[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On the subject of lutenists accommodating (or not) singers: Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and singer - I'm thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed on? Would the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the singer had trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the singer helpfully adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute accompaniment? Or does it just work with voice and lute in different temperaments? I've never been clear about this... Andrew On 15 Feb 2009, at 07:52, David Tayler wrote: Dowland transposed all the time--except he put the music into a MORE difficult key. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
Dear Arto and all, After the brief discussion about theorbo prices, I looked around for of other makers prices to reevaluate the worth of my theorbo by Nico van der Waals I am currently offering for sale for 7900€ (original price was 8250€ back in 2002). I am now certain that my asking price is quite fair for such a reputable maker and for an exceptionally good sounding instrument in mint condition. These are examples of similarly decorated instruments taken from up to date prices of three good makers including a Kingham case. I do not have information about Paul Tomson and Michael Lowe but I know these are much more expensive and their waiting list is even not considerable if you need an instrument in the near future. Stephen Barber 7,777€ Stephen Gottlieb 9,105 € Grant Tomlinson 9800 US $ = 7,604 € + 390 Kingham case = 7994 € (last years price) I know that Arto did not want to suggest that my theorbo was too expensive but in an indirect way he actually did. For that reason I feel compelled to defend myself and demonstrate the fairness of my asking price. Greetings, Alfonso On Feb 14, 2009, at 12:20 AM, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: On 2/13/2009, "Alfonso Marin" wrote: I am offering my Theorbo by NIco van der Waals for sale. .. Selling price is 7900 . The instrument really looks very beautiful! But is this really the price level of today? 7800 euros for a quality theorbo? In that case I am a rich man! On the other hand we lutenists have been happy for years for the prices of our instruments - just take a look to all others, even to modern guitarists ordering hand made instruments... Happily I've bought my instruments in the times that were not so good to luthiers! ;-)Best wishes to Stephen B. and Sandy! ;-)) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Hi all! Andrew wrote: On the subject of lutenists accommodating (or not) singers: Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and singer - I'm thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed on? Would the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the singer had trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the singer helpfully adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute accompaniment? Or does it just work with voice and lute in different temperaments? I've never been clear about this... In my opinion composers who set music to words would have been inclined to use special sonorities offered by unequal temperaments to underline the sentiment of word. A singer singing in another temperament would certainly destroy or at least alter these effects. I for one find the alteration of more and less pure intervals, when for instance a 6th comma meantone temperament is employed, highly exciting. Cheers, Lex van Sante -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
Seems fair to me, Alfonso. Everything is expensive, but your asking price is fair. Rob 2009/2/15 Alfonso Marin <[1]luten...@gmail.com> Dear Arto and all, After the brief discussion about theorbo prices, I looked around for of other makers prices to reevaluate the worth of my theorbo by Nico van der Waals I am currently offering for sale for 7900 (original price was 8250 back in 2002). I am now certain that my asking price is quite fair for such a reputable maker and for an exceptionally good sounding instrument in mint condition. These are examples of similarly decorated instruments taken from up to date prices of three good makers including a Kingham case. I do not have information about Paul Tomson and Michael Lowe but I know these are much more expensive and their waiting list is even not considerable if you need an instrument in the near future. Stephen Barber 7,777 Stephen Gottlieb 9,105 Grant Tomlinson 9800 US $ = 7,604 + 390 Kingham case = 7994 (last years price) I know that Arto did not want to suggest that my theorbo was too expensive but in an indirect way he actually did. For that reason I feel compelled to defend myself and demonstrate the fairness of my asking price. Greetings, Alfonso On Feb 14, 2009, at 12:20 AM, [2]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: On 2/13/2009, "Alfonso Marin" <[3]luten...@gmail.com> wrote: I am offering my Theorbo by NIco van der Waals for sale. .. Selling price is 7900 . The instrument really looks very beautiful! But is this really the price level of today? 7800 euros for a quality theorbo? In that case I am a rich man! On the other hand we lutenists have been happy for years for the prices of our instruments - just take a look to all others, even to modern guitarists ordering hand made instruments... Happily I've bought my instruments in the times that were not so good to luthiers! ;-)Best wishes to Stephen B. and Sandy! ;-)) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:luten...@gmail.com 2. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 3. mailto:luten...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
Dear Alonso et al. On 2/15/2009, "Alfonso Marin" wrote: [...] > I know that Arto did not want to suggest that my theorbo was too > expensive but in an indirect way he actually did. For that reason I > feel compelled to defend myself and demonstrate the fairness of my > asking price. Yes, I did not try to make any harm. Sorry if I did! My main message was that lutes have long been cheaper than many other instruments: > > On the other hand we lutenists have been happy for years for the > > prices > > of our instruments - just take a look to all others, even to modern > > guitarists ordering hand made instruments... All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Feb 15, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Lex van Sante wrote: >Hi all! > >Andrew wrote: > >On the subject of lutenists accommodating (or not) singers: >Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and > singer - I'm >thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed > on? Would >the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the singer had >trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the singer > helpfully >adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute accompaniment? Or > does it >just work with voice and lute in different temperaments? I've never >been clear about this... A not-so-unlikely scenario: soprano: Uh, I think we're a little harsh-sounding at this point here. lutenist: Uh, I am playing in multiple- comma-6thtone-7thtone-8thtone-9thtone-semicolontone-meantone tuning, which is the appropriate tuning for the period of April 17th, 1589 through March 25th, 1637: the era that this song comes from soprano thinks, "what is this guy, some kind of seminar junkie?" and goes out and finds herself a better musician. lutenist for ever after condemns all sopranos for being "temperamental" and stubbornly resistant to his attempts to educate them in the ways of HIP soprano finds another lutenist. They try the song. It comes out perfectly. soprano, delighted with her second lutenist, repeats to herself the old dictum, "when you're working with a good musician there's not much need to say anything; when you're not working with a good musician, there's not much point in saying anything" >In my opinion composers who set music to words would have been > inclined >to use special sonorities offered by unequal temperaments to > underline >the sentiment of word. A singer singing in another temperament > would >certainly destroy or at least alter these effects. Agreed, but adjustments can be made if both musicians know what they're doing, and are willing to negotiate. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Feb 15, 2009, at 3:22 AM, Andrew Gibbs wrote: > Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and singer - > I'm thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed > on? Would the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the > singer had trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the > singer helpfully adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute > accompaniment? Or does it just work with voice and lute in > different temperaments? I've never been clear about this... Temperament is mostly the concern of musicians who play fixed-pitch instruments. A singer doesn't have to worry about it, because the singer can adjust as needed. Temperament is just a poor substitute for what a good singer does as a matter of course. In any event, it strikes me as unlikely to the point of absurdity that a singer could remember and reproduce the difference between fifth-comma and sixth-comma meantone, but no singer I've ever worked with has even had occasion to talk about temperament. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 6:55 PM, howard posner wrote: > Temperament is mostly the concern of musicians who play fixed-pitch > instruments. A singer doesn't have to worry about it, because the > singer can adjust as needed. Temperament is just a poor substitute > for what a good singer does as a matter of course. > > In any event, it strikes me as unlikely to the point of absurdity > that a singer could remember and reproduce the difference between > fifth-comma and sixth-comma meantone, 1/5 or 1/6 MT is an absurd example, you're right, but ET, 1/4 MT or Pythagorean temperaments are wide enough apart to be _very_ obvious to any singer. Most singers are aware of what is happening around them, without giving it the names we do, as there's no need for them to understand the system used. In stead, they will remember things like wide thirds, take care with the d#, not quite pure fifths, etc. And many singers will ofcourse adjust thirds in final chords to their own taste, or to the temperament at hand, depending on the temperament/divaness of the singer. I'm often asked to leave out the thirds in final chords to give the change to the singer to make a more beautiful one than my fixed fret can give. But any sensitive continuo player will do this as a matter of course. As said here before: with good musicians there's no need to discuss anything, with the bad ones there's no use. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo by Nic. Nic. B. van der Waals for sale
On Feb 15, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Alfonso Marin wrote: > I know that Arto did not want to suggest that my theorbo was too > expensive but in an indirect way he actually did. For that reason I > feel compelled to defend myself and demonstrate the fairness of my > asking price. That would depend... It ain't one of them TOY theorbos, is it? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009, William Brohinsky said: > Caroline merely needs to declare the local pitch standard to be A=494. > Now, her (previously A=440) lute is in G, and she can satisfy her > vocalist's request without having to change her lute at all! ?!? no change to the lute means no change for the singer, me thinks you been hanging out with the rastafarans. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
>As said here before: with good musicians there's no need to >discuss anything, with the bad ones there's no use. >David Does that mean that we are neither? :) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
This is a point I'd like to understand better, too. Learning to fret one's instrument and be (nominally) in tune w/ other instruments forces us to confront meantone and understand it to some degree. If we always play on our own or only with other ET instruments we don't have to. When two lutenists get together we immediately see whether the other is in a temperment or not. Singers aren't so forced or so, ahem, 'nerdy' and often won't know what meantone we use. Indeed, aurally, using a 1/6 comma often only appears evident to _us_ in an overall feeling of "Gosh my lute sounds slightly more in tune" without knowing the science behind it. Face it, we hear the better intonation because we are actually playing the 3rds & 6ths _against_ another note --ie. we play polyphony-- even when we play on our own. What keeps singers' 3rds and 6ths true if they constantly switch from ET to various temperments (if they ever switch at all)? One can hope they're understanding what's going on by ear but I keep imagining the following scenario: EK: Would you like to try a form of meantone for the Dowland songs? Sting: A what? From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly choose a specific meantone scale? Do you ever get instructions to (not) temper your frets? Is there an unspoken, assumed rule of thumb here? When you set up with a new group do you ask about meantone? Of course it's not necessary to say anything but if I suggested 1/4 comma to a professional singer or group (for an appropriate era, piece or concert) would that be out of line? There are groups that don't appear to resolve this --to the audiences' dismay. Sean On Feb 15, 2009, at 4:51 AM, Lex van Sante wrote: Hi all! Andrew wrote: On the subject of lutenists accommodating (or not) singers: Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and singer - I'm thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed on? Would the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the singer had trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the singer helpfully adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute accompaniment? Or does it just work with voice and lute in different temperaments? I've never been clear about this... In my opinion composers who set music to words would have been inclined to use special sonorities offered by unequal temperaments to underline the sentiment of word. A singer singing in another temperament would certainly destroy or at least alter these effects. I for one find the alteration of more and less pure intervals, when for instance a 6th comma meantone temperament is employed, highly exciting. Cheers, Lex van Sante -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009, Sean Smith said: > Singers aren't so forced or so, ahem, 'nerdy' and often won't know what > meantone we use. it varies, many of us dont have a clue as to much of much theory; but we all have ears, and some of us use them, both in play and with voice. Singers in small ensembles will adjust individual notes to make good harmony, sometimes this drfits the tuning of the whole ensemble. When dissonance is a feature of the music it helps if someone in the group has a strong internal memory of pitch, but that is not always obtained. > From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly > choose a specific meantone scale? amateur chorist more than pro, but a bit of both. Directors vary, and the quality of their chorists also vary, mosts directors try to get 'the most' out of the forces they command, but with a dose of reality as to expectation. As a player I have been asked to tune specific notes (both wind and lute), and I have seen viols etc similarly treated, I have also played in small ensembles sans directoire who had members who were sensitive and saw to it that we made the attempt. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Sean Smith wrote: > > From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly > choose a specific meantone scale? Do you ever get instructions to (not) > temper your frets? I'm a pro and get hired as such: gun for hire. Sometimes that means I have to shut up and do as I'm told. Sometimes that means I am aksed to be involved, advise, give feed back. On some of my contracts it says Sorge, 1/4 comma mean tone, 1/6 comma mean tone, Valotti, Werckmeister III, Jägermeister IV or equal temperament (if it's ET, they usually don't specify as apparently they're not quite HIP-minded or plain ignorant). Sometimes the conductor calls me beforehand to ask what might be a good idea for the music or what is possible for me. (I even get called by conductors that ask me why their lute player - not me - is refusing to set his frets in MT, it _is_ possible after all, isn't it?) Sometimes the organ/cembalo player and I call each other before hand to decide what to propose to the conductor in case we are fearing to be stuck in ET or somthing Equally Impossible. With some orchestras some temperaments are more or less standard (Florilegium (if their usual organ player plays) = Sorge, Swaen = 1/6 comma mean tone), with some organ/cembalo player I know what to expect (Pieter is Werckmeister-Pieter, blast!, Vincent = close-to-Sorge-but-tuned-by-ear-so-don't-set-your-tuner-on-it, Siebe = 'Bach' temperament), with some music some temperaments are more or less expected (Monteverdi = 1/4 comma mean tone).That's just my experience, FWIW or whatever abbreviating is called for to make this a non-absolute truth. David - happily played ET in many transposed (Dowland and other) songs today -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: moving soundboard from workshop to house
just wanted to say thanks to you all for the rich discussion on this Chris Timothy Motz wrote: Thank you Dana. That was my point exactly and you explained it better than I did. I've worked in art museums for 25 years, where we are very concerned with temperature and humidity for reasons similar to those of luthiers. The ideal is about 68 degrees Farenheit and about 55 percent relative humidity, with minimal variation. Should a gallery have problems with dropping humidity, the easiest way to fix that is to drop the temperature a bit. But these days with modern computer controlled HVAC systems that hardly every happens. I keep one of my first lutes in the office to practice on during my lunch hour, and it rarely goes out of tune as a result, even with gut strings. One thing that DvE and Spanish guitar builders don't deal with as much as American builders is excessively high indoor temperatures (above 72 degrees Farenheit) with resulting extremely low relative humidity, close to that of desert conditions. Even with a humidifier on my furnace and the temperature kept at 68 degrees, I get nosebleeds at home from the dry air and have to use saline sprays. So when I say I assemble instruments in the winter, that's the extreme temperature/humidity conditions I'm attempting to compensate for. I lived in Italy for a short time, and I do remember that they didn't keep their indoor temperatures at NEARLY what I was used to. Lots of sweaters. So the seasonal changes in humidity might be less drastic. I appreciated Richard's explanation of what happens during the compression of a soundboard due to swelling. I had never stopped to consider it's effects on the wood fibers. Tim On Feb 11, 2009, at 8:30 PM, wrote: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009, rel...@sbcglobal.net said: where I disagree with one of the posts ( If I read it correctly ) is that I believe that generally humidity goes DOWN with cold and UP with warmer air - Perhaps you are confusing what happens in experiemnets with observations of steady-states. Consider a large room, sufficiently sealed that we can experiment inside it. The amount of water vapor can be considered constant (well, it increases as the humans inside breath out moist air, make the room large enuogh and that can be neglected). If the air of the room is cooled, the capacity of the air to hold it decreases, and the relative humidity increases; cool it enough and you can make it rain inside the room. Stabilise the room as to both temperature and moisture content, with some pieces of wood present (they too are stabilized). Raise the temperature in the room and the air will have a greater capacity to hold moisture. The moisture in the wood will migrate to the air until the relative humiditys stabilize again. Central heating systems using forced hot air take in cold air from the outside, lower its RH by heating it, and dry out all the wood in the house (and the people) in the process. Sometimes there is a humidifier that adds water vapor to the hot air, more comomonly not. Arctic air is often pretty dry to begin with, making this the dryest of the seasons for most of us. they only did their glue ups on tops during the later part of the summer when they knew the humidity to be around 5 or so percent LOWER than the typical humidity in which the instruments were to live. yes, very important. Some will have climate control in their shops, but not all can do that; historically one worked on various tasks as the seasons allowed. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.21/1945 - Release Date: 02/11/09 08:01:00
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Thank you, Dana and David. I figured your experiences would be all over the map and dictated by the conductors' whims but was also interested in the politics of the decision. Interesting also to see that a 1/4 meantone is ocassionally used. I would hope so whenever natural horns have a large presence, btw. ...fwiw. Dana, I had wondered about drift especially when some of the choristers are more aware of the meantone workings than others. As a piece modulates to, say, the II or iii, it is probably very difficult to keep the original scale intact. Sean On Feb 15, 2009, at 2:18 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Sean Smith wrote: From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly choose a specific meantone scale? Do you ever get instructions to (not) temper your frets? I'm a pro and get hired as such: gun for hire. Sometimes that means I have to shut up and do as I'm told. Sometimes that means I am aksed to be involved, advise, give feed back. On some of my contracts it says Sorge, 1/4 comma mean tone, 1/6 comma mean tone, Valotti, Werckmeister III, Jägermeister IV or equal temperament (if it's ET, they usually don't specify as apparently they're not quite HIP-minded or plain ignorant). Sometimes the conductor calls me beforehand to ask what might be a good idea for the music or what is possible for me. (I even get called by conductors that ask me why their lute player - not me - is refusing to set his frets in MT, it _is_ possible after all, isn't it?) Sometimes the organ/cembalo player and I call each other before hand to decide what to propose to the conductor in case we are fearing to be stuck in ET or somthing Equally Impossible. With some orchestras some temperaments are more or less standard (Florilegium (if their usual organ player plays) = Sorge, Swaen = 1/6 comma mean tone), with some organ/cembalo player I know what to expect (Pieter is Werckmeister-Pieter, blast!, Vincent = close-to-Sorge-but-tuned-by-ear-so-don't-set-your-tuner-on-it, Siebe = 'Bach' temperament), with some music some temperaments are more or less expected (Monteverdi = 1/4 comma mean tone).That's just my experience, FWIW or whatever abbreviating is called for to make this a non-absolute truth. David - happily played ET in many transposed (Dowland and other) songs today -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
