[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Please listen to Toyohiko Satoh's recording of Weichemberger, or to Paul > Beier's recording of 11 course Weiss. Both have 11 course lutes entirely > strung in gut, and they are astonishingly beautiful. > > ed Hmmm. Toyohiko'seems to be out of tune a good deal on his Weichenberger CD. I find it rather irritating. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. _ Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
Dear Anthony, Andreas, et al, These topics have been discussed many times on this list, but I think the subject is very relevant to us all. Although I am a gut user and proponent, I still miss using synthetics some times. I hope I am open minded about it. Toyohiko gave demonstrations this past summer at the LSA seminar in Cleveland. He had a 13 course lute strung entirely in gut (for performance, he removed the 12th & 13th courses for French music). Toyohiko questions if gut was actually ever loaded. There are arguments on each side, pro & con. But, of the real evidence, the existing lutes have smaller diameter holes in pegs and bridges, so our conclusion, or conjecture, that they "must have" loaded the gut to add weight is not proven. We know that the masters for the most part used gut, that they played with the right hand close to the bridge, and that the holes were not large. Dan Larson is of the opinion that a lute with less tension will sound better, because the wood moves more freely, as opposed to a high tension instrument. Toyohiko uses plain gut; I mean, plain, without any metal. And those strings, even the basses, are a smaller relative diameter, making for much less tension - perhaps 60 - 70 % of what we use today. Playing by the bridge under light tension gives him astonishing results, some of the most beautiful sound & playing imaginable. This follows what we see in paintings & what we see with extant bridge & peg holes. Just as "thumb under" right hand technique was revolutionary 30 + years ago in our times, low tension gut, with technique playing by the bridge, is also potentially revolutionary, as well. I have not yet experimented with the light tension, plain gut, new technique, etc. We have a great deal more to learn. ed At 11:45 PM 2/8/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: > > Gut strings over 114 cm? Is that really a question??? > > > Dear Anthony and all other string users > > > > Gut strings over 114 cm? Is that really a question??? Did they used > > Pyramid strings in the early 17th century??? > >That had been a belief expressed on the French site by one person, >who I quoted. Presumably, this person imagined that longer strings >could only have been developed with a different material, or with >metal twist. This is probably based on the idea that given a >particular thickness of gut and a specific tension, the longer the >string, the more fragile it becomes: ie there would be a maximum >length beyond which the string would simply break. > >Although this person was mistaken here and admitted it, it underlines >what a number of people believe. That is, that as a given gut >string's length increases, so it tends to break more frequently. >Although I have gut strings on my Renaissance lute, I was told by a >number of competent lutists and lute makers that gut stringing would >be very impractical on a Baroque lute, and they all referred to the >increased string length as the problem. > >It seems as though this is either a tendency that has been >exaggerated, or not a tendency at all, since Ed Martin and others are >using gut strings on their Baroque lutes; but I would have liked to >clarify this. Perhaps only specific tension and thickness is relevant >to the breaking strain and length plays no part what so ever in this. >My small knowledge in physics does not help me here, and I have no >practical experience of using gut strings beyond 60 cm length. > > > My question is: > > Has the change of the hand position something to do with a lower > > tension? > >I think this is plausible. If the hand moves back towards the bridge >the strings seem to be under greater tension; as one moves towards >the rose they appear more slack, for obvious reasons. Many paintings >of Baroque players seem to show them with their hand near the bridge. >If they were using low tension strings this could be a way of >compensating for this. > >However, it may also be true that, as the string numbers increase >during the transitional development of the lute, so there are more >strings present to resonate in sympthy giving more harmonics. Playing >nearer the bridge might then have been a way of obtaining a clearer >fundamental with less harmonics. If this were so, then the J-barring >to fan-barring in high Baroque might be considered as continuing this >compensation, as courses were further increased: it has been >suggested that fan-barring tends to underline the fundamental, while >J-barrings bring out more of the harmonic structure. > >These are just passig thoughts, and I am sure this is far too >simplistic, a number of different explanations, may not exclude each >other. >regards >Anthony > >Le 8 fevr. 07 =E0 20:48, Andreas Schlegel a ecrit : > > > Dear Anthony and all other string users > > > > Gut strings over 114 cm? Is that really a question??? Did they used > > Pyramid strings in the early 17th century??? > > We don't know exactly which strings they had - but cer
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
My 11 course lute is a Frei, copy of the Mouton lute. It is also short, as you mentioned, at 67 cm. The desirable thing about that short length is that a gut treble will stay on for a long time, even months. For my 70.5 cm 13 course (Burkholtzer), a gut treble breaks much too often. I think 67 or 68 is the upper limit for f at 415... any longer, and string breakage is a problem. So, in order to make it work effectively, in gut, I have to lower the pitch. If you want to play both French and later German music on your 11 course, I would advise to get perhaps a larger body than the small Frei (as I have). It has a very sensitive, beautiful sound, but the larger instrument will certainly project more volume & depth in sound. I am sorry if I indicated that the 12th & 13th courses were single strung... they are in fundamental & octave, traditional stringing. I said "simple", not "single". Simple implies no fancy swan neck, a standard bass rider. And yes, with good stringing, it has wonderful sound, volume depth, and warmth of sound. Foir archlutes or theorbos, one can get very long mensurs. My archlute is in all gut diapasons, and the length is about 140 cm. Please listen to Toyohiko Satoh's recording of Weichemberger, or to Paul Beier's recording of 11 course Weiss. Both have 11 course lutes entirely strung in gut, and they are astonishingly beautiful. ed It is difficult to advise whatAt 06:34 PM 2/8/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: >Dear Ed > The 14 course Gottlieb lute had a superb sound, and the extra > length >of the swan-neck may indeed have been a help for the bass. >I suppose that this could mean, if I go for an 11 course Baroque luth >for French music, I should go for a longish string length, perhaps 69 >cms or more, rather than the 67cm Mouton type lute. Would you advise >gimped strings on the lower courses? > >As an amateur, I think I can only have one Baroque lute. I am most >drawn to the French repertoire, which Is why I felt drawn to an 11C >lute, perhaps of the Frei type; but I noticed that 11c has not >prevented Jakob Heringman from playing 11c Weiss (although perhaps >this would not work on a Frei type?). > >However, your mention that your 13c swan-neck lute has single strings >on the 12th and 13th course. This makes me wonder whether it would be >feasible (on a non-swan-neck lute) to do the same thing. I am just >thinking this would give access to 13c music without raising the >weight of the instrument too much, giving basically an 11c lute but >with 13c possibilities (actually the size of the rare 12c lute). > >Perhaps this would be too much of a monstrosity. Sometimes less is >more, but I would be pleased to hear your thoughts. I realize this >would lose the advantage of the very long strings on your swan-necked >lute. > >It is amusing to see that a parallel topic has just developed on the >French Luth-list about the possibility of stringing an arch-lutes in >gut. >One person thought that it was not possible to use a gut lute string >over 114 cms. Obviously, this must depend on diameter, but would you >know whether there is any such limit? > >What would be the longest useable gut string for an arch-lute or >theorbo be? >regards >Anthony > > > >Le 8 févr. 07 à 13:52, Edward Martin a écrit : > > > Dear Anthony, > > > > Yes, it is entirely possible to string a baroque lute entirely in > > gut. I have done that for the past 10 - 11 years, and enjoy it > > very, very much. The sound is lovely, but the "touch" is a bit > > different that one needs to adjust his/her technique. > > > > I especially think the swan necked baroque lutes work great with > > gut, as the increased length makes it a perfect sound. When using > > metal wound strings on those long lengths, in my opinion, it sounds > > "tinny" or jangly" (no flames, please). > > > > My baroque lute (!3 course) has a simple bass rider for the 12th & > > 13th courses, but the sound is fabulous in gut. No, it does not > > cause extensive string damage ( exception - trebles). Some of my > > bass strings have been on for over 10 years, and they actually > > improve with age. > > > > ed > > > > > > > > At 11:19 AM 2/8/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: > >> Andrew, Edward, Stephen and All > >> I agree whole-heartedly with Edward's message, I am but an > >> amateur, > >> and in a way amateurs have an advantage over professionals. The > >> difficulty with gut (as suggested by Ed.) is mainly when a large > >> concert room fills up with people and the humidity suddenly jumps up > >> (as we saw with Jakob Lindberg in London). Indeed, I can almost > >> predict the weather, and have no need for a barometer, as the change > >> in tension of my gut strings often allows me to predict whether I am > >> going to need an umbrella! > >> > >> I think a number of professional lutists use nylgut or similar when > >> playing in public, for that reason; but then when they record use > >> gut. > >> Jacob Heringman d
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: historic repair question
On Thu, Feb 8, 2007, Art Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Chris, > > I've used brass sheet for re-fretting these, assuming that's what the > original frets are made from. Brass or silver seem most likely, possibly german-silver (nickel silver). If the surviving frets have a rounded top edge they are probably sheet folded in half length-wise and hammered to the thickness of the saw-cut groove. It used to be possible to purchase brass sheet in a variety of thicknesses and widths from hobby shops marketing to aircraft, racing car and railroad modelers, but the variety of thicknesses and widths has decreased over the past several decades. Sheet is of course available comercialy to manufacturors, but minimum orders discourage the likes of us keeping a full stock, and making thin strip is a pain. One can begin with wire and roll it to thickness/width, suitable rolling aparatus is avaialable from jewelery supply outlets. Small amounts of stock (individual frets) can be hammered from wire with patience and practice (work on copper first, work on developing a consistant elbow position). > gentle hammering will bend the metal to a curve. Stroking with a burnishing tool gives better control of the curve(s). > used model traintrack as a very close approximation of the historic >> fretting. The section of actual railroad rails varies from country to country and historically - what is used for US models would require modification for use as fretwire, better to work with sheet or wire IMHO. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
Anthony Hind wrote: > The person I quoted realised they had made a mistake, but my question > coming from that was, does length play any role in the breaking point > of a string, or is it simply tension, thickness and the material it is > made from? > > Again the answer is probably obvious and a basic physics textbook > answer is no doubt to hand. Unfortunately, I don't have access to one. > > I am happy there are so many people replying that are using gut > strings. I certainly hope to be able to use gut on a future Baroque > lute. > My fear however, is that indeed the top strings become even more > fragile on a Baroque lute than on my 60 cms Renaissance lute. I don't think length per se makes a string more fragile, at least not at the lengths we're talking about here. I've still got the original 167cm extension strings on my theorbo; they sound fine after 15 years. The instrument doesn't get heavy use, and I note in passing that I've never seen a suspension bridge held up by gut cables. But all other things being equal, a longer string is going to be thinner. The strings of an A third course at 70 cm will tend to be about 85% the diameter of third-course strings at the same pitch on a 60 cm lute. This will tend to make them more fragile. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
Hello, Bruno. It is great to hear from you, once again. Please do stop by in Minnesota... we have a great deal of things to catch up! Gut can be very stable in Minnesota, but with severe cold, or in the humid summers, it can be a problem. ed At 09:36 AM 2/8/2007 -0500, Bruno Fournier wrote: >Hello all, > >I myself have been playing lute for close to 25 years, but am not a >professional musician. I find that for my personal use, and the >occasional concerts that I give, a combination of Sofracob strings and >Savarez , works out best for me, both in an economical sense and a >practical one. I play a renaissance 8 course, and have an 10 course >that has been modified as an 11 course ( soon to be modified again as >a tiorbato). Diapason is 59 cm on the 8 course. I use a Savarez >KF on the first string, then Sofracob gut from the 2nd course through >the 4 th course, followed by Savarez copper wound combined with a the >octave as a Sofracob gut string on the remaining courses. > >Contrary to Ed's remark ( Hi Ed, I have once again changed jobs and >might occasionally be travelling to Minnesota. I'll be sure to come >and see you if I can, haven't met up with you since 1980 or so???), I >find that my gut strings do not change so much in tuning, could be the >climate hereand also what I like, is that if I have to change a >string, it doesn't take so long to adjust to pitch and doesn't stretch >as much as a nylon string. > >I like the feel of gut on my fingers, and I also find the sound less >twangy > >Now, if I only could find the right gauge of gut strings for my >Algerian Oud...that would be great ( and more authentic for playing >the Oud in my medieval ensemble.), as so far I am stuck with >playing on Savarez Oud strings. > >cheers > >Bruno > >On 2/8/07, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Andrew, Edward, Stephen and All > > I agree whole-heartedly with Edward's message, I am but an amateur, > > and in a way amateurs have an advantage over professionals. The > > difficulty with gut (as suggested by Ed.) is mainly when a large > > concert room fills up with people and the humidity suddenly jumps up > > (as we saw with Jakob Lindberg in London). Indeed, I can almost > > predict the weather, and have no need for a barometer, as the change > > in tension of my gut strings often allows me to predict whether I am > > going to need an umbrella! > > > > I think a number of professional lutists use nylgut or similar when > > playing in public, for that reason; but then when they record use gut. > > Jacob Heringman does that, according to his Ed Durbrow interview. > > Certainly, Jakob Lindberg has used loaded gut diapasons (explicitly > > stated in his Dowland record) and his Rauwolf was strung in gut. Paul > > O'Dette used to use gut on his Renaissance lute records when he > > recorded for Astrée CNRS, and so did Hopkinson Smith. > > > > As an amateur, I can usually avoid these extreme changes, and if like > > myself, you are not a very good lutist, you need all the help you can > > get. A very well sounding lute strung in gut will sound so pleasant > > even when playing a few notes. There is also the touch of the > > strings. Gut strings react in a very different way even to nylgut. > > The top strings are a problem and I must admit I recently compromised > > by using a top string in nylgut. The cost (over a few years) on one > > lute is not as bad as it first appears. The lower strings do last a > > very long time. Of course, if you have a whole collection of lutes, > > the problem is obviously greater. > > > > However, I personally feel that, on a Renaissance lute, gut is almost > > mandatory for the diapasons (gimped work too), if you don't want the > > bass "voice" to drown-out the higher "voices" (this always tends to > > happen with metal wounds, or the player must constantly damp these > > strings). If you can use gut throughout, the "voices" become so well > > balanced, and the sound of the strings more "homogenous", I agree > > with Martin that the 5th string sounds beautiful. It is of course > > more difficult to make the heavier 6 and 7 diapasons sing, but I > > think technique develops to help this, and at least you don't have to > > keep damping them. Martin Shepherd (I think) suggested using a > > slightly thinner diapason than usual and a slightly thicker octave, > > so as to achieve the same overall course tension. > > > > I often hear lutes strung in fluour-carbon and I always feel they > > begin to sound like mandolins. I do feel nylgut is a much better > > compromise,. > > > > Perhaps, on a Baroque lute the situation might be a little different. > > The much higher cost of the strings could become problematic. > > Nevertheless, when I visited Stephen Gottlieb's atelier a couple of > > years ago, he had a 14 course swan-neck lute entirely strung in gut, > > and I must admit that the sound was superb. If Ed says gut is > > possible on a Baroque lute, whe
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: beginner's question
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Thu, Feb 8, 2007, Stuart Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > >> Anyway, the back has sort of flexed - each side is curving up slightly. >> > > is it finished on one side and raw on the other? It was restrained while > glued to the instrument, but now is released and is reacting to changes in > humidity, not the least the edge being soaked and steamed as you > disassembled it. > > Strip the finish as an experiment. > Thanks, I'll try stripping the finish (on the outside) and see if that makes a difference. > >> And secondly, can I retrieve this flexed back - or should I just have a >> go at making another? >> > > does retrieval require it be flatened? > > either is more experience, which you do say you are seeking :-) > That's true. But if I could this existing back...back on, I could get on fiddling with other things like the bridge and the nut and the frets and get something to actually play. (Though I've got plenty of other, 'proper', instruments I could be playing). I can imagine gluing the back on - but it would have to be clamped tightly to hold the sticky-out edges down. I don't know whether this would be utterly futile though. Thanks for your thoughts. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: beginner's question
On Thu, Feb 8, 2007, Stuart Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Anyway, the back has sort of flexed - each side is curving up slightly. is it finished on one side and raw on the other? It was restrained while glued to the instrument, but now is released and is reacting to changes in humidity, not the least the edge being soaked and steamed as you disassembled it. Strip the finish as an experiment. > And secondly, can I retrieve this flexed back - or should I just have a > go at making another? does retrieval require it be flatened? either is more experience, which you do say you are seeking :-) -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
> Gut strings over 114 cm? Is that really a question??? > Dear Anthony and all other string users > > Gut strings over 114 cm? Is that really a question??? Did they used > Pyramid strings in the early 17th century??? That had been a belief expressed on the French site by one person, who I quoted. Presumably, this person imagined that longer strings could only have been developed with a different material, or with metal twist. This is probably based on the idea that given a particular thickness of gut and a specific tension, the longer the string, the more fragile it becomes: ie there would be a maximum length beyond which the string would simply break. Although this person was mistaken here and admitted it, it underlines what a number of people believe. That is, that as a given gut string's length increases, so it tends to break more frequently. Although I have gut strings on my Renaissance lute, I was told by a number of competent lutists and lute makers that gut stringing would be very impractical on a Baroque lute, and they all referred to the increased string length as the problem. It seems as though this is either a tendency that has been exaggerated, or not a tendency at all, since Ed Martin and others are using gut strings on their Baroque lutes; but I would have liked to clarify this. Perhaps only specific tension and thickness is relevant to the breaking strain and length plays no part what so ever in this. My small knowledge in physics does not help me here, and I have no practical experience of using gut strings beyond 60 cm length. > My question is: > Has the change of the hand position something to do with a lower > tension? I think this is plausible. If the hand moves back towards the bridge the strings seem to be under greater tension; as one moves towards the rose they appear more slack, for obvious reasons. Many paintings of Baroque players seem to show them with their hand near the bridge. If they were using low tension strings this could be a way of compensating for this. However, it may also be true that, as the string numbers increase during the transitional development of the lute, so there are more strings present to resonate in sympthy giving more harmonics. Playing nearer the bridge might then have been a way of obtaining a clearer fundamental with less harmonics. If this were so, then the J-barring to fan-barring in high Baroque might be considered as continuing this compensation, as courses were further increased: it has been suggested that fan-barring tends to underline the fundamental, while J-barrings bring out more of the harmonic structure. These are just passig thoughts, and I am sure this is far too simplistic, a number of different explanations, may not exclude each other. regards Anthony Le 8 fevr. 07 =E0 20:48, Andreas Schlegel a ecrit : > Dear Anthony and all other string users > > Gut strings over 114 cm? Is that really a question??? Did they used > Pyramid strings in the early 17th century??? > We don't know exactly which strings they had - but certainly not > overspun strings until the last third of the 17th century (the > spreading of the 1659 for the first time described overspun strings > was very slow). So as material two types are in question: gut and > silk. (The argument with the splitted roped strings to avoid larger > bridge wholes who is readable on the page of the SFL is very > strange. I think that's a polemic again the hypothesis of higher > density and we have no advices for this operation, who is very > dangerous for the roped string - without Loctite, invented 1423 > b.c. ;-) > The textile fabrication begun to use a kind of "laded > silk" (Seidenbeschwerung in German) in the second half of the 16th > c. So the technique was developped. But we don't know: > - Used they also silk in this time for strings? (We know one later > source. See Lute News 78 (Juni 2006), S.19, Patrizo Barbieri, in: > Galpin Society Journal. Francesco Lana Terzi, Magisterium naturae-- > (Brescia 1686, Vol. 2, S.433: ovinae maxime in usu sunt -- fides > serica crassiores in testudinibus aliqui maxime approbant") > - If yes: Loaded silk for the basses? > - If the technique of "loaded silk" was developped, was it possible > to make a technique transfer from silk to gut? > > We only know three things: > 1. In this time (end of the 16th century and first half of the 17th > c.) new instrument types with a bigger ambitus in the bass were > developped. So the problem of bass strings was certainly solved for > these instruments - and not with Pyramid ;-) > 2. There were different techniques in use: Very long diapasons > (ratio between petit jeu and grand jeu nearly 1:2) for a bigger > ambitus and smaller diapasons for smaller ambitus (f.ex. double > headed 12-course lute or 10-course lute - perhaps they used the > same string type for course 7 to 12?). > 3
[LUTE-BUILDER] beginner's question
I'm trying to get some experience of instrument making by experimenting with old home-made instruments (that I cobbled together years go). I'm working at quite a primitive level and I'm just looking for very basic advice. I've just taken the back off an instrument. I'd put the bars on with white glue and the back itself on with hide glue. The back came off pretty cleanly- with a knife, an iron and a wet cloth. I can't have glued the bars very well because they came off the when I took the back off. Anyway, the back has sort of flexed - each side is curving up slightly. I've got weights on it but I really don't think it's going to go flat. Exactly the same thing happened with another instrument when I took the back off, even with bars on. Any idea why this is happening? My ignorance of all things connected to instrument making and woodwork is unbounded so I won't be miffed if some rather obvious thing needs pointing out. And secondly, can I retrieve this flexed back - or should I just have a go at making another? Thanks for any help. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
On Thursday, Feb 8, 2007, at 09:34 America/Los_Angeles, Anthony Hind wrote: > One person thought that it was not possible to use a gut lute string > over 114 cms. Obviously, this must depend on diameter, but would you > know whether there is any such limit? > > What would be the longest useable gut string for an arch-lute or > theorbo be? Somebody's misunderstanding something here. Maybe it's me. Gut strings longer than 114 cm are common. The ones on my theorbo are 167 cm. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
Dear Anthony and all other string users Gut strings over 114 cm? Is that really a question??? Did they used Pyramid strings in the early 17th century??? We don't know exactly which strings they had - but certainly not overspun strings until the last third of the 17th century (the spreading of the 1659 for the first time described overspun strings was very slow). So as material two types are in question: gut and silk. (The argument with the splitted roped strings to avoid larger bridge wholes who is readable on the page of the SFL is very strange. I think that's a polemic again the hypothesis of higher density and we have no advices for this operation, who is very dangerous for the roped string - without Loctite, invented 1423 b.c. ;-) The textile fabrication begun to use a kind of "laded silk" (Seidenbeschwerung in German) in the second half of the 16th c. So the technique was developped. But we don't know: - Used they also silk in this time for strings? (We know one later source. See Lute News 78 (Juni 2006), S.19, Patrizo Barbieri, in: Galpin Society Journal. Francesco Lana Terzi, Magisterium naturae-- (Brescia 1686, Vol. 2, S.433: ovinae maxime in usu sunt -- fides serica crassiores in testudinibus aliqui maxime approbant") - If yes: Loaded silk for the basses? - If the technique of "loaded silk" was developped, was it possible to make a technique transfer from silk to gut? We only know three things: 1. In this time (end of the 16th century and first half of the 17th c.) new instrument types with a bigger ambitus in the bass were developped. So the problem of bass strings was certainly solved for these instruments - and not with Pyramid ;-) 2. There were different techniques in use: Very long diapasons (ratio between petit jeu and grand jeu nearly 1:2) for a bigger ambitus and smaller diapasons for smaller ambitus (f.ex. double headed 12-course lute or 10-course lute - perhaps they used the same string type for course 7 to 12?). 3. The technique of the right hand has radically changed from thumb inside to thumb outside - see all the pictures around 1600! (NB: At the end of the century the hand position is no longer in such an extreme position. Perhaps the bass strings had more tension?) My question is: Has the change of the hand position something to do with a lower tension? When the oversoun strings were more common (end of the 17th c. and begin of the 18th c.) new types of lutes were built: 13-course lutes with bass rider (ca. 1718, only some centimeters longer, perhaps they used the string from the 10th and 11th for the new 12th and 13th course?) and swan-neck lutes (ca. 1732 with a ratio of ca. 3:4). (But be careful: The earliest known swan-neck is a Angelique of Tielke from 1680 with a ratio of ca. 2:3 - the same ratio as for Liuti attiorbati.) For me it's astonishing to see that the question of strings and string material - who is certainly the main reason for the different developments of lute constructions and perhaps a very important reason for the htechnique change - was such a long time neglected. And now a question for all: Who knows a person who has to do with the history of textile technique in the 15th until the early 19th century - especially silk? Andreas -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Bingo [was: owland's Brittania]
Its the 6th and last Fantasy in Varietie of Lute Lessons (Musical Banquet is also 1610 and Robert's publication. Father John promoting his son?) Here you'll find the complete facsimile of Varietie: http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/bookshelf And if you (perchance) would like to have a look at 'Musical Banquet', more Dowland, and much else, go here: http://www.harald-lillmeyer.kulturserver-bayern.de These two, fortunately belong to an increasing number of people who are still dedicated to making lute-related stuff available on the net. My heartfelt gratitude goes out to all of you! Thankfully G. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: owland's Brittania > Hi Neil! > > The piece you want is a Fantasy by John Dowland. Jan Akkerman has > recorded a version of it on his album Tabernakel. I suppose he has > invented the name Brittania. You can find a pdf file with about half > the number of pieces from Robert (John Dowland's son) Dowland's Musical > Banquet of 1610. The one you're after is the seventh. > Just click or copy and paste the following link and bingo! > > http://cbsr26.ucr. > edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Varietie/VarietieOfLuteLessons.html > > > Cheers, > Lex > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
Dear Ed The 14 course Gottlieb lute had a superb sound, and the extra length of the swan-neck may indeed have been a help for the bass. I suppose that this could mean, if I go for an 11 course Baroque luth for French music, I should go for a longish string length, perhaps 69 cms or more, rather than the 67cm Mouton type lute. Would you advise gimped strings on the lower courses? As an amateur, I think I can only have one Baroque lute. I am most drawn to the French repertoire, which Is why I felt drawn to an 11C lute, perhaps of the Frei type; but I noticed that 11c has not prevented Jakob Heringman from playing 11c Weiss (although perhaps this would not work on a Frei type?). However, your mention that your 13c swan-neck lute has single strings on the 12th and 13th course. This makes me wonder whether it would be feasible (on a non-swan-neck lute) to do the same thing. I am just thinking this would give access to 13c music without raising the weight of the instrument too much, giving basically an 11c lute but with 13c possibilities (actually the size of the rare 12c lute). Perhaps this would be too much of a monstrosity. Sometimes less is more, but I would be pleased to hear your thoughts. I realize this would lose the advantage of the very long strings on your swan-necked lute. It is amusing to see that a parallel topic has just developed on the French Luth-list about the possibility of stringing an arch-lutes in gut. One person thought that it was not possible to use a gut lute string over 114 cms. Obviously, this must depend on diameter, but would you know whether there is any such limit? What would be the longest useable gut string for an arch-lute or theorbo be? regards Anthony Le 8 févr. 07 à 13:52, Edward Martin a écrit : > Dear Anthony, > > Yes, it is entirely possible to string a baroque lute entirely in > gut. I have done that for the past 10 - 11 years, and enjoy it > very, very much. The sound is lovely, but the "touch" is a bit > different that one needs to adjust his/her technique. > > I especially think the swan necked baroque lutes work great with > gut, as the increased length makes it a perfect sound. When using > metal wound strings on those long lengths, in my opinion, it sounds > "tinny" or jangly" (no flames, please). > > My baroque lute (!3 course) has a simple bass rider for the 12th & > 13th courses, but the sound is fabulous in gut. No, it does not > cause extensive string damage ( exception - trebles). Some of my > bass strings have been on for over 10 years, and they actually > improve with age. > > ed > > > > At 11:19 AM 2/8/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: >> Andrew, Edward, Stephen and All >> I agree whole-heartedly with Edward's message, I am but an >> amateur, >> and in a way amateurs have an advantage over professionals. The >> difficulty with gut (as suggested by Ed.) is mainly when a large >> concert room fills up with people and the humidity suddenly jumps up >> (as we saw with Jakob Lindberg in London). Indeed, I can almost >> predict the weather, and have no need for a barometer, as the change >> in tension of my gut strings often allows me to predict whether I am >> going to need an umbrella! >> >> I think a number of professional lutists use nylgut or similar when >> playing in public, for that reason; but then when they record use >> gut. >> Jacob Heringman does that, according to his Ed Durbrow interview. >> Certainly, Jakob Lindberg has used loaded gut diapasons (explicitly >> stated in his Dowland record) and his Rauwolf was strung in gut. Paul >> O'Dette used to use gut on his Renaissance lute records when he >> recorded for Astrée CNRS, and so did Hopkinson Smith. >> >> As an amateur, I can usually avoid these extreme changes, and if like >> myself, you are not a very good lutist, you need all the help you can >> get. A very well sounding lute strung in gut will sound so pleasant >> even when playing a few notes. There is also the touch of the >> strings. Gut strings react in a very different way even to nylgut. >> The top strings are a problem and I must admit I recently compromised >> by using a top string in nylgut. The cost (over a few years) on one >> lute is not as bad as it first appears. The lower strings do last a >> very long time. Of course, if you have a whole collection of lutes, >> the problem is obviously greater. >> >> However, I personally feel that, on a Renaissance lute, gut is almost >> mandatory for the diapasons (gimped work too), if you don't want the >> bass "voice" to drown-out the higher "voices" (this always tends to >> happen with metal wounds, or the player must constantly damp these >> strings). If you can use gut throughout, the "voices" become so well >> balanced, and the sound of the strings more "homogenous", I agree >> with Martin that the 5th string sounds beautiful. It is of course >> more difficult to make the heavier 6 and 7 di
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
Dear Ed and All There are articles on Martin Shepherd's site and also on Aquilla's site by Mimmo Peruffo, and remarks by Dan Larsen and Ephraim Segerman at nrinstruments on this topic. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringshistory.htm http://www.aquilacorde.com/articlesindex.htm http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html http://www.gamutstrings.com/article/article.htm One might think that the study of the holes in the bridge could give a good idea about the diameter of strings used. However, the number of surviving lutes in their original state may make this difficult, many having beeen transformed or partially destroyed. Also string diameter does not give a direct idea about the string tension unless you know the exact quality of the gut used. Is the gut a twist of sliced gut (as it usual is today) or a single piece of young castrated ram's gut, hgh twist, low twist, etc--? Could it have been weighted with metal oxides like Aquilla's loaded strings, as Mimmo Peruffo argues.? It seems that information from paintings can be used, see particularly the articles of Mimmo Peruffo above http://www.aquilacorde.com/iconography_index.htm and written texts are also a source of clues. http://www.aquilacorde.com/historical_index.htm The problem, I think, is that most are open to varying interpretations. I am not a specialist, these are just a few passing thoughts that jumped to mind. Regards Anthony Le 8 fevr. 07 =E0 15:44, Ed Durbrow a ecrit : > I'm just curious as to what makers have to say about this idea. Isn't > it possible to get an idea from the construction and material of a > historical instrument what approximate optimum tension the instrument > was designed for? > > On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:19 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: > >> However, the solution may be to use >> lower tensions. There was a thread recently (I believe begun my >> Martin Shepherd) about the advantages of lutes strung at low >> tensions. It seemed that with gut strings, a lower tension was not >> necessarily a problem. > > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: shamisen string
Well, I wish you luck with that enterprise. I think it may have been your interview with Jacob Heringman that helped me to sort out my choice of lute and strings types. I would still like to try out some real-gut strings. Jacob apparently likes these, and Martin Haycock told me they were almost too good. He told me that if you didn't have all Stoppiani strings, the few you used would make your other strings sound dull , or words to that effect. Thank you for the interviews you have already made, I do hope there will be more. Best regards Anthony Le 8 févr. 07 à 15:35, Ed Durbrow a écrit : > On Feb 8, 2007, at 2:49 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > >> PS I really enjoyed your web interviews of luthists. Are you thinking >> of carrying on this excellent work? > > I've sent two interviews by email to two famous lutenists but haven't > heard back. I think they were too long. I keep adding questions to > the standard ones and the interviews keep swelling. :-) > > > > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
I'm just curious as to what makers have to say about this idea. Isn't it possible to get an idea from the construction and material of a historical instrument what approximate optimum tension the instrument was designed for? On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:19 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: > However, the solution may be to use > lower tensions. There was a thread recently (I believe begun my > Martin Shepherd) about the advantages of lutes strung at low > tensions. It seemed that with gut strings, a lower tension was not > necessarily a problem. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
Hello all, I myself have been playing lute for close to 25 years, but am not a professional musician. I find that for my personal use, and the occasional concerts that I give, a combination of Sofracob strings and Savarez , works out best for me, both in an economical sense and a practical one. I play a renaissance 8 course, and have an 10 course that has been modified as an 11 course ( soon to be modified again as a tiorbato). Diapason is 59 cm on the 8 course. I use a Savarez KF on the first string, then Sofracob gut from the 2nd course through the 4 th course, followed by Savarez copper wound combined with a the octave as a Sofracob gut string on the remaining courses. Contrary to Ed's remark ( Hi Ed, I have once again changed jobs and might occasionally be travelling to Minnesota. I'll be sure to come and see you if I can, haven't met up with you since 1980 or so???), I find that my gut strings do not change so much in tuning, could be the climate hereand also what I like, is that if I have to change a string, it doesn't take so long to adjust to pitch and doesn't stretch as much as a nylon string. I like the feel of gut on my fingers, and I also find the sound less twangy Now, if I only could find the right gauge of gut strings for my Algerian Oud...that would be great ( and more authentic for playing the Oud in my medieval ensemble.), as so far I am stuck with playing on Savarez Oud strings. cheers Bruno On 2/8/07, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Andrew, Edward, Stephen and All > I agree whole-heartedly with Edward's message, I am but an amateur, > and in a way amateurs have an advantage over professionals. The > difficulty with gut (as suggested by Ed.) is mainly when a large > concert room fills up with people and the humidity suddenly jumps up > (as we saw with Jakob Lindberg in London). Indeed, I can almost > predict the weather, and have no need for a barometer, as the change > in tension of my gut strings often allows me to predict whether I am > going to need an umbrella! > > I think a number of professional lutists use nylgut or similar when > playing in public, for that reason; but then when they record use gut. > Jacob Heringman does that, according to his Ed Durbrow interview. > Certainly, Jakob Lindberg has used loaded gut diapasons (explicitly > stated in his Dowland record) and his Rauwolf was strung in gut. Paul > O'Dette used to use gut on his Renaissance lute records when he > recorded for Astrée CNRS, and so did Hopkinson Smith. > > As an amateur, I can usually avoid these extreme changes, and if like > myself, you are not a very good lutist, you need all the help you can > get. A very well sounding lute strung in gut will sound so pleasant > even when playing a few notes. There is also the touch of the > strings. Gut strings react in a very different way even to nylgut. > The top strings are a problem and I must admit I recently compromised > by using a top string in nylgut. The cost (over a few years) on one > lute is not as bad as it first appears. The lower strings do last a > very long time. Of course, if you have a whole collection of lutes, > the problem is obviously greater. > > However, I personally feel that, on a Renaissance lute, gut is almost > mandatory for the diapasons (gimped work too), if you don't want the > bass "voice" to drown-out the higher "voices" (this always tends to > happen with metal wounds, or the player must constantly damp these > strings). If you can use gut throughout, the "voices" become so well > balanced, and the sound of the strings more "homogenous", I agree > with Martin that the 5th string sounds beautiful. It is of course > more difficult to make the heavier 6 and 7 diapasons sing, but I > think technique develops to help this, and at least you don't have to > keep damping them. Martin Shepherd (I think) suggested using a > slightly thinner diapason than usual and a slightly thicker octave, > so as to achieve the same overall course tension. > > I often hear lutes strung in fluour-carbon and I always feel they > begin to sound like mandolins. I do feel nylgut is a much better > compromise,. > > Perhaps, on a Baroque lute the situation might be a little different. > The much higher cost of the strings could become problematic. > Nevertheless, when I visited Stephen Gottlieb's atelier a couple of > years ago, he had a 14 course swan-neck lute entirely strung in gut, > and I must admit that the sound was superb. If Ed says gut is > possible on a Baroque lute, when I finally oder my 11 course, for the > French Baroque music that I love, I will just have to use gut. > > However, as yet, I have never lived with a gut strung Baroque lute, > so I don't know how great the problems may be. I am told that the > greater string lengths and tensions do become a problem and do cause > very expensive string breakage. However, the solution may be to use > lower tensions. There was a thread recently (I believ
[LUTE] Re: shamisen string
On Feb 8, 2007, at 2:49 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > PS I really enjoyed your web interviews of luthists. Are you thinking > of carrying on this excellent work? I've sent two interviews by email to two famous lutenists but haven't heard back. I think they were too long. I keep adding questions to the standard ones and the interviews keep swelling. :-) Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: microphones
Dear Benjamin I am sure we would all be pleased to hear about the results of your experiments. It is a pity the Sony ECM-MS907 does not have sufficient out-put. At present, I use a Shure microphone with the preamplifier on my TC- D5M Sony Cassette recorder before the M-audio ADC and my computer. The TC-D5M has an extremely low noise level, but it would be more practical to be able to connect a microphone directly to the M-Audio input. Of course there are transformers that can raise the voltage of a microphone, but I don't know whether any are sufficient for inputting to a computer. I think they can also be quite expensive. Regards Anthony Le 8 févr. 07 à 14:26, Benjamin Stehr a écrit : > Dear Anthony, > >> However, if it is an amateur recording on a computer that you are >> looking for, I would tend to go for an M-Audio Transit to avoid the >> poor A to D Converter in the computer, and then use a high output >> microphone such as the Sony ECM-MS907. I see that this is described >> as a microphone for digital recording. I think this means that you >> will not need a preamp when inputting to a computer or an M-Audio >> Transit. I don't think that it means that it has an inbuilt A to D >> Converter. > > I have exactly this microphone and it does not produce an acceptable > output level directly on a computer. The output on a MD-recorder or > with > my M-Audio Microtrack 24/96, which i recently bought as a replacement > for the MD is also not really satisfying and quite noisy (which may be > caused by the built in preamp). > > Will give it a try with some mics that can be connected with phantom > power directly to the microtrack (like the Rode NT-5, ...) hoping > that this > makes it a nice portable recording solution. > > Benjamin > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: owland's Brittania
It's No. 1 in Mrs. Poulton's collected edition. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 6:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: owland's Brittania > Hi Neil! > > The piece you want is a Fantasy by John Dowland. Jan > Akkerman has > recorded a version of it on his album Tabernakel. I > suppose he has > invented the name Brittania. You can find a pdf file > with about half > the number of pieces from Robert (John Dowland's son) > Dowland's Musical > Banquet of 1610. The one you're after is the seventh. > Just click or copy and paste the following link and > bingo! > > http://cbsr26.ucr. > edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Varietie/VarietieOfLuteLessons.html > > > Cheers, > Lex > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: microphones
Dear Anthony, > However, if it is an amateur recording on a computer that you are > looking for, I would tend to go for an M-Audio Transit to avoid the > poor A to D Converter in the computer, and then use a high output > microphone such as the Sony ECM-MS907. I see that this is described > as a microphone for digital recording. I think this means that you > will not need a preamp when inputting to a computer or an M-Audio > Transit. I don't think that it means that it has an inbuilt A to D > Converter. I have exactly this microphone and it does not produce an acceptable output level directly on a computer. The output on a MD-recorder or with my M-Audio Microtrack 24/96, which i recently bought as a replacement for the MD is also not really satisfying and quite noisy (which may be caused by the built in preamp). Will give it a try with some mics that can be connected with phantom power directly to the microtrack (like the Rode NT-5, ...) hoping that this makes it a nice portable recording solution. Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: re gut strings
Dear Anthony, Yes, it is entirely possible to string a baroque lute entirely in gut. I have done that for the past 10 - 11 years, and enjoy it very, very much. The sound is lovely, but the "touch" is a bit different that one needs to adjust his/her technique. I especially think the swan necked baroque lutes work great with gut, as the increased length makes it a perfect sound. When using metal wound strings on those long lengths, in my opinion, it sounds "tinny" or jangly" (no flames, please). My baroque lute (!3 course) has a simple bass rider for the 12th & 13th courses, but the sound is fabulous in gut. No, it does not cause extensive string damage ( exception - trebles). Some of my bass strings have been on for over 10 years, and they actually improve with age. ed At 11:19 AM 2/8/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: >Andrew, Edward, Stephen and All > I agree whole-heartedly with Edward's message, I am but an amateur, >and in a way amateurs have an advantage over professionals. The >difficulty with gut (as suggested by Ed.) is mainly when a large >concert room fills up with people and the humidity suddenly jumps up >(as we saw with Jakob Lindberg in London). Indeed, I can almost >predict the weather, and have no need for a barometer, as the change >in tension of my gut strings often allows me to predict whether I am >going to need an umbrella! > >I think a number of professional lutists use nylgut or similar when >playing in public, for that reason; but then when they record use gut. >Jacob Heringman does that, according to his Ed Durbrow interview. >Certainly, Jakob Lindberg has used loaded gut diapasons (explicitly >stated in his Dowland record) and his Rauwolf was strung in gut. Paul >O'Dette used to use gut on his Renaissance lute records when he >recorded for Astrée CNRS, and so did Hopkinson Smith. > >As an amateur, I can usually avoid these extreme changes, and if like >myself, you are not a very good lutist, you need all the help you can >get. A very well sounding lute strung in gut will sound so pleasant >even when playing a few notes. There is also the touch of the >strings. Gut strings react in a very different way even to nylgut. >The top strings are a problem and I must admit I recently compromised >by using a top string in nylgut. The cost (over a few years) on one >lute is not as bad as it first appears. The lower strings do last a >very long time. Of course, if you have a whole collection of lutes, >the problem is obviously greater. > >However, I personally feel that, on a Renaissance lute, gut is almost >mandatory for the diapasons (gimped work too), if you don't want the >bass "voice" to drown-out the higher "voices" (this always tends to >happen with metal wounds, or the player must constantly damp these >strings). If you can use gut throughout, the "voices" become so well >balanced, and the sound of the strings more "homogenous", I agree >with Martin that the 5th string sounds beautiful. It is of course >more difficult to make the heavier 6 and 7 diapasons sing, but I >think technique develops to help this, and at least you don't have to >keep damping them. Martin Shepherd (I think) suggested using a >slightly thinner diapason than usual and a slightly thicker octave, >so as to achieve the same overall course tension. > >I often hear lutes strung in fluour-carbon and I always feel they >begin to sound like mandolins. I do feel nylgut is a much better >compromise,. > >Perhaps, on a Baroque lute the situation might be a little different. >The much higher cost of the strings could become problematic. >Nevertheless, when I visited Stephen Gottlieb's atelier a couple of >years ago, he had a 14 course swan-neck lute entirely strung in gut, >and I must admit that the sound was superb. If Ed says gut is >possible on a Baroque lute, when I finally oder my 11 course, for the >French Baroque music that I love, I will just have to use gut. > >However, as yet, I have never lived with a gut strung Baroque lute, >so I don't know how great the problems may be. I am told that the >greater string lengths and tensions do become a problem and do cause >very expensive string breakage. However, the solution may be to use >lower tensions. There was a thread recently (I believe begun my >Martin Shepherd) about the advantages of lutes strung at low >tensions. It seemed that with gut strings, a lower tension was not >necessarily a problem. >I apologize if these issues have been discussed exhaustively over the >last years and I am returning to a totally worn-out topic. I fear >this is quite likely to be the case. >Regards >Anthony > > > > > > >Le 8 févr. 07 à 00:33, Edward Martin a écrit : > > > > Andrew, > > > > Actually, many professionals use nylgut - Paul O'Dette, Nigel North, > > Hopkinson Smith. I think (but, I am uncertain) that Rolf Lislevand > > uses > > them as well. I know Jakob Lindberg used to use them. > > > > I have my renaissance 8 course in partial nylgut, because I
[LUTE] Re: sofracob prices
David When I think about it, I suppose stringing an archlute in gut would be similar in difficulty to striging a Baroque lute, if string length and the number of courses is the problem. Thus if you can keep an archlute strung in gut, it should be possible to do the same with a Baroque lute. I hope this reasoning is correct. Regards Anthony Le 8 févr. 07 à 10:11, LGS-Europe a écrit : >> I have not used gut strings on a Baroque instrument, however. It >> would be best to ask advice from those that have. I know that David >> van Ooijen amongst others, uses all gut on his Baroque lutes. > > Dear Anthony > > It's nice to know one doesn't even have to play a single baroque > lute to be > known as a player who plays more than one. I must confess to having > rather > many lutes, and, yes, all are strung in gut from varous makers like > Gamut, > Aquila, Kuerschner, Cathedrale and Sofracob, but none are baroque > lutes, > actually. I'll quote you on my CV from now on. > > But more to the point, I tend to use Sofracob for courses two to > four and > for octave strings on the basses. They're cheap, have a good gutsy > sound and > come in 3 meter length. I you make a large enough order the 10 euro > handling > fee is no problem because the strings cheap. Furthermore, with > _really_ > large orders you'll get a discount. I even use 0.40 Sofracob as a > first > course for studying purposes. Life expectancy anything between 0.3 > sec to > three weeks. Sofracob strings have a good balance between mellow, > warm sound > and clear attack with 'clean' sound. Not as warm as Gamut, but > treble gut by > Gamut can be a bit too warm and therefore dull on some of my lutes, > and not > as sharp and thin as Kuerschner, although on some instruments I > like to use > Kuerschner for the first course. > My baroque guitar is all Sofracob. Perfect for the instrument. > > David - should get a baroque lute, one day > > > > David van Ooijen > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: sofracob prices
Oooups sorry David, My error comes from "remembering" some messages, from a few years ago, in which I thought you mentioned playing Baroque music in an ensemble; but now I think about it, could have been any form of continuo playing, perhaps theorbo (and now I supposes it wasn't Baroque). I seemed to remember that you told me how well the gut strings had projected within a large group of players; but now I reflect on it, it might not even have been you. I was communicating with Nick Baldock at the same time and I may be confusing the two messages. I know he (also?) spoke about the excellent projection of gut strings in ensemble playing, but of course in his case, it was the double bass. This error was reinforced, by hearing you accompany a singer with your arch lute (obviously not Baroque), but I could have sworn you ventured into Purcell territory. From this, and the fact that I strongly associate you (I feel sure?) with Toyohiko Satoh (who does play Baroque lute?), I have always been under the impression that you played both Renaissance and Baroque lute. I do appologise, for allowing myself to jump to false conclusions. Just shows how vague memories and false associations can fool the mind, but mine appears to be rapidly failing me. I agree that the Sofracob, which Martin Haycock put on my Renaissance lute on the octaves have lasted now for a year. They do sound very good. He also put them on the second course, but there, they rapidly degenerated, and I replaced them with Kuerschner because Wolfgang Fruh, Point D'accroche, sells them in paris close to where I live. However, although they are a little hard in texture and quite bright, they do seem to last longer than the Sofracob. Although, having said that, I once had a Sofracob top string that lasted all winter (at least a couple of months!). I think weather and temperature can play a part in the survival of these strings. So now it seems I have made you a "virtual" Baroque lute player, as I am myself, very strongly in my mind. I would so much like to play French Baroque lute music, and of course on a gut strung lute. Best regards Anthony >> I have not used gut strings on a Baroque instrument, however. It >> would be best to ask advice from those that have. I know that David >> van Ooijen amongst others, uses all gut on his Baroque lutes. > > Dear Anthony > > It's nice to know one doesn't even have to play a single baroque > lute to be known as a player who plays more than one. I must > confess to having rather many lutes, and, yes, all are strung in > gut from varous makers like Gamut, Aquila, Kuerschner, Cathedrale > and Sofracob, but none are baroque lutes, actually. I'll quote you > on my CV from now on. > > But more to the point, I tend to use Sofracob for courses two to > four and for octave strings on the basses. They're cheap, have a > good gutsy sound and come in 3 meter length. I you make a large > enough order the 10 euro handling fee is no problem because the > strings cheap. Furthermore, with _really_ large orders you'll get a > discount. I even use 0.40 Sofracob as a first course for studying > purposes. Life expectancy anything between 0.3 sec to three weeks. > Sofracob strings have a good balance between mellow, warm sound and > clear attack with 'clean' sound. Not as warm as Gamut, but treble > gut by Gamut can be a bit too warm and therefore dull on some of my > lutes, and not as sharp and thin as Kuerschner, although on some > instruments I like to use Kuerschner for the first course. > My baroque guitar is all Sofracob. Perfect for the instrument. > > David - should get a baroque lute, one day > > > > David van Ooijen > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.davidvanooijen.nl > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] re gut strings
Andrew, Edward, Stephen and All I agree whole-heartedly with Edward's message, I am but an amateur, and in a way amateurs have an advantage over professionals. The difficulty with gut (as suggested by Ed.) is mainly when a large concert room fills up with people and the humidity suddenly jumps up (as we saw with Jakob Lindberg in London). Indeed, I can almost predict the weather, and have no need for a barometer, as the change in tension of my gut strings often allows me to predict whether I am going to need an umbrella! I think a number of professional lutists use nylgut or similar when playing in public, for that reason; but then when they record use gut. Jacob Heringman does that, according to his Ed Durbrow interview. Certainly, Jakob Lindberg has used loaded gut diapasons (explicitly stated in his Dowland record) and his Rauwolf was strung in gut. Paul O'Dette used to use gut on his Renaissance lute records when he recorded for Astrée CNRS, and so did Hopkinson Smith. As an amateur, I can usually avoid these extreme changes, and if like myself, you are not a very good lutist, you need all the help you can get. A very well sounding lute strung in gut will sound so pleasant even when playing a few notes. There is also the touch of the strings. Gut strings react in a very different way even to nylgut. The top strings are a problem and I must admit I recently compromised by using a top string in nylgut. The cost (over a few years) on one lute is not as bad as it first appears. The lower strings do last a very long time. Of course, if you have a whole collection of lutes, the problem is obviously greater. However, I personally feel that, on a Renaissance lute, gut is almost mandatory for the diapasons (gimped work too), if you don't want the bass "voice" to drown-out the higher "voices" (this always tends to happen with metal wounds, or the player must constantly damp these strings). If you can use gut throughout, the "voices" become so well balanced, and the sound of the strings more "homogenous", I agree with Martin that the 5th string sounds beautiful. It is of course more difficult to make the heavier 6 and 7 diapasons sing, but I think technique develops to help this, and at least you don't have to keep damping them. Martin Shepherd (I think) suggested using a slightly thinner diapason than usual and a slightly thicker octave, so as to achieve the same overall course tension. I often hear lutes strung in fluour-carbon and I always feel they begin to sound like mandolins. I do feel nylgut is a much better compromise,. Perhaps, on a Baroque lute the situation might be a little different. The much higher cost of the strings could become problematic. Nevertheless, when I visited Stephen Gottlieb's atelier a couple of years ago, he had a 14 course swan-neck lute entirely strung in gut, and I must admit that the sound was superb. If Ed says gut is possible on a Baroque lute, when I finally oder my 11 course, for the French Baroque music that I love, I will just have to use gut. However, as yet, I have never lived with a gut strung Baroque lute, so I don't know how great the problems may be. I am told that the greater string lengths and tensions do become a problem and do cause very expensive string breakage. However, the solution may be to use lower tensions. There was a thread recently (I believe begun my Martin Shepherd) about the advantages of lutes strung at low tensions. It seemed that with gut strings, a lower tension was not necessarily a problem. I apologize if these issues have been discussed exhaustively over the last years and I am returning to a totally worn-out topic. I fear this is quite likely to be the case. Regards Anthony Le 8 févr. 07 à 00:33, Edward Martin a écrit : > Andrew, > > Actually, many professionals use nylgut - Paul O'Dette, Nigel North, > Hopkinson Smith. I think (but, I am uncertain) that Rolf Lislevand > uses > them as well. I know Jakob Lindberg used to use them. > > I have my renaissance 8 course in partial nylgut, because I have to > use > that instrument under difficult situations. Otherwise, I mostly > use gut, > for vihuela, 10 course, baroque guitar, 11 course, and my 13 > course. Yes, > the tuning is sometimes an issue, along with treble string > breakage, but > the wonderful rich sound of gut makes it all worth while. If one > equilibrates the instrument to the room, tuning works well. When I > perform > in gut, I must get to the hall 3 hours in advance to insure good > tuning. > > Sometimes I regret not using synthetics, but gut is the most > satisfying > sound of all, so I stick with it. > > Someone said earlier today that the 5th course is a problem, but > the Pistoy > 5th is, in my opinion, the most beautiful string imaginable, for > either a > renaissance or baroque lute. > > ed > > > > > At 01:22 PM 2/7/2007 +, A
[LUTE] Re: BWV 1025
Thanks! Andreas Am 08.02.2007 um 10:14 schrieb Stephan Olbertz: > Dear Andreas, > > I don't know about an intabulation on the net, but I have the old > Peters edition (publ. > some time after the old Bach editon), and it gives the text of the > main manuscript St > 462 from the Staatsbibliothek Berlin, edited with dynamics and so > on, as it was > common in these days. But I read recently that the NBA volume with > works of > doubtful origin finally has been published, so there's your desired > urtext. > > Regards, > > Stephan > > Am 7 Feb 2007 um 22:24 hat Andreas Schlegel geschrieben: > >> Hello >> >> I have to play the Bach/Weiss BWV 1025. I possess the intavolation >> from the net and the old Bach edition and can clearly see many bigger >> differences in the Fantasia (the rest of the lute part I play >> directly from the Dresden ms. Has somebody an Urtext edition of the >> Fantasia? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Andreas >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
[LUTE] Re: sofracob prices
> I have not used gut strings on a Baroque instrument, however. It > would be best to ask advice from those that have. I know that David > van Ooijen amongst others, uses all gut on his Baroque lutes. Dear Anthony It's nice to know one doesn't even have to play a single baroque lute to be known as a player who plays more than one. I must confess to having rather many lutes, and, yes, all are strung in gut from varous makers like Gamut, Aquila, Kuerschner, Cathedrale and Sofracob, but none are baroque lutes, actually. I'll quote you on my CV from now on. But more to the point, I tend to use Sofracob for courses two to four and for octave strings on the basses. They're cheap, have a good gutsy sound and come in 3 meter length. I you make a large enough order the 10 euro handling fee is no problem because the strings cheap. Furthermore, with _really_ large orders you'll get a discount. I even use 0.40 Sofracob as a first course for studying purposes. Life expectancy anything between 0.3 sec to three weeks. Sofracob strings have a good balance between mellow, warm sound and clear attack with 'clean' sound. Not as warm as Gamut, but treble gut by Gamut can be a bit too warm and therefore dull on some of my lutes, and not as sharp and thin as Kuerschner, although on some instruments I like to use Kuerschner for the first course. My baroque guitar is all Sofracob. Perfect for the instrument. David - should get a baroque lute, one day David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: historic repair question
Chris, I've used brass sheet for re-fretting these, assuming that's what the original frets are made from. You need to measure the thickness of the original frets and buy the appropriate thickness. Tinsnips will cut the shape and gentle hammering will bend the metal to a curve. Good hobby shops seem to be the easiest source. All the best, Art > hello everyone, > I've got an 18th century 'English Guitar' I am repairing, and have a > question: > It is missing the very (bridge) end of the fingerboard, as it was > sliced off right at the final fret position at some point to add on a > longer fingerboard. This extension has since been removed, and I wish > to reconstruct the end that was historically there. I think this > should include the missing final fret and a small decorative end. > Rather than trying to extend the historic tortoishell veneer past the > replacement final fret and onto the new end surface, I intend on > leaving this end solid ebony, or may try to match the decorative MOP > that begins the fingerboard surface at the nut end. > My question is, how feasible is it to add a fret at this juncture of > new and old (I dont intend on removing the fingerboard for this > repair), and in general I would welcome feedback on the procedure. I > am thinking of following the lead of my friend Roberto in Rome who has > used model traintrack as a very close approximation of the historic > fretting. > thanks! > christopher davies, portland oregon > -- Art Robb Luthier Lutes & Guitars, Plans, Repairs & Restorations Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website www.art-robb.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
