Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Antonio Corona]

No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation
whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew how
to name the instruments they made.

Antonio



 --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 
>  --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de
> violeros",
> > that is, the regulations of the guild of
> > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first
> > published
> > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for
> the 
> > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must
> > surely
> > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was
> > certainly
> > flourishing at the time.
> 
> 
> any mention of the word "charango" or were the poor
> deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela de
> manos under the wrong name?
> 
> what news of the vihuela society?
> 
> - bill
> 
> =
> "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of
> a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero
> (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra
> Joseph of San Buenaventura.  go to: 
> http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm
> 
> 
>   
>   
>   
>
___
> 
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even
> more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>  



___ 
Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger 
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com



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Re: Renaissance america

[gary digman]

Dear Roman;
 "Noam Chomsky is the biggest senile idiot  that ever lived..."?  On 
what have you based this diagnosis? Or is this just your way of saying you 
disagree with his analysis? Such drama.
 All the Best,
 Gary Digman

- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Renaissance america


>> had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay 
>> the 10
>> 000 dollars per year to get higher education. Then also "normal" citizen
>> society never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night 
>> on
>> TV philosophers, all government figures, artists, writers, free 
>> journalists,
>> anthropologists, etc, engaging in free uncensured discussion while in the 
>> US
>> extremely popular writers like Naom Chomsky, for example, has gotten 0 
>> (zero)
>> minutes TV time durring his entire life and twice 5 minutes radio time
> NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that 
> he
> doesn't get any more airtime.
> RT
> -- 
> http://polyhymnion.org/torban
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> 

Re: Renaissance america

[Howard Posner]

While I find these remarks insightful -- except for the part about the
dominance of the religious and military, the part about Shakespeare and
Dowland (who were both dead before there were more than a handful of
European settlers in North America), and the parts about the praying seven
hours a day, the only education being religious, the burnings at the stake
(burning  at the stake happened in enlightened Europe, not in colonial North
America), the Amish (who didn't come to America until the mid-18th century),
the cost of higher education in America (two years ago, it cost about $1,800
for a California resident to attend a California State University, but
that's gone up since we got an Austrian immigrant governor who sees higher
education as a way to cut the budget deficit), and Noam Chomsky (not an
"extremely popular author" but a linguistics professor , who I've seen on
television more than once); the confusion of two centuries, nearly all
post-Renaissance, into one nondescript sort of Time That Never Was, and your
confusion of several different colonial cultures with a one-dimensional
caricature of the Massachusetts Bay Colony -- you should consider that in a
group of lute players, there will be readers who have actually studied
history, as you evidently have not, so you might want to check your facts
occasionally.  

Carry on...

rosinfiorini wrote:

> I think too it was tough and somehow as if regressing in time: the most
> dominant aspects of society at these times were the religious and the
> military. Regressing, because, imagine, even in England, France and Germany
> etc, there was renaissance: this meant putting culture, poetry, arts in high
> status. Such a wonderful and poetic creations in the times of Shakespeare or
> Dowland and his songwriters--while in the "new world" people prayed sweating
> in churches seven hours a day and "heretics" were expelled in the forests (the
> first trappers i guess-hehe), and in some places witches burnt. When i look at
> amish today i imagine i get a little of the scent of the mental schemes and
> climat that rulled then. I red these accounts by someone from there at this
> time and it was really stagnating and oppressive. They said, education was
> compulsarry but the only education there was was religious (and pretty
> severe). They had these guys jesuits creating even religious universities.
> I always thought it is sick that i can study in France in institutions of high
> education of superb quality for 200 dollars yearly,  while my friends in US
> had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay the 10
> 000 dollars per year to get higher education. Then also "normal" citizen
> society never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night on
> TV philosophers, all government figures, artists, writers, free journalists,
> anthropologists, etc, engaging in free uncensured discussion while in the US
> extremely popular writers like Naom Chomsky, for example, has gotten 0 (zero)
> minutes TV time durring his entire life and twice 5 minutes radio time--one of
> which was interrupted..He gets his media time better in Canada (free
> country:)I don't know for when was Leonard Cohen singing "democracy is comming
> to the usa"-lol. But he's for sure is in some gestapo Black List for "daring"
> :)  
> One thing (among many other) is cool for sure though-enourmous body of
> scottish and irish dance music survived (and never died) in the new continent.



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Re: Re: Italian Christmas Songs

[rosinfiorini]

Hi Stewart,
This is a page with a few:
http://www.italianfolkmusic.com/xmas.html
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr 


--

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Article on String making

[Edward Martin]

The article mentioned about Dan Larson's site is very interesting.  It is 
even more interesting to see the actual process in his string 
shop.  Magnificent.

ed



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202





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article-gut string making

[rosinfiorini]

Here is this interesting article i came across--about hte process of gut string 
making:
http://www.daniellarson.com/article.htm
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr 


--

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Article on String making

[rosinfiorini]

yeah, just red it complete-really interesting--almost temting one to try make a 
set or too:) there's lots of drying and waiting too, and lots of subtle feeling 
and skill-twisting, temperatures etc.
Just when i red this now i remembered something i had forgotten about: some 
time ago we were at this antiquity shop and there was this bizzare harp, looked 
like predecessor of the "classical" harps-it was small but it had already the 
seven pedals with all kinds of levers passing through its shoulder bar. The 
strings were small ropes of some material like linen and were 'waxed'. I think 
it was bee wax. wander if it was normal practice..



The article mentioned about Dan Larson's site is very interesting. It is 
> even more interesting to see the actual process in his string 
> shop. Magnificent.
> 
> ed
> 
> 
> 
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> voice: (218) 728-1202
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr 


--

Re: Re: Renaissance america

[rosinfiorini]

> NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that he
> doesn't get any more airtime.
> RT

*
oh, really, and why this judgement? do you think he doesn't get air time 
because he is 'senile' idiot, or because of other reasons?
i've listen to him on arecording talking about why and how there is no free 
mass media in US and why and how the rulers and the corporations make sure that 
nothing that is contraversial or threatens them comes out in the nationally 
diffused media, etc, and he didn't say a thing that was senile or idiotic. It 
was clear, impersonal analisys. But may-be i'm not familiar with his other, 
senile, aspects, which are?
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr 


--

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Re: sarmaticae

[Roman Turovsky]

One more (#5)
RT
> And 2 more (4 & 25)
> RT
>> And 4 more (20-24).
>> RT
>>> There is a new 6-course item (sarmatica #19)
>>> at
>>> http://polyhymnion.org/torban/torban4.html
>>> Enjoy,
>>> RT



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Re: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

> had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay the 10
> 000 dollars per year to get higher education. Then also "normal" citizen
> society never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night on
> TV philosophers, all government figures, artists, writers, free journalists,
> anthropologists, etc, engaging in free uncensured discussion while in the US
> extremely popular writers like Naom Chomsky, for example, has gotten 0 (zero)
> minutes TV time durring his entire life and twice 5 minutes radio time
NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that he
doesn't get any more airtime.
RT
-- 
http://polyhymnion.org/torban




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Re: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

> get a little of the scent of the mental schemes and climat that rulled then. I
> red these accounts by someone from there at this time and it was really
> stagnating and oppressive. They said, education was compulsarry but the only
> education there was was religious (and pretty severe). They had these guys
> jesuits creating even religious universities.
Rosin, you should read up on Piarists' and Jesuits' contribution to
education before saying anything
RT



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Re: Re: Renaissance america

[Wayne Cripps]

Dudes!

If you want neusidler, I have neusidler - a major chunk of one of
his instruction books.  Starts out real easy!

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?neusidler.EinNew

Wayne
 

> 
> 
> 
> Dear Timothy
> 
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, timothy motz wrote:
> 
> > Anyone know any easy
> > (really easy) but interesting music for a beginner?  No more than two
> > voices, open strings on the second voice?  Not too many shifts?  I'm
> > still working my way through the early chapters of Damiani's tutor
> > but it's nice to have something else to play.  My knowledge of the
> > available music is pretty meager.
> 
> I think you should find some H. Newsidler. He actually composed music
> for lute students! In Wayne's archives
>   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi
> I can find only one piece:
> http://www3.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/doit.cgi?Misc_German/Newsidles_Preambel.pdf
> 
> But I have seen - and also printed - the whole book for students by 
> Newsidler, very useful and good pieces also for a beginner lutenist!
> Perhaps someone in the list is able to give Timothy the link?
> 
> All the best
> 
> Arto
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Re: thanks to all who replied

[adS]

Joe Helmick wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who replied to my recent question.  Many of you
> asked what piece I'm transcribing.
> 
> It's off the CD entitled "Ronn McFarlane The Renaissance Lute" Dorian
> Records DOR-90186
> 
> The piece is labeled John Come Kiss Me Now (4:10) Anon. Cozens lute
> book c.1600)
> 
> I'm transcribing it from the recording because I cannot find the
> music.
> 
> I'm about 2/3 done with the piece, and there is only one section so
> far that's really given me trouble (hard to make out the bass line in
> one passage), so I think I'm doing pretty well, considering :)
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
I have a copy of the so-called Cozens lute book - in my list it appears as 3056.

I can scan the pages in question and send them. Frankly speaking I will probably
not enter the tablature - 4:10 is a bit long :)

Rainer


PS

I think I even have a film...

Re: Re: Renaissance america

[rosinfiorini]

> > Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in
> > North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and
> > there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. Musical
> > instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by emigrating
> > colonists.

I think too it was tough and somehow as if regressing in time: the most 
dominant aspects of society at these times were the religious and the military. 
Regressing, because, imagine, even in England, France and Germany etc, there 
was renaissance: this meant putting culture, poetry, arts in high status. Such 
a wonderful and poetic creations in the times of Shakespeare or Dowland and his 
songwriters--while in the "new world" people prayed sweating in churches seven 
hours a day and "heretics" were expelled in the forests (the first trappers i 
guess-hehe), and in some places witches burnt. When i look at amish today i 
imagine i get a little of the scent of the mental schemes and climat that 
rulled then. I red these accounts by someone from there at this time and it was 
really stagnating and oppressive. They said, education was compulsarry but the 
only education there was was religious (and pretty severe). They had these guys 
jesuits creating even religious universities.
I always thought it is sick that i can study in France in institutions of high 
education of superb quality for 200 dollars yearly,  while my friends in US had 
to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay the 10 000 
dollars per year to get higher education. Then also "normal" citizen society 
never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night on TV 
philosophers, all government figures, artists, writers, free journalists, 
anthropologists, etc, engaging in free uncensured discussion while in the US 
extremely popular writers like Naom Chomsky, for example, has gotten 0 (zero) 
minutes TV time durring his entire life and twice 5 minutes radio time--one of 
which was interrupted..He gets his media time better in Canada (free country:)I 
don't know for when was Leonard Cohen singing "democracy is comming to the 
usa"-lol. But he's for sure is in some gestapo Black List for "daring" :)  
One thing (among many other) is cool for sure though-enourmous body of scottish 
and irish dance music survived (and never died) in the new continent.
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr 


--

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RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe

[Fossum, Arthur]

-Original Message-
From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:42 PM
In Briceno's method for Spanish guitar there are numerous passacalles
with lyrics !!? published 1626. I am not sure if this is important (my
Spanish is terrible, and my favorite translator is not available) After
listing 12 passacalles(different progressions) he writes "Estos son las
Pasacalles contenidos en la Guitarra con ellos se cantaran toda suerte
de tonos Espanoles y Franceses graves y agudos"

So passacalles in France and Spain in early 17th century. Was it dance
first like the Allemande then stylized movement?  In 1626 it was not
between strophes in a song , but had lyrics of its own.



I am pretty sure I have another source... which I am currently looking
for... from around the same time that lists passacalles as a 'Baile'...
but I have been wrong in the past :)



-Arthur




To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe


>>=20
>> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's  Choregraphie from
1713?

Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly
an=
 outgrowth of its use in stage and/or chamber music:

"In France the Hispanic-Italian passacaglia, like the chaconne, was=
 transformed during the mid-17th century into a distinctive native
genre,=
 although before that the genre had already had some impact as an
exotic=
 Spanish import. A passacalle(in the earlier sense of ritornello) occurs
in=
 an air to a Spanish text by De Bailly (1614), and in 1623 the Spanish=
 expatriate Luis de Bri=E7e=F1o published in Paris a guitar method that=
 included in chord tablature brief chaconnes and passacaglias similar to
the=
 early Italian examples

-SNIP -



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Italian Christmas Songs

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Lino, Donatella, and Bill,

Thank you all very much indeed for your help in my quest for
Christmas carols in Italian. I needed the songs this evening for an
informal gathering of people studying the Italian language. I have
just returned home. The songs were sung lustily by all present to
the accompaniment of my guitar. It was extremely successful.

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "Donatella Galletti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: Italian Christmas Songs


> Dear Stewart,
>
> here is what I found. The first three songs are commonly sung at
Christmas,
> I don't know about the last one. If you digit "canti di Natale.
testi-
> musica" on Google, I think you'll find more.
> Any willing Sautscheck to put them for the lute?
>
> Donatella
>
> http://web.tiscali.it/awebd
>
>
> Tu scendi dalle stelle
>
> Tu scendi dalle stelle o Re del cielo,
> e vieni in una grotta al freddo e al gelo,
> e vieni in una grotta al freddo e al gelo.
> O Bambino mio divino, io ti vedo qui a tremar.
> O Dio beato!
> Ah! Quanto ti costò l'avermi amato.
> Ah! Quanto ti costò l'avermi amato.
>
> A te che sei del mondo il Creatore,
> mancano i panni e il fuoco, o mio Signore.
> Mancano i panni e il fuoco, o mio Signore.
> Caro eletto pargoletto, quanta questa povertà
> più mi innamora, giacchè ti fece amor povero ancora.
> Giacchè ti fece amor povero ancora.
>
> Tu lasci del tuo Padre il divin seno,
> per venire a tremar su questo fieno;
> per venire a tremar su questo fieno.
> Caro eletto del mio petto, dove amor ti trasportò!
> O Gesù mio, perchè tanto patir, per amor mio...
>
> http://www.taccuinodiviaggio.it/ricorrenze/canti-di-natale.htm
>
>
> Astro del ciel
>
> Astro del ciel, Pargol divin, mite Agnello Redentor!
> Tu che i Vati da lungi sognar, tu che angeliche voci nunziar,
> luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
> luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
>
> Astro del ciel, Pargol divin, mite Agnello Redentor!
> Tu di stirpe regale decor, Tu virgineo, mistico fior,
> luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
> Luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
>
> Astro del ciel, Pargol divin, mite Agnello Redentor!
> Tu disceso a scontare l'error, Tu sol nato a parlare d'amor,
> luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
> Luce dona alle genti, pace infondi nei cuor!
>
>
> Venite fedeli
>
> Venite Fedeli, l'angelo ci invita, venite, venite a Betlemme.
> Nasce per noi Cristo Salvatore.
> Venite adoriamo, venite adoriamo, venite adoriamo il Signore Gesù.
> La luce del mondo brilla in una grotta; la fede di guida a
Betlemme.
> La notte resplende, tutto il mondo attende: seguiamo i pastori a
Betlemme.
> Il Figlio di Dio, Re dell'universo, si è fatto Bambino a Betlemme.
> "Sia gloria nei cieli, pace sulla terra", un angelo annunzia a
Betlemme
>
>
>
>   http://digilander.libero.it/viaconforti/natale/canzoni.htm
>
> Bianco Natale
>
> Tu neve scendi ancor, lenta
> per dar la gioia ad ogni cuor:
> è Natale, spunta la Pace Santa,
> l' Amor che sa conquistar
> Tu dici nel cader, neve:
> "Il cielo devi ringraziar
> alza gli occhi, guarda lassù:
> è Natale, non si soffre più"
>
>
>
http://www.quantomanca.com/speciale/Natale_2000/musicbox/musicbox2.h
tm#tunev
> e
>
> Din Don Dan
> Scende giù dal ciel
> su tutta la città
> un candido mantel
> che la ricoprirà,
> la stella annuncerà:
> è nato un bambinel
> nella vecchia stalla
> tra la mucca e l' asinel.
>
> Din don dan, din don dan
> che felicità!
> Il Natale cambierà,
> tutti buoni renderà!
>
> Din don dan, din don dan
> din don, din don dan!
> Oggi é nato il buon Gesù
> tra la neve che vien giù.
>
> La renna al Polo Nord
> scampanellando va,
> le strenne porterà
> a tutti i bimbi buoni.
> E dalle Alpi al mar,
> i bimbi di quaggiù
> aspettano quei doni
> che regala il buon Gesù
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:26 PM
> Subject: Italian Christmas Songs
>
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Off topic, I'm afraid, but hopefully someone might be able to
help
> > me in my hour of need.
> >
> > Please could someone provide me with the Italian words for some
> > well-known Christmas carols and/or songs. Things like We Three
> > Kings, Jingle Bells, Silent Night, that sort of thing, but in
> > Italian, not English. I need about half a dozen.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Stewart McCoy.
> >
> >
>




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RE: chasse a la chacone

[Alain Veylit]

Hi all,
-Sébastien de Brossard (died 1730), gives the following definition for a 
chacone in his Musical dictionary:
Chacone: A kind of dance in the air of a saraband, derived from the Moors. 
The bass always consists of 4 notes, which proceed in conjoint degrees, 
wherin they make divers concords and copulets with the same burden.
The word is formed of the Italian ciacona or cecone, a blind man, this air 
being said to have been invented by such a one.

His definition of the passacaglio:
A passacaglio is properly no more than a chacone. The only difference 
between them is that the movement of this is somewhat graver, the tune 
softer, and the expression less lively: they are for the most part in the 
less modes or flat keys; wherin the third from its final is flat.

This seems to fits the difference between Bach's passacaglia in C for organ 
and his chacone from the D-minor suite for violin at least in the 
difference of tempo and mood. I suppose "less modes or flat keys" are what 
we call minor modes today...

De Brossart alludes to the syncopation, but only in the article on 
sarabande, saying: it is a dance ..that usually ends when the hands that 
beats rises.

Isn't there an italian word like "caccia" meaning "chase" or hunt?
Alain



At 11:41 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote:

> >>=20
> >> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's  Choregraphie from 1713?
>
>Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly an=
>  outgrowth of its use in stage and/or chamber music:
>
>"In France the Hispanic-Italian passacaglia, like the chaconne, was=
>  transformed during the mid-17th century into a distinctive native genre,=
>  although before that the genre had already had some impact as an exotic=
>  Spanish import. A passacalle(in the earlier sense of ritornello) occurs in=
>  an air to a Spanish text by De Bailly (1614), and in 1623 the Spanish=
>  expatriate Luis de Bri=E7e=F1o published in Paris a guitar method that=
>  included in chord tablature brief chaconnes and passacaglias similar to the=
>  early Italian examples. During the 1640s the promotion of Italian music and=
>  musicians by Cardinal Mazarin brought wider familiarity with the two genres=
>  in their newer incarnations. A harpsichord passacaglia by Luigi Rossi (who=
>  visited Paris in 1646 and whose Orfeo was performed there the following=
>  year) enjoyed wide manuscript circulation. Francesco Corbetta, who settled=
>  in Paris around 1648 and became guitar teacher to the future Louis XIV, was=
>  perhaps the greatest Italian guitar virtuoso of his time, and the composer=
>  of numerous chaconnes and passacaglias.
>
>By the late 1650s the French passacaglia tradition was firmly in place,=
>  already showing many of the characteristics that would mark the genre=
>  during the later 17th century and the 18th. Like the chaconne, the=
>  passacaglia was cultivated both in chamber music, especially by guitarists,=
>  lutenists and keyboard players, and on the musical stage."   (New Grove)
>
>This page from Kellom Tomlinson's dance treatise shows the steps for a=
>  passacaille.  the accompanying music is not the bass line but a melody.
>Caroline
>http://www.bllearning.co.uk/live-extracts/108337/=20
>*
>Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator
>613-8155, Box 91000
>
>--
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: Question about lute courses/strings

[bill kilpatrick]

as one who gets most of his music from listening to
other people's recordings i have to admit that what
you say makes good sense.  if you want to improve as a
musician you must speak the language.

on the other hand, in terms of a genuine, historic
method of learning a new piece, i would suggest that
listening to an other person's recording and playing
along is the modern equivalent of sitting down and
playing with someone better in order to learn - a
musical manuscript, i would suggest, was the exception
for most musicians in the past, not the rule. 

allan alexander at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~guitarandlute/

has prepared some excellent cd recordings with booklet
in notation and tablature form.  very good for those
of us without access to traditional instruction.

- bill

--- Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 
> Dear Paolo,
> 
> No doubt people at the time of the Renaissance did
> all sorts of
> silly things, but there's no reason why we should
> copy everything
> they did. Making mistakes is not normally worthy of
> imitation.
> 
> Relying on one's ears or one's memory no doubt
> accounts for many of
> the errors which found their way into copies of
> music in the past.
> You have only to read what Thomas Morley and John
> Dowland wrote
> about imperfect copies, to understand the
> frustration musicians
> experienced long ago, while working with bad copies.
> Look at the
> marginalia of Sir Nicholas Lestrange in his viol
> manuscripts to
> appreciate his desperate attempt at salvaging
> something approaching
> a reliable text.
> 
> Listening to records to learn music may have some
> merit. One learns
> to listen attentively. I did it myself over 30 years
> ago, listening
> to records of banjo music slowed down to sound like
> five-string
> double basses. It was a painstaking time-consuming
> process, but I
> had no choice, because I couldn't get hold of the
> written music. I
> think I would have become a better player, if I'd
> spent all that
> time practising, instead of crouching over a record
> player or tape
> recorder. If the music is available in print, why
> not use it?
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Stewart.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "sam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "lute" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re:Question about lute courses/strings
> 
> 
> > Even if a personal trascription by ear is near the
> practice of the
> Renaissance, or not?
> >
> > Paolo
> >
> >
> > > Dear Joe,
> > >
> > > It is easier to get hold of the music than
> transcribe it by ear
> from
> > > a record.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  

=
"and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don 
Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph 
of San Buenaventura.  go to:  http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm



___ 
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http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Re: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe

[Howard Posner]

Caroline Usher wrote:

> The passacaglia is not a dance.

Arthur Fossum wrote:

> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's  Choregraphie from 1713?

Probably because it was a dance at the time.  If a musical form hangs around
for a century or two, any statement about what it "is" will be perilous.
"Symphony," "sonata," and "concerto" all meant something different in 1750
than they did in 1600.  "Ciaccona" changed meanings several times.

A local musician, for many years the pianist for the Los Angeles
Philharmonic, developed her own working definitions of  "passacaglia" and
"chaconne:" both were ground-bass variations, but in a passacaglia the
ground bass was heard alone at the beginning.  She acknowledged that Bach
wrote passacaglias in which the ground bass was not heard alone at the
beginning, but said that Bach got it wrong.  I'm not sure what use her
definition could have been, even to her, but I never asked.

HP



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RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe

[Caroline Usher]

>>=20
>> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's  Choregraphie from 1713?

Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly an=
 outgrowth of its use in stage and/or chamber music:

"In France the Hispanic-Italian passacaglia, like the chaconne, was=
 transformed during the mid-17th century into a distinctive native genre,=
 although before that the genre had already had some impact as an exotic=
 Spanish import. A passacalle(in the earlier sense of ritornello) occurs in=
 an air to a Spanish text by De Bailly (1614), and in 1623 the Spanish=
 expatriate Luis de Bri=E7e=F1o published in Paris a guitar method that=
 included in chord tablature brief chaconnes and passacaglias similar to the=
 early Italian examples. During the 1640s the promotion of Italian music and=
 musicians by Cardinal Mazarin brought wider familiarity with the two genres=
 in their newer incarnations. A harpsichord passacaglia by Luigi Rossi (who=
 visited Paris in 1646 and whose Orfeo was performed there the following=
 year) enjoyed wide manuscript circulation. Francesco Corbetta, who settled=
 in Paris around 1648 and became guitar teacher to the future Louis XIV, was=
 perhaps the greatest Italian guitar virtuoso of his time, and the composer=
 of numerous chaconnes and passacaglias.

By the late 1650s the French passacaglia tradition was firmly in place,=
 already showing many of the characteristics that would mark the genre=
 during the later 17th century and the 18th. Like the chaconne, the=
 passacaglia was cultivated both in chamber music, especially by guitarists,=
 lutenists and keyboard players, and on the musical stage."   (New Grove)

This page from Kellom Tomlinson's dance treatise shows the steps for a=
 passacaille.  the accompanying music is not the bass line but a melody.
Caroline
http://www.bllearning.co.uk/live-extracts/108337/=20
*
Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator
613-8155, Box 91000

--

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Question about lute courses/strings

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Paolo,

No doubt people at the time of the Renaissance did all sorts of
silly things, but there's no reason why we should copy everything
they did. Making mistakes is not normally worthy of imitation.

Relying on one's ears or one's memory no doubt accounts for many of
the errors which found their way into copies of music in the past.
You have only to read what Thomas Morley and John Dowland wrote
about imperfect copies, to understand the frustration musicians
experienced long ago, while working with bad copies. Look at the
marginalia of Sir Nicholas Lestrange in his viol manuscripts to
appreciate his desperate attempt at salvaging something approaching
a reliable text.

Listening to records to learn music may have some merit. One learns
to listen attentively. I did it myself over 30 years ago, listening
to records of banjo music slowed down to sound like five-string
double basses. It was a painstaking time-consuming process, but I
had no choice, because I couldn't get hold of the written music. I
think I would have become a better player, if I'd spent all that
time practising, instead of crouching over a record player or tape
recorder. If the music is available in print, why not use it?

Best wishes,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "sam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lute" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:29 PM
Subject: Re:Question about lute courses/strings


> Even if a personal trascription by ear is near the practice of the
Renaissance, or not?
>
> Paolo
>
>
> > Dear Joe,
> >
> > It is easier to get hold of the music than transcribe it by ear
from
> > a record.




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Re: Re: Renaissance america

[Arto Wikla]

Dear Timothy

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, timothy motz wrote:

> Anyone know any easy
> (really easy) but interesting music for a beginner?  No more than two
> voices, open strings on the second voice?  Not too many shifts?  I'm
> still working my way through the early chapters of Damiani's tutor
> but it's nice to have something else to play.  My knowledge of the
> available music is pretty meager.

I think you should find some H. Newsidler. He actually composed music
for lute students! In Wayne's archives
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi
I can find only one piece:
http://www3.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/doit.cgi?Misc_German/Newsidles_Preambel.pdf

But I have seen - and also printed - the whole book for students by 
Newsidler, very useful and good pieces also for a beginner lutenist!
Perhaps someone in the list is able to give Timothy the link?

All the best

Arto



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Re: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

>> Anyone know any easy
>>> (really easy) but interesting music for a beginner?  No more than two
>>> voices, open strings on the second voice?  Not too many shifts?
> 
> Tall order, and, I fell compelled to point out, it has nothing to do with
> Stalingrad.
It has, quite a bit, but Kursk rather than Stalingrad. S's paternal
grandfather fell there.
RT
-- 
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Re: Renaissance america

[Howard Posner]

Timothy Motz wrote:

> Anyone know any easy
>> (really easy) but interesting music for a beginner?  No more than two
>> voices, open strings on the second voice?  Not too many shifts?

Tall order, and, I fell compelled to point out, it has nothing to do with
Stalingrad.

Try cruising the web sites that have renaissance lute tab.  Here's a list
that Daniel Shoskes offered last week, though I note that the link to his
own site doesn't work.

http://tabulatura.de/

http://web.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/

http://www.ifrance.com/luth-librairie/

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi

http://cbsr26.ucr.edu//wlkfiles/Folger/DowlandMS.html

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/soc.fr.luth/TLCH_tableau.fg.html

http://www.luteshop.fsnet.co.uk/

http://www.lautenist.de/downloads.html

http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/webtab.html

http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=
dshoskes&templatefn=FileSharing3.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.3.xml&sitefn=
RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en

http://members.aol.com/MWhee40252/music.html

http://remote.science.uva.nl/~walstra/ABCArchive/

http://webpages.charter.net/django/

http://www.lautengesellschaft.de/DLG/Buecher/Tabulaturen/index.htm



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Baroque lute thumb studies?

[Wayne Cripps]

Hi Folks -

  Speaking of starting baroque lute, do any of you know good studies
or exercises to get the right hand thumb going to the correct string?

Wayne



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RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe

[Fossum, Arthur]

> -Original Message-
> From: Fossum, Arthur
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 12:01 PM
> To: 'Caroline Usher'
> Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
> 
> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's  Choregraphie from 1713?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:34 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
> 
> At 10:41 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Obviously as a musical form Ciacona and Passacaglia are different. I
> >think the website is calling them similar as respect to the dance
steps.
> >I would like to know the source as well for " F.A. Ciacone"
> 
> The passacaglia is not a dance.  From the New Grove:
> 
> "The passacaglia appears to have originated in early 17th-century
Spain as
> the pasacalle, a brief improvisation (usually barely more than a few
> rhythmically strummed cadential chords) that guitarists played between
the
> strophes of a song, somewhat in the nature of a vamp. The term comes
from
> pasar (to walk) and calle (street), possibly deriving from outdoor
> performances or from a practice of popular musicians to take a few
steps
> during these interludes. The first references to pasacalles appear in
> Spanish literature in about 1605; in certain contexts the term seems
to
> have been used interchangeably with Paseo."
> 
> Caroline
> *
> Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator
> 613-8155, Box 91000
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe

[Caroline Usher]

At 10:41 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>Obviously as a musical form Ciacona and Passacaglia are different. I
>think the website is calling them similar as respect to the dance steps.
>I would like to know the source as well for " F.A. Ciacone"

The passacaglia is not a dance.  From the New Grove:

"The passacaglia appears to have originated in early 17th-century Spain as the 
pasacalle, a brief improvisation (usually barely more than a few rhythmically 
strummed cadential chords) that guitarists played between the strophes of a 
song, somewhat in the nature of a vamp. The term comes from pasar (to walk) and 
calle (street), possibly deriving from outdoor performances or from a practice 
of popular musicians to take a few steps during these interludes. The first 
references to pasacalles appear in Spanish literature in about 1605; in certain 
contexts the term seems to have been used interchangeably with Paseo."

Caroline 
*
Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator
613-8155, Box 91000

--

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RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

I agree with Caroline, 
Ciaccona is not equal to Passacaglia,  the Sigr. Ciacone is not more palusible 
than Sig.  Passo Emezzo or Ms Folia...

Paolo

> At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia
> >and the new world.
> >
> >http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm
> 
>  From this website:  "The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a 
> Spanish Folk dance but originally came from Italy, created by F. Alfonso 
> Ciacone (1540-1599), a blind Italian composer from about 1560."
> 
> Sgr. Ciacone is unknown to the authors of the New Grove Dictionary of Music 
> and Musicians, the premier reference work in English.  Does anyone have any 
> evidence for his existence?  The Ciacona and the Passacaglia are not the same.
> Caroline
> 
> *
> Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator
> 613-8155, Box 91000
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 




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Re: Re: Renaissance america

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> In reference to some of the messages in this thread, I would ask my
> online friends outside the United States to remember that Bush got a
> bare majority in the last election.  Almost half of the country is
> unhappy about the current state of affairs.  Many - including some of
> the Americans on this listserve - are trying quietly to make things
> better.  So please don't make broad generalizations about America,
> especially if you've never traveled the country. 

Writing from a Berlusconian Italy I am painfully aware of this problem

Paolo




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Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Carl Donsbach]

--On Friday, December 10, 2004 7:27 AM -0800 Howard Posner 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Carl Donsbach wrote:
>
>> Early colonial life was hard!  The early English and Spanish colonies in
>> North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and
>> there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times.
>> Musical instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by
>> emigrating colonists.
>
> I wouldn't be so quick to equate a lack of evidence of large numbers of
> lutes with a lack of music.  It might give you a skewed view of Vienna in
> the 1820's.

Indeed it might... the 19th and 20th centuries more or less planetwide for 
that matter.  I didn't mean to slight the lack of viols, recorders, 
sackbuts, etc.

- Carl Donsbach



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Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Howard Posner]

I thought it might be a spoof, but a visit to the home page, "dedicated to
the dancers of 'West Coast Swing' and its variants" indicates that the
writers are just out of their element.

Caroline Usher wrote:

> At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia
>> and the new world.
>> 
>> http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm
> 
> From this website:  "The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a Spanish
> Folk dance but originally came from Italy, created by F. Alfonso Ciacone
> (1540-1599), a blind Italian composer from about 1560."

The next couple of sentences are even better:

"From there it went on to Guatemala, Mexico via Simon Agudo? which was then
introduced to the public in Tampico, Mexico in 1599 at the wedding for the
King of Spain Phillip III (1578-1621). A few years later it became very
popular in Barcelona, Spain and by 1618 it arrived by mail from the West
Indies to Seville."

"Arrived by mail."  I wish I'd written that.
 
HP







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Re: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

> As others have said, can we get back to lutes? Anyone know any easy
> (really easy) but interesting music for a beginner?  No more than two
> voices, open strings on the second voice?  Not too many shifts?  I'm
> still working my way through the early chapters of Damiani's tutor
> but it's nice to have something else to play.  My knowledge of the
> available music is pretty meager.
> Tim
http://polyhymnion.org/torban/torban4.html
RT



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Re: Re: Renaissance america

[timothy motz]

The bit about Roosevelt ordering radars shut down is incorrect.  The
radars in Hawaii on December 7, 1941 were on and the operators
reported contacts.  The high command at Pearl Harbor didn't trust the
new technology and disregarded the warnings.  In fairness, there had
been false radar contacts before.  This is all well-documented.

In reference to some of the messages in this thread, I would ask my
online friends outside the United States to remember that Bush got a
bare majority in the last election.  Almost half of the country is
unhappy about the current state of affairs.  Many - including some of
the Americans on this listserve - are trying quietly to make things
better.  So please don't make broad generalizations about America,
especially if you've never traveled the country. You would be
sensitive about such over-generalization of your own countries.  

And some of the Americans on this list ought to distinguish between
patriotism and jingoism. 

As others have said, can we get back to lutes? Anyone know any easy
(really easy) but interesting music for a beginner?  No more than two
voices, open strings on the second voice?  Not too many shifts?  I'm
still working my way through the early chapters of Damiani's tutor
but it's nice to have something else to play.  My knowledge of the
available music is pretty meager.

Tim
>
>
> Original Message 
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Re: Renaissance america
>Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:47:21 +0100 (CET)
>
>>
>>
>Did you ever stop to think what this
>>> >>> world would be without America as has evolved?=20
>>*
>>America has not Evolved--Ray Bradbury has evolved, kurt Vonnegut has
>evolve=
>>d, even Bruce Springsteen has evolved, Norman Mailer may-be too, Tom
>Waits =
>>(hehe) etc, etc, you name 'em, there so many but these are saying
>that tren=
>>ds in this continet are suffocating for them because everything
>should be "=
>>product" and art intent aint worth a nickel if it does not sell
>massively a=
>>nd that it is very very tough to find ways to diffuse your creations
>in the=
>>re. I think the key problem in the american mental encoding is to
>consider =
>>greed and arrogance as "virtues" or at least as tollerable
>attitudes. Thats=
>> how such obvious stinks like Swarzenegger can be
>appriciated-through this =
>>trend of mentality. At least there are such brave heartful people
>there tha=
>>t do all the hard work and diffuse early music ,and culture in
>general , th=
>>rough public radios, fundraisings and community activity. No
>culturally-gen=
>>erous French or German state giving there (actually, i don't think
>USA has =
>>a ministry of culture!) =20
>>
>>> >> Actually, VW, the greater portion of this particular credit
>belongs to
>>> >> Russia.
>>> >> RT
>>*
>>No one gave so many lives and blood to fight the fascists as Russia
>as far =
>>as I know.=20
>>The weird thing i learned recently is that the American president
>had a Jap=
>>anese code decoded some days before Pearl Harbour and knew about the
>attack=
>> but needed pretext to enter (highly unpopular at home) war so...he
>ordered=
>> the radars at Pearl Harbour to be shut (radars or
>submarines--someone has =
>>the artickle?) to facilitate the Japanese. They have the
>(unclassified now)=
>> documents somewhere at www.infowars.com
>>--
>>
>>Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=20
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>

RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe

[Fossum, Arthur]

Obviously as a musical form Ciacona and Passacaglia are different. I
think the website is calling them similar as respect to the dance steps.
I would like to know the source as well for " F.A. Ciacone"


 
-Original Message-
From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 9:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia
>and the new world.
>
>http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm

 From this website:  "The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a
Spanish Folk dance but originally came from Italy, created by F. Alfonso
Ciacone (1540-1599), a blind Italian composer from about 1560."

Sgr. Ciacone is unknown to the authors of the New Grove Dictionary of
Music and Musicians, the premier reference work in English.  Does anyone
have any evidence for his existence?  The Ciacona and the Passacaglia
are not the same.
Caroline

*
Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator
613-8155, Box 91000

--

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Re: OT: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

>>> I'm no military historian
>> 
>> Obviously not.
> 
> There's a lot of that going around it seems.
> 
>>> but really, did the Russian accomplishment consist
>>> of anything besides simply absorbing the German assault
>>> (astounding as that may be)?
>> 
>> A minor thing indeed, at the cost 20,000,000.00 lives on the  Russian side
>> alone. 
> 
> And let's not forget that many of those 20M were killed by their Russian
> commanders as they tried to retreat. Most notably at the battle of Stalingrad.
> 
> Craig
500 years from this might be deemed worthy of SCA re-enacments.
RT
-- 
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Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Howard Posner]

Carl Donsbach wrote:

> Early colonial life was hard!  The early English and Spanish colonies in
> North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and
> there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times.  Musical
> instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by emigrating
> colonists.

I wouldn't be so quick to equate a lack of evidence of large numbers of
lutes with a lack of music.  It might give you a skewed view of Vienna in
the 1820's.



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FW: Lute iconography -- French site (on medieval instruments in general)

[Roman Turovsky]

From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
scroll down, maybe there's a few you don't have
 http://www.instrumentsmedievaux.org/pages/Luth14.htm

there's tons of stuff on this site elsewhere

Roger




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RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Caroline Usher]

At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia
>and the new world.
>
>http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm

 From this website:  "The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a Spanish 
Folk dance but originally came from Italy, created by F. Alfonso Ciacone 
(1540-1599), a blind Italian composer from about 1560."

Sgr. Ciacone is unknown to the authors of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and 
Musicians, the premier reference work in English.  Does anyone have any 
evidence for his existence?  The Ciacona and the Passacaglia are not the same.
Caroline

*
Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator
613-8155, Box 91000

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RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[Fossum, Arthur]

Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia
and the new world.

http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm



-Original Message-
From: Antonio Corona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

Dear all,


 --- Carl Donsbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> Early colonial life was hard!  The early English and
> Spanish colonies in 
> North America were not characterized by much musical
> cultural growth, and 
> there is little evidence of lute playing or making
> in those times.  Musical 
> instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at
> home by emigrating 
> colonists.  By the time much of any kind of musical
> life was enjoyed by the 
> residents of the colonies, we were pretty well into
> the Baroque.  



The situation regarding Mexico is quite the opposite:
musical activities, both liturgical and secular, began
even as the conquest was taking place, and continued
to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period.
This process is well documented in numerous sources
and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that
the first printing press and the first university in
the American continent were founded in Mexico City.
Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during
the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain nobles
and authorities towards natives, brought with them
their whole culture, including, of course, music which
was shared freely with the Indian population - as an
aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless making
it part of the common culture being forged at the
time. The Indians appreciated the new music and
learned with amazing speed both how to play and how to
make the instruments - which were also imported from
Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned
above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period.

The music in the archives from the cathedrals and
churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala,
Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample proof
that there was indeed a musical cultural growth. Here
we can find music imported from Europe in great
quantities, but also a wealth of works composed
locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding quality,
not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at
the time. Nowadays there is a great number of
recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those
interested in folowing up this topic.

Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros",
that is, the regulations of the guild of
vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first published
in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the 
guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must surely
mean that instrument-making -and buying- was certainly
flourishing at the time.

With best regards,
Antonio







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Thanks to all for d minor tuning advice

[Eric Hansen]

My thanks to all those who offered advice about beginner tablature for the 11 
course Baroque lute in d minor tuning. I have plenty to go on now, and am most 
impressed with this very active list!

Best to all,
Eric Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

> Enough, the members of this list are from various countries and opinions.
> And some hold those opinions rather strongly. (BTW RT, I can send you a
> photo of fine Celtic metalwork from 700 BC, as preserved in a museum in
> Germany). 
Only if it pertains to string manufacture.
RT
__
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http://polyhymnion.org/swv




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Re: Question about lute courses/strings

[Roman Turovsky]

Any use of electronic equipment makes it suspiciously modern.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv

> Even if a personal trascription by ear is near the practice of the
> Renaissance, or not?
> Paolo
>> Dear Joe,
>> It is easier to get hold of the music than transcribe it by ear from
>> a record.
>> A course consisting of two strings may sound like a single string,
>> if the strings are perfectly in tune with each other. If you play
>> with nails, there is a tendency to catch just one string of each
>> pair, but if you use the flesh of your finger, you have a better
>> chance of striking both strings. It is important for the finger to
>> strike the strings quickly and cleanly, or you might hear "bdum",
>> i.e. one string sounding slightly later than the other.
>> 
>> Just for the record, John Come Kiss Me Now is related to many other
>> pieces including the Quadro Pavan, which all have similar chord
>> sequences. It's Bile Dem Cabbage Down in disguise.
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Stewart McCoy.
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Joe Helmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:44 AM
>> Subject: question about lute courses/strings
>> 
>> 
>>> New to the list here...
>>> 
>>> I'm a classical guitarist in love with lute music, and am
>> transcribing
>>> a song by MacFarlane.  I recorded it, raised it an octave, and
>> then am
>>> playing it back at 50% speed to help in getting an accurate
>>> transcription
>>> 
>>> My question is this:  Do all lutes have two-string courses on the
>>> treble-most strings?  I'm listening to this MacFarlane piece
>> ("John
>>> Come Kiss Me Now") and I'd swear that he's plucking single
>> strings...
>>> 
>>> Can anyone educate me on this?
>>> 
>>> Joe
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Libero ADSL: 3 mesi gratis e navighi a 1.2 Mega, senza costi di attivazione.
> Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re:Question about lute courses/strings

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Even if a personal trascription by ear is near the practice of the Renaissance, 
or not?

Paolo

 
> Dear Joe,
> 
> It is easier to get hold of the music than transcribe it by ear from
> a record.
> 
> A course consisting of two strings may sound like a single string,
> if the strings are perfectly in tune with each other. If you play
> with nails, there is a tendency to catch just one string of each
> pair, but if you use the flesh of your finger, you have a better
> chance of striking both strings. It is important for the finger to
> strike the strings quickly and cleanly, or you might hear "bdum",
> i.e. one string sounding slightly later than the other.
> 
> Just for the record, John Come Kiss Me Now is related to many other
> pieces including the Quadro Pavan, which all have similar chord
> sequences. It's Bile Dem Cabbage Down in disguise.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Stewart McCoy.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Joe Helmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:44 AM
> Subject: question about lute courses/strings
> 
> 
> > New to the list here...
> >
> > I'm a classical guitarist in love with lute music, and am
> transcribing
> > a song by MacFarlane.  I recorded it, raised it an octave, and
> then am
> > playing it back at 50% speed to help in getting an accurate
> > transcription
> >
> > My question is this:  Do all lutes have two-string courses on the
> > treble-most strings?  I'm listening to this MacFarlane piece
> ("John
> > Come Kiss Me Now") and I'd swear that he's plucking single
> strings...
> >
> > Can anyone educate me on this?
> >
> > Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 




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Question about lute courses/strings

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Joe,

It is easier to get hold of the music than transcribe it by ear from
a record.

A course consisting of two strings may sound like a single string,
if the strings are perfectly in tune with each other. If you play
with nails, there is a tendency to catch just one string of each
pair, but if you use the flesh of your finger, you have a better
chance of striking both strings. It is important for the finger to
strike the strings quickly and cleanly, or you might hear "bdum",
i.e. one string sounding slightly later than the other.

Just for the record, John Come Kiss Me Now is related to many other
pieces including the Quadro Pavan, which all have similar chord
sequences. It's Bile Dem Cabbage Down in disguise.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Joe Helmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:44 AM
Subject: question about lute courses/strings


> New to the list here...
>
> I'm a classical guitarist in love with lute music, and am
transcribing
> a song by MacFarlane.  I recorded it, raised it an octave, and
then am
> playing it back at 50% speed to help in getting an accurate
> transcription
>
> My question is this:  Do all lutes have two-string courses on the
> treble-most strings?  I'm listening to this MacFarlane piece
("John
> Come Kiss Me Now") and I'd swear that he's plucking single
strings...
>
> Can anyone educate me on this?
>
> Joe




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Re: Ronn McFarlane

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I don't know about Ronn's mandora.  You can try to contact him via his site:
.
List occasional Rob MacKillop also plays this rep on a mandora that was based 
upon the famous Baugin painting "Still Life with Cessboard."  I believe 
somebody told me it's size was determined relative to the deck of playing cards 
in the painting.  Perhaps you could coax details from Rob as well.

Best,
Eugene


- Original Message -
From: Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, December 10, 2004 3:26 am
Subject: Ronn McFarlane

> Does anyone know an email addess or a direct web site for Ronn? I 
> want to
> ask him about the dimensions of the Mandora he plays. (I've met 
> him at a
> master class, but don't know how to reach him).
> 
> On the advice of Bill Kilpatrick (of this list) I gotten a 
> Bolivian charango
> which I intend to use tuned as the 4,5,4,5 mandora that Ronn 
> plays, but it
> is a matter of the level of pitch that concerns me. The charango 
> is 36cm VL,
> and a very small instrument. Ronn plays a mandora tuned to (top) 
> g'', I
> can't get up there before breaking point at 36cm (14+ in) so I 
> assume the
> mandora must be even smaller. I'd like to know the VL on the 
> mandora he uses
> (and realize that lengths may vary even within a name instrument).
> 
> Best, Jon
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Re: thanks to all who replied

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Once more, if you don't mind spending a few bucks, there is no need to 
transcribe this by ear.  The whole of the program from this CD is in print and 
widely avaialable.  See:
.  
The book includes both lute tablature and standard notation.

Best,
Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Joe Helmick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:45 am
Subject: thanks to all who replied

> Thanks to everyone who replied to my recent question.  Many of you
> asked what piece I'm transcribing.
> 
> It's off the CD entitled "Ronn McFarlane The Renaissance Lute" Dorian
> Records DOR-90186
> 
> The piece is labeled John Come Kiss Me Now (4:10) Anon. Cozens lute
> book c.1600)
> 
> I'm transcribing it from the recording because I cannot find the
> music.
> 
> I'm about 2/3 done with the piece, and there is only one section so
> far that's really given me trouble (hard to make out the bass line in
> one passage), so I think I'm doing pretty well, considering :)
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Re: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

> trend of mentality. At least there are such brave heartful people there tha=
> t do all the hard work and diffuse early music ,and culture in general , th=
> rough public radios, fundraisings and community activity. No culturally-gen=
> erous French or German state giving there (actually, i don't think USA has =
> a ministry of culture!) =20
None at all, while the Canadian one does a decent job supporting music.
RT 



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Re: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

Yes, and IFs are the fiction writers' prerogative.
RT
> Historians may retrospectively analyze the whys
> PD
> 
>>> As it stands today you are correct, however if America was not involved in
>>> WWII Hitler would not have been forced to fight a two front war at either
>>> end of the Continent, Russia would not have had American assistance
>>> financially and technically and the entire outcome of the war would have
>>> been different.  But let us take your point to its logical conclusion.  If
>> This conclusion is illogical, since in history there cannot be IFs. Events
>> have either occurred or didn't.
>> RT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Renaissance america

[Roman Turovsky]

> In my opinion Roman, you might do well to read up on Mao Tse-tung representing
> the Communists, Chiang Kai-shek representing the
> Guomintang, and their supply routes known as the Burma Road and the Hump.
1.My grandfather was training Chisese pilots in 1944. Notably how to eat, as
rice based diet wasn't helping to handle high altitudes.
2. Read Howard's post attentively.
RT



> 
>> Likewise in the east, the Japanese had secured most of the strategic points
>> in
>> the Pacific Rim and China, and were well on their way
>> to take down Australia.  But between the Chinese insurgency and the massive
>> American campaign, their resources became stretched too
>> thin.  Again, please enlighten me if this is incorrect.
> And who did foment and supply the Chinese insurgency in your opinion?
> RT
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: Renaissance america

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Historians may retrospectively analyze the whys 
PD

> > As it stands today you are correct, however if America was not involved in
> > WWII Hitler would not have been forced to fight a two front war at either
> > end of the Continent, Russia would not have had American assistance
> > financially and technically and the entire outcome of the war would have
> > been different.  But let us take your point to its logical conclusion.  If
> This conclusion is illogical, since in history there cannot be IFs. Events
> have either occurred or didn't.
> RT
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 




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Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe

[bill kilpatrick]

 --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros",
> that is, the regulations of the guild of
> vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first
> published
> in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the 
> guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must
> surely
> mean that instrument-making -and buying- was
> certainly
> flourishing at the time.


any mention of the word "charango" or were the poor
deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela de
manos under the wrong name?

what news of the vihuela society?

- bill

=
"and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don 
Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph 
of San Buenaventura.  go to:  http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm





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Ronn McFarlane

[Jon Murphy]

Does anyone know an email addess or a direct web site for Ronn? I want to
ask him about the dimensions of the Mandora he plays. (I've met him at a
master class, but don't know how to reach him).

On the advice of Bill Kilpatrick (of this list) I gotten a Bolivian charango
which I intend to use tuned as the 4,5,4,5 mandora that Ronn plays, but it
is a matter of the level of pitch that concerns me. The charango is 36cm VL,
and a very small instrument. Ronn plays a mandora tuned to (top) g'', I
can't get up there before breaking point at 36cm (14+ in) so I assume the
mandora must be even smaller. I'd like to know the VL on the mandora he uses
(and realize that lengths may vary even within a name instrument).

Best, Jon



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Re: Renaissance america

[Jon Murphy]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I've been away a few days, a glitch on my domain server, and I come back to
this thread. Let's go back to arguing about Celtic harps and wire strings
and ancient musical history.

I have never seen so much misinformation from both sides of a discusssion,
But that may be as I might be the only one on the list old enough to have
been sentient during WWII (and some knowledge of American history - as
contrasted to the history of the United States).

I can't answer all the comments, and I missed a few days of them with the
glitch. I gather that this thread started with the suggestion that had
America been colonized (not conquered) by Renaissance Italians it would be a
"softer and gentler" country. First let's put that suggestion aside,
Renaissance Europe wasn't exactly a haven of peace (depending on when you
define the start of the Renaissance). Medici's in Italy, various wars of
succession and aggregation in northern Europe and England. The Puritans of
Plymouth Rock were only one group of many who came from Europe, there were
also the attempts at commercial colonization of Jamestown - and let us not
forget the French "voyageurs" of the north, that became Canada.

I'll make a personal comment on my own history. It is quite mixed. But I am
American born (in the sense of the United States), and mixed American and
English parentage (my father was American as he was born on this continent,
but born in 1898 in the Northwest Territories of Canada - and my mother
quite English, as a Londoner who suffered the first civilian bombings from
the air - she lived on the route from Germany to the docks on the Thames
when the Kaiser sent Zeppelins to bomb the docks, and they weren't very
accurate). My first "American" ancestors arrived in the Boston area about
1640, but I'm the first American citizen in my family. Some of them faught
in the "French and Indian Wars", better called the Colonial Wars, in the mid
1700s. And a number of them faught in the Revolutionary War, but I'm afraid
they chose the losing side and found it expedient to move north to Canada a
few steps ahead of the tar and feathers.

There is a point to this, and it is that this country isn't now, and has
never been, something that can be categorized. To ascribe one set of
colonials a defining anima of the nation of today is quite foolish.

OK, can we drop the thread? I don't even want to start on the WWII issues -
Russia, Japan, Italy and whatever. Let me just add that I mourned the death
of an old friend this summer. He exemplified the United States. Many
Americans lost their lives invading Europe on D-Day, and a certain number in
the poppy fields of WWI. Neither war threatened our territory. Mike Doyle,
an exceptional gentleman, served his country in one of the worst theaters of
the war. He was a U.S. Navy gunner on a merchant ship on the Murmansk run.
For those who claim Russia's primacy in that war I remind them of the many
U.S. sailors who died in those cold waters bringing them the supplies, both
survival and military, that enabled them to survive.

Enough, the members of this list are from various countries and opinions.
And some hold those opinions rather strongly. (BTW RT, I can send you a
photo of fine Celtic metalwork from 700 BC, as preserved in a museum in
Germany). Let's get back to arguing about strings and instuments. And I am
not without opinion on modern politics or history, but that belongs off list
(and I will answer).

Best, Jon

- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Renaissance america


> >
> > But my original question still remains unanswered:  Why this Jab at
America?
> > I thought this was a forum to discuss the Lute and things related.
> No jabs. It was just a bit difficult to leave LeBlanc's uneducated insult
> uncommented.
> RT
> -- 
> http://polyhymnion.org/torban
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>