Re: Latin translation
Gimme a break, Mat, Did you really have to show off that you can actually read the details, wasn't enough that I pointed out that it appeared to be a normal flowery dedication to the patron? Very Big Grin. My compliments to one who yet remembers his declensions and cases without having to back to the book - you hadn't the time to do that. But I'll challenge you on reading Gaelic (and I do have to go to the book). But how did you pick off Brescia as the name of the town, with the number of changes in town names over the centuries I would have thought it could be almost anywhere. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Latin translation To my most illustrious and venerable lord, the lord Christophorus Madrucius, Cardinal and Prince of Trient and adminstrator of Brescia, my most dear lord It was an old farmers' custom, most illustrious Prince, to spend the first fruits to those Deities who would take care for them, as was supposed, in order to bear witness to the farmers' piety toward the Deities by such a deed. In imitation of that fashion, I have wished to dedicate these little fruits of my labours to you. For this, I have no other reason than to show obedience and loyalty of an attendant, who has long been dependent on you. Furthermore, I have reckoned it timely to offer to you something which, I thought, might please and attract you. Such is the music whose art and students you have always favoured and nourished, knowing that among other famous ornaments which pertain to the enlightenment of a Prince, the study of music must not be despised. As regards the days when it was highly esteemed in ancient Greece, particularly music of stringed instruments with changing strikes of melody, it is known that commandments regarding music were not less hallowed than those regarding nutrition or personal hygiene. Plato held music necessary for general welfare. Lycurgus, himself a very wise legislator, judged that military exercises cannot be appropiately conducted without musical melodies. For these reasons I hope that you will accept my merry play. Although it may be very light, under your protection it will nevertheless seem more sober and honourable and will achieve great influence from your fabulous reputation and will therefore perhaps be proved and endorsed, being adorned and protected by your name against the stings of critics. Furthermore it will be a proof of your education that these little things will be measured not by its matial shape but by its intellectual contents. For even to king Artaxerxes a bottle of dirty water, that a farmer had brought him in deep devotion, was most pleasurable and welcome. - Farewell! Gintzler 1547. Hope that will help, Gøran. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holding the baroque lute
Taking your tongue in cheek seriously for the moment, I'll say that we on the harp have let ourselves go electronic. We use electronic tuners with mic pickups to tune. And those can use an earphone output. Not that I distrust my ear, I can still tune all 52 strings of my harp with an A fork and my ear, but it does take a lot longer as one makes the minor adjustment back and forth. My ear is still better than the tuner, but it gets you into the range at all octaves. And fifty years ago I pressed my ear to my guitar to tune in a noisy environment. Best, Jon
Re: Latin translation
brixen = bressanone (ancient = pressena...) south tyrol in italy is bilingual german/italian Dr. Wolfgang Wiehe Zentrales Analytisches Labor BTU-Cottbus []\ (_) www.zal.tu-cottbus.de
[no subject]
Hello Christopher, sorry , I should explain better, I want books ON the lute, but now that you mencioned I´d like to know where I find socores too! Thank you
Sloane 1021
Dear Arthur, it is nice of you, that you mentioned my opinion, that the lute tablature in British Library, Ms Sloane 1021, has been incorrectly attributed to Johannes Stobaeus. To be frank I would like to state, that I am not the only person, and definitely not the first one, who realised that the traditional attribution to Stobaeus is not correct. Best regards, Peter- Peter Király Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Latin translation
Dear Paolo, [DEL:I would like to suggest that the correct= family name of the cardinal :DEL] [DEL:is not Madruzzi or Madruzzo, but Madruzz= a (I have personal :DEL] [DEL: aquaintenace with the family) :DEL] You might be right, but as far I recollect in musicological stu= dies the Cardinal is called usually as Madruzzo. I made a short check, and it seems indeed, tha= t at least for him the name 'Madruzzo' is used. Best regards, Peter Király- Peter Király Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Brazil
Hello everybody, my name´s Leonardo and I´m from Brazil. I play classical guitar and I´d like to know more about the lute, can you please tell me some good books about the subject? Thank you! History of the Lute by D. A. Smith. http://www.mclasen.com/LuteHistory/ -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: Languages and strings
Dear Arto and All: Could this also be the source of the Gaelic word ceilidh, meaning music party? I would be surprised if there weren't at least a few Finnish words in the English language. English seems to have stolen words from everybody else. Yours, Jim Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roman Turovsky i.fi [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute Net 11/04/2003 03:59 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AM Subject: Languages and strings Please respond to wikla Dear Jon, you wrote: I assume, Arto, that when you refer to the difference between Italian and Spanish in the context of language, that you mean a difference among the Just that a Finnish speaker and an Estonian speaker understand each other as much as an Italian speaker and a Spanish speaker. Actually I suppose Finnish and Estonian are a bit more different than Italian and Spanish. But I do think there is no Finno-Urgic in English, It might be wrong, but I have heard that the word boy would come from Swedish/Scandinavish word pojke, which would come from the Finnish word poika. They all have the same meaning. and no one has answered me on the Basque. Is that of that Finno family? Or is it another separate language. Basque is certainly not Fenno-Ugrian language!! I guess some Indo-Europeans just have heard something they do not understand at all, and they thought those languages must have something in common: their un-understability...;-) All this is quit off from lutes. So here is something to come back: In Finnish the word language, tongue, and STRING are all kieli! So a lute string is luutun kieli, English language is englannin kieli, and cat's tongue is kissan kieli. String instrument is kielisoitin, etc. Arto
right arm motion - thumb under
I've been reviewing my thumb under technique and wanted to get some opinions. I was taught to anchor the rh pinky and then use a little right arm motion when playing runs, triplet or dotted eighth passages. I was reviewing Besard's piece in The Varietie of Lute Lessons, and he seems to suggest that only the fingers and joints should be moving, not the arm. I've also noticed that runs are cleaner with less arm motion. I play with relaxed tip joints, and this seems to also be more effective with less arm motion. Maybe I'm just psyching myslef out? Any thoughts on the role of the right arm with thumb under technique. Any references to historical docs? What were you taught. Thanks. = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
right arm motion - thumb under
I've been reviewing my thumb under technique and wanted to get some opinions. I was taught to anchor the rh pinky and then use a little right arm motion when playing runs, triplet or dotted eighth passages. I was reviewing Besard's piece in The Varietie of Lute Lessons, and he seems to suggest that only the fingers and joints should be moving, not the arm. I've also noticed that runs are cleaner with less arm motion. I play with relaxed tip joints, and this seems to also be more effective with less arm motion. Maybe I'm just psyching myslef out? Any thoughts on the role of the right arm with thumb under technique. Any references to historical docs? What were you taught. Thanks. = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: right arm motion - thumb under
Dear Christopher, besides any historical consideration, you'll see two very good and very different modern players using right arm motion while playing divisions: Paul O' Dette, and Hoppy. The reason why I do it and would recommend it is that, even willing to use just the fingers to pluck, you would have to move your arm to lead them to the right place (course). There's no way you can play some very difficult pieces (fast runs from the 1st to 6th course) without moving your arm... at least if you play thumb under. Also, after a bit of work, using the arm allows us to obtain a much more lighter and vocal diminutions, and a wide dynamic range, which is harder to obtain only using the fingers (the sound tends to be tight in my experience, even when you have the tip joints relaxed-which is great). Best, Ariel.
Re: Why was the K'berg MS stolen? (Was Re: Koenigsberg Manuscript
Mathias, I was going to post this to the group, but I've posted too much already. Thought you'd be interesed, though. Arthur. Mathias wrotefirst time I've been called Mat. I like it, though :) Titles are of some importance in Austria. There, it is a matter of politeness to correctly _use_ them when addressing a person. My 80ish landlady when I was a student in Munich was called Frau Dr. Olga Traumann. But she had no academic degree beyond what must have been a finishing school education. There was a picture of her on the wall on a horse leaping over some rails, but was living in poverty when I took a room with her. She had had a distinguished career as a piano accompanist. She still gave voice and piano lessons, and at first I slept on a pad under her Steinweg concert grand, and had to give up my room when she gave lessons. There were 6 or 7 sturents living there. Her father had been captain of the guards to the Austrian Emperor, and ocassionaly a Hapsburg who lived in Munich would visit her for afternoon tea. (He had the Hapsburg chin.) His brother would have been emperor if Austria had continued with royalty. I think she must have had some kind of aristocratic bearing, because people always defered to her. I remember some waiters in tuxedos clicking their heels, bowing and scraping when they served her coffee and sweet cakes in a hotel restaurant. No one else got that treatment. Someone told me that the title, Frau Dr., was the way one addressed an elderly woman who had accomplished much in life. -- Best wishes, Likewise, Arthur. Mathias
Arthur Robb
I just tried to visit Arthur Robb's web site at Argonet and got a 404 error. Has he moved his web site to another location? If so, does anyone have the url? Regards, Craig
Why was the K'berg MS stolen? (Was Re: Koenigsberg Manuscript
Arthur Ness wrote: Someone told me that the title, Frau Dr., was the way one addressed an elderly woman who had accomplished much in life. Frau Dr. is also used in Germany when the husband has the Dr. title. I have even heard Frau Prof. Dr. when the husband is also ordentlicher Professor. The wife adopts, so to say, the treatment of her husband. The formality has, nevertheless, changed a lot from the beginning of the 20th century till now. I remember very well how much it impressed me when I saw that young university students in Germany at the time around 1920 asked to each other using the Sie instead the Du. I learnt it reading the letters between Walter Benjamin and his very close friend Gerschom Scholem. Best regards, Manolo Laguillo Barcelona --
Sloane 1021
Peter Kiraly wrote it is nice of you, that you mentioned my opinion, that the lute tablature in British Library, Ms Sloane 1021, has been incorrectly attributed to Johannes Stobaeus. To be frank I would like to state, that I am not the only person, and definitely not the first one, who realised that the traditional attribution to Stobaeus is not correct. Yes, and that incorrect attributiuon still appears. Stobaeus was Kapellmeister in K'berg. That's one of the problems when persons with incomplete knowledge assign names to manuscripts of lute music. His name is squeezed into what was a small space on one of the last pages. There is a fairly good U.S. dissertation on Sloane 1021 (but mistitled): Donna May Arnold, The Lute Music and Related Writings in the Stammbuch of Johann Stobaeus (Ph.D. diss., North Texas State University, 1982; UMI # 8217612). Paul Madgewick in Munich wrote on one of these lists that a large cache of Stobaeus's music had been discovered in a German (non-muisc?) archive. The handwritings might shed further informsation about Sloane 1021. Arthur
FW: Languages and strings
English is stolen?!! I say James old chap, this is going a bit strong. We would rather believe the Vikings, Romans and Normans forced ( foisted?) them upon us. The English language is continually being diluted with words and phrases from all over the world, thanks to the continual invasion of TV!! BG Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: James A Stimson [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 November 2003 15:17 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jon Murphy; Lute Net; Stewart McCoy; Roman Turovsky Subject:Re: Languages and strings Dear Arto and All: Could this also be the source of the Gaelic word ceilidh, meaning music party? I would be surprised if there weren't at least a few Finnish words in the English language. English seems to have stolen words from everybody else. Yours, Jim Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roman Turovsky i.fi [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute Net 11/04/2003 03:59 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AM Subject: Languages and strings Please respond to wikla Dear Jon, you wrote: I assume, Arto, that when you refer to the difference between Italian and Spanish in the context of language, that you mean a difference among the Just that a Finnish speaker and an Estonian speaker understand each other as much as an Italian speaker and a Spanish speaker. Actually I suppose Finnish and Estonian are a bit more different than Italian and Spanish. But I do think there is no Finno-Urgic in English, It might be wrong, but I have heard that the word boy would come from Swedish/Scandinavish word pojke, which would come from the Finnish word poika. They all have the same meaning. and no one has answered me on the Basque. Is that of that Finno family? Or is it another separate language. Basque is certainly not Fenno-Ugrian language!! I guess some Indo-Europeans just have heard something they do not understand at all, and they thought those languages must have something in common: their un-understability...;-) All this is quit off from lutes. So here is something to come back: In Finnish the word language, tongue, and STRING are all kieli! So a lute string is luutun kieli, English language is englannin kieli, and cat's tongue is kissan kieli. String instrument is kielisoitin, etc. Arto
Re: Le Roy
Dear Craig, CNRS have published Oeuvres D'Adrian Le Roy - Les Instructions Pour Le Luth (1574) in two volumes. The first contains a modern edition (with some facsimilies from the original) of the 1574 English edition of A briefe and plaine Instruction to set all musicke of eight divers tunes in Tableture for the Lute. With a briefe Instruction how to play on the Lute by Tablature, to conduct and dispose thy hand unto the Lute, with certain easie lessons for that purpose. Volume two contains the anthology of intabulations that formed the third part of the original. The CNRS edition is dated 1977 and may, like their other volumes mentioned on the list recently, be out of print. Hopefully some of the larger music libraries will have copies. The instructions for intabulation are interesting, and those for lute playing are one of the best sources we have for 6 course technique. The intabulations, on the whole, are very difficult to play and not very exciting from the players point of view. If I remember correctly, the late Robert Spencer in his review of the book pointed out that they are better thought of as vehicle for lute players to experience the music rather than as performance repertoire. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: Le Roy Dear Scholars, Is there a copy (facsimile, transcription, whatever) of Adrian Le Roy's treatise on intabulation (1571) available somewhere? Regards, Craig
Council of Trent?
As an aside to Dr.Wolfgang Wiehe's interesting missive on Christopher Madruzzi, perhaps readers will be interested to know that Stewart McCoy and myself live fairly close to the River Trent. This flows through Nottingham in the centre of England and joins the River Humber, before flowing into the North Sea. Our water is supplied by Severn-Trent Water Authority and, our electrictity is produced at several power-stations along the Trent valley. Until a recent name change, we had a Trent Bus Company. Council of Trent? No, we have had no tax-bills from them! (and I have looked back a long way!) How are you doing Stewart? BG Best Wishes Ron (UK)
Re: Carbon Copies
CCs to the sender are an artifact of the absurd policy of making the return address the individual rather than the list. This should be fixed, but apparently the influential members of this list enjoy this chaos. Stewart McCoy wrote: Let's try again. Wayne's robot intercepted my last message. Dear All, There is no need to send a duplicate copy of a message to an individual who s*bscr*bes to the list. If he s*bscr*bes, he will receive the message as a s*bscr*ber. If he gets his own c.c. copy as well, he will receive the same message twice, which is unnecessary. Stewart McCoy. -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Re: Languages and strings
For what I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Basque's origin is not yet 100% clear. Any expert's opinion? Agur, Ariel. In fact it is 100% unclear. RT
Re: FW: Languages and strings
Ron wrote: English is stolen?!! I say James old chap, this is going a bit strong. We would rather believe the Vikings, Romans and Normans forced ( foisted?) them upon us. The English language is continually being diluted with words and phrases from all over the world, thanks to the continual invasion of TV!! English does not borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar. Linguistically, Craig
Gaultier scores
Hallo Thomas, Minkoff says CHF 45= EUR 60 approx. and also qui contiennent aussi des pièces du «vieux Gaultier». If hey had said les pièces I'd not rant as far as the price is concerned. Honestly, I have no idea of what was Ennemond's output and whether there are more pieces. Ignorant, as I stated before. I only like his Hoppy record and should like to play all of it. g As far as I know it's Minkoff - *very* expensive. Maybe there is a cheaper source by CNRS ...
Re: FW: Languages and strings
Dear Ron and All: I meant stolen in a nice way, the way a good jazz player steal riffs from those he admires. Yours, Jim Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED] world.com cc: Subject: FW: Languages and strings 11/04/2003 01:33 PM English is stolen?!! I say James old chap, this is going a bit strong. We would rather believe the Vikings, Romans and Normans forced ( foisted?) them upon us. The English language is continually being diluted with words and phrases from all over the world, thanks to the continual invasion of TV!! BG Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From:James A Stimson [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent:04 November 2003 15:17 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jon Murphy; Lute Net; Stewart McCoy; Roman Turovsky Subject: Re: Languages and strings Dear Arto and All: Could this also be the source of the Gaelic word ceilidh, meaning music party? I would be surprised if there weren't at least a few Finnish words in the English language. English seems to have stolen words from everybody else. Yours, Jim Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roman Turovsky i.fi [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute Net 11/04/2003 03:59 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AM Subject: Languages and strings Please respond to wikla Dear Jon, you wrote: I assume, Arto, that when you refer to the difference between Italian and Spanish in the context of language, that you mean a difference among the Just that a Finnish speaker and an Estonian speaker understand each other as much as an Italian speaker and a Spanish speaker. Actually I suppose Finnish and Estonian are a bit more different than Italian and Spanish. But I do think there is no Finno-Urgic in English, It might be wrong, but I have heard that the word boy would come from Swedish/Scandinavish word pojke, which would come from the Finnish word poika. They all have the same meaning. and no one has answered me on the Basque. Is that of that Finno family? Or is it another separate language. Basque is certainly not Fenno-Ugrian language!! I guess some Indo-Europeans just have heard something they do not understand at all, and they thought those languages must have something in common: their un-understability...;-) All this is quit off from lutes. So here is something to come back: In Finnish the word language, tongue, and STRING are all kieli! So a lute string is luutun kieli, English language is englannin kieli, and cat's tongue is kissan kieli. String instrument is kielisoitin, etc. Arto
La Magdalena
Dear all: Thank you for the answers about Novus Partus Another question, please, Does somebody by hand Attaignant-La Magdalena? I want to check that three notes that don't sound too well to my modern hearing are correct. I play on Wayne's intabulation. The notes are: - Basse dance, second line, third bar, last note in lower voice is it c on the 5th or on the 6th course? - Recoupe, second line, second bar, first note in upper voice is it c on the 1th or on the 2th course? - Tourdion, first line, fourth bar, last note in lower voice it is c on the 5th or on the 6th course? Thank you in advance. Best, Jose Luis
Re: CDs
- Original Message - From: Craig Hartley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 November 2003 09:27 Subject: CDs I have recently joined this list after falling in love with Weiss through attending a recital by Nigel North and then buying Robert Barto's Naxos series. At the moment I play only the Renaissance lute, but I have plans... I would be grateful if members of this list could recommend recordings of earlier Baroque lute music, as I want to get familiar with the French 17th-century repertoire etc before deciding which route to take. thanks in anticipation Craig _ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Dear Craig, Try Cathy Liddell's CD La belle voilée on Centaur CRC 2359 (1997). It's mostly Gallot, but an excellent introduction to this style of music. Best wishes, Martin
Re: CDs
Anthony Bailes recorded a lovely disc of music by Mesangeau and the Gaultiers back in the 80s on EMI. It has been re-released as part of the Reflexe box set available from Amazon.de Steve Amazeen
Instrument name translations
Hi -- I'd be grateful if anyone out there could translate the names of these instruments into English for me! cetra bombardi chitarra (a small guitar, maybe?) E-mailing me off-list is fine. Best, Betsy Small --
Re: CDs
How correct you are, it is a lovely recording as well. It is a pity that EMI insists one purchases an entire set for a high price, which makes it difficult to justify purchasing it. ed At 05:32 PM 11/4/03 -0800, Steve Amazeen wrote: Anthony Bailes recorded a lovely disc of music by Mesangeau and the Gaultiers back in the 80s on EMI. It has been re-released as part of the Reflexe box set available from Amazon.de Steve Amazeen Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Titles (Was Re: Why was the K'berg MS stolen? (Was Re: Koenigsberg Manuscript
Gernot, Rites are manners within a culture. And universal manners should involve learning the rites of one's host and observing them (although I'm not sure I'd go along with that if my host were a cannibal - there are limits). My late father was a life long physicist at Bell Labs (and claims the idea for the principle of the transistor despite Shockley's Nobel). When he retired he went to The Rockefeller Institute (now University) as a guest investigator. He was quite concerned that they addressed him as Dr., as he didn't have his PhD - he was afraid they'd find him a fraud. I pointed out that they knew perfectly well that he didn't have the formal doctorate, but that the were using the title as an honorific because of his knowledge and position. As to the American spelling of Habsburg, we have the tendency to modify foreign spellings to fit the perceived sound. The English may colour their language, we color it. But I won't belabour (belabor) that point. Best, Jon
