Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
I spent five minutes I didn't have reading that page and it seems the proposer wants to disambiguate Perl to follow the example of the German Wikipedia site. Something I found interesting in their discussion: It is possible that Perl became less of the duct tape of the internet because of JavaScript. Didn't know Perl ever competed with Javascript? I am going to rename myself Perl and do something extraordinary to create a need for disambiguation...I might eat 10 potatoes while doing a head stand. AJ On 19/03/13 17:19, Dave Cross wrote: Quoting Richard Foley richard.fo...@rfi.net: We need people with voting facilities (accounts) on Wikipedia to vot up Perl. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Perl#Move_to_.22Perl_.28programming_language.29.22 The proposal here seems to be to rename the Wikipedia article Perl to Perl (Programming Language). I don't agree with the proposal. If there's no need for disambiguation then none should be used. Dave...
Re: New perl features?
Are you referring to the board of McDonalds? On 20/03/13 06:00, DAVID HODGKINSON wrote: Seek out the Dark Knights of Cholesterol.
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On 20 Mar 2013, at 08:20, AJ Dhaliwal wrote: It is possible that Perl became less of the duct tape of the internet because of JavaScript. Didn't know Perl ever competed with Javascript? I think at a certain point UI/UX became more important than just serving up information, Flickr might be the most significant milestone of this change. This arguably made JS a more significant language for web development. Now throw in node.js and recently you could build another argument for the importance of JS. G.
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On 20/03/13 16:47, Greg McCarroll wrote: On 20 Mar 2013, at 08:20, AJ Dhaliwal wrote: It is possible that Perl became less of the duct tape of the internet because of JavaScript. Didn't know Perl ever competed with Javascript? I think at a certain point UI/UX became more important than just serving up information, Flickr might be the most significant milestone of this change. This arguably made JS a more significant language for web development. Now throw in node.js and recently you could build another argument for the importance of JS. G. Good points. I wonder about node.js. JS was designed to be a scripting language. Aren't they pushing it too far with node.js? I admit I have only heard about it and don't have an in depth understanding of their approach.
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On 20 Mar 2013, at 08:47, Greg McCarroll g...@mccarroll.org.uk wrote: Now throw in node.js and recently you could build another argument for the importance of JS. Someone didn't see my talk at LPW.* I think the hype will blow over eventually because people will figure out that cooperative multitasking makes things like bcrypt remarkably hard. Not to mention that it's very irritating to program node. And don't get me started again, I already gave them damn talk. James * The one where I didn't spend the entire time being heckled by people who've been programming perl since the 0.1 release. The one where I had the audience chanting web scale at me. Such fun.
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 04:58:38PM +0800, AJ Dhaliwal wrote: ... Good points. I wonder about node.js. JS was designed to be a scripting language. Aren't they pushing it too far with node.js? I admit I have only heard about it and don't have an in depth understanding of their approach. Javascript has a dark and sordid past, but today it's finally getting on-par with most other programming languages. Getting MVC and testing frameworks and 1.8 adding basic things Javascript lacked since forever for example. They've even added in Python's list comprehensions and generators, though I haven't seen anyone using those yet. -Mallory
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 09:07:43AM +, James Laver wrote: * The one where I didn't spend the entire time being heckled by people who've been programming perl since the 0.1 release. The one where I had the audience chanting web scale at me. Such fun. WEB SCALE
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
perl also has a dark and sordid past shoving stuff for big systems through 1800 baud modems. They're well matched. On 20/03/2013, at 8:55 PM, Mallory van Achterberg wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 04:58:38PM +0800, AJ Dhaliwal wrote: ... Good points. I wonder about node.js. JS was designed to be a scripting language. Aren't they pushing it too far with node.js? I admit I have only heard about it and don't have an in depth understanding of their approach. Javascript has a dark and sordid past, but today it's finally getting on-par with most other programming languages. Getting MVC and testing frameworks and 1.8 adding basic things Javascript lacked since forever for example. They've even added in Python's list comprehensions and generators, though I haven't seen anyone using those yet. -Mallory
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
I think perhaps you meant JUST a scripting language, with the implied aloofness intact ;-) -- Ciao Richard Foley http://www.rfi.net/books.html On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:58:53AM +, DAVID HODGKINSON wrote: On 20 Mar 2013, at 08:58, AJ Dhaliwal adhaliwa...@gmail.com wrote: Good points. I wonder about node.js. JS was designed to be a scripting language. Aren't they pushing it too far with node.js? I admit I have only heard about it and don't have an in depth understanding of their approach. Perl was a scripting language too. Now look at it.
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
I think the original proposer is suggesting that it has more to do with one of the many things we might be able to do to help to raise the perception of Perl in the wider world. WE all know what Perl is, but when someone does a specific search on the 'net, for instance relating to this Tiobe ranking, it's possible that having the wiki page entry, title/header/page/keywords, read Perl (Programming Language) might be more helpful. This is what Tiobe says: The language should have an own entry on Wikipedia and it should clearly state that it concerns a programming language. This is the reason why (Ruby on) Rails, Excel, Android, Boost, Cocoa, ASP and AJAX are not considered programming languages for the index. ... The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search engines. The search query that is used is +language programming WE know Perl is a programming language, and yes, the important words are on the page, but they are NOT in the title, and they are NOT in the name of the page. These criteria are also used by Google for deciding how to rank search results by relevance. The knock-on effect of this omission could be inestimably high. Looking down our noses and saying WE don't need to disambiguate because WE know what we mean, (capitals are mine), is all very well, and I for one understand that there is no NEED for us to disambiguate Perl the programming language. However, the question is probably better put as to whether we would like to explicitly associate Perl and programming language whenever Wikipedia and Google and Yahoo and Facebook and blablabla are searched, perhaps by stupid robots, or even by blissfully ignorant people. It's not about what we deem necessary to our usage of what is clearly the best programming language on the planet, it's about what we can do to raise Perl's profile out there, right now, and for future generations. -- Ciao Richard Foley http://www.rfi.net/books.html On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 09:19:33AM +, Dave Cross wrote: Quoting Richard Foley richard.fo...@rfi.net: We need people with voting facilities (accounts) on Wikipedia to vot up Perl. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Perl#Move_to_.22Perl_.28programming_language.29.22 The proposal here seems to be to rename the Wikipedia article Perl to Perl (Programming Language). I don't agree with the proposal. If there's no need for disambiguation then none should be used. Dave...
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
Quoting Richard Foley richard.fo...@rfi.net: Looking down our noses and saying WE don't need to disambiguate because WE know what we mean, (capitals are mine), is all very well, and I for one understand that there is no NEED for us to disambiguate Perl the programming language. However, the question is probably better put as to whether we would like to explicitly associate Perl and programming language whenever Wikipedia and Google and Yahoo and Facebook and blablabla are searched, perhaps by stupid robots, or even by blissfully ignorant people. It's not about what we deem necessary to our usage of what is clearly the best programming language on the planet, it's about what we can do to raise Perl's profile out there, right now, and for future generations. I understand all of that. But you're asking Wikipedia to break its own rules on naming pages in order to suit you. I don't agree with that. In English, there is one meaning of the word Perl that stands head and shoulders above any others. Therefore, under Wikipedia's rules, the page about that meaning should simply be called Perl. No matter what SEO benefits we might get, the Perl community should respect Wikipedia's rules on this. Dave...
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
I understand what you mean here, but there is room to wriggle. Firstly is Wikipedia's own rulings on disambiguation and page titles: There are generally three methods employed to avoid using an ambiguous title: Natural disambiguation: If it exists, choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. Do not, however, use obscure or made-up names. Example: The word English commonly refers to either the people or the language. Because of the ambiguity, we use the alternative but still common titles, English language and English people, allowing natural disambiguation. In a similar vein, mechanical fan and hand fan are preferable to fan (mechanical) and fan (implement). Parenthetical disambiguation: If natural disambiguation is not possible, add a disambiguating term in parentheses, after the ambiguous name. Example: The word mercury has distinct meanings that do not have sufficiently common alternative names, so we use instead parenthetical disambiguation: Mercury (element), Mercury (mythology), and Mercury (planet). Comma-separated disambiguation. With place names, if the disambiguating term is a higher-level administrative division, it is often separated using a comma instead of parentheses, as in Windsor, Berkshire (see Geographic names). Comma-separated disambiguation is sometimes also used in other contexts (e.g., Diana, Princess of Wales; see Names of royals and nobles). However, titles such as Tony Blair and Battle of Waterloo are preferred over alternatives such as Blair, Anthony Charles Lynton and Waterloo, Battle of, in which a comma is used to change the natural ordering of the words. Secondly, I don't think anyone was suggesting we remove the Perl page from WP, rather that we make one the main page and the other point to it. In effect having both pages/solutions at once and having our cake and eating it too. -- Ciao Richard Foley http://www.rfi.net/books.html On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:42:45AM +, Dave Cross wrote: Quoting Richard Foley richard.fo...@rfi.net: Looking down our noses and saying WE don't need to disambiguate because WE know what we mean, (capitals are mine), is all very well, and I for one understand that there is no NEED for us to disambiguate Perl the programming language. However, the question is probably better put as to whether we would like to explicitly associate Perl and programming language whenever Wikipedia and Google and Yahoo and Facebook and blablabla are searched, perhaps by stupid robots, or even by blissfully ignorant people. It's not about what we deem necessary to our usage of what is clearly the best programming language on the planet, it's about what we can do to raise Perl's profile out there, right now, and for future generations. I understand all of that. But you're asking Wikipedia to break its own rules on naming pages in order to suit you. I don't agree with that. In English, there is one meaning of the word Perl that stands head and shoulders above any others. Therefore, under Wikipedia's rules, the page about that meaning should simply be called Perl. No matter what SEO benefits we might get, the Perl community should respect Wikipedia's rules on this. Dave...
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On Wed, 2013-03-20 at 13:08 +0100, Richard Foley wrote: Secondly, I don't think anyone was suggesting we remove the Perl page from WP, rather that we make one the main page and the other point to it. In effect having both pages/solutions at once and having our cake and eating it too. Not quite; Perl (programming language) currently redirects to Perl. The proposal is to reverse that.
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
Speaking for myself, I'm not actually in favour of the rename, I just happen to think it is a proposal which has some very serious merit, with regard to promoting the Perl programming language in the wider world. I know what Perl is and I don't need any such change. In fact I quite like to see an unambiguous page on Wikipedia which says quite simply Perl. It's very flattering for me to be using this highly unambiguous and instantly recognizable language. Larry made a great choice for name, and a great choice for style (which is why we all like the language so much). I don't think the proposal is actually because people are confused by the name in any way, shape or form. Nobody is proposing changing the interpreter name to something like: perl_the_programming_language. We're talking about a web page title/name. For Perl to remain in the top half of the game, we need to promote it, we need to engage PR thinking to push the name into the minds of the people who make corporate decisions as to which language to use to fix what problems. I am a Perl advocate, but saying I like Perl and I know that I like Perl and everyone I know knows that I like Perl just doesn't make any difference, out there. The proposed Wikipedia name change is (if I understand it correctly) simply designed to promote Perl to a wider audience, both now and in the future. 'nuff said. -- Ciao Richard Foley http://www.rfi.net/books.html On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:18:35PM +, Smylers wrote: It honestly didn't occur to me a Perl advocate would be in favour of the rename.)
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
Quoting Richard Foley richard.fo...@rfi.net: I understand what you mean here, but there is room to wriggle. I don't want room to wriggle here. I don't want the Perl community resorting to borderline underhand SEO tactics. I want us to follow the spirit of the Wikipedia rules, not just the letter. Secondly, I don't think anyone was suggesting we remove the Perl page from WP, rather that we make one the main page and the other point to it. In effect having both pages/solutions at once and having our cake and eating it too. That what we currently have. Perl (Programming Language) is a redirect to Perl. That's how it should be. The proposal is to reverse the direction of the redirection - so Perl redirects to Perl (Programming Language). That is contrary to the way that Wikipedia is supposed to work. Dave...
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 04:58:38PM +0800, AJ Dhaliwal wrote: Good points. I wonder about node.js. JS was designed to be a scripting language. Aren't they pushing it too far with node.js? So was perl, but it seems to do OK. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic Suffer the little children to come unto me, as their buying habits are most easily influenced. -- Marketroid Jesus
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:30:24PM +0100, Richard Foley wrote: I think the original proposer is suggesting that it has more to do with one of the many things we might be able to do to help to raise the perception of Perl in the wider world. Tiobe rankings aren't something that Wikipedia should care about though. If you want to argue for adding (programming language) to the page title, then you need to argue that the default page for perl should be the disambiguation page because it makes more sense for the categorisation of knowledge. Comparing it to the situation with python on wikipedia, for which the default Python page *is* the disambiguation page, there are a *lot* more things called Python, many of which are probably at least as commonly searched for as the programming language is. I'm not convinced that that is the case for Perl, and expect that a large majority of users searching for perl actually mean the language, not the place (or the people). Compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_(disambiguation) For python, I knew about the type of snake, the mythological snake, the poet, the programming language, the revolver, the film, the comedians, and the aircraft engine. For perl, the only reason that I know about the place is because ooh look, a place with the same name as a programming language, how funny and, errm, that's it. -- David Cantrell | top google result for topless karaoke murders The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary -- H. L. Mencken
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On 20/03/2013 13:05, Dave Cross wrote: Secondly, I don't think anyone was suggesting we remove the Perl page from WP, rather that we make one the main page and the other point to it. In effect having both pages/solutions at once and having our cake and eating it too. That what we currently have. Perl (Programming Language) is a redirect to Perl. That's how it should be. The proposal is to reverse the direction of the redirection - so Perl redirects to Perl (Programming Language). That is contrary to the way that Wikipedia is supposed to work. c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C++ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript All programming languages that don't feel the need to say so in the primary URL. Why should we feel the need to pander to those languages that foolishly picked a common word as their name ? It ain't broke - no need to fix it. S.
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
underhand is a little harsh... -- Ciao Richard Foley http://www.rfi.net/books.html On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 01:05:36PM +, Dave Cross wrote: I don't want the Perl community resorting to borderline underhand SEO tactics. I want us to follow the spirit of the Wikipedia rules, not just the letter.
A stranger arrives in town ...
Perl friends, I am planning a rare (for me) transatlantic crossing to participate in the 2013 Perl QA Hackathon, to be held in Lancaster Fri-Sun, Apr 12-14. I'm going to prepend that with some pure vacation days, some or all of which will be spent in London. I would like to have the opportunity of attending my first London.pm social meeting during that stay. I'll be arriving LHR on the morning of Sat Apr 6 and staying in London at least through the morning of Tue Apr 9. (I don't have to be in Lancaster until the evening of Thu Apr 11.) Is there a designated Emergency Social Meeting Technician (ESMT) who could make some arrangements? S/he can contact me off-list as needed at the sending email address. I'm also following #london.pm, though that's mostly after midnight London time. Thank you very much. Jim Keenan (irc: kid51)
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On 20/03/13 19:13, Richard Foley wrote: I think perhaps you meant JUST a scripting language, with the implied aloofness intact ;-) AFAIK JS was first created to manipulate the HTML DOM. Then Microsoft invented AJAX and that is what really pushed JS into the limelight. So JS had a very limited defined role as scripting language in its beginning. Maybe JUST a scripting language is not too far off a description. Perl on the other hand was born with UNIX and had a sordid past tied to the guts of this system. Its role was relatively much wider than JS. And its potential. On a more important note I have ascertained that David Cantrell is REALLY the top google result for topless karaoke murders. I just remembered that Mozilla uses JS for their chrome so I may have just invalidated my first sentence. It will take too much trouble to change it so better just leave it there. On yet another note...Its interesting that languages have to marketed like other products. Quoting Steve Yegge (https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel) The problem with Java is that people are blinded by the marketing hype. That's the problem with C++, with Perl, with any language that's popular, and it's a serious one, because languages can't become popular /without/ hype. So if the language designer suggests innocently that the language might not have been designed perfectly, it's time to shoot the language designer full of horse tranquilizers and shut down the conference. Languages need hype to survive; I just wish people didn't have to be /blinded/ by it.
Re: Raising Perl awareness on Tiobe + Wikipedia, etc.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: Quoting Richard Foley richard.fo...@rfi.net: I understand what you mean here, but there is room to wriggle. I don't want room to wriggle here. I don't want the Perl community resorting to borderline underhand SEO tactics. I want us to follow the spirit of the Wikipedia rules, not just the letter. But... but... there's more than one way to do this! *ducks and covers*
