Current ongoing topics
Greetings all, Do (some) people need to be reminded that this is a lute list, not a = race, religion, or sexual orientation list? I'm sure that Yahoo = eGroups, MSN, or one of the many other web sites devoted to discussion = lists have groups focusing on these topics. At the very least, could courtesy please be shown to the remaining = subscribers by inserting O/T (off-topic) at the beginning of the = subject line. Frankly, I find it embarrassing to eavesdrop on other people's = verbal vendettas. I feel strongly that everyone has a right to their own opinion, but, = there is a time and a place for all things. It is my opinion that = discussions of such a personal nature have no place on a list such as = this. Please understand that I bear no ill feeling towards anyone in = this matter, it's just somewhat disturbing to read some of the recent = postings when a person is expecting topics such as string preference, = peg dope, or the latest discovered manuscript. Thank you, and I'll be stepping down from my soap box now. Sincerely, Thomas Mead --
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Vance, you have the official and easiest explanation for the holocaust (you're missing a few important elements, I would recommend you some serious historians rather than Hollywood movies), and I insist: according to serious researchers, Judaism is not a race. But do not worry, to my that isn't really important. The main point in which we disagree, is in considering Mr. Thames to be out of place after having used the word nazi, in a context where every side was able to say whatever they wanted. A
Re: Tabs, Staff and Bach superior to Weiss
Dear Jon, As a harpist and now lute-player, you may be interested to know (if you are not already aware) that a form of tablature was used in Spain in the 16th century, which was to be used for the keyboard, or harp, or vihuela. At least, that's what Cabezon and Henestrosa claimed their tablature was for. In this system each note of the scale is given a number from 1 to 7. Different octaves are shown by dots, and flats can be added in for accidentals. The system is just one of many tablatures, which were designed as substitutes for staff notation. As lutenists, we know about French, Italian, German, Neapolitan, and Spanish (Luis Milan) tablature, but we often forget that there were different tablatures for harp and keyboard too. Most of us will be aware that Spanish (Luis Milan) tablature appears today in books of music for guitar, mandoline, and so on. Spanish (Cabezon/ Henestrosa) tablature is now used in Hong Kong for pop music. It is possible that these tablatures were re-invented in the 20th century, by people who were unaware that they had already been used hundreds of years ago. I don't know. In many ways it is remarkable that staff notation, which looks a bit like tadpoles dangling from telegraph wires, should have survived various attempts over the years to find an alternative. If anyone wants to be remembered as the greatest contributor to musical notation since Guido d'Arezzo, they might consider inventing a new system that catches on so much, that it supercedes staff notation. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. Tabulature doesn't lend itself to that (I can't imagine what mental machinations I'd have to go through to take the Tab pieces I have and play them on my harp - actually I can, I've tried). The key signatures and accidentals of the modern staff make it appropriate for the various instruments, but that doesn't make it better for an ensemble of stopped instruments.
Re: Current ongoing topics
Thomas, I share your difficulty, although I confess that I often contribute to it when it is late and I've a bit of beer in me. Some time ago I suggested to Wayne (Wayne please note) that he set the list to have a prefix of (Lutelist) to the subject line by the listserv. He said he had suggested it, but the members of the list had not liked the idea (Wayne, if I misquote you please correct me, I'm operating on my fading memory). It is probable that some on this list, and probably including the most prolific, have little other email. But others may have a lot of legitimate email coming in. I belong to the Harp List (which adds that parenthetical to the subject line), and am a central point for my college class (Princeton, '57 - and there are 600 of us still alive out of 750, with about 400 active). I can route the Harplist to a special folder, and I route anything with lute in the From to another special folder, but that latter doesn't capture all. So if Wayne agrees to ask you again, would you all consider his having the listserv add the parenthetical so that those of us who have a rather large inbox can sort the messages so as to look at them according to the source. Thomas, this wouldn't solve your question of adding an OT' to the subject line, but nothing will do that as the participants in those discussions don't consider them to be Off Topic. And I don't blame them for that, each of us has our own reason for being on the list, and none is better than others. But I'd really like to go through the 2 to 300 messages in my inbox each night without having to select those on the lute to look at later, and those on the lute to delete immediately. If the listserv can insert a parenthetical on the Subject line it would make it easier (and I think it can, but Wayne needs the agreement of the list - if my memory is correct). Best, Jon
[OT]! Re: Vance's hypocricy
Hi! MT Now here, is a MO sighting where he clearly insults gays, by = calling Roman a boychik and I'll translate that for you, it means = Faggot. It is? not in _my_ Yiddish dictionary it ain't. I also only know the 2 usages: tenderly addressing a small boy and friendly-ironical for an adult man. And I have the same origins as Yiddish has: the mediaeval Rheinland ;-) The dictionary of Leo Rosten/ annotated by Bush also doesn't give any derogatory meaning. big, in her best Minskian Yiddish, a schmendrechik. Did she see the operette by Avram Goldfaden? :-) Best regards B.H.
Re: Vance's hypocricy
Michael wrote: Now here, is a MO sighting where he clearly insults gays, by = calling Roman a boychik and I'll translate that for you, it means = Faggot. No, it does not. Boychik, or anything with -chik on the end is more or less a term of endearment. Fageleh (sp?) is Yiddish for homosexual. And faggot in different variations of English means homosexual, cigarette, smallish log to be placed on a fire, and sausage (or a brand name for sausage, I forget). Now please give it a rest. Craig
Re: lute FAQ ??
Thanks Wayne, your hard work is never fully appreciated! I think there are still many topics that could be more easily represented in a single FAQ. Some of the treatises are a bit too detailed and obscure the issues for a lute beginner. I'm really just aiming for a page that can be referenced whenever something repetative is posted to the list; we can say have you checked the FAQ? A living document that can be enhanced whenever a long discussion takes place around a core issue. If nobody else replies with interest then I'll just drop the idea and get back to playing my Cancioneros Nuevos! :?) Chris --- Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are some lute FAQ's on my web page http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/lute.html they are ftp://ftp.cs.dartmouth.edu/pub/lute/Buying_A_Lute.FAQ ftp://ftp.cs.dartmouth.edu/pub/lute/Luthier.FAQ ftp://ftp.cs.dartmouth.edu/pub/lute/Buying_A_Lute.FAQ Though none is literally Lute.FAQ they come close. You can read about hand position - *all* the historical information, as far as I know, at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/hand/Technique.html including all the evidence we have for Dowland's hand position (Stobaeus). Wayne Does a lute FAQ exist? I think it would be great to help newcomers and the curious with the basic questions. I've seen the thumb under/over question more than a few times just this year. Maybe a brief history with the basics on historical playing techniques, how to read various tab's, major composers and works, periods and also a good list of references. A good FAQ exists for the classical guitar newsgroup, and it saves a ton on repeating the same e-mails. Most of this material exists already, and it would just take some organizing. I'm volunteering to coordinate the first draft if folks are willing to contribute content. = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: State of Lutenet/ Lutenist Ghost??!
Ghosts? Lutenists ghosts? Ah, yes, of course, I think many of us will have heard or seen Francesco da Milano's or Weiss ' ghosts playing, or some other unknown lutenist dictating his/her music, repented of having been greedy to have kept it for himself as a precious secret.. and therefore having been completely forgotten by XXI Century players... that's an interesting thread... Donatella - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, arielabramovich wrote: ... but I don't think that's something interesting to talk about it here. I think off-topic discussions should be allowed sometimes. For example, suppose 99.9% of lutenists had heard a ghost. This would be interesting, but one could never discover it because ghosts (poor devils) are off-topic. __ Tiscali ADSL SENZA CANONE: Attivazione GRATIS, contributo adesione GRATIS, modem GRATIS, 50 ore di navigazione GRATIS. ABBONARTI TI COSTA SOLO UN CLICK! http://point.tiscali.it/adsl/index.shtml
Re: a rosette by any other name...
Hmmm... it's truly amazing that there's one physics for lutes and an exactly opposite physics for globular flutes (which certainly behave the way Bob described). Maybe it's the 'f' on the start of the name that reverses things, lol. Seriously, the resonance of the fixed sized chamber is determined by how fast air can move in and out. bigger hole=more air in a given time=faster movement=higher frequency. Run that by your physicist friend. Michael Thames wrote: Dear Doctor, Actually I just looked this up in my book here, and I will explain it like this. One needs a fixed, solid air cavity with an opening. As one increases the size of the opening it lowers the air space resonance, period!that is science. Bob actually has it ass backwards! I actually don't really get what Bob is talking about because he is not using science and I have a hard time following him. Bob talks about blowing into the soundhole and hearing something. What Bob is actually hearing is what is called mode coupling. that is a phenomena were you are hearing both the air resonat frequency coupling with the frequency of the vibrating plates to create one frequency,as on a lute or guitar. If however, the plates where not able to vibrate and had a fixed air cavity you would only hear the air resonance frequency. This really is not up for debate it is pure science, no matter how Bob trys to sell it! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:41 PM Subject: Re: a rosette by any other name... Michael, your physicist friend didn't understand the problem. As Bob described it the amount of beer in the bottle during the experiment was fixed. Only the size of the opening changed. Michael Thames wrote: I've just spoken to my physicist friend, and he explained it like this. When you have a beer bottle and blow into it, the pitch changes according to how much beer ( air volume) is in the bottle. Bob, what has the most significant effect on the pitch is how much beer you consumed during your experiment! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: BobClair or EkkoJennings [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:48 AM Subject: a rosette by any other name... Philippe Mottet [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think M. Thames is right when he mentions that a bigger opening, a rosette with a longer diameter and an airy (?) motive, tends to favor bass and fundamental resonances. And you, also, would be incorrect. I'm not trying to be mean or rude, you are entitled to believe whatever makes you happy. But unlike some more subjective things, like whether a note is sparkling or not, the pitch of the main air resonance of a guitar or lute or violin and what happens to that pitch as you make the hole(s) in the top smaller (it goes down) are objective things that you can easily measure with a simple experiment. They are no more influenced by how you think or feel about them than is the height of the Eiffel tower. As for this particular rose design causes those particular tonal qualities - there are just way too many variables involved. Making such a statement on the basis of one or two instruments is nothing more than a superstition. To make any meaningful statement you would have to make two batches of otherwise identical instruments with twodifferent rose patterns and then show that, on average, a pair with different roses had a significant difference in the quality you were testing for compared to a pair with the same rose design. At this point it would be wise to recall a statement attributed to Michael Lowe: An exact copy of a historical instrument ? I can't even make an exact copy of one of my own instruments. Pendulums ? Divining ? Dowsing? Mysterious Energy ? My contract with the Physicist's Union has a clause limiting the amount of time I have to spend arguing with believers so I will just leave with a single word: unlikely. .Bob Replies: (remove the ) Ekko Jennings: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bob Clair: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Re: LUTE list
Well, I see it is not a lute discussion list. Does anybody know some other? Jerzy Yes. The Baroque Lute List. It's a little slow, with this one sapping all juices. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Current ongoing topics
Some time ago I suggested to Wayne (Wayne please note) that he set the list to have a prefix of (Lutelist) to the subject line by the listserv. He said he had suggested it, but the members of the list had not liked the idea (Wayne, if I misquote you please correct me, I'm operating on my fading memory). It is probable that some on this list, and probably including the most prolific, have little other email. But others may have a lot of legitimate email coming in. I belong to the Harp List (which adds that parenthetical to the subject line), It resulted in the multiple Lute prefix that obliterated the subject after 2 responses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
RE: Current ongoing topics
It resulted in the multiple Lute prefix that obliterated the subject after 2 responses. RT Which of course is a highly desirable side effect, considered the quality of the recent threads... Francesco
Re: Vance's hypocricy
So is _your_ ignorance of the Yiddish vernacular MO I stand corrected, However, most people in this country don't speak Yiddish. I think you threw us all a curveball. Michael Thames Actually, MT is not totally wrong. The word BOYCHIK had been overheard to denote a gentleman of certain proclivities, when acting in the way that doesn't befit his middle+ age. This is probably too new to be in dictionaries. I assume MO used it in its standard usage. Standarg usage is different: CHIK is a Russian diminutive suffix. Combined with word BOY it gives a meaning of condecsension, if not contempt. There is no endearment in the term. RT
RE: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
rofl -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:11 PM To: Vance Wood; lute list Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Sorry Roman again you are wrong, Bonsai is not an ethnic group within a group of trees, Bonsai is a method where by any tree from any back ground can be grown as a bonsai. Bonsai means tree in a pot, loosely translated. I have been growing bonsai for nearly fifty years and some of that as a semi-professional. I think putting trees in ghettos is inhuman. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Current ongoing topics
Good idea, Jon. Of course, then as now, it was strongly opposed by one of our more prolific flamers... proving your thesis, I suppose, :) Roman Turovsky wrote: Some time ago I suggested to Wayne (Wayne please note) that he set the list to have a prefix of (Lutelist) to the subject line by the listserv. He said he had suggested it, but the members of the list had not liked the idea (Wayne, if I misquote you please correct me, I'm operating on my fading memory). It is probable that some on this list, and probably including the most prolific, have little other email. But others may have a lot of legitimate email coming in. I belong to the Harp List (which adds that parenthetical to the subject line), It resulted in the multiple Lute prefix that obliterated the subject after 2 responses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Vihuela
Dear Jon, The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. Since the vihuela and the lute share the same tuning, it is not surprising that vihuela music turns up in lute sources outside Spain, in printed books (e.g. Phalese), and in manuscripts (e.g. the Willoughby Lute Book. However, the traffic didn't all go one way. There is some music by Francesco da Milano included in Henestrosa's collection, printed in the tablature I described in my last e-mail. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Tabs, Staff and Bach superior to Weiss I wasn't aware of the tabulature for harp and keyboard, but I doubt it was a substitute for modern staff notation. If you've read the old staff notations almost anything would have been better than that. I don't know the vihuela, although I gather from this list that it is in the lute form, perhaps one of those with the extra strings on the extended neck.
Re: Vihuela
The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. This suggestion can be happily eliminated from future descriptions as there is iconography testifying to the contrary. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Vihuela
RT, Interesting. Would you be kind enough to cite the iconography. Thanks, GB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:35 AM Subject: Re: Vihuela The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. This suggestion can be happily eliminated from future descriptions as there is iconography testifying to the contrary. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
calling Dr. Helmholtz...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've just spoken to my physicist friend, and he explained it like this. When you have a beer bottle and blow into it, the pitch changes according to how much beer ( air volume) is in the bottle. Your physicist friend is right. And so am I. The resonance depends on both the volume of air and the area of the opening. (The resonant frequency is proportional to the square root of the area divided by the volume.) But unless you intend your guitars to function as variable volume beer reservoirs as well as instruments, the proper experimental procedure is, alas, to refrain from drinking the beer during the experiment and vary the opening. (I might add that nothing in Every Girl And Boy's Big Book of Experimental Physics prevents you from sampling the contents of the other five bottles of fine beverage in that six pack you bought just for this purpose.) I just looked this up in my book here Which book ? Where ? One needs a fixed solid air cavity with an opening. As one increases the size of the opening it lowers the air space resonance, period!that is science. Bob actually has it ass backwards! I'm not sure what to say to this other than to inquire about which controlled substances you may have ingested recently. A beer bottle is certainly a fixed, solid air cavity with an opening and as you close the opening the frequency of the air resonance goes down. Science doesn't operate by shouting or by writing period! at the end of a diatribe. It operates by experiment. Michael did you even bother to tear yourself away from your computer and actually try this? Lutenetters! Help Michael out here. Try this at home and report back. Take a wine or beer bottle. Fill it 2/3 full with water. (The change in pitch for a given change in area is bigger when the volume is smaller - patially filling it with water makes the effect easier to see (hear) but if you think this makes the results suspect leave the bottle empty). Blow across the bottle, note the pitch. Now cover half the opening with a finger. Try it again (it may take a bit of practice to get the note). Did the pitch go up or down? I actually don't really get what Bob is talking about because he is not using science and I have a hard time following him. May I suggest that this might be due to an insufficient background in basic science and a slightly overwrought emotional attachment to a dearly held, but incorrect idea? Seriously, I taught college physics for a number of years and as most professors will tell you, every once in a while you get the undergraduate equivalent of a flat earther. A student will appear for office hours and be so frustrated and attached to their way of doing things, that they cannot see it when you point out where they have gone astray. At some point it becomes a waste of time for both of you. My way of dealing with it was to tell the the student this is something you have to go home and think about quietly by yourself for awhile. Michael, I make the same suggestion to you. Take a break. Go to Lambert's. Have a nice dinner. Then take the wine bottle home and try the experiment. Get a copy of the _The Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics_ (Arthur Benade). Give it to your physicist friend along with _all_ the correspondence from this thread (not just your side of the story). Let him read the relevant chapters of the book and have him explain it to you. If the Taos library doesn't have the book this link: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/Helmholtz.html has a nice explanation of Helmholtz resonators as well as links to other pages on acoustics. This really is not up for debate it is pure science, no matter how Bob trys to sell it! I'm not selling anything. Regrettably I get no commissions from the Physicist's Union. If I did I would be trying the experiment with a higher class of beverage bottle. ...Bob Replies: (remove the ) Ekko Jennings: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bob Clair: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vihuela
Interesting. Would you be kind enough to cite the iconography. Thanks, GB From long necked pandoura type in 7-8th centuries' Catalan mss, to Zurbaran. see http://polyhymnion.org/torban/torban2.html for the former. BTW Zurbaran shows a lute with inordinately long neck. Should be on Alfonso's page. RT The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. This suggestion can be happily eliminated from future descriptions as there is iconography testifying to the contrary. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Vihuela
Dear Roman and lutenists, on Friday 12 December 2003 17:07, Roman Turovsky wrote: From long necked pandoura type in 7-8th centuries' Catalan mss, to Zurbaran. see http://polyhymnion.org/torban/torban2.html for the former. BTW Zurbaran shows a lute with inordinately long neck. Should be on .. The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. This suggestion can be happily eliminated from future descriptions as there is iconography testifying to the contrary. RT I just wonder, what a 7-8th century Catalan mss. has to do with the attitudes of the society of 16th century Spain? Arto
Re: Vihuela
Dear all, lutes are mentioned in inventories of the Spanish courts, and was clearly used in Spain. There're many speculations about why the vihuela seems to have overtaken the scene in the Spain of the XVI c., but so far nothing conclusive. A
Re: Vihuela
Dear Roman, It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. Gilbert Chase in his book, _The Music of Spain_ (New York, 1941), page 53, suggested that the Spanish might have resented the lute because of its association with the Moors. The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). In her article, The Lute in Christian Spain, _The Lute Society Journal_, vol. XIX (1977), pp.34-49, Diana Poulton argues that the situation was more complex than Gilbert Chase would have us believe, and gives all kinds of evidence, including iconographical evidence, which shows that the lute was indeed played in Spain. However, her evidence is drawn from a wide period of time, and doesn't really explain why the Spanish should have printed music for the vihuela and not the lute, in the 40 years from Luis Milan (1536) to Estaban Daza (1576). Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Vihuela The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. This suggestion can be happily eliminated from future descriptions as there is iconography testifying to the contrary. RT
Re: Vance's problem
Dear Michael: I don't understand why you have to call anybody names. That's kind of juvenile is it not? It seems to me that when a debate degrades to the point of name calling someone has run out of salient points and must resort to insults. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 6:33 PM Subject: Vance's problem Vance, You seem to be obsessed with this Nazi thing. I never mentioned race, = or Jews, or Germans etc. I actually thought MO was French, no offence to = the French, their wonderful people. MO, seemed to be amazed that I never read his biography, but what = can I say, I never did, and the truth is, I've never set foot on his = website either.. Vance, I thought all self described conservatives as yourself, don't = pull the race card. Funny isn't it? I think your doing the victims of real crimes of the holocaust a = huge insult it drop it down to this level. Shame on you! As far as the use of the word Nazi, is concerned, I can only say it = like this. The Nazis where the most horrific, evil, merciless, people I = can think of. They were of different races. Nazis were German, = Italian, Russian, and now these days American etc. It is a state of = mind!=20 I view MO to be one of the nastiest, horrific, dictatorial, close = minded, and evil intended people, that I have ever run across in my = life, I have heard of his prosecution of others as well. So the word = Nazi stands! However It was a mistake to call him a Bastard, as I am = uncertain of this. =20 =20 Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames --
Django 7.2
Dear lutenists, I have now released version 7.2 of my tablature software, Django. I have been privileged to work on a new type of tablature for that version, developed by Matt Wadsworth, with the assistance of Jacob Heringman, to allow blind lutenists (and guitar players) to print tablature on Braille printers. I will post more information on that feature in the future on my WEB site at http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/ELF.html Besides that feature Django offers WYSIWYG full-page format editing of tablature in French, Italian and Spanish modes, import/export capabilities to and from the MIDI format (with excellent output through the Timidity++ player), the possibility to display a digital facsimile on screen for ease of editing (no more twisted necks...), automatic conversion to notation and automatic transposition of tab from one tuning to another. Django also provides features for the easy handling of large numbers of pieces via the HTML format and a varied set of fonts. Most importantly however, Django allows you to do some totally silly things like this: http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Almane.pdf (and the MIDI to go with it http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Almane.mid) I hope you enjoy it, Alain PS: those who have broadband access might be interested in an MP3 rendition of the Weiss duetto in the Moscow MS - see http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Weiss/Moscow/Weiss_Moscou.html
Re: Vance's hypocricy
Dear: I don't remember MO saying that, though I do not doubt it. I know he has a temper as bad as any on this list, and a mouth to match. However, and from whatever source, the calling of names is silly and fruitless. I don't defend him. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 7:02 PM Subject: Vance's hypocricy Vance, Manyna wrote this,to Roman. Somehow I suspect that you will be able to resist the urge=20 to attack me, once you get more of that second-hand whiff of wind... see = you later, boychik. Now here, is a MO sighting where he clearly insults gays, by = calling Roman a boychik and I'll translate that for you, it means = Faggot. This is not some kind of dreamed up theory, like my case. MO = actually said it! Now I would have thought that you would burn him at = the stake for that one Dudley, but it seems your hypocrisy knows no = bounds. =20 =20 Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames --
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Ariel: I never said Judaism was a race, you had better read the string again, Judaism is the religion practiced by the Jewish people in general and various others that choose to accept it. I had a history minor in University, though I am not a source authority I am not ignorant as you seem to wish to convey. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 1:22 AM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Dear Vance, you have the official and easiest explanation for the holocaust (you're missing a few important elements, I would recommend you some serious historians rather than Hollywood movies), and I insist: according to serious researchers, Judaism is not a race. But do not worry, to my that isn't really important. The main point in which we disagree, is in considering Mr. Thames to be out of place after having used the word nazi, in a context where every side was able to say whatever they wanted. A
Re: Vihuela
Dear Stewart snip However, her evidence is drawn from a wide period of time, and doesn't really explain why the Spanish should have printed music for the vihuela and not the lute, in the 40 years from Luis Milan (1536) to Estaban Daza (1576). Does this mean that the books in that period contained pieces in Spanish tablature that were perfectly playable on the lute because of the tuning, but were entitled Pieces for Vihuela? (Sorry I don't do Spanish). If so, the difference seems a bit academic as presumably everyone would know that they could play it on either instrument. From what you say about the iconographic evidence that lutes were being played, it is difficult to imagine the lutenists going down to the local music shop and saying Oh damn, they're still only churning out vihuela music. Does what you say mean that till 1535 (after 1576 is perhaps less important) they _were_ producing lute music. Going back to your earlier reply to Jon, how do we recognize a vihuela piece in a (later, non Spanish) lute collection? Is it because the earliest known version was published in that period in Spain? Yours, Tony Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Vihuela The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. This suggestion can be happily eliminated from future descriptions as there is iconography testifying to the contrary. RT
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance said: I never said Judaism was a race, you had better read the string again, Judaism is the religion practiced by the Jewish people in general and various others that choose to accept it. This is not what you've said, but doesn't matter. I was a fool by getting into this particular thing again. I didn't say you're an ignorant (and I don't necessary think so), though your comments about the holocaust and the historical motivations were a bit simplistic. I still don't get why do you feel offended or uncomfortable when M. Thames or RT use certain expressions, but you didn't say a single word when, for example, MO started calling me things (idiot, etc.) before I even had the chance to breath, and before he knew who I was and what I do (he doesn't right now). If your intention is bringing peace back, I'm afraid you're not doing such a great job being so partial. Don't you think? A
Re: Restrictions in using library sources
Stefan, Phuu... I finally managed to get through the last 2 week's 600 lute mails in the inbox. What a prolific gang. And the pathos! But what happened to common decensy? To answer your question partly, here is what I had to sign before being issued a microfilm, when ordering a little known print from a German library recently: Verpflichtungserklärung Der/die Unterzeichnete erklärt, in seinen/ihren Veröffentlichungen über (shelf number of the work) die Bibliothek in dieser Formulierung zu zitieren: (name of library). Er/sie verpflichtet sich, choice 1, checked: (x) die überlassenen Reproduktionen nur zu seinem/ihrem persönlichen Gebrauch zu verwenden, diese oder Kopien davon nicht weiterzugeben, für Editionen und bildliche Wiedergaben die Genehmigung der Musikabteilung einzuholen und für kommerzielle Verwendung Nutzungshonorare nach den Geschäftsbedingungen des (name of library) zu zahlen. choice 2, unchecked: ( ) die überlassenen Reproduktionen nur in dem unten angegebenen Publikationsvorhaben, nur für diese Auflage und Ausgabe zu verwenden, von dem veröffentlichten Werk zwei Belegeexemplare der Bibliothek kostenlos zuzusenden und bei leihweiser Überlassung die Reproduktionen nach Gebrauch umgehend wieder an die Bibliothek zurückzuschicken. Das Nutzungshonorar wird vom (name of library) in Rechnung gestellt. Der/die Unterzeichnete erkennt die Geschäftsbedingungen dieser Institution an. Der/die Unterzeichnete erklärt, einschlägige Urheber-, Leistungsschutz- und Persönlichkeitsrechte beachtet zu haben. Arbritsvorhaben/Publikationsvorhaben: Datum:Name/Firma: Unterschrift:Adresse: I don't know if you understand German, but unquestionably, the library has restricted my use of the source in their possession. There are however 2 choices. Were I to make a publication, (as I understand it, involving copying the image of the print, but perhaps also involving an edition), choice 2 would be applied, (with supposedly a higher charge). As I stated that my purpouses were for personal use, their yet unedited/unpublished 15th century print was issued to me for a very decent charge. Of course, I've typeset the book and converted it to TAB. I have thereby extracted the PD music therein contained and saved it in a different format. I've also corrected obvious mistakes. What I'm hypothetically uncertain about (and I gather, this is partly what you're asking with this thread) is: Should I wish to give away my digital version of the music that I've typeset to someone, or even post it on the net, has the library restricted me from doing so by my signing the agreement? I've got the impression (Howard) that this would constitute no breach of copyright whatsoever in the US. (The libraries there probably don't even get through the rigmarole of signing an agreement, but let's face it, most of the interesting and yet unpublished lute manuscripts are in Europe). I'm uncertain about if it would constitute a breach in Europe. (Any European lawyers around?) Ethics is of course a different matter, also the question of preservation of this music. This thread cannot possibly interest many of this list's netters, I apologise for that. But for the few who are, I'm quite eager to sort this out. In this country we have a saying: It's easier to get forgiveness than permission. I suppose, that is why this is not really an issue. Many do it, and get away with it, 'cause there has never been a case brought to court or any precedents established. Noone seems to care about this peripheral issue anyway. Sincerely hoping that my mail will not lead to another war between the usually extremely eager and knowledgeable combatants who have a somewhat nasty proclivity for jamming this space of cyber with personal vendettas. (Certainly not trying to fan any embers!) In any case, civility seems to be rather secondary for some of us As to your your main question: |My last and most important question: did anybody every question wether | such restrictions might be illegal in case of public libraries? For | instance, can a University really decide to give the right to publish | one of their sources exclusively to one person? Stefan, the libraries don't do that. They let anyone publish their material. It's just a question of paying them what they ask, for you to be allowed to do so. Different libraries have different policies. Some are greedy, (25£ per page is ridiculous), some are very liberal. It's a lottery really, depending of who you talk to. I've never approached libraries with publishing intentions, and have no ambitions or experience there, but have always (except in one recent case, see below), received kind and helpful assistance from virtually all of them. Best Regards Göran PS. I approached a mayor French library, (the holders of Vm. Rés 429). They quoted such an exorbitant charge (about 150$) for issuing a microfilm, that it was completely futile for me to try
Re: lets end this flame war
Thank you, Wayne. Now, hopefully we can get onto lute, or more currently, vihuela related activities. ed At 02:28 PM 12/12/03 -0500, Wayne Cripps wrote: Hi lute people - I have been writing individually to people that seem to be involved in the current flame war, asking them to calm down, and to try and refrain from posting any more angry messages. I would like to ask all of you, including those who I haven't written to, to do the same. This list is not moderated, which means that I don't read, edit, or approve of posts, but I do have the ability to prevent someone from posting. I would rather not do that. I would rather have people take some time to think before they post, and to think how foolish or annoying their falmes can be to the rest of us. A personal argument on the internet is pretty pointless. It does not prove anything. At this point I don't care who started it, I just want it to end. Wayne lute mail list administrator Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
from rec.mus.classical
Friday, a volume of music for lute and soprano printed in the early 16th century by Ottaviano Petrucci sold to a private bidder for $204,000 a record for a piece of printed music, the auctioneer said. Petrucci, described as the Gutenberg of printed music, was granted a monopoly on the music publishing industry in Venice in 1498. Before Friday, his work had not been up for bid since 1949. Petrucci was the first publisher of printed music and his editions are as rare as hen's teeth, said Stephen Roe, head of Sotheby's manuscripts department. The two-part volume, printed in 1509 and 1511, was once owned by Robert Bolling (1738-1775), a member of the House of Burgesses in the Virginia colony in the United States. Bolling's elder brother was married to Mary Jefferson, the sister of Thomas Jefferson. __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: from rec.mus.classical
What was the book? One of the Bossinensis books with Cara, Tromboncino, et al? ed At 10:44 PM 12/12/03 -0500, Roman Turovsky wrote: Friday, a volume of music for lute and soprano printed in the early 16th century by Ottaviano Petrucci sold to a private bidder for $204,000 a record for a piece of printed music, the auctioneer said. Petrucci, described as the Gutenberg of printed music, was granted a monopoly on the music publishing industry in Venice in 1498. Before Friday, his work had not been up for bid since 1949. Petrucci was the first publisher of printed music and his editions are as rare as hen's teeth, said Stephen Roe, head of Sotheby's manuscripts department. The two-part volume, printed in 1509 and 1511, was once owned by Robert Bolling (1738-1775), a member of the House of Burgesses in the Virginia colony in the United States. Bolling's elder brother was married to Mary Jefferson, the sister of Thomas Jefferson. __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
