[LUTE] Re: Poulton #73 [was] dedillo
> >> PS. #73 has an identical beginning as 2 of Molinaro's fantasias. > > Neither remarkable nor much of a coincidence. > The first three or four notes are a formula known in Italy as, if I > recall correctly, the "canzona francese." Pieces based on it were > common--Giovanni Gabrieli was particularly fond of it.<< > This is not about just three or four notes, which would indeed be > coincidental, but about the first 4 bars in Molinaro's fantasia #1 and # 7 > being identical to Poulton's # 73 in form if not in pitch. I didn't find > such a similarity in any other lute fantasias, and considering Dowland's > sojourn in Italy in the right time-frame... If its a common theme in canzona > francese models, I bow to superior knowledge. But as I said, I haven't found > this theme in any other "lute" fantasias (or canzone francese in lute > tablature FTM) but in these three pieces, and there are quite a few lute > fantasias. Coincidence? I know that some of you also thinks so, but others > I've mailed with believe them to at least be based on some common theme. If I remember correctly, this theme is known in England as "All in a Garden Green" and it is used in a lot of works from this period. I wonder if Howard meant to write the first three or four "bars", not "notes". Does any of you know why this piece is attributed to Dowland? It is a great piece, but to me it doesn't sound like a Dowland piece... Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Taco It would be better, if Mimmo Peruffo would answer this, and perhaps he will. However, I heard them and saw them on Mimmo Peruffo's bass lute, through Skype, and as far as I could hear and see in such a context they did seem good. I have an M-Audio Transit plus JBL on Tour speakers connected to my computer, which is not hifi by any means, but with a decent MP3 Stream such as the examples on Aquila's site, or Dan Larson's recordings of his lutes, it is quite reasonable. The previous type of loaded strings were easily damaged, being on a treble type string base. Now they are loaded Venice, which are a sort of twine. In particular they can be screwed up into a little ball and still come out looking like an unbroken string, which was not the case with the original ones. Mimmo demonstated that to me infront of the computer. He also did that trick of having the string vibrate between both hands, so that you can see that the vibration is even and regular. I understand that as they are almost "tanned", they are more immune from the effect of humidity than a normal string. I think MP will be introducing them to the lute world at the Greenwich early music festival this month, November 2007 However, that does not mean they are about to be commercialized. As I understand it, the method for producing them is highly complex and rather long (and there will have been many hours/days/years? research). It may then be, that only a small number in the production will be up to standard. Thus how do you commercialize such a product? It is a little like those wines made with a few of the grapes in each bunch, hand chosen at the end of November when the grapes have almost dried out, and then laid down in casks for 10 years. I tasted such a wine recently, at £90 a bottle. I did not actually buy it, but was allowed to taste it as a favour by the wine producer, because he knew I would appreciate it. It was an extraordinarily complex taste, but if I did not buy the wine (although I was sorely tempted) who is going to buy a string at £90 a go, and yet, when you think about it, that bottle of wine was only 375 ml, and would not have lasted an evening. A lute bass lute string will last several years. I am not saying that would be the price of such a string, but I can easily imagine that the production might take the same pains taking work and time as that wine. Regards Anthony Le 3 nov. 07 à 18:53, Taco Walstra a écrit : Dear all, just a new work on the lute historical stringings: http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm Maybe it help to open some new excange of ideas... Ciao Mimmo Interesting article and I'm very much interested in the new production of the loaded gut strings even after yesterdays experience with a small concert with a soprano in amsterdam: after a walk through drizzling rain, tuning in a relative warm room which was filled later with people wearing wet clothes and temperature rising to a hot and super humid level. I think that not many people understood my frustration when I answered a question from a listener why I had to tune after every song. When are these loaded gut string available? Anybody already experience with these strings from Aquila. (especially: How do they stay?) Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
> Dear all, > just a new work on the lute historical stringings: > http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm > Maybe it help to open some new excange of ideas... > Ciao > Mimmo > > Interesting article and I'm very much interested in the new production of the loaded gut strings even after yesterdays experience with a small concert with a soprano in amsterdam: after a walk through drizzling rain, tuning in a relative warm room which was filled later with people wearing wet clothes and temperature rising to a hot and super humid level. I think that not many people understood my frustration when I answered a question from a listener why I had to tune after every song. When are these loaded gut string available? Anybody already experience with these strings from Aquila. (especially: How do they stay?) Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Actually, I also wonder whether the arguments for low tension stringing (Satoh) are not similar to those in favour of loaded strings (MP). Both argue in relation to small historic lute holes. The main difference is that MP argues also from the colour of the strings in paintings. Another argument could be from iconography showing the RH position of lute players, who in the Baroque period, play nearer the bridge. However, I don't think that allows you to discriminate between the two hypotheses. I believe that with low tension strings, or with loaded strings, the player has to play nearer the bridge, so this position in imagery does not, I think differentiate the two hypotheses. Regards Anthony Le 3 nov. 07 à 15:03, Edward Martin a écrit : Why would you want a thinner Pistoy? If you want that, it would be best, in my opinion, to also lower the octave tension & play overall with light tension. In my experience, to merely put on a smaller diameter Pistoy, or other plain gut, would not sound any brighter. ed At 02:37 PM 11/3/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: To what extent would it be possible to raise the tension of the octave to lower the tension of the diapason, so as to obtain a thinner Pistoy instead of a Gimped or a loaded string. Could one avoid using a Gimped or loaded string by this method? I assume not, but I am thinking of Satoh, who I thought used relatively thin Pistoys instead of gimped strings. Anthony Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Why would you want a thinner Pistoy? If you want that, it would be best, in my opinion, to also lower the octave tension & play overall with light tension. In my experience, to merely put on a smaller diameter Pistoy, or other plain gut, would not sound any brighter. ed At 02:37 PM 11/3/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: >To what extent would it be possible to raise the tension of the >octave to lower the tension of the diapason, so as to obtain a >thinner Pistoy instead of a Gimped or a loaded string. Could one >avoid using a Gimped or loaded string by this method? I assume not, >but I am thinking of Satoh, who I thought used relatively thin >Pistoys instead of gimped strings. >Anthony Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Le 3 nov. 07 à 14:08, Edward Martin a écrit : At 01:42 PM 11/3/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Also he mentions the question of the octaves on the lower courses having been historically about half the tension of the basses themselves. "6. Octave strings: the modern tendency is to apply a noticeably lower tension than on their respective fundamental strings (Virdung, 1511 wrote that the octave's gauge must be half than the paired bass string)" Interesting. I was unaware of Virdung's quote, but I am also a gut user, and I have found this to be true. For me, the best results are where the octave is 1/2 the diameter of the fundamental. For instance, if I have a 1.0 fundamental, the octave usually is around .50. It I use 1.6 fundamental, the octave ends up .80. It is interesting with these equalities, that the tension in Kg or newtons comes out to be the same, which is the fundamental & it's octave end up being the same tension. To me, it feels and sound the best when strung in that manner. To what extent would it be possible to raise the tension of the octave to lower the tension of the diapason, so as to obtain a thinner Pistoy instead of a Gimped or a loaded string. Could one avoid using a Gimped or loaded string by this method? I assume not, but I am thinking of Satoh, who I thought used relatively thin Pistoys instead of gimped strings. Anthony ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
At 01:42 PM 11/3/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: >Also he mentions the question of the octaves on the lower courses >having been historically about half the tension of the basses >themselves. > >"6. Octave strings: the modern tendency is to apply a noticeably >lower tension than on their respective fundamental strings (Virdung, >1511 wrote that the octave's gauge must be half than the paired bass >string)" Interesting. I was unaware of Virdung's quote, but I am also a gut user, and I have found this to be true. For me, the best results are where the octave is 1/2 the diameter of the fundamental. For instance, if I have a 1.0 fundamental, the octave usually is around .50. It I use 1.6 fundamental, the octave ends up .80. It is interesting with these equalities, that the tension in Kg or newtons comes out to be the same, which is the fundamental & it's octave end up being the same tension. To me, it feels and sound the best when strung in that manner. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
I don't think the sound of carbon is that great even when treated with a bit of sanding, but I use them when I play under high intensity spotlights, which is I'm afraid where most of the concerts are these dayslights and A/C. There is nothing as good as gut, especially for the ornaments. dt David I am certainly not going to argue in favour of carbon that I have personally never used. However, I do undoubtedly prefer gut to any other strings that I have tried, such as Nylon or even Nylgut, although Nylgut does work alright as a substitute in most cases on Trebles. Mimmo Peruffo, in his article at http://www.aquilacorde.com/ lutes.htm, however, stated that carbon is generally bright. " 1. PVF (‘carbon’) strings: much too bright in comparison with any type of gut string. " I think that is true, where TREBLES are concerned, simply because the density of carbon is so high the strings are too thin, and also the unsanded strings are too smooth and have that bell note characteristic you mentioned. However when used for the MEANES, carbon might not be quite bright enough, compared to Venice, for example. According to Martin Shepherd, in difficult conditions, such as those you describe (or humid conditions, the oppositie scenario), on the 5th course, KF work as an acceptable replacement for Venice or Pistoy; but in that context they are in fact not bright enough to be used in unison. They need an octave string. "I find they work well for a 5th course on a 60cm lute. I first came across one of these on one of Jacob's lutes, and thought it was a gut string - it looked and felt exactly like a perfect, low-twist gut string. Even at this diameter, it is quite a stiff string, with very little peg movement resulting in a big change in pitch, and it takes a while to settle, but once settled in it works really well. I'm using it with an octave, of course, on 6c lute, and I'm not convinced it would necessarily be successful on a unison course, but it makes a very handy alternative for a gut string when you want to be "waterproof"."Martin Shepherd http://tinyurl.com/2husza Note that MP also says, "3. Nylgut: thin strings sound very close to gut, but does not quite compare by increasing diameters." Therefore, pehaps at the typical thickness of the 5th course diapason, Nylgut is already in difficulty, and KF is a possible alternative, if not entirely happy, solution. The fact that you do need an octave string, according to Martin is not a problem, as historically up till 1600 there was clear evidence that octave stringing was used on 5c and even 4c. This agrees with what Mimmo Peruffo also says about octave and unison, in the above mentioned article. In bad conditions, Jacob Heringman, nevertheless, continues to use gut diapasons, below the 5th course; then on the 5th course he uses KF, and everywhere above that he uses nylgut. including 1c, where nylgut is a slight problem. However, some lutists have suggested to me that it is best to use the next guage up, where nylgut is concerned on the 1c, to take care of its tendancy to stretch. At first sight Jacob seem to break the rules of the BASE/MEANE/TREBLE cut-off point, that MP describes, The break between Basses and Meanes does occur between 6c and 5c, as MP suggest historically was the case (here gut to synthetics), but then there is a break in the middle of the MEANES, with KF on 5, and Nylgut on 4). However, as Dowland also breaks Meanes into Small and Great Meanes, this may not be a problem for a smooth passage from BASSES to MEANES. Although, a French luthist who uses a similar set-up, tells me that he does use KF on 5c and 4c., and then above on 3c to 1c, he used to use nylgut, but is now experimenting with TN on 1c. It is rather a pity that while the thrust of MP's article is gut stringing, at the moment we are discussing synthetic replacement strings, as you definitely perfer gut, and I rarely use replacement strings at all. I notice that MP speaks a great deal about "equal to the touch tension" stringing, and I wonder how many luthists on our list use this method. Also he mentions the question of the octaves on the lower courses having been historically about half the tension of the basses themselves. "6. Octave strings: the modern tendency is to apply a noticeably lower tension than on their respective fundamental strings (Virdung, 1511 wrote that the octave's gauge must be half than the paired bass string)" I wonder whether most of you are using this historical string pattern, and also I am wondering about the low tension string solution that Satoh uses. Does this correspond well with the explanations in MP's article? Regards Anthony Le 3 nov. 07 à 08:12, David Tayler a écrit : To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Poulton #73 [was] dedillo
Nice version Ron! your's is a little bumpier than my version for 6 course, as you use a few more dotted notes than I, but otherwise they're very similar. Looking good for performance! Best wishes G. - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 4:38 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Poulton #73 [was] dedillo To All: I haven't been following this thread too closely but in case anyone is interested, we have posted a pdf of my performing edition of Poulton 73 on our web site for download. You can find it at http://www.mignarda.com/editions/downloads.html. I created this performing edition after hearing Paul O'Dette talk about it but don't think I followed his changes slavishly. Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
