[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Chadwick Neal]

Can I add, most of the lutes I've studied differ in their profiles from plan
view to elevation as well as having a non semi-circular cross section.
Twisting is inevitable.

 Yes one can build without twisting the ribs but then your plan and
elevation profiles would half to be identical, which doesn't really occur in
original lutes. I could be wrong, have been before.

Chad


-Original Message-
From: David Van Edwards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

In some cases, yes. Certainly theorbos have better projection when 
they have flattened cross-sections. And baroque lutes are noticeably 
non-circular in section. I think it's geometrically impossible to 
make these kind of shapes without twisting some of the ribs.

David

At 23:12 +0200 5/12/07, alexandros tzimeros wrote:
>I think one can build a lute with no semi-circular cross-section, without
>having to twist ribs. But why non semi-circular cross-section is that
>important? Can anyone tell for sure if the lute playing behind the curtain
>has a s.circular c. section or not?
>
-Original Message-

>"But it's difficult (but not impossible if you build a jig for
>each rib) to build the more complex shapes which are not
>semi-circular in cross-section and only a few of the historic
>surviving lutes are like that."
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[David Van Edwards]

In some cases, yes. Certainly theorbos have better projection when 
they have flattened cross-sections. And baroque lutes are noticeably 
non-circular in section. I think it's geometrically impossible to 
make these kind of shapes without twisting some of the ribs.

David

At 23:12 +0200 5/12/07, alexandros tzimeros wrote:
>I think one can build a lute with no semi-circular cross-section, without
>having to twist ribs. But why non semi-circular cross-section is that
>important? Can anyone tell for sure if the lute playing behind the curtain
>has a s.circular c. section or not?
>
-Original Message-

>"But it's difficult (but not impossible if you build a jig for
>each rib) to build the more complex shapes which are not
>semi-circular in cross-section and only a few of the historic
>surviving lutes are like that."
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[Din Ghani]

Hi David,

Thanks for your response to my query - to me it does make a lot of sense.
Compared to the process Rob outlined, it does involve a lot more drawing,
and plenty of accurate cutting out, but all working to well-defined
parameters... I guess it appeals to the engineer in me!

Best regards

Din





> -Original Message-
> From: David Van Edwards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: 05 December 2007 17:18
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
> Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
> 
> Dear Dan, Din, Jon, Rob etc,
> 
> I have nothing against solid moulds as this shows 
> http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/moulds.htm
> 
> In practice I use skeleton moulds for lutes with fewer than 
> 19 ribs and solid moulds for those with more. I find the 
> skeleton better for aligning ribs while building and they are 
> certainly quicker to make, which is why I showed them in my 
> courses. It even has historic precedent in the Arnault of 
> Zwolle manuscript. There are no historic moulds surviving, so 
> for all we know the original makers all used skeleton moulds, 
> though not in MDF, that horrid but useful material!
> 
> However in answer to Din's query I normally build up my solid 
> moulds in exactly the same way as the skeletons but with each 
> cross-section defined on paper first, which ensures the shape 
> remains as designed and allows me to make then hollow at the 
> same time. This makes the large theorbo moulds light enough 
> to handle with ease. After the cross-sections are all glued 
> up, the protruding corners are simply chiselled off leaving 
> the exact mould shape, as I show in the lower picture. It's a 
> nice metaphor to think of carving the air space and in fact 
> that's what I'm doing, but on paper first. Perhaps I'm more 
> used to seeing the 3D shape within the drawings having done 
> it so much.
> 
> Thirty years ago, when I first started, I used to build 
> without a mould in just the way Dan describes (following Ian 
> Harwood, who I think first came up with the idea) and it's 
> certainly a very quick method. But it's difficult (but not 
> impossible if you build a jig for each rib) to build the more 
> complex shapes which are not semi-circular in cross-section 
> and only a few of the historic surviving lutes are like that. 
> Most involve twisted and assymetric ribs and I came to prefer 
> these shapes, hence the large number of moulds.
> 
> As ever there are many routes to the same end.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> David
> 
> 
> At 16:25 + 4/12/07, Din Ghani wrote:
> >Jon,
> >
> >I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute 
> I'd like to 
> >try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with 
> >accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies 
> >me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be 
> able to work out how to go about it.
> >
> >I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate 
> >facets, following detailed instructions from David, and 
> using the lines 
> >and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. 
> >Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even 
> >mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you 
> might be 
> >able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I 
> assume there 
> >is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand 
> and a sharp eye?
> >
> >At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Din
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>  -Original Message-
> >>  From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>  Sent: 04 December 2007 14:22
> >>  To: 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
> >>  Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
> >>
> >>  Jon,
> >>
> >>  I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit  
> harder to 
> >> carve but the best is bass wood or boxwood.
> >>  Basswood carves like butter and is easy to finish. As an  
> >> avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so  that 
> >> the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or
> >>  so) can be made if you're feeling particularly industrious.
> >>
> >>  Best,
> >>  Rob Dorsey
> >>  http://RobDorsey.com
> >>
> >>  -Original Message-
> >>  From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>  Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM
> >>  To: lute-builder
> >>  Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
> >>
> >>  All,
> >>
> >>  I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make  a 
> >> solid one. I like the idea of sculpting the air within the 
>  body, and 
> >> as a woodcarver I have all the tools and skills for  
> shaping a solid 
> >> form. The confidence I'll gain from having
> >  > the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to
> >>  make the body of my incipient lute.
> >>
> >>  Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the  process, 
> >> but I doubt I could accomplish it without being  "

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[alexandros tzimeros]

"But it's difficult (but not impossible if you build a jig for 
each rib) to build the more complex shapes which are not 
semi-circular in cross-section and only a few of the historic 
surviving lutes are like that."

-Original Message-
I think one can build a lute with no semi-circular cross-section, without
having to twist ribs. But why non semi-circular cross-section is that
important? Can anyone tell for sure if the lute playing behind the curtain
has a s.circular c. section or not?




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: clips from the Nov.9 concert on Youtube

[Roman Turovsky]

Thanks; 'tis being mulled over.
RT



Please make a proper recording - this is beautiful stuff.

Rob

www.rmguitar.info


-Original Message-
From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 05 December 2007 18:33

To: BAROQUE-LUTE
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] clips from the Nov.9 concert on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzbm55DZV3s

RT



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar

[David Van Edwards]

Dear Dan, Din, Jon, Rob etc,

I have nothing against solid moulds as this shows 
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/moulds.htm

In practice I use skeleton moulds for lutes with fewer than 19 ribs 
and solid moulds for those with more. I find the skeleton better for 
aligning ribs while building and they are certainly quicker to make, 
which is why I showed them in my courses. It even has historic 
precedent in the Arnault of Zwolle manuscript. There are no historic 
moulds surviving, so for all we know the original makers all used 
skeleton moulds, though not in MDF, that horrid but useful material!

However in answer to Din's query I normally build up my solid moulds 
in exactly the same way as the skeletons but with each cross-section 
defined on paper first, which ensures the shape remains as designed 
and allows me to make then hollow at the same time. This makes the 
large theorbo moulds light enough to handle with ease. After the 
cross-sections are all glued up, the protruding corners are simply 
chiselled off leaving the exact mould shape, as I show in the lower 
picture. It's a nice metaphor to think of carving the air space and 
in fact that's what I'm doing, but on paper first. Perhaps I'm more 
used to seeing the 3D shape within the drawings having done it so 
much.

Thirty years ago, when I first started, I used to build without a 
mould in just the way Dan describes (following Ian Harwood, who I 
think first came up with the idea) and it's certainly a very quick 
method. But it's difficult (but not impossible if you build a jig for 
each rib) to build the more complex shapes which are not 
semi-circular in cross-section and only a few of the historic 
surviving lutes are like that. Most involve twisted and assymetric 
ribs and I came to prefer these shapes, hence the large number of 
moulds.

As ever there are many routes to the same end.

Best wishes,

David


At 16:25 + 4/12/07, Din Ghani wrote:
>Jon,
>
>I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a
>solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately
>curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with
>your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it.
>
>I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets,
>following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets
>from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I
>can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould
>are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt
>directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just
>on a steady hand and a sharp eye?
>
>At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman...
>
>Regards
>
>Din
>
>
>
>
>
>>  -Original Message-
>>  From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>  Sent: 04 December 2007 14:22
>>  To: 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder'
>>  Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
>>
>>  Jon,
>>
>>  I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit
>>  harder to carve but the best is bass wood or boxwood.
>>  Basswood carves like butter and is easy to finish. As an
>>  avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so
>>  that the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or
>>  so) can be made if you're feeling particularly industrious.
>>
>>  Best,
>>  Rob Dorsey
>>  http://RobDorsey.com
>>
>>  -Original Message-
>>  From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>  Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM
>>  To: lute-builder
>>  Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
>>
>>  All,
>>
>>  I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make
>>  a solid one. I like the idea of sculpting the air within the
>>  body, and as a woodcarver I have all the tools and skills for
>>  shaping a solid form. The confidence I'll gain from having
>  > the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to
>>  make the body of my incipient lute.
>>
>>  Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the
>>  process, but I doubt I could accomplish it without being
>>  "hands on" at his workshop (which is tempting, but June is a
>>  long time away).
>>
>>  Best, Jon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

[LUTE] Re: Musical Form Analysis

[Gordon Callon]

If you mean the common ostinato pattern such as Romanesca, Ruggiero, 
Passamezzo, etc., while we today can perceive these as harmonic patterns, in 
the 16th century they were generally expressed as linear bass patterns.

There is a PDF file at 
 that provides 
some common bass patterns as found in Ortiz (Trattado de Glossas sopra 
Clausulae, 1553). Included are Passamezzo antico, Romanesca, Folia, Passamezzo 
moderno [which can be perceived as the common bluegrass I IV I V, I IV I-V-I 
harmonic pattern], and Ruggiero.

An excellent article about such patterns (with musical examples in notation and 
MIDI) in the seventeenth century is available online:
Alexander Silbiger, "Passacaglia and Ciaccona: Genre Pairing and Ambiguity from 
Frescobaldi to Couperin", The Journal of Seventeenth-Century Music, Volume 2, 
no. 1 (1996): .

If you have access, for example through a local academic music library or 
public library, you can find discussions and examples of these patterns in 
Grove Music Online  (subscription service). You will 
need to search the various names and titles as well as "basso ostinato" and the 
like.

You should also look at Ortiz, Trattado de Glossas sopra Clausulae, 1553. As 
far as I know he does not supply the names, but he gives good examples (for 
viol and accompanying instrument) of how such bass patterns were used in 
improvisation. There is a good German edition published by Barenreiter. Any 
decent academic music library should have it.
Perhaps someone knows of an online version.

GJC

Gordon J Callon
Adjunct Professor
School of Music
Acadia University
Wolfville
Nova Scotia
Canada
B4P 2R6

http://ace.acadiau.ca/score/site-map.htm



-Original Message-
From: Omer katzir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wed 12/5/2007 12:05 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Musical Form Analysis  
 
Hi guys and girls,

Long time ego, when i was young and beautiful, i had a web site in my  
bookmarks with all kind of form analysis for dances and stuff, both  
harmonic and rhythmic analysis.

Now, I'm much older and uglier  and I can find this web site.

All i need is a basic form of renaissance dances some thing like: i V  
VII V I VI I in 3/4 and stuff like this.

Can any one help me finding a web site? can any one save me from the  
endless search in google?

Happy Christmas  or Chanukah for all!



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] CONCERT: Paul O'Dette in Cambridge MA, 8 March 2008

[Shannon Canavin - BEMF]

Paul O'Dette, lute

Ellen Hargis, soprano

 

Music of Monteverdi, Sances, Strozzi, and Castaldi

 

Saturday, March 8, 2008 at 8pm

First Church in Cambridge, Congregational in Harvard Square

 

Tickets: $25, $38, $49, $64; $5 off for students & seniors

Free pre-concert talk at 6:30pm - Free parking available

 

World-famous lutenist Paul O'Dette is joined by soprano Ellen Hargis for a
program of 17th-century Italian music presented by Boston Early Music
Festival.  Hailed as "the clearest case of genius ever to touch his
instrument," O'Dette has revolutionized and invigorated the field of lute
performance over his extraordinary 30+ year career with performances across
the globe and a staggering discography.  His partnership with Hargis has
been described as "highlight[ing] the best qualities of the music", and
their incomparable spirit of drama, vivid imagination, and avid interest in
the undiscovered makes each of their performances a revelation.

 

Tickets & Info at 617-661-1812 or WWW.BEMF.ORG  .

 

 

Shannon Canavin

General Manager

Boston Early Music Festival

161 First Street, Suite 202

Cambridge, MA  02142

Phone: 617-661-1812

Fax: 617-661-1816

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.bemf.org

 

"An astounding assortment of concerts." -- The New York Times

 

"The highlight of local opera presentations comes every two years when the
Boston Early Music Festival unearths rare gems from the Baroque repertory
and presents them in bravura fashion." -- The Boston Herald

 


--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Musical Form Analysis

[LGS-Europe]

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but comes close.
Fuzea Editions of France has a (cheap at 17,50 euros) edition of 50 
Standards of the Renaisance and Baroque eras. Theme + bass and figures. 
Variations of the themes and variations on the themes. Some in different 
keys. Very convenient for learning continuo, for playing improvisations on 
well-known themes, for filling time in back ground playing, for making your 
own versions and for the sheer fun of playing all this inspiring music. 
French and English editions available. Go to

www.musiqueclassique.fuzeau.fr and look for 50 Standards.

David





David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl



- Original Message - 
From: "Omer katzir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 5:05 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Musical Form Analysis



Hi guys and girls,

Long time ego, when i was young and beautiful, i had a web site in my 
bookmarks with all kind of form analysis for dances and stuff, both 
harmonic and rhythmic analysis.


Now, I'm much older and uglier  and I can find this web site.

All i need is a basic form of renaissance dances some thing like: i V  VII 
V I VI I in 3/4 and stuff like this.


Can any one help me finding a web site? can any one save me from the 
endless search in google?


Happy Christmas  or Chanukah for all!



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Musical Form Analysis

[Omer katzir]

Hi guys and girls,

Long time ego, when i was young and beautiful, i had a web site in my  
bookmarks with all kind of form analysis for dances and stuff, both  
harmonic and rhythmic analysis.


Now, I'm much older and uglier  and I can find this web site.

All i need is a basic form of renaissance dances some thing like: i V  
VII V I VI I in 3/4 and stuff like this.


Can any one help me finding a web site? can any one save me from the  
endless search in google?


Happy Christmas  or Chanukah for all!



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction

[Din Ghani]

Troy,

It does depend on what method you will be following. If you do go with DvE's
CDROM, he includes a whole section on the minimum kit you need for his
method. He also give a lot of advice and hints on using various tools in
various tasks. Getting and keeping your tools sharp is probably one of the
key success factors, and he provides another section on this (including
sharpening scrapers - although I have yet to master this!).

Regarding a workbench, I think you need as much work area as you can get
(but then I'm a messy worker!). In any case, you'll find yourself colonizing
the kitchen table and other domestic spaces for various tasks...

Hope this helps

Din

> -Original Message-
> From: Troy Wheeler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: 05 December 2007 12:17
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute construction
> 
> 
> So gentleman,
>  
> if there is a minimum regarding tools needed to get started such as:
>  
> work bench (any particular size?)
> carving tools
> measuring tools
> planes
>  
> what would that minimum be?
>  
> Best Regards
>  
> TW
> _
> Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download 
> today it's FREE!
> http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sha
> relife_112007
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Lute construction

[Troy Wheeler]

So gentleman,
 
if there is a minimum regarding tools needed to get started
such as:
 
work bench (any particular size?)
carving tools
measuring tools
planes
 
what would that minimum be?
 
Best Regards
 
TW
_
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE!
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007
--

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[LUTE] Publishers' corrections

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Arthur,

To add to your collection:

1) The introduction to Kapsberger's Libro Quarto loses some very important dots 
in the SPES facsimile.

2) There is a note missing in the Minkoff facsimile of Campion's guitar music.

I can provide chapter and verse, if you like.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

- Original Message - 
From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Lute Net'" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 5:38 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online


> Dear Denys,
> 
> It could be that the missing "2" on folio 37v is something that
> Mrs. Minkoff retouched.  This would suggest that in 1992 she
> re-used the
> 1978 facsimile pages.  Hers was an innocent activity.  She just
> wanted everything to look neat and clean.  When she was
> criticized (I think it was in a review by Bob Spencer), she took
> the remarks in very good humor, and realized her mistake.
> 
> I'll get on to some examples of publisher's corrections.  And why
> it is helpful to know where a given print came from.  In a sense
> it sometimes has to do with establishing authority for a given
> reading.
> 
> ==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

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[LUTE] Re: Swanneck & Weiss?

[Taco Walstra]

On Sunday 02 December 2007 18:33, Daniel Winheld rattled on the keyboard:
> One thing I haven't seen anyone address re the swanneck- fingered
> accidentals on courses 9 - 11. How are you folks dealing with these
> situations? Up an octave, or eliminate those pieces from your
> repertoire?  Dan
I have a swanneck strung with gut (see website of stephen barber and sandi 
harris  http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/ ) and yes, especially Weiss has in 
(fortunately) very few pieces a fingered accendental on low courses. In most 
cases it can be solved by transposing. If you listen carefully how robert 
barto solves these weiss passages on his jauck, you will note that he also 
transposes these notes. 
Taco



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