Is there any software out there that already does this, or evidence
> as to why it would be impractical?

Depends what you're trying to achieve - is there anything you need to know
that you can't get by doing an HTTP HEAD on a server (one of the methods
used by www.netcraft.co.uk for their monthly surveys)?

Andrew.

Re: web server identification

[Chris Devers]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, David Cantrell wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 04:38:04PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I reckon it ought to be fairly easy to identify a web server based
> > on error messages and details of responses.
> > 
> > Is there any software out there that already does this, or evidence
> > as to why it would be impractical?
> 
> It's impractical.  google for apache errordocument.
 
Depends how much precision he needs though -- I don't have any statistics,
but it seems like most sites don't bother changing the default error doc
pages, so while it isn't a 100% reliable check by a long shot, it can be
one of several strong indicators (along with http headers). 

Amusingly, when encountering an error, Internet Explorer checks to see if
the response is longer than some byte length, I think maybe 512 or 1024.
If it's shorter, then IE assumes the default hasn't changed and provides
it's not-very-much-more-helpful one instead. Lesson: if you're going to
customize your error pages -- and you should -- then make sure the main
returned html document is at least 1k long...


-- 
Chris Devers

"People with machines that think, will in times of crisis, 
make up stuff and attribute it to me" - "Nikla-nostra-debo"

Re: web server identification

[Leon Brocard]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] sent the following bits through the ether:

> That doesn't actually *say*, but it sounds like it just uses the
> Server: header to work out what web server you're running.

It does. I never got around to releasing the module when I was working
there.

Anyway, I was *convinced* there was a hacking paper somewhere on
remotely identifying web servers based on other headers / error pages
etc. but I can't find one. Can't be too hard... ;-)

Leon
--
...

Re: Where would you like to go today?

[Dominic Mitchell]

Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Well they should bloody stop gloating about having Christmas barbecues
> on the beach then!

Ummm, it's not that bad, my christmas turkey was done on a barbie last
year, and very yummy it was too.

-Dom

-- 
| Semantico: creators of major online resources  |
|   URL: http://www.semantico.com/   |
|   Tel: +44 (1273) 72   |
|   Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |

Re: web server identification

[David Cantrell]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 04:38:04PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I reckon it ought to be fairly easy to identify a web server based
> on error messages and details of responses.
> 
> Is there any software out there that already does this, or evidence
> as to why it would be impractical?

It's impractical.  google for apache errordocument.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Greg McCarroll]

* Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> Bully for you!
> 

Remember, arguments are not won on mailing lists[1] with phrases like
the above. Of course, humour is always IMHO welcome, and a smiley goes
a long way to identifying a phrase like the above as humour before it
gets out of control and its hand bags and 10 paces ;-).

Ho hum.

Greg

[1] In fact arguments are probably never won on mailing lists, but
thats another matter.

-- 
Greg McCarroll http://217.34.97.146/~gem/

Re: web server identification

[Chris Devers]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I reckon it ought to be fairly easy to identify a web server based
> on error messages and details of responses.

But that sort of thing can be munged. Can you query $ENV{server_software}?
Even if you could, that can me munged too. 
 
> Is there any software out there that already does this, or evidence
> as to why it would be impractical?

What are you trying to do? Could you get away with asking Netcraft? They
had a feature that would poll a given server and tell you what software it
thought the server in question was running. This could be LWP-able...


-- 
Chris Devers

"People with machines that think, will in times of crisis, 
make up stuff and attribute it to me" - "Nikla-nostra-debo"

Re: web server identification

[Chris Ball]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 04:38:04PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I reckon it ought to be fairly easy to identify a web server based
> on error messages and details of responses.

It is.  That, and it usually tells you.

> Is there any software out there that already does this, or evidence
> as to why it would be impractical?

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/ - works via a CGI form.

- ~C.
-- 
$a="printf.net"; Chris Ball | chris@void.$a | www.$a | finger: chris@$a
As to luck, there's the old miners' proverb: Gold is where you find it.

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[David Cantrell]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 04:08:57PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:26:09PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> > It's hard to do even simple things properly and securely in computer
> > programming.
> > 
> > So its best to implement the mimimal amount of code on the basis there
> > will be fewer bugs in it. 
> So why reimplement everything that moves?

Because nothing that moves meets his high standards.  That, and he has the
time/energy/ability to do something about it.

> > KISS.
> 
> Yes. So why reimpliment everything, with a different, incompatible
> interface, so the sysadmin has to comprehend something completely different
> to what he's used to, so that he can make it secure with ease.

Now I haven't tried qmail or ezmlm, but it is remarkably easy to configure
djb's dns, ftp and http servers to be secure.  In fact that is their default
state, you have to deliberately loosen the security if that is not what you
desire.  This is how things should be.

> > I would be more likely to be impressed by this code if I could
> > actually download it and if it were mirrored!
> Oh. right. I'll remember to try and download some of your software when
> your server is down, just so I can complain about it.

I think that Steve phrased that badly and you misunderstood him.  If I can't
download the code, I *can't* be impressed by it.  And it is true that the
code for many of the most impressive projects is widely distributed.
Frequently in all sorts of old versions :-)  As for my own code, anything
that I think is really important is indeed mirrored elsewhere.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

Re: Re: IRC

[Robin Houston]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:51:01PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Nope, busted somewhere here then.
> 
> Using www.missingU.com/irc/ as a public webchat client ( behind 
> fireway, so no inhouse chat ), getting the following response

http://www.chickshardware.com/emb/mouselike/008846881x3.html

seems to be a working (if primitive) webchat client.
I've succesfully connected to Rhizomatic using it just now.
It takes a while to connect.

 .robin.

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Matthew Byng-Maddick]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:26:09PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:16:40PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> [..]
> > > What's non-portable about djbware?  I have had no problems compiling
> > That it doesn't interoperate sensibly with anything else. see my other
> > post.
> interoperability != non-portable

OK. Also, where did I actually say that DJBware was non-portable? (in the
bit of my message that you've carefully snipped)

> > > on a wide range of unix systems.  Also you don't you have to use the
> > > "alternative" ways of doing things.
> > At the expense of vastly reduced functionality.
> That's a deliberate and correct design choice.

Oh? deliberate, yes. correct, not so sure.

> It's hard to do even simple things properly and securely in computer
> programming.

Yeah, so you don't comment your code, create users left, right and centre,
in order to hope that they won't interact in some odd way.

> So its best to implement the mimimal amount of code on the basis there
> will be fewer bugs in it. 

So why reimplement everything that moves?

> KISS.

Yes. So why reimpliment everything, with a different, incompatible
interface, so the sysadmin has to comprehend something completely different
to what he's used to, so that he can make it secure with ease.

> > > Do you have a link for msntpd? (google fails to find anything).
> > http://www.linux.org/apps/AppId_6439.html
> I would be more likely to be impressed by this code if I could
> actually download it and if it were mirrored!

Oh. right. I'll remember to try and download some of your software when
your server is down, just so I can complain about it.

> and for the record I am not a total DJB freak since I prefer vsftpd
> to publicfile!
> (and he has flamed me in the past!)

Bully for you!

MBM

-- 
People ask me what I do for a living, and I tell 'em "I type". It's accurate,
and easier to explain than "I administrate a cluster of IVR computer telephony
and occasionally pull shifts in the Mail Ops NOC." What do I do, really? I just
sit here at my desk, and I type. I am a good typer. -- Huey

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Matthew Byng-Maddick]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:26:09PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> 
> which doesn't ping (looks like an unplugged student's desktop machine
> from the domain I would guess)

csi => computing services internal.

not a student. Someone who knows a fuck lot more about UNIX and C than
anyone else I know (including previous IOCCC winners).

MBM

-- 
When I got my Libretto (a PC about the size of a hardback novel) my colleagues
cecided that it was too small to be a laptop so it must therefore be a dicktop.
-- Tony Finch

Re: IRC

[Leon Brocard]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] sent the following bits through the ether:

> Newbie delurking for the first time, trying to get onto the irc channel 
> #London.pm. Server's refusing my connection, anyone else on at the 
> moment ( I start hunting on my box then ).

That's 'cos there's a user limit on london.rhizomatic.net. As soon as
I figure out how to remove the user limit I will (it's at 22, but I
completely fail to grok ircd.conf) but until then use
irc.rhizomatic.net (which will give you a random server)...

Leon
--
.sig

RE: Re: IRC

[David . Neal]

Nope, busted somewhere here then.

Using www.missingU.com/irc/ as a public webchat client ( behind 
fireway, so no inhouse chat ), getting the following response

Connecting to london.rhizomatic.net:6667 <- have tried irc. too
Waiting for serber to respond
Connection closed
Cannot connect to relay server


Then goes dead. Guess it's something to do with using an external chat 
client ( see above ).

Cheers anyway, will just have to bug you all by mail.

Dave

> -Original Message-
> From: david 
> Sent: 03 December 2001 15:38
> To: london.pm
> Cc: david
> Subject: Re: IRC
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:28:28PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > Newbie delurking for the first time, trying to get onto the 
> irc channel 
> > #London.pm. Server's refusing my connection, anyone else on at the 
> > moment ( I start hunting on my box then ).
> 
> There's always someone in the channel.  Which server were you trying?
> 
> -- 
> David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 
> http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david
> 
>   o/~ I want my SMTP o/~
> 
> 


Visit our website at http://www.ubswarburg.com

This message contains confidential information and is intended only 
for the individual named.  If you are not the named addressee you 
should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.  Please 
notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this 
e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.

E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free 
as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, 
arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses.  The sender therefore 
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents 
of this message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.  If 
verification is required please request a hard-copy version.  This 
message is provided for informational purposes and should not be 
construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any securities or 
related financial instruments.

Re: IRC

[Greg McCarroll]

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Newbie delurking for the first time, trying to get onto the irc channel 
> #London.pm. Server's refusing my connection, anyone else on at the 
> moment ( I start hunting on my box then ).
> 

try 

irc.rhizomatic.net
#london.pm

alternatively

irc.dal.net
#sex_with_desert_creatures_with_long_eyelashes

will catch some of us ;-)


-- 
Greg McCarroll http://217.34.97.146/~gem/

Re: IRC

[David Cantrell]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:28:28PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Newbie delurking for the first time, trying to get onto the irc channel 
> #London.pm. Server's refusing my connection, anyone else on at the 
> moment ( I start hunting on my box then ).

There's always someone in the channel.  Which server were you trying?

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

  o/~ I want my SMTP o/~

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Steve Mynott]

Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:16:40PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:

[..]

> > What's non-portable about djbware?  I have had no problems compiling
> 
> That it doesn't interoperate sensibly with anything else. see my other
> post.

interoperability != non-portable
 
> > on a wide range of unix systems.  Also you don't you have to use the
> > "alternative" ways of doing things.
> 
> At the expense of vastly reduced functionality.

That's a deliberate and correct design choice.

It's hard to do even simple things properly and securely in computer
programming.

So its best to implement the mimimal amount of code on the basis there
will be fewer bugs in it. 

KISS.

> 
> > Do you have a link for msntpd? (google fails to find anything).
> 
> http://www.linux.org/apps/AppId_6439.html

which points to 



which doesn't ping (looks like an unplugged student's desktop machine
from the domain I would guess)

I would be more likely to be impressed by this code if I could
actually download it and if it were mirrored!

and for the record I am not a total DJB freak since I prefer vsftpd
to publicfile!

(and he has flamed me in the past!)

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]


enfopol 98 the european community

IRC

[David . Neal]

Hi all,

Newbie delurking for the first time, trying to get onto the irc channel 
#London.pm. Server's refusing my connection, anyone else on at the 
moment ( I start hunting on my box then ).

Cheers

Dave Neal
Sorry for the disclaimer, bit big


Visit our website at http://www.ubswarburg.com

This message contains confidential information and is intended only 
for the individual named.  If you are not the named addressee you 
should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.  Please 
notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this 
e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.

E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free 
as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, 
arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses.  The sender therefore 
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents 
of this message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.  If 
verification is required please request a hard-copy version.  This 
message is provided for informational purposes and should not be 
construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any securities or 
related financial instruments.

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Steve Mynott]

Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 
> How you implement something as a sysadmin is quite a subjective thing, and
> I happen not to like the idea that I ought to transfer zones to my
> secondary nameservers via ssh, for example, or that my configurations for
> my mailserver reside in /var, or that reporting a bug is a severe mental
> torture, because there are no bugs, only incorrect readings of the spec,
> and that in order to make any of his software useful, you need a myriad of
> patches, applied in the right order, of course.

I think he is quite right about the zone transfer thing.  It's just a
specific case of the more general case of transfering files between
machines and there is no reason to invent an overcomplex, broken new
way of doing things where you can use more secure and convenient scp
and rsync.

/var is intended for machine specific files (traditionally /usr is
machine common files and often used to exist as an NFS mount).  A mail
setup is machine specific and lives on /var.

Anyway this is a silly point because its a configurable option (change
conf-qmail to point at /usr/local/qmail if you wish.

Again I think he tends to be right about the bugs not being bugs.  You
only have to read bug reports to realise that 9 of 10 bugs aren't bugs
at all but due to users misunderstanding stuff.

Again I have never had to apply any patches to his software.  Perhaps
you could quote some examples from the "myriad" of these?

> That kind of thing. It's also the fact that, for example, ezmlm only really
> works properly if you're using qmail as the MTA. qmail only really works
> properly if you're using djbdns to provide your nameservice, and you have
> DJBs CDB etc libraries installed, and then you have to use his start-stop
> system for qmail, because he doesn't like the standard ones, so has chosen
> to write his own incompatible one.

It's true that ezmlm is dependent on qmail but it's total nonsense to
say qmail depends on djbdns.

I have run it at major ISPs for years before djbdns was even released!
You don't have to use his start-stop system for qmail or his logging
system and the install instructions don't even suggest it!

Have you ever installed and ran qmail?  Your lack of knowledge
suggests to me you haven't.

> > I take the view that I adopt the OS manufacturers approach for
> > configuration/structure and don't listen to software developers when
> > it comes to these things (although I did resist M$' approach for
> > sometime).
> 
> Sure. This is IMO a sensible approach, especially when core upgrades
> happen.

So you don't install open source from source on systems at all but
would rely on Sun's shipped sendmail etc?

Madness.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

there are some politicians who, if their constituents were cannibals,
would promise them missionaries for dinner. -- h.l. mencken

Re: Book Reviews

[Chris Devers]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Alex Gough wrote:

> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Chris Devers wrote:
> >
> > > My book showed up last night! :)
> > >
> > > It seems to be *very* introductory on the Perl side -- actual [tongue in
> > > cheek] bullet points from chapter two:
> > >
> > > * What is a computer program?
> > > * What is a programming language?
> > > * What is a computer?
> 
> Where they in that order, or do biologists usually start reading
> at the bottom of a page?
 
Yes, it's in that order. The narrative goes something like "in order to
solve these sorts of problems, you write a computer program, and in order
to run a computer program you have to write it in a programming language."
And then the three explicatory bullet points, with the third one being
more or less just a joke. 

But it'll all be in the review, whenever I finish reading it.



-- 
Chris Devers

"People with machines that think, will in times of crisis, 
make up stuff and attribute it to me" - "Nikla-nostra-debo"

Re: sun bans powerpoint

[pdcawley]

Simon Wilcox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
>
>> anyone got a link to the time when Sun banned powerpoint use by its
>> sales people (network storage overhead) and then went on to have iuts
>> best ever quarter? this was a few years ago
>
> Can't find that one but this one is probably just as good "Pentagon cracks
> down on PowerPoint".
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2555917-1,00.html

http://www.norvig.com/Gettysburg/ is pretty staggering too.

-- 
Piers

   "It is a truth universally acknowledged that a language in
possession of a rich syntax must be in need of a rewrite."
 -- Jane Austen?

Re: Book Reviews

[Lucy McWilliam]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Newton, Philip wrote:
> Lucy McWilliam wrote:

> > .sdrawkcab etirw dna daer su fo emos, yllautcA.
> > ""woc a ma I.  yiasD si eman yM"
>
> Sah woc ruoy eman ynnuf.

.regguB

Incidentally, Nodnol in the Red Dwarf episode 'Backwards' is really
Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester, and Eddie Izzard's 1998 'Dressed to
Kill' video is scarily prescient in terms of bin Laden and anthrax.


L.
"I've never seen him lose a ball down one of those holes."

Re: Book Reviews

[Matthew Byng-Maddick]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 03:14:56PM +0100, Newton, Philip wrote:
> Lucy McWilliam wrote:
> > .sdrawkcab etirw dna daer su fo emos, yllautcA.
> Stsirorret Cibara lla er'uoy naem taht seod?

I'm just waiting for the US Citizens on this list to pounce on you and say
that this is in bad taste.

MBM

-- 
* rejs consults his Dell documentation
 The useful manual is the slim one, not the great thick one.  That tells
   me how to sit at a chair in an ergonomic manner in seventeen Slavonic
   and Oriental languages.

Re: sun bans powerpoint

[Simon Wilcox]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

> anyone got a link to the time when Sun banned powerpoint use by its
> sales people (network storage overhead) and then went on to have iuts
> best ever quarter? this was a few years ago

Can't find that one but this one is probably just as good "Pentagon cracks
down on PowerPoint".

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2555917-1,00.html

Simon.

-- 
"I was reading the dictionary. I thought it was a poem about everything."
   - Steven Wright

Re: Book Reviews

[Newton, Philip]

Lucy McWilliam wrote:
> .sdrawkcab etirw dna daer su fo emos, yllautcA.

Stsirorret Cibara lla er'uoy naem taht seod?

> L.
> ""woc a ma I.  yiasD si eman yM"

Sah woc ruoy eman ynnuf.

Sreehc,
Pilihp
-- 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Notwen Pilihp
S'reyolpme ym ton, nwo ym era snoinipo lla.
Etatipicerp eht fo trap er'ouy, noitulos eht fo trap ton er'ouy fi.

Re: Book Reviews

[Lucy McWilliam]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Alex Gough wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Chris Devers wrote:

> > > My book showed up last night! :)
> > >
> > > It seems to be *very* introductory on the Perl side -- actual [tongue in
> > > cheek] bullet points from chapter two:
> > >
> > > * What is a computer program?
> > > * What is a programming language?
> > > * What is a computer?
> >
>
> Where they in that order, or do biologists usually start reading
> at the bottom of a page?

.sdrawkcab etirw dna daer su fo emos, yllautcA.


L.
""woc a ma I.  yiasD si eman yM"

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Matthew Byng-Maddick]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:16:40PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:37:53PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> > > Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> [..]
> > > Apparently XNTP doesn't handle leap seconds correctly
> > You mean xntpd (a software package, not a protocol)
> Yeah typo
> > > 
> > > and DBJ has, surprise surprise, his own replacement...
> > DJB.
> > 
> > But yeah, I'm not surprised. The replacement I'd actually go for, if I were
> > going for a replacement is Nick Maclaren's msntpd, as Nick is just as
> > concerned about correctness (if not more so) as DJB, but works to a
> > portable subset of C, and you don't have to have the rest of the system
> > covered in "alternative" ways of doing things.
> What's non-portable about djbware?  I have had no problems compiling

That it doesn't interoperate sensibly with anything else. see my other
post.

> on a wide range of unix systems.  Also you don't you have to use the
> "alternative" ways of doing things.

At the expense of vastly reduced functionality.

> Do you have a link for msntpd? (google fails to find anything).

http://www.linux.org/apps/AppId_6439.html

MBM

-- 
 OK, performing seal time again. Arf Arf. Watch the seal juggle 
 E450s, then disappear in a puff of marketing.

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Matthew Byng-Maddick]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:22:25PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote something
>   which I have paraphrased into: 
> > DJB requires you to have the rest of the system set up with
> > "alternative" ways of doing things.
> You mean like his /services approach, while Evil Dave (whose opinion I

That's one part of it.

> respect in sysadmin matters) seems to like it, I just don't see the

How you implement something as a sysadmin is quite a subjective thing, and
I happen not to like the idea that I ought to transfer zones to my
secondary nameservers via ssh, for example, or that my configurations for
my mailserver reside in /var, or that reporting a bug is a severe mental
torture, because there are no bugs, only incorrect readings of the spec,
and that in order to make any of his software useful, you need a myriad of
patches, applied in the right order, of course.

> value, and he does seem to have a OpenBSD attitude of coding it for
> his system and letting the rest of the world bugger off (see open ssh
> a few version ago).

That kind of thing. It's also the fact that, for example, ezmlm only really
works properly if you're using qmail as the MTA. qmail only really works
properly if you're using djbdns to provide your nameservice, and you have
DJBs CDB etc libraries installed, and then you have to use his start-stop
system for qmail, because he doesn't like the standard ones, so has chosen
to write his own incompatible one.

> I take the view that I adopt the OS manufacturers approach for
> configuration/structure and don't listen to software developers when
> it comes to these things (although I did resist M$' approach for
> sometime).

Sure. This is IMO a sensible approach, especially when core upgrades
happen.

MBM

-- 
* rejs consults his Dell documentation
 The useful manual is the slim one, not the great thick one.  That tells
   me how to sit at a chair in an ergonomic manner in seventeen Slavonic
   and Oriental languages.

Re: Book Reviews

[Alex Gough]

> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Chris Devers wrote:
>
> > My book showed up last night! :)
> >
> > It seems to be *very* introductory on the Perl side -- actual [tongue in
> > cheek] bullet points from chapter two:
> >
> > * What is a computer program?
> > * What is a programming language?
> > * What is a computer?
>

Where they in that order, or do biologists usually start reading
at the bottom of a page?

Alex Gough
-- 
Dear Mary,
  I yearn for you tragically.
   R. O. Shipman, Chaplain, U.S. Army

Re: Book Reviews

[Lucy McWilliam]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Chris Devers wrote:

> My book showed up last night! :)
>
> It seems to be *very* introductory on the Perl side -- actual [tongue in
> cheek] bullet points from chapter two:
>
> * What is a computer program?
> * What is a programming language?
> * What is a computer?

Us biologists are simple folk ;-)


L.
Love is a four letter word.

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Steve Mynott]

Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:37:53PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> > Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

[..]

> > Apparently XNTP doesn't handle leap seconds correctly
> 
> You mean xntpd (a software package, not a protocol)

Yeah typo

> > 
> > and DBJ has, surprise surprise, his own replacement...
> 
> DJB.
> 
> But yeah, I'm not surprised. The replacement I'd actually go for, if I were
> going for a replacement is Nick Maclaren's msntpd, as Nick is just as
> concerned about correctness (if not more so) as DJB, but works to a
> portable subset of C, and you don't have to have the rest of the system
> covered in "alternative" ways of doing things.

What's non-portable about djbware?  I have had no problems compiling
on a wide range of unix systems.  Also you don't you have to use the
"alternative" ways of doing things.

Do you have a link for msntpd? (google fails to find anything).

> > BTW the OpenBSD man page for timed(0) says
> > "If two or more time daemons, whether timed, NTP, try to adjust the same
> > clock, temporal chaos will result."
> > Don't cross the beams!
> 
> timed != *ntpd

Yes I know.  It was intended as a joke (hence the Ghostbuster's reference)

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are
men who want rain without thunder and lightning.  they want the ocean
without the roar of its many waters.
-- frederick douglass

Restoring Mailman

[Simon Wistow]

After the recent outage on our box I'm left with the output of dumpdb for a
couple of my mailman lists.

I want to reimport the settings from these which appears to be possible
according to this ...

http://msgs.securepoint.com/cgi-bin/get/mailman-users-0110/328/1.html

"Restoring a dumpdb file is a bit of a pain as you end up having to
wrap it in a bit of python that mays it look like an object and
marshalling that to disk.  Not a big pain to be sure, but more pain
than you get with configdb.  Using configdb gets a dumpt of the DB
which can be re-imported by the same tool to re-create to state of
the DB."


Anybody know how to do this? You'd have thunk that there'd be a tool to do
this.

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Greg McCarroll]

* Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote something
  which I have paraphrased into: 

> DJB requires you to have the rest of the system set up with
> "alternative" ways of doing things.

You mean like his /services approach, while Evil Dave (whose opinion I
respect in sysadmin matters) seems to like it, I just don't see the
value, and he does seem to have a OpenBSD attitude of coding it for
his system and letting the rest of the world bugger off (see open ssh
a few version ago).

I take the view that I adopt the OS manufacturers approach for
configuration/structure and don't listen to software developers when
it comes to these things (although I did resist M$' approach for
sometime).

Greg


-- 
Greg McCarroll http://217.34.97.146/~gem/

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Matthew Byng-Maddick]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:37:53PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
> Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 09:26:15AM +0100, Newton, Philip wrote:
> > > Dean Wilson wrote:
> > > > network time syncing (And why NNTP is better than SNTP,
> > > > something I could have done with about six months ago.)
> > > What are NNTP and SNTP? I presume that NNTP in this context is not the
> > > NetNews Transfer Protocol, and haven't heard of SNTP. Presumably they're
> > > both variations on "*** Network Time Protocol"?
> > I suspect that the NNTP was a typo for NTP, SNTP is the Simple Network Time
> > Protocol (RFC2030).
> Apparently XNTP doesn't handle leap seconds correctly

You mean xntpd (a software package, not a protocol)

> 
> and DBJ has, surprise surprise, his own replacement...

DJB.

But yeah, I'm not surprised. The replacement I'd actually go for, if I were
going for a replacement is Nick Maclaren's msntpd, as Nick is just as
concerned about correctness (if not more so) as DJB, but works to a
portable subset of C, and you don't have to have the rest of the system
covered in "alternative" ways of doing things.

> BTW the OpenBSD man page for timed(0) says
> "If two or more time daemons, whether timed, NTP, try to adjust the same
> clock, temporal chaos will result."
> Don't cross the beams!

timed != *ntpd

MBM

-- 
>> I was. You just weren't trying hard enough to be SEEN.
> We had a SHEEP on our table. What more did you want?
A bigger sheep. -- J-P Stacey and Jacqui look for each other at a meet.

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Steve Mynott]

Matthew Byng-Maddick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 09:26:15AM +0100, Newton, Philip wrote:
> > Dean Wilson wrote:
> > > network time syncing (And why NNTP is better than SNTP,
> > > something I could have done with about six months ago.)
> > What are NNTP and SNTP? I presume that NNTP in this context is not the
> > NetNews Transfer Protocol, and haven't heard of SNTP. Presumably they're
> > both variations on "*** Network Time Protocol"?
> 
> I suspect that the NNTP was a typo for NTP, SNTP is the Simple Network Time
> Protocol (RFC2030).

Apparently XNTP doesn't handle leap seconds correctly



and DBJ has, surprise surprise, his own replacement...

BTW the OpenBSD man page for timed(0) says

"If two or more time daemons, whether timed, NTP, try to adjust the same
clock, temporal chaos will result."

Don't cross the beams!

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  /"\
  \ /
   x  ascii ribbon campaign against html e-mail 
  / \

Re: sun bans powerpoint

[Tony Bowden]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:06:51PM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
> anyone got a link to the time when Sun banned powerpoint use by its
> sales people (network storage overhead) and then went on to have iuts
> best ever quarter? this was a few years ago

http://www.google.com/search?q=sun+banned+powerpoint

brings back quite a few ...

Tony

sun bans powerpoint

[Dave Hodgkinson]

anyone got a link to the time when Sun banned powerpoint use by its
sales people (network storage overhead) and then went on to have iuts
best ever quarter? this was a few years ago

Re: NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers fo r the Internet)

[Matthew Byng-Maddick]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 09:26:15AM +0100, Newton, Philip wrote:
> Dean Wilson wrote:
> > network time syncing (And why NNTP is better than SNTP,
> > something I could have done with about six months ago.)
> What are NNTP and SNTP? I presume that NNTP in this context is not the
> NetNews Transfer Protocol, and haven't heard of SNTP. Presumably they're
> both variations on "*** Network Time Protocol"?

I suspect that the NNTP was a typo for NTP, SNTP is the Simple Network Time
Protocol (RFC2030).

MBM

-- 
The American legal system is of course just the British kernel with a shorter
uptime and a few clumsy security patches slapped in. -- NTK 2001-10-05

Re: warning

[Greg McCarroll]

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> Trouble is, AFAICT, you can't even *trade* with the buggers until
> they've discovered the requisite advances.
> 

Well then you have an opportunity to sell advances to them so you can
trade and pocket the cash ;-) Of course if your going to sell an advance
make sure you sell the same advance to everyone else to maximise your
profit and prevent reselling ;-)

Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll http://217.34.97.146/~gem/

Re: warning

[pdcawley]

Mike Jarvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Saturday, December 01, 2001, 3:54:14 PM, Greg McCarroll wrote:
>
> GM> Well, it seems good fun at the start, then you get all the way through
> GM> to future tech. and realise very little has actually changed, sure
> GM> culture is a nice addission and the interface is a little more MacOS
> GM> X/Win XP -ish, but apart from that it really isn't worth buying.
>
> Have to disagree here.  Resources completely change the game,
> particularly if your style has military as a low priority.
>
> Nothing sucks more than being the first to discover all of the cool
> advances and not having coal or iron or uranium.  You can still play a
> quiet game in this situation, but you're much more likely to do like
> real life and go take your neighbor's resources.

Trouble is, AFAICT, you can't even *trade* with the buggers until
they've discovered the requisite advances.

-- 
Piers

   "It is a truth universally acknowledged that a language in
possession of a rich syntax must be in need of a rewrite."
 -- Jane Austen?

NNTP and SNTP (was Re: REVIEW Securing Windows NT/2000 Servers for the Internet)

[Newton, Philip]

Dean Wilson wrote:
> network time syncing (And why NNTP is better than SNTP,
> something I could have done with about six months ago.)

What are NNTP and SNTP? I presume that NNTP in this context is not the
NetNews Transfer Protocol, and haven't heard of SNTP. Presumably they're
both variations on "*** Network Time Protocol"?

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.