Re: Wire strings
RT, your sources may be quite accurate as to the invention of drawing wire in Germany, but that doesn't say anything about other places. And why do you separate the drawing of wire from steel wire? Steel is a form of iron, but bronze and brass are not. Are you saying that the drawing of any metal for wire was invented in Germany in the 14th C., or only a specific metal. Either way you are wrong. Again you are looking at only European sources. There is evidence, which I can't document tonight as it is late, that metal wires were used even in the ancient Egyptian proto harps. The development of metal technology, and musical instruments, has not been an entirely linear process. Things are lost, then found again. Or are extant in one civilization while unknown in another. I stand by my statement that the early Celtic (and we Celts do prefer the capital letter) harps were wire strung, although I can't say how they made them. But I'm not going to try to get the early writings of the old legends out tonight (those writings being of the 9th and 10th centuries about earlier events). By the way, you have spoken of my inexactitude when I've used a generic term. May I ask how you can refer to Germany in the 1300s? Neither France nor Germany, as we know them today, existed then. Dukedoms and states, some within the HRE and some on the fringes and giving tribute. And some quite independent. That which we call Germany became a nation in the 19th C.. I do not accuse you of fallacy, I accept the shorthand of calling it Germany because it was within the bounds of modern Germany. But you are inexact. Best, Jon Drawing wire was invented in Germany in the mid 1300's, drawn steel 1632. Beaten wire technology of before the 14th century precludes the possibility of metal stings on celtic harps until Renaissance (counted from Dante, Giotto Co). RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: early recordings
Tim, I totally agree with you, but I'm also making an assumption. And I must confess that it has been so long since I heard Jean Ritchie and her family (and I believe they were sources for Lomax's recordings) that I don't know if she used a noter or chording. And I agree that it is the younger who started the chording of the traditional Appalachian dulcimer (my guru is Larkin Bryant). But the assumption I am making, and perhaps a bad one, is that the old boys were making an approximation of an ancestral European instrument, and doing so within the limitations of their available resources (and memories of the music played). In fact this might be an example of what I said in my message to Roman - things can be lost and then refound. Those old boys all either immigrated, or had ancestors that immigrated. The Appalachian dulcimer has a name that is used for another instrument (one of the zither family, i.e. individual strings for each note, like the harp). Yet it has a neck, which implies stopping of the strings. So the chording may have been lost and the traditional that you and I know is a new tradition that is being supplanted by an older one. So it is my humble proposal that the mountain dulcimer is a recreation of a member of the lute family, which one I don't know - and don't care to know. And that the three courses weren't invented as a drone type instrument in 19th century Appalachia, but they devolved to that as the country folk made music from an instrument they derived from their ancestry. This is no denigration of that music, I love to play the old tunes using my thumb as a noter, then go into another chorus with the chording (I have a very hardened thumb, them wires don't even make a dent in it g). I will guess that the modern finger pickin' with the right hand is modern. Given the early use of quill picks for most chordophones it is likely, but not necessary, that the ancestor of the mountain dulcimer was a strummed instrument. But I do like finger pickin' it, again as a second chorus to the strumming. BTW, for the lutenists. The full strum on the mountain dulcimer is a thumb under and index finger imitation of the quill pick, just that it is across the full set of strings rather than the individual note. (Don't pick on me Tim (and pardon the pun), that is inexact, but close). Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Timothy Motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 1:40 PM Subject: Re: early recordings Jon, I've built Appalachian dulcimers and looked into their history. For the old, truly folk-made, dulcimers, it was not uncommon for the frets to be wire staples pounded into the fretboard beneath the treble course. When fretwire is used, you make the slot for it by cutting a kerf across the fretboard and pounding a section of fretwire into the kerf. It would be a whole lot more work to attempt to cut the kerf only under the treble courses than to simply set the fret all the way across the fretboard and just not use the frets under the drones. From what I remember of Jean Ritchie's books, she played the traditional way using a noter. It was younger people like Richard Farina who started chording the drone strings. In David Hajdu's book, Positively 4th Street, he has a description of where Farina wanted to go musically with the dulcimer, and he was definitely breaking with traditional playing style. Tim On Friday, November 26, 2004, at 12:21 AM, Jon Murphy wrote: To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Wire strings
Roman, I have no idea what encylopedia you are using, nor what it speaks of. I don't even know what wire is in that definition. But chain mail was being used in the late first millenium, and probably in the middle part of it. And what is chain mail other than rather thick wire. King Arthur's knights, as apochryphal as they are, would have worn chain mail rather than shining armor (and lived in thatched cottages or mud huts rather than Camelot). But beaten wire could yet be used for an instrument. Has it occured to you that once the process of beating hot metal into shapes had been discovered, and then taken to beating it into a thick round (for the chain mail, or even before that for the links holding the plates together) then someone might have beaten it thinner. The making of metal linkages goes back a long way, key bolts for stone structures go back 3000 years. Let us not assume that some old boy didn't make wire, whatever that is. (When does a long thin piece of metal stop being a bar and become wire? I guess when you can bend it and sew something together with it.) OK, drawn wire. Malleable metals have the ability to take shape when drawn through an orifice. That makes for a more consistant wire than a beaten one. But early gut strings, made by twisting cat gut (whether from a sheep or pig, or whatever) were inconsistant in longitudinal density, as was beaten wire. In fact I'll make a guess here, I think it was probably easier to make a consistant beaten wire than a consistant gut. Put the wire under tension and use a light hammer to pound out the thick points. But that is just a guess as I haven't tried it. But we do know that once the gut is twisted the anomalies in the guage (density) will be locked into it. I state the thesis that string making was an art, not a science. And that making wire strings might have been easier than gut. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bonnie Shaljean [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 8:22 AM Subject: Re: Wire strings From an encyclopedia: History of wire production Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The art of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century, and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th century. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Wire strings were not deemed an implausibility on early harps - it was used for centuries. The Irish had developed the technique of wire-drawing which not only gave them magnificent-sounding harps (as evidenced by the rapt verbal descriptions of their contemporaries) but also allowed for the finely-wrought metal work on early Celtic jewelry and other historical treasures. If you read the written accounts of the Medieval Irish harpers (who travelled all over the continent) both they and their instruments seem to have been king of the mountain. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Stephan Olbertz wrote: this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his website at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article. He says: It is possible to approach the original type of sound balance with modern materials. We can twist nylon and PVF and make ropes out of them. We have been showing this stringing on a vihuela at the London Early Music Exhibition for some years now... This is exactly what I was wondering about the other day when I listened again to a cassette lecture (available from the LSA) about gut stringing by Damien Dlugolecki. Has anyone tried twisting NylGut into Catlines or rope strings? I am definitely not satisfied with wound basses. My lute came with loaded gut basses when I got it, which sounded great but were useless, as far as I was concerned, because they were out of tune with the octaves when fretted. One other problem with playing technique is the difference in size between strings within a course. If the difference is too great, it causes problems with the angle one can use with the finger when fretting and bar chords. I would like to know if roped strings are thinner than loaded gut strings with an equivalent tension. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Wire strings
According to Jon Murph the Celts also had jet propulsion and cold fusion at least since Roman times. Mr. Turovsky, You are quite correct. The Celts were giants and a Celt's fart could propel him to the moon. Perhaps that is why there are so many Celtic legends. As to cold fusion those warriors (and bards) lived in a northern clime and cold fusion was the only way to get warm (and make new Celts). I'm sure the marital fusion started with cold bodies, but soon warmed up. I'll not go further, there seems to be some support for my position (actually the main support for my current position is coming from the chair I'm sitting in, and it is a rather comfortable one). For the rest of you, I wonder if Roman times should be written as The Roman Times, a regular opinion medium promulgated on this list. Now may I point out that early was six AM when I was working, and (being retired) is now eight AM on a golf day. And on a day when I have nothing planned, and have stayed up too late typing my silly messages, early is whenever I choose to get up. Early is relative, early rock music comes from the sixties, early R B from the thirties (but not noticed until later). Early Rap is irrelevant, as it isn't music (but if anyone disagrees I'll agree about the polyrythm). An early harpist is one who arises at sun up. Like the early lute it was a melody instrument. Polyphony came upon the musicians as a development, a social and musical development. To the modern child the Everly Brothers are early music (and that is a careful choice, they used inverse third harmony that had been a no no since almost the time of Fux). I respectfully request a truce, and I suggest that some of the responses would agree. Argument is best served when it is valid, and each side can accept a point, or even move. I have already done so (even though you may detect that my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Wire strings
Roman, OK, I've had it. Your snippy replies to David Cameron did the trick. I've tried to be polite and maintain a conversation. It doesn't matter whether wire strings could have been made a thousand years ago, or two or three thousand. It doesn't matter whether the lute came from the hunter's bowstring in his cave by stopping the string, or if that was the harp by adding more strings to the bow and becoming a pure musician, to be supported for his aesthetic value by the real hunters who got the game. Actually none of what you say matters, history isn't a perfect document, and as I said in another message it isn't always linear. I think we can both agree that the legendary Golden Age of the Greeks never happened, but it seems that you see a Golden Age of music, that also never happened. You answer David's rather strong comment Give it a rest, Roman. You're out of your depth, and have nothing more to contribute to the discussion, other than a display of ego. by saying Why don't you contribute something? Share your knowledge. Well, perhaps David has done so, even if by just commenting on your own contributions. I feel a bit out of my own depth as a newcomer to the lute. I feel that I should be careful in what I say and bow to the more senior members of this list (although I doubt that any are senior to me in either age or time in music). A statement of principles for dialogue from one who has a lot of time in grade. Never denigrate any comment or opinion, but always answer that which you think to be misinformation. Yet do it politely, and with a full reading of the message. Don't let your ego get involved, you may be wrong!. And now I'll close with a provocative comment. I believe I know you sir, I've known many of you over the years. A lack of imagination, and an antagonism to imagination. A fixation on a particular skill, perhaps born of imagined deprivation. You, sir, are the titan of lute music, I accept that. You have defined yourself as such. Now just let the rest of us enjoy the dialogue of learning among ourselves - we are not so perfect on lute music, but we may have some other virtues. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Ed, A very interesting thread, this. I'm sticking my head a bit above the parapet this time just on a point of information. A roped gut string will always be a bigger diameter than a loaded string because it is less dense. In fact it will also be bigger and more difficult to finger than a smooth-surfaced gut string of the same density and mass. Recently I unearthed some roped gut strings which I made and used some years ago. They were flexible and true (and not very knobbly), but compared to a plain gut string they have a duller, softer sound. I think it must be because the strands of the rope are free to slide against each other to some extent, or there are small gaps so they are not fully in contact. But it convinced me that the final solution to the problem of gut bass strings is not going to involve roping. Incidentally a pretty strong argument against roping is that none of the people who could have mentioned it did (Capirola, Dowland, Mace, Burwell) - in fact thay all say the signs of goodness are the same for bass strings as they are for treble strings: clear against the light, smooth, stiff to the finger. (for sources see my sit www.luteshop.co.uk under Lute strings ancient and modern. It seems we have little alternative but to experiment with lower tensions. Best wishes, Martin - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephan Olbertz [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Stephan Olbertz wrote: this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his website at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article. He says: It is possible to approach the original type of sound balance with modern materials. We can twist nylon and PVF and make ropes out of them. We have been showing this stringing on a vihuela at the London Early Music Exhibition for some years now... This is exactly what I was wondering about the other day when I listened again to a cassette lecture (available from the LSA) about gut stringing by Damien Dlugolecki. Has anyone tried twisting NylGut into Catlines or rope strings? I am definitely not satisfied with wound basses. My lute came with loaded gut basses when I got it, which sounded great but were useless, as far as I was concerned, because they were out of tune with the octaves when fretted. One other problem with playing technique is the difference in size between strings within a course. If the difference is too great, it causes problems with the angle one can use with the finger when fretting and bar chords. I would like to know if roped strings are thinner than loaded gut strings with an equivalent tension. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Continuo Loeillet A-minor Sonate
Hello, Although Loeillet, J. B. is a Baroque author, because there is a bigger number of people that look at the Renaissance list, exceptionally put this petition here (I already made it in the baroque list!) Does somebody have the original continuo figures of the first Adagio from the famous A-minor Flute Sonata? Thank you in advance. Best wishes, Jose-Luis Spain -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Wire strings
I do not feel like joining the legions of people who seem to fight with you. come on, please. Wire harps WERE in existence in early Ireland and Scotland, whether you like it or not. The 14th century does qualify was early. they had wires doesn't mean they had wired harps. And wire can very well mean what Roman's source says: hammered and rounded plates. So what? Is it a religious question? In a way yes, I seem to remember this technology mentioned (apropos gold+textiles) already in Exodus. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Wire strings
Drawing wire was invented in Germany in the mid 1300's, drawn steel 1632. Beaten wire technology of before the 14th century precludes the possibility of metal stings on celtic harps until Renaissance (counted from Dante, Giotto Co). RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv It doesn't preclude it. A beaten wire could be lapped to whatever level of consistency and accuracy was desired, given reasonable skill of the string-maker. Thousands of amateurs have made model steam and internal combustion engines, fitting the pistons to cylinders by lapping (serarately, not by lapping the piston inside the cylinder, which cannot produce the fit required). It is perfectly feasible to work within dimentional limits of one or two ten thousanths of an inch (0.0001-0.0002, or say 0.002mm-0.004mm) by lapping with simply made and crude seeming laps. David Cameron To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Martin, I agree. You are most correct, in that the sources never mention roped gut. I can imagine that roping gut is a modern invention, rather than a historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical. ed At 11:26 AM 11/27/2004 +, Martin Shepherd wrote: Dear Ed, A very interesting thread, this. I'm sticking my head a bit above the parapet this time just on a point of information. A roped gut string will always be a bigger diameter than a loaded string because it is less dense. In fact it will also be bigger and more difficult to finger than a smooth-surfaced gut string of the same density and mass. Recently I unearthed some roped gut strings which I made and used some years ago. They were flexible and true (and not very knobbly), but compared to a plain gut string they have a duller, softer sound. I think it must be because the strands of the rope are free to slide against each other to some extent, or there are small gaps so they are not fully in contact. But it convinced me that the final solution to the problem of gut bass strings is not going to involve roping. Incidentally a pretty strong argument against roping is that none of the people who could have mentioned it did (Capirola, Dowland, Mace, Burwell) - in fact thay all say the signs of goodness are the same for bass strings as they are for treble strings: clear against the light, smooth, stiff to the finger. (for sources see my sit www.luteshop.co.uk under Lute strings ancient and modern. It seems we have little alternative but to experiment with lower tensions. Best wishes, Martin - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephan Olbertz [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Stephan Olbertz wrote: this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his website at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article. He says: It is possible to approach the original type of sound balance with modern materials. We can twist nylon and PVF and make ropes out of them. We have been showing this stringing on a vihuela at the London Early Music Exhibition for some years now... This is exactly what I was wondering about the other day when I listened again to a cassette lecture (available from the LSA) about gut stringing by Damien Dlugolecki. Has anyone tried twisting NylGut into Catlines or rope strings? I am definitely not satisfied with wound basses. My lute came with loaded gut basses when I got it, which sounded great but were useless, as far as I was concerned, because they were out of tune with the octaves when fretted. One other problem with playing technique is the difference in size between strings within a course. If the difference is too great, it causes problems with the angle one can use with the finger when fretting and bar chords. I would like to know if roped strings are thinner than loaded gut strings with an equivalent tension. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Wire strings
According to Jon Murph the Celts also had jet propulsion and cold fusion at least since Roman times. Mr. Turovsky, You are quite correct. The Celts were giants and a Celt's fart could propel him to the moon. Must be acorn diet, fueled by pre-noon mead. An early harpist is one who arises at sun up. Like the early lute it was a melody instrument. Where did you come up with this tid-bit? Polyphony came upon the musicians as a development, a social and musical development. And what do you mean by this? I respectfully request a truce, and I suggest that some of the responses would agree. You can't have a truce in absence of a war. You came out of woodwork to one of the lute lists (John Buckman's I think) with some statement that was so outlandish, that it was actually dangerous for newbies, and you keep churning out more and more irrelevant bits of misinformation, neo-Celtic platitudes and urban mythology. This is insufficient for a war. At least MO had his facts more or less straight, and knew to hedge his bets most of the time. Argument is best served when it is valid, and each side can accept a point, or even move. I have already done so (even though you may detect that my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek). I think it might be your toe. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Wire strings
It doesn't matter whether wire strings could have been made a thousand years ago, or two or three thousand. It doesn't matter whether the lute came from the hunter's bowstring in his cave by stopping the string, or if that was the harp by adding more strings to the bow and becoming a pure musician, to be supported for his aesthetic value by the real hunters who got the game. Actually none of what you say matters, history isn't a perfect document, and as I said in another message it isn't always linear. I think we can both I feel a bit out of my own depth as a newcomer to the lute. I feel that I should be careful in what I say Should we hold our breath??? I believe I know you sir, I've known many of you over the years. A lack of imagination, and an antagonism to imagination. A fixation on a particular skill, perhaps born of imagined deprivation. Sigh You, sir, are the titan of lute music, I accept that. I thank you, even without deserving the honor. You have defined yourself as such. Now just let the rest of us enjoy the dialogue of learning among ourselves - we are not so perfect on lute music, but we may have some other virtues. It is just not possible to have a dialog with large quantity of blarney. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Wire strings
__ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 04:05:36 -0500 To: Bonnie Shaljean [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Wire strings then someone might have beaten it thinner. The making of metal linkages goes back a long way, key bolts for stone structures go back 3000 years. Let us not assume that some old boy didn't make wire, whatever that is. (When does a long thin piece of metal stop being a bar and become wire? I guess when you can bend it and sew something together with it.) OK, drawn wire. Malleable metals have the ability to take shape when drawn through an orifice. That makes for a more consistant wire than a beaten one. But early gut strings, made by twisting cat gut (whether from a sheep or pig, or whatever) were inconsistant in longitudinal density, as was beaten wire. In fact I'll make a guess here, I think it was probably easier to make a consistant beaten wire than a consistEnt gut. Put the wire under tension and use a light hammer to pound out the thick points. Take a guitar string and try it. But that is just a guess as I haven't tried it. But we do know that once the gut is twisted the anomalies in the guage (density) will be locked into it. I state the thesis that string making was an art, not a science. And that making wire strings might have been easier than gut. If this were less silly it would have been better to refer it to professional stringmakers. But as it is... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: early recordings
bill kilpatrick wrote: i repeat that recordings of the lute/guitar instrument popular in germany before the war should be plentiful and could prove useful as the playing technique for these shouldn't have differed greatly from the lute proper. If by lute proper you mean the lute as it was built and played from 1500 to 1800, your assumption is incorrect. The lute-like instruments popular in Germany early in the century were not built or played like historical lutes. The people building and playing them did not know a fraction as much as most of us know about the historical lute, and were not really concerned with recreating historical lute music. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: early recordings
i repeat that recordings of the lute/guitar instrument popular in germany before the war should be plentiful and could prove useful as the playing technique for these shouldn't have differed greatly from the lute proper. If by lute proper you mean the lute as it was built and played from 1500 to 1800, your assumption is incorrect. The lute-like instruments popular in Germany early in the century were not built or played like historical lutes. The people building and playing them did not know a fraction as much as most of us know about the historical lute, and were not really concerned with recreating historical lute music. HP True, notwithstanding a few examples of rather historical lute manufacture in the late 19th, early 20th cent. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
time and place
as a minor diversion to the big contest shaping up in center ring ... ladiees and gem'en ... we played at a castle up in chianti last weekend for large group of medical people from spain. what it involved was walking around between the tables, strumming my charango as they yelled at each other - the volume level of their conversation was tremendous. however, i learned two things: 1 - castanets come in male and female pairs; one gets played with two fingers and the other with three but I didn't learn which gets which as my rhythm section wandered off, shortly after gleaning this bit of information from one of the guests, totally absorbed in the movement of her fingers. 2 - it really doesn't matter what you play so long as the setting is right and you're wearing tights. i discovered this to be true when i strolled out into a courtyard of the castle and - as no one appeared to be in the immediate vicinity - surreptitiously launched into a golden oldie i'd heard on the radio during the drive up to the castle; oh where, oh where can my baby be? the lord took her away from me ... after i picked out the basic melody, slowed it down a bit, gave it a few estampie-like flourishes ... i have to say, it worked. i don't suppose a liberty like this is available to someone busking in a shopping mall in des moines; to people more or less familiar with 1950's rock n' roll but to a bunch of spanish doctors, imbibing their fair share of the provincial beverage in medieval tuscany, it worked a treat! another thing ... one of the guests asked me what my instrument was and when i gave him my charango-as-vihuela spiel he said that he thought it came from morocco - which is absolutely correct. and, at the end of the meal, as the guests were filing out of the banquet hall and as my partner and i were well into a melody of songs from llibre vermeil, one of the guests who had stopped to listen suddenly joined in singing cuncti simus with us in an absolutely beautifully clear voice. how often does it happen that someone from the audience does that? pax - bill = and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: early recordings
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i repeat that recordings of the lute/guitar instrument popular in germany before the war should be plentiful and could prove useful as the playing technique for these shouldn't have differed greatly from the lute proper. If by lute proper you mean the lute as it was built and played from 1500 to 1800, your assumption is incorrect. The lute-like instruments popular in Germany early in the century were not built or played like historical lutes. The people building and playing them did not know a fraction as much as most of us know about the historical lute, and were not really concerned with recreating historical lute music. HP True, notwithstanding a few examples of rather historical lute manufacture in the late 19th, early 20th cent. RT fab! ... - i thought we were talking about where people placed their pinkies and whether they played close to or away from the bridge. - presumably, the technique for playing medium to large, bowl backed, lute family instruments in a european context is the same for one as another. - if not, are there audio samples which demonstrate the difference(s) and can we hear them via the internet? this is not meant as contentious but do you think the people who played the lutes that we consider as historical knew as much about them as some of us do? - william = and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: early recordings
i repeat that recordings of the lute/guitar instrument popular in germany before the war should be plentiful and could prove useful as the playing technique for these shouldn't have differed greatly from the lute proper. If by lute proper you mean the lute as it was built and played from 1500 to 1800, your assumption is incorrect. The lute-like instruments popular in Germany early in the century were not built or played like historical lutes. The people building and playing them did not know a fraction as much as most of us know about the historical lute, and were not really concerned with recreating historical lute music. HP True, notwithstanding a few examples of rather historical lute manufacture in the late 19th, early 20th cent. RT fab! ... - i thought we were talking about where people placed their pinkies and whether they played close to or away from the bridge. - presumably, the technique for playing medium to large, bowl backed, lute family instruments in a european context is the same for one as another. No, it's not. Wandervogel-laute has nothing to do with lute-proper in terms of playing. this is not meant as contentious but do you think the people who played the lutes that we consider as historical knew as much about them as some of us do? - william VERY, VERY few. Definitely insufficient to make a generalization. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: early recordings
bill kilpatrick wrote: presumably, the technique for playing medium to large, bowl backed, lute family instruments in a european context is the same for one as another. The presumption is not only incorrect but unnecessary, since empirically we know that the techniques vary widely. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: early recordings
- presumably, the technique for playing medium to large, bowl backed, lute family instruments in a european context is the same for one as another. No, it's not. Wandervogel-laute has nothing to do with lute-proper in terms of playing. how different? ... posture? ... finger placement? know where i can hear a sample of the difference? - helmut = and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Dawn Culbertson
To all on the lute list, It gives me great sadness to announce to the lute net that Dawn Culbertson passed away. She was a contributor to this list occasionally, was a lutenist in the Baltiomore area, and was a current board member of the lute Society of America. I liked Dawn very much, and I recall spending time with her this summer at the LSA festival in Cleveland. She loved the lute, and was kind and enthusiastic person. I do not know what else to say, other than I am very sad about it. Ed Martin X-Ironport-AV: i=3.87,113,1099285200; d=scan'208; a=456942904:sNHT14158260 : :: : ::: : : Subject: sad news this weekend Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:59:25 -0600 : X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: sad news this weekend Thread-Index: AcTUka9iCtIolCZXTAKOrl/OyqZcKg== From: Hoban, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Nancy Carlin [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Michael Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Nov 2004 14:59:25.0722 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFC0EFA0:01C4D491] I just received some sad news that Dawn Culbertson has passed away. I thought you might want to pass this information along to the lute community. I am copying in the message below, that I received from the English Country Dance list. Best, Dorrie P.S. Thank you for the info on the 2006 Lute Fest [message from English Country Dance list] Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:03:44 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Dawn Culbuertson Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dawn Culbertson, a participant and contributor to this list, collapsed and died at the Baltimore Folk Music Society Thanksgiving night dance in Baltimore on Thursday, November 25th. She had Thanksgiving diner with several friends in the folk community, arrived near the end of the dance, and danced a few contra dances. While chatting after the dance, she slumped to the floor. She received immediate emergency assistance, but it seems likely that she had died immediately. She was 53. Dawn called English country dance, played recorders and lute for ECD (in another persona, she played punk lute), danced, and sang. In honor of this year's cicada visit, she choreographed and wrote the music to a dance called Cicadas. She was a journalist and wrote perceptive music reviews. Mike Franch Baltimore, Md. USA Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
more lieder
Just added #75: Der Müllerin Verrat, a Romanze by Goethe Reichardt, for bass and baroque lute. at http://www.polyhymnion.org/lieder/german.html Enjoy, RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Martin and Ed, historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical. Do you really think that one could play with basses with a 1N or more less tended than the other strings? It contrasts with all historical tutorials we have. They all say that the tactile sensation must be the same on all the courses and I wholeheartedly agree with them. If there was a problem with the basses' tension surely they would have talked about this but actually they said to keep the tension costant more or less. I think that for 6c a regular gut string particularly twisted as could be Gamut Pystoys or Aquila Venice is OK. They are not roped but are like 3-4 thin regular twisted strings twisted again together, when the gut is still wet, and then polished to the right gauge. This kind of strings works very well for the V and VI courses of my Renaissance lute but of course one should not expect a very brilliant tone, like a wound string of course, and there is no reason to think that a so much brighter bass is actually better and that it was actually historical. I never had problem in stopping them together with the plain gut octaves as someone said to have, it's just a matter of developing a habit. For deeper strings the only solution is to found a working technology to load a gut string. Perhaps we haven't found the right one and I agree that the Aquila loaded strings were almost unusable due to the problems of intonation but I think in the past they did in some way. For Baroque lute there are some remnants of original strings (ask Mimmo Peruffo for this) that show they used demi-filee strings. For the transitional period when wound string were still not used who knows. There is need for more experiments, but I would surely draw out any hypothesis of different tensions amongst courses, just for musical reason. Francesco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Francesco, I did not imply that for the basses that less tension was used. I think for the baroque lute, less tension overall on the entire instrument is the most logical possibility, not just for the basses. I agree that the gimped or Pistoy is a much better sound that a roped (i.e., catline) string. For the basses of baroque lutes, we still do not have all the answers, if loaded gut was used, or not. I have also seen / played some convincingly good loaded strings, but it is not known if they are historical. Best wishes, ed At 12:14 AM 11/28/2004 +0100, Francesco Tribioli wrote: Dear Martin and Ed, historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical. Do you really think that one could play with basses with a 1N or more less tended than the other strings? It contrasts with all historical tutorials we have. They all say that the tactile sensation must be the same on all the courses and I wholeheartedly agree with them. If there was a problem with the basses' tension surely they would have talked about this but actually they said to keep the tension costant more or less. I think that for 6c a regular gut string particularly twisted as could be Gamut Pystoys or Aquila Venice is OK. They are not roped but are like 3-4 thin regular twisted strings twisted again together, when the gut is still wet, and then polished to the right gauge. This kind of strings works very well for the V and VI courses of my Renaissance lute but of course one should not expect a very brilliant tone, like a wound string of course, and there is no reason to think that a so much brighter bass is actually better and that it was actually historical. I never had problem in stopping them together with the plain gut octaves as someone said to have, it's just a matter of developing a habit. For deeper strings the only solution is to found a working technology to load a gut string. Perhaps we haven't found the right one and I agree that the Aquila loaded strings were almost unusable due to the problems of intonation but I think in the past they did in some way. For Baroque lute there are some remnants of original strings (ask Mimmo Peruffo for this) that show they used demi-filee strings. For the transitional period when wound string were still not used who knows. There is need for more experiments, but I would surely draw out any hypothesis of different tensions amongst courses, just for musical reason. Francesco Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
R: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Ed, ah, ok, but then you should tune at a lower pitch because they hadn't string thinner than 0.40mm. In any case I'm wondering if there were instrument built and used for playing in consorts and instruments built for solo and if they actually used different tuning (meaning the chantarelle pitch). There are historical instrument, especially swan neck, that have pretty long diapasons to be used at the usual pitch and they where used also often for continuo. Unfortunately continuo parts haven't tablature so no one knows how they actually played them. If existed instruments with different pitch it's strange in any case that there is never a lute concert in which the tablature part implies this. Another area, perhaps, in which more musicological research would be very commendable. Francesco -Messaggio originale- Da: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Inviato: domenica 28 novembre 2004 0.27 A: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Edward Martin'; 'Martin Shepherd'; 'Lute Net' Oggetto: Re: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Dear Francesco, I did not imply that for the basses that less tension was used. I think for the baroque lute, less tension overall on the entire instrument is the most logical possibility, not just for the basses. I agree that the gimped or Pistoy is a much better sound that a roped (i.e., catline) string. For the basses of baroque lutes, we still do not have all the answers, if loaded gut was used, or not. I have also seen / played some convincingly good loaded strings, but it is not known if they are historical. Best wishes, ed To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Wire strings
I meant to send this to the group: To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Cameron) Subject: Re: Wire strings In your estimate (permitting the possibility of quality sufficient for a musical string), what would it take in terms of man-days to produce 1 meter of 0.3 mm bronze string ? RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban I haven't a clue. I figure it would take me several months of hard work to develop a reasonably effective procedure for doing this, and then I could give you some kind of estimate. But, even though I'm a fairly competent craftsman, I would not pretend that I had acquired more than a fraction of the skill and knowledge of the stringmaker who supplied Brian Boru's harper. David Cameron To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
