Re: Candidates' attitudes
At 26/11/2002 11:00 [], Dave Hodgkinson wrote: On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 10:50, Alex McLintock wrote: > I don't know the details of this case - I don't even have a working IRC > client yet (I went to RedHat.com using lynx/links and couldn't even find a > command line IRC client) - but any leader of any group should think twice > about being rude or abrasive at any time. It reflects badly on the rest of > the group. xchat isn't a console client, but still probably the best of the GUI clients. bitchx ircii neither of these are worth using unless you have configs which you don't want to convert. Without wanting to start a holy war, irssi seems like a much better choice for a new user. /joel -- S. Joel Bernstein :: joel at fysh dot org :: t: 020 8458 2323 "Nobody is going to claim that Perl 6's OO is "bolted on". Well, except maybe for certain Slashdotters who don't know the difference between rational discussion and cheerleading..." -- Larry Wall
Re: Candidates' attitudes
On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 10:50, Alex McLintock wrote: > I don't know the details of this case - I don't even have a working IRC > client yet (I went to RedHat.com using lynx/links and couldn't even find a > command line IRC client) - but any leader of any group should think twice > about being rude or abrasive at any time. It reflects badly on the rest of > the group. xchat bitchx ircii
Re: Candidates' attitudes
On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:10:43AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> My final thought: can't someone just clone Dave (Cross) for the new leader? > We did but Dave(2) isn't out of nappies yet. heh - people always forget that cloning involves birth and growing up... ;-) -- Natalie S. Ford . [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.natalie.ourshack.org .. http://natalief.livejournal.com
Re: Candidates' attitudes
At 23:56 25/11/02, Greg McCarroll wrote: The inaccuracies with people's perceived characters on the IRC channel is the root of a problem typical of a lot of ``online social groups''. The representations on IRC, mailing lists or on a MMORPG can be distorted shadows of the real person. In other words, if these people said the sorts of things they did on IRC in a pub[1] they would walk home with their teeth in a bag. I consider myself an old hand when it comes to instant messaging since I used (probably) the first IRC server in the UK something like 13 years ago. I left IRC because work conditions didn't really allow it, came back to IRC briefly to keep in touch with "new" college friends who seemed to live online. However I left again partly due to this thing that Greg is talking about. People's online personalities don't always match their real life personalities. It is the reason why I usually use my real name as an id (or at least alexmc which isn't too far away from my real name). I want people to associate my online behaviour with me. I don't want to have two personalities. I'm not saying that other people shouldn't like smoking, it is something I would prefer people not to do, but I am not going to try banning it. But we shouldn't start forgiving people for being rude just because they are online. I don't know the details of this case - I don't even have a working IRC client yet (I went to RedHat.com using lynx/links and couldn't even find a command line IRC client) - but any leader of any group should think twice about being rude or abrasive at any time. It reflects badly on the rest of the group. My example of this is that I have a particularly bad opinion of the London Linux User Group - NOT because I've met them, but the online contacts I've made didn't impress me with their politeness or consideration. Don't let London.pm go the same way. Alex McLintock Openweb Analysts Ltd, London. Software For Complex Websites http://www.OWAL.co.uk/ Open Source Software Companies please register here http://www.OWAL.co.uk/oss_support/
Re: Candidates' attitudes
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My final thought: can't someone just clone Dave (Cross) for the new leader? We did but Dave(2) isn't out of nappies yet. Wow! An in-kernel Dave - funky! -Dom -- | Semantico: creators of major online resources | | URL: http://www.semantico.com/ | | Tel: +44 (1273) 72 | | Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |
Re: Candidates' attitudes [or why are you all "op'd"]
On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 09:46, Paul Mison wrote: > On 26/11/2002 at 00:44 +, Dirk Koopman wrote: > > >As a matter of interest, having just become a #london.pm virgin this > >evening, why is [nearly] everybody op'd? > > So we can set the topic, mainly. And as mutually asssured destruction > if anyone goes nuts. > > >Is the fact that a newbie isn't > >an op part of the problem? What is going on here? > > We need to find out who you are. If you'd said 'Hello, I'm Dirk, I've > been active on list' you're more likely to be opped than if you > appear and start asking about k-lines. (People online on the morning > of Tuesday 4th June, when someone connected to rhizomatic and > unleashed a flood of clonebots, may remember what's wrong with that > one.) [0] K-lines? Moi? > > Once the channel is convinced you are who you say you are, and that > you're not going to go mad, you'll get ops on a per-session basis or, > once you're fully trusted, via the opbot(s). > > This should probably be worked into > http://london.pm.org/about/irc.html along with a warning that we're a > bit... less tolerant, perhaps, as a rule, on the IRC channel. Umm... yes, I think that would be an excellent idea. It might save some confusion (as well as unnecessary heat) on here if the ground rules were spelled out. > > [0] As a side note, assuming we'll read your real name out of /whois > probably isn't enough. You may as well do the introduction too. Assuming I am actually bothered, which I am probably not. There are one or two people that I know (and who know me, viz: Mr Wetters and Ginger Dave) and that's about it. Op me if you like or not... it's cool, whatever... I am not sufficiently into IRC to really care one way or the other. I use it purely to communicate and keep up to date with the latest gossip. I was just interested, that's all... Dirk -- Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
Re: Candidates' attitudes [or why are you all "op'd"]
On 26/11/2002 at 00:44 +, Dirk Koopman wrote: As a matter of interest, having just become a #london.pm virgin this evening, why is [nearly] everybody op'd? So we can set the topic, mainly. And as mutually asssured destruction if anyone goes nuts. Is the fact that a newbie isn't an op part of the problem? What is going on here? We need to find out who you are. If you'd said 'Hello, I'm Dirk, I've been active on list' you're more likely to be opped than if you appear and start asking about k-lines. (People online on the morning of Tuesday 4th June, when someone connected to rhizomatic and unleashed a flood of clonebots, may remember what's wrong with that one.) [0] Once the channel is convinced you are who you say you are, and that you're not going to go mad, you'll get ops on a per-session basis or, once you're fully trusted, via the opbot(s). This should probably be worked into http://london.pm.org/about/irc.html along with a warning that we're a bit... less tolerant, perhaps, as a rule, on the IRC channel. [0] As a side note, assuming we'll read your real name out of /whois probably isn't enough. You may as well do the introduction too. -- :: paul :: we're like crystal
Re: Candidates' attitudes
On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:20:35AM +, Paul Makepeace wrote: > Paul (can you tell I'd rather people were generally nice to each other?) Wuss! You're no fun! -- Lusercop.net - LARTing Lusers everywhere since 2002
Re: Candidates' attitudes [or why are you all "op'd"]
> As a matter of interest, having just become a #london.pm virgin this > evening, why is [nearly] everybody op'd? Is the fact that a newbie isn't > an op part of the problem? What is going on here? [for the absence of > FUD, this is an "I am interested" not a "why wasn't I IMMEDIATELY made > op" flamefest question]. The simple answer is: because we don't need to worry about losing the channel. More than one server op resides on the channel, and at least one of them is a server op on a usefully hacked ircd that allows them to do all kinds of mumbo jumbo. Additionally, This Is Not EFNet - channel takeovers on MagNET (the name of the IRC net on which #london.pm resides) are fairly rare. The other answer is because (as someone pointed out a little earlier in this thread) 'most everyone is known by someone else in real life, which injects enough sanity to normally stop people abusing their ops. Well, that's how I see it anyway +Pete
Re: Candidates' attitudes
* Paul Makepeace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > However, assuming not everyone is an actor (Shakespeare's observations > aside) that behavior *is* part of who they are. Given that there are My theory is that the ``annoying'' or ``rude'' bit of their personality will not come out when they have leaderly duties to perform. The rest of the time I don't care what they do. Greg -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.org.uk/~gem/ jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Candidates' attitudes
On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 11:56:30PM +, Greg McCarroll said: > Of course not everyone suffers from this, Leon and Lucy spring to mind > as two people who transfer their personality well to IRC. However two > of the candidates are perhaps perceived extremely incorrectly by > people who do not know them personally, namely, David and Richard Also Paul can be very, errm, pessimistic? bitter? humbuggy? on IRC but, IMO anyway, has been an excellent leader of mongers and herder of cats through what has actually been a fairly odd time for this group. As Greg said IRC!=Life London.pm has been going for nearly 5 years now and I think it's safe to say that it's been excpetionally successful. One can measure this in three ways - 1. The 'old guard' are still around 2. There is plenty of young blood (fresh meat, BRANES) 3. It has achieved an awful lot (for start we currently contribute approximately 5% of CPAN) I am alos on an Information Architects mailing list which has recently had a very bitter and personal flame war. Like Perl there are several luminaries in the field who speak at all the conferences, write all the books and who are cited in papers. These movers and shakers recently started up a subscription based institute of Information Architecture (http://www.aifia.org/). This sparked a flame war. I can't remember the exact reason but the feeling of one side was that there was a clique running the IA world (which seems to be much smaller than the Perl world) and that this was unhealthy. Things got personal. My perception was that the root of the problem was that people didn't feel that the institute or the cabal were doing bad things per se, it was more that they felt that there was never any chance for them to become part of the cabal. Or atleast have an affect on the direction of the profession. I hope that Perl in general and London.pm in particular don't have this problem and, from my point of view, it doesn't seem like they do although I'd be interested to hear (off list if desired) if people do feel that way. This post has kind of gone nowhere. I'll shut up now. Simon
Re: Candidates' attitudes [or why are you all "op'd"]
On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 00:20, Paul Makepeace wrote: > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 11:56:30PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > The inaccuracies with people's perceived characters on the IRC channel > > is the root of a problem typical of a lot of ``online social groups''. > > The representations on IRC, mailing lists or on a MMORPG can be > > distorted shadows of the real person. In other words, if these people > > said the sorts of things they did on IRC in a pub[1] they would walk > > home with their teeth in a bag. As a matter of interest, having just become a #london.pm virgin this evening, why is [nearly] everybody op'd? Is the fact that a newbie isn't an op part of the problem? What is going on here? [for the absence of FUD, this is an "I am interested" not a "why wasn't I IMMEDIATELY made op" flamefest question]. Dirk -- Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
Re: Candidates' attitudes
On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 11:56:30PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > The inaccuracies with people's perceived characters on the IRC channel > is the root of a problem typical of a lot of ``online social groups''. > The representations on IRC, mailing lists or on a MMORPG can be > distorted shadows of the real person. In other words, if these people > said the sorts of things they did on IRC in a pub[1] they would walk > home with their teeth in a bag. The question from sociologists and probably anyone who finds this kind of behaviour obnoxious, irritating, belittling and demeaning is: why do these people do this? > London.pm you might suspect is immune to this misperception as it is > corrected at the technical meetings and social meetings. However I > believe that a lot of people fall into caricatures of themselves > mainly at social meetings and perhaps sometimes even at technical > meetings and so even then you do not see the real people. > > Of course not everyone suffers from this, Leon and Lucy spring to mind > as two people who transfer their personality well to IRC. However two > of the candidates are perhaps perceived extremely incorrectly by > people who do not know them personally, namely, David and Richard. For another perspective, They are IMO different perceptions, not incorrect perceptions. Every interaction that someone has with someone else defines some part of that person. To say that IRC is somehow a distortion of that person suggests to me their online behavior is a facade or a sham or not representative of who they are. However, assuming not everyone is an actor (Shakespeare's observations aside) that behavior *is* part of who they are. Given that there are nearly 300 people on this list and presumably only a fraction of that have met particular people in person chances are most of most people's interactions are online, and *that's* whom they see, and to all intents and purposes that's who they are. Regardless of what they're like or not like in person the fact is, if someone gets bawled out on channel guess how that'll make them feel and how much respect for that other person they'll now have. It'd be a shame if someone otherwise pleasant in person and capable of doing a job were to destroy their reputation and community respect by their tone online. "The meaning of communication is the response you get." , Paul (can you tell I'd rather people were generally nice to each other?) -- Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/ "If I pray, I will find, then the combine harvester would work its magic." -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/
Re: Candidates' attitudes
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > My final thought: can't someone just clone Dave (Cross) for the new leader? We did but Dave(2) isn't out of nappies yet. aef
Re: Candidates' attitudes
* S. Joel Bernstein ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Do the candidates for leader feel that their attitudes and behaviour to new > people in the irc channel are in line with the office of leader? The inaccuracies with people's perceived characters on the IRC channel is the root of a problem typical of a lot of ``online social groups''. The representations on IRC, mailing lists or on a MMORPG can be distorted shadows of the real person. In other words, if these people said the sorts of things they did on IRC in a pub[1] they would walk home with their teeth in a bag. London.pm you might suspect is immune to this misperception as it is corrected at the technical meetings and social meetings. However I believe that a lot of people fall into caricatures of themselves mainly at social meetings and perhaps sometimes even at technical meetings and so even then you do not see the real people. Of course not everyone suffers from this, Leon and Lucy spring to mind as two people who transfer their personality well to IRC. However two of the candidates are perhaps perceived extremely incorrectly by people who do not know them personally, namely, David and Richard. Richard and David, i believe, are both perhaps perceived as BOFH characters and that is a role they sometimes play, however they are much more than that. Richard is one of the most thoughtful, gentle and considerate people in London.pm and David is one of the most generous, fair and contemplative(/considerative)[2] people in London.pm And lastly while this defense was not for him, it is only fair that I highlight Mark's good qualities. Mark is one of the most warm, enthusiastic and accomodating people in London.pm. So maybe before you vote, take a moment to make sure you are not voting for richardc, DrHyde or Trelane, but for Richard, Dave or Mark. HTH, YMMV, Greg [1] And I'm not talking about a pub in Islington which has a special on midori and lemonade that night (as long as you order a side of sun blushed tomato salad). ;-) [2] I was looking for a word here for a person who thinks of a lot of the various options before commiting to an action. -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.org.uk/~gem/ jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Candidates' attitudes
On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:26:57PM +, Richard Clamp wrote: [snippety snip] > > */ I think $candidate is a rude bastard on irc. I won't be voting for > him, and neither should you. > > I think you might have someone in mind here :) > > Of course it's entirely your vote, to spend as you wish. I must say > though, if you're hoping for a candidate who can't possibly insult > anyone in any circumstance, I think you're best off voting for RON. I don't think anyone would claim to be after some sort of holier than thou hybrid of Jesus Christ, Gandhi and Princess Diana (#3 on Great Britons poll). But having said that, isn't IRC all about insulting people that you wouldn't do in real life for fear of a smack in the face? My final thought: can't someone just clone Dave (Cross) for the new leader? Right, back to lurking, 2 messages in 6 months takes it out of me.
Re: Candidates' attitudes
On Monday, Nov 25, 2002, at 14:30 Europe/London, S. Joel Bernstein wrote: Do the candidates for leader feel that their attitudes and behaviour to new people in the irc channel are in line with the office of leader? Today we were visited by a new face, who has been active recently on the mailing list. Perhaps by virtue of some fault of their own, but probably due to the prevailing attitudes on the channel, some people were pretty rude to the new person. One of those people is standing for leader of London.PM. My question is this: Is such rudeness appropriate, and is such an attitude what we are looking for in a leader? I must say that I would find it extremely difficult to vote for somebody with such an abrasive personality, regardless of their technical skills. We aren't looking for a project manager, we're looking for somebody who will arrange social events and be (where necessary) the public face of the London Perl M[ou]ngers. Just my tuppence. Since your tuppence seems awfully unclear I'm going to paraphrase what I think you're really trying to say in several ways, each of them in my own completely biased way, and then answer those questions. */ What is the role of the groups leader when it comes to irc? */ (Could|should) there be a set of guidelines for the #london.pm, as there already are for the mailing list? */ I think $candidate is a rude bastard on irc. I won't be voting for him, and neither should you. Now that I've stacked the deck, here are my answers (they may fit the questions rather well, but I can't quite put my finger on why...) */ What is the role of the groups leader when it comes to irc? I think pretty much the same as on the mailing list, to listen and ask the right questions (and yes, I do believe that the right question is sometimes "would you kindly shut the fuck up") It's worth bearing in mind that #london.pm is only one aspect of the Dancing Monkey Machine which is London.pm, and that the leader is a member too and as such gets to be as irrational as the rest of the monkeys. */ (Could|should) there be a set of guidelines for the #london.pm, as there already are for the mailing list? This depends largely on the existing users of the channel. Certainly the pages on london.pm.org could stand to have a few general pointers to irc behaviour likely to annoy, what passes for top-posting in irc for example, to enable smoother integration of the new with the existing users of the channel (who at last count seem to account for 40-odd connected users). Oh, I just thought of a sub-question. Who plays channel-admin to enforce any guidelines? It's a much different role from list-admin, or even list-mom, since there's no subscription system; plus there seems to be less encouragement for people to lurk before contributing to the channel often resulting in culture-clash. */ I think $candidate is a rude bastard on irc. I won't be voting for him, and neither should you. I think you might have someone in mind here :) Of course it's entirely your vote, to spend as you wish. I must say though, if you're hoping for a candidate who can't possibly insult anyone in any circumstance, I think you're best off voting for RON. Before I finish I want to pull out one particularly odd statement: I must say that I would find it extremely difficult to vote for somebody with such an abrasive personality, regardless of their technical skills. We aren't looking for a project manager, we're looking for somebody who will arrange social events and be (where necessary) the public face of the London Perl M[ou]ngers. Appointing a project manager as leader would be a fine idea, and I think you're doing many project managers a big disservice if you think they're low on interpersonal skills. -- Richard Clamp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Candidates' attitudes
Do the candidates for leader feel that their attitudes and behaviour to new people in the irc channel are in line with the office of leader? Today we were visited by a new face, who has been active recently on the mailing list. Perhaps by virtue of some fault of their own, but probably due to the prevailing attitudes on the channel, some people were pretty rude to the new person. One of those people is standing for leader of London.PM. My question is this: Is such rudeness appropriate, and is such an attitude what we are looking for in a leader? I must say that I would find it extremely difficult to vote for somebody with such an abrasive personality, regardless of their technical skills. We aren't looking for a project manager, we're looking for somebody who will arrange social events and be (where necessary) the public face of the London Perl M[ou]ngers. Just my tuppence. /rataxis -- S. Joel Bernstein :: joel at fysh dot org :: t: 020 8458 2323 "Nobody is going to claim that Perl 6's OO is "bolted on". Well, except maybe for certain Slashdotters who don't know the difference between rational discussion and cheerleading..." -- Larry Wall
