[LUTE] Re: Breaking pitch
Oh, this is classic, Golden Age lute list stuff here! Hah!! If I may rephrase Guy Smith's Sam Clemens quotation: When we remember that all lute players are mad, the mysteries disappear and theorboes stand explained. -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] possible scam warning!!!!! be careful.... from Anton Birula
Dear List, Want to inform you about suspected scam. I received and email from Brad Baker, offering a baroque guitar which looked too good to be real, then I even called the guy but once I asked more detailes he pretended he does not hear me Then I serched in google and got this: http://www.650motorcycles.com/ForSale.html Just to warn you. looks like a set up Best wishes Anton == Hi, I am Brad Baker.I came accross your wanted advert and email address on http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html#wanted I would like to inform you that i have 5 course baroque guitar For Sale @ $900(Give Away Price)including shipping to your front door in Finland via Courier express delivery.The price of this lutes are more than $2,500.You can't get it this price($900)anywhere.Hurry up now,this is give away price. I await your reply. Thanks, Brad Baker Tel:+44 702 403 8157(dial direct) --- On Tue, 2/17/09, LUTE DUO Anna Kowalska Anton Birula i...@luteduo.com wrote: From: LUTE DUO Anna Kowalska Anton Birula i...@luteduo.com Subject: Re: 5 course baroque guitar For Sale $900(Give Away Price) To: Brad Baker bradbake...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 10:42 PM I am afraid you are mistaken , my ddress is not on wanted list... but it is interesting in a way... who made the instrument? Anton Hi Anton, Thank you for your email.This is not a mistake.I just want to sell it at an auction price of $900 because my wife is very sick of cancer so she needs emergency operation.It is made by Elena dal Cortivo.The price of this lute is over $2,500 but i just want to give it away $900 because of my wife bad cancer problem.The $900 also include shipping and handling charges to your shipping address.Where are you located?I would also need your shipping address for the shipment.I will ship as soon as i confirm payment..I am located in London,England.I will ship via UPS or Fed Ex express delivery. I await your reply. Thanks, Brad Baker Tel:+44 702 403 8157(dial direct) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Breaking pitch
Dear Mimmo and All, If I have understood you correctly, there is a sort of contradiction : as gut becomes thicker, it must be treated to make it more flexible (higher twist and possibly softening chemicals), or else it becomes inharmonic. The more flexible it is, for a given diameter, however, the less tension it can stand (the Breaking Index drops). Thus it is not the thickness itself, but the way thick gut is treated that makes it break quicker than thin gut? You say the Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m, but this is only true true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), where strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals. Does this mean that it is possible to substitute say a 44 treble anywhere where it is safe to use a 42 treble, keeping exactly the same breaking point in Hz; or does your more or less imply that even for 38 till 46 mm there will be a slight difference in twist or hardening, which could mean the 44 would be less strong than the 42? Of course I realize that such a substitution would increase the playing tension, which may or may not be an advantage. Regards Anthony with a 44 treble Le 18 févr. 09 à 07:21, Mimmo Peruffo a écrit : Hello guys, Just an observation: the suggested average of the Breacking Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m. However, the full range of modern lute strings ranging between 240- 300 Hz.mt. This is true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), were strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals. The Breacking Index drop in the case that we are speacking of thicker 1st strings, were they are made with more twist than the lute chantarelles. Example: on the 1st bass gamba strings the Breacking Index drop of a semitone-tone than the lute 1st strings. In fact this is function of some technological things: the twist quantity and the use (or not) of some substances ables to do gut harder etc etc. If we go in the range of the violone 1st strings the breacking Index drop again and again because such strings are made very very high twist and without any chemical tretment able to do gut stiffer. This is why, in my wiew, the calculated Working Indexes (the product of the string scale X the supposed frequencies of the 1st strings) of the bowed instruments in the Praetorous tables drop step- by -step when the instrument became longer. So on Violins we are in the average of 210 HZ/mt while, on violones, we drop to arround 180 Hz/m only. Ciao Mimmo alexander ha scritto: No one seems to object, and the talk continues as if the very people that gave u s all the amazing instruments we play, were totally ignorant as far as the oh, s o stupid tune almost to the breaking point line goes. The simple truth of the matter is that any string made of the same material will break at the same pitch , no matter its' diameter, as long as the string length is the same. Some here s till remember Eph Segerman?.. The stress on the string (represented by S) is the tension divided by the cross-sectional area, so S=T/A. The tensile strength of a material is defined as the stress at breaking (which we can represent by SB). Then the breaking frequency, represented by fB becomes: fB = (1/2L)sqrt(SB/r). This demonstrates that the breaking pitch is inversely proportional to the string stop. In the formula, (as can not be seen here, unfortunately) the invert relation is only between the pitch, length and the breaking point stress. Diameter plays no role. All this means a very simple truth - all the instruments of the same mensu ra tuned close to the breaking point of a given material, will have the same pit ch, to the same degree as an organ pipe of the same length and diameter will pro duce the same pitch, be it in France or England. I hazard to say that, among pro fessionals who used no rotten strings and preferred particular strings made by the same makers and even at particular time of the year, the pitch standard was no worse then nowadays. alexander On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:29:32 -0800 howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Feb 17, 2009, at 5:43 PM, [2]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: How many of us really follow this fundamental of lute stringing today? We tune our instruments to arbitrarily agreed upon pitches like 415, 392, 440 etc because its practical. If we were to do the truly historical thing, Jeff's G lute would be at 449, Joe's at 412, Tina's at 463 and Bill's at 398. That wouldn't have worked in 1610 either. They all had to use an agreed pitch if they were going to play together, unless they were into the whole John Cage thing. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: possible scam warning!!!!! be careful.... from Anton Birula
The phone number appears genuine...but it is not a land-line http://www.ukphoneinfo.com/search.php?GNG=07024038157Submit=Submitd=nl 0044 is the international dialling code to the UK This replaces the first 0 for national calls. Over to you Ron UK -Original Message- From: Anton Birula [mailto:image...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:05 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] possible scam warning! be careful from Anton Birula Dear List, Want to inform you about suspected scam. I received and email from Brad Baker, offering a baroque guitar which looked too good to be real, then I even called the guy but once I asked more detailes he pretended he does not hear me Then I serched in google and got this: http://www.650motorcycles.com/ForSale.html Just to warn you. looks like a set up Best wishes Anton == Hi, I am Brad Baker.I came accross your wanted advert and email address on http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html#wanted I would like to inform you that i have 5 course baroque guitar For Sale @ $900(Give Away Price)including shipping to your front door in Finland via Courier express delivery.The price of this lutes are more than $2,500.You can't get it this price($900)anywhere.Hurry up now,this is give away price. I await your reply. Thanks, Brad Baker Tel:+44 702 403 8157(dial direct) --- On Tue, 2/17/09, LUTE DUO Anna Kowalska Anton Birula i...@luteduo.com wrote: From: LUTE DUO Anna Kowalska Anton Birula i...@luteduo.com Subject: Re: 5 course baroque guitar For Sale $900(Give Away Price) To: Brad Baker bradbake...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 10:42 PM I am afraid you are mistaken , my ddress is not on wanted list... but it is interesting in a way... who made the instrument? Anton Hi Anton, Thank you for your email.This is not a mistake.I just want to sell it at an auction price of $900 because my wife is very sick of cancer so she needs emergency operation.It is made by Elena dal Cortivo.The price of this lute is over $2,500 but i just want to give it away $900 because of my wife bad cancer problem.The $900 also include shipping and handling charges to your shipping address.Where are you located?I would also need your shipping address for the shipment.I will ship as soon as i confirm payment..I am located in London,England.I will ship via UPS or Fed Ex express delivery. I await your reply. Thanks, Brad Baker Tel:+44 702 403 8157(dial direct) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Breaking pitch
Hello Anthony, My first answer is: yes, for the string formula the diameter is, teorethically, ininfluent. So the breacking index is always the same. However, in practise there are some difference due to the surface treatments ables to do a string polished etc etc. My 'more or less' mean a certain range of gauges like those I wrote: I do not know if other stringmakers employ the special technical way useful to do thiner lute trbles for thicker gauges. However, the breacking idex is the same for all these gauges. I mean that if you increase the diameter also the tension go up of the same ammount. So diameter/tension for unit is always a costant. Tne only pratical difference, using a thicker gauge, is that the resistance to the superficial abrasion caused by sweet fingers is better. I mean: less hairs on the string. Mimmo Anthony Hind ha scritto: Dear Mimmo and All, If I have understood you correctly, there is a sort of contradiction : as gut becomes thicker, it must be treated to make it more flexible (higher twist and possibly softening chemicals), or else it becomes inharmonic. The more flexible it is, for a given diameter, however, the less tension it can stand (the Breaking Index drops). Thus it is not the thickness itself, but the way thick gut is treated that makes it break quicker than thin gut? You say the Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m, but this is only true true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), where strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals. Does this mean that it is possible to substitute say a 44 treble anywhere where it is safe to use a 42 treble, keeping exactly the same breaking point in Hz; or does your more or less imply that even for 38 till 46 mm there will be a slight difference in twist or hardening, which could mean the 44 would be less strong than the 42? Of course I realize that such a substitution would increase the playing tension, which may or may not be an advantage. Regards Anthony Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Versione database: 5.11780 [1]http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ -- References 1. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Breaking pitch
The degree of twist is decisive, when all the rest is equal for a given gut (treatment, animal of origin, etc) for the breaking strength. I would hazard that .44 is made with the same twist by the same maker as .42. Which means if your instrument can take it, it will substitute for .42 just fine. .44 will be equally strong. The need to change the twist degree arrives at other diameter ranges, it appears. Interestingly enough, the working string length of historical instruments, drops slightly in relation to the mathematical formula, which means that, as Mimmo pointed out, the string twist was higher for the longer instruments. alexander On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:29:08 +0100 Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr wrote: Dear Mimmo and All, If I have understood you correctly, there is a sort of contradiction : as gut becomes thicker, it must be treated to make it more flexible (higher twist and possibly softening chemicals), or else it becomes inharmonic. The more flexible it is, for a given diameter, however, the less tension it can stand (the Breaking Index drops). Thus it is not the thickness itself, but the way thick gut is treated that makes it break quicker than thin gut? You say the Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m, but this is only true true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), where strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals. Does this mean that it is possible to substitute say a 44 treble anywhere where it is safe to use a 42 treble, keeping exactly the same breaking point in Hz; or does your more or less imply that even for 38 till 46 mm there will be a slight difference in twist or hardening, which could mean the 44 would be less strong than the 42? Of course I realize that such a substitution would increase the playing tension, which may or may not be an advantage. Regards Anthony with a 44 treble Le 18 févr. 09 à 07:21, Mimmo Peruffo a écrit : Hello guys, Just an observation: the suggested average of the Breacking Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m. However, the full range of modern lute strings ranging between 240- 300 Hz.mt. This is true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), were strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals. The Breacking Index drop in the case that we are speacking of thicker 1st strings, were they are made with more twist than the lute chantarelles. Example: on the 1st bass gamba strings the Breacking Index drop of a semitone-tone than the lute 1st strings. In fact this is function of some technological things: the twist quantity and the use (or not) of some substances ables to do gut harder etc etc. If we go in the range of the violone 1st strings the breacking Index drop again and again because such strings are made very very high twist and without any chemical tretment able to do gut stiffer. This is why, in my wiew, the calculated Working Indexes (the product of the string scale X the supposed frequencies of the 1st strings) of the bowed instruments in the Praetorous tables drop step- by -step when the instrument became longer. So on Violins we are in the average of 210 HZ/mt while, on violones, we drop to arround 180 Hz/m only. Ciao Mimmo alexander ha scritto: To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Breaking pitch
Thank you both, Mimmo and Alexander, for your very complete answers Anthony Le 18 févr. 09 à 13:20, alexander a écrit : The degree of twist is decisive, when all the rest is equal for a given gut (treatment, animal of origin, etc) for the breaking strength. I would hazard that .44 is made with the same twist by the same maker as .42. Which means if your instrument can take it, it will substitute for .42 just fine. .44 will be equally strong. The need to change the twist degree arrives at other diameter ranges, it appears. Interestingly enough, the working string length of historical instruments, drops slightly in relation to the mathematical formula, which means that, as Mimmo pointed out, the string twist was higher for the longer instruments. alexander On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:29:08 +0100 Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr wrote: Dear Mimmo and All, If I have understood you correctly, there is a sort of contradiction : as gut becomes thicker, it must be treated to make it more flexible (higher twist and possibly softening chemicals), or else it becomes inharmonic. The more flexible it is, for a given diameter, however, the less tension it can stand (the Breaking Index drops). Thus it is not the thickness itself, but the way thick gut is treated that makes it break quicker than thin gut? You say the Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m, but this is only true true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), where strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals. Does this mean that it is possible to substitute say a 44 treble anywhere where it is safe to use a 42 treble, keeping exactly the same breaking point in Hz; or does your more or less imply that even for 38 till 46 mm there will be a slight difference in twist or hardening, which could mean the 44 would be less strong than the 42? Of course I realize that such a substitution would increase the playing tension, which may or may not be an advantage. Regards Anthony with a 44 treble Le 18 févr. 09 à 07:21, Mimmo Peruffo a écrit : Hello guys, Just an observation: the suggested average of the Breacking Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m. However, the full range of modern lute strings ranging between 240- 300 Hz.mt. This is true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), were strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals. The Breacking Index drop in the case that we are speacking of thicker 1st strings, were they are made with more twist than the lute chantarelles. Example: on the 1st bass gamba strings the Breacking Index drop of a semitone-tone than the lute 1st strings. In fact this is function of some technological things: the twist quantity and the use (or not) of some substances ables to do gut harder etc etc. If we go in the range of the violone 1st strings the breacking Index drop again and again because such strings are made very very high twist and without any chemical tretment able to do gut stiffer. This is why, in my wiew, the calculated Working Indexes (the product of the string scale X the supposed frequencies of the 1st strings) of the bowed instruments in the Praetorous tables drop step- by -step when the instrument became longer. So on Violins we are in the average of 210 HZ/mt while, on violones, we drop to arround 180 Hz/m only. Ciao Mimmo alexander ha scritto: To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo Nicki don't lose that number
On Feb 18, 2009, at 3:26 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: However without troubling yourself to trawl these, you will also see from my recent postings that there's absolutely nothing 'wrong' with small theorboes but just that the use of large theorbo tuning (ie double reentrant in A or G) on the smaller instruments does not tally with the historical record (see archives). So Martyn keeps saying. But if you were to trouble to trawl through the archives that he always refers to generally but never specifically, you'll see one post after another in which Martyn resolutely refused to admit what everyone knows: that there is no evidence tying any specific historical instrument of any specific size to any specific tuning or stringing. Mostly he did this by referring to the archives generally but never specifically. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: possible scam warning!!!!! be careful.... from Anton Birula
Of course it's a scam. Just scroll all the way down to the bottom of the very page he so thoughtfully sent you (so dumb, these scammers) from our own lute list website: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html#wanted, If someone seems to have difficulty writing the language of the country they claim to come from. These jerks all sound the same, and to a native or (equivalently familiar English speaker) their use of language is always a dead giveaway. I have never seen the word advert used in any of my legit dealings with builders, sellers, or buyers anywhere in the Anglophonic world. There must a school for online scammers where they learn to write this style, as it never varies. And yet, enough people are still being fooled to keep them in business- no category is immune; anything being bought or sold, any transaction on the internet attracts them like flies to horse poop. Dear List, Want to inform you about suspected scam. I received and email from Brad Baker, offering a baroque guitar which looked too good to be real, then I even called the guy but once I asked more detailes he pretended he does not hear me Then I serched in google and got this: http://www.650motorcycles.com/ForSale.html -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Breaking pitch
Hypothetical converstation between the music director/organist and the lute player: Dir: Dude, you are way flat! LP: No way! Dir: Via! LP: Don't talk Latin! Dir: Don't talk back LP: Why don't you tune those 10, pipes instead! Tune 'em up as high as they will go before they melt! Dir: Picci, please pack your guts and go. dt At 07:42 PM 2/17/2009, you wrote: No one seems to object, and the talk continues as if the very people that gave us all the amazing instruments we play, were totally ignorant as far as the oh, so stupid tune almost to the breaking point line goes. The simple truth of the matter is that any string made of the same material will break at the same pitch, no matter its' diameter, as long as the string length is the same. Some here still remember Eph Segerman?.. The stress on the string (represented by S) is the tension divided by the cross-sectional area, so S=T/A. The tensile strength of a material is defined as the stress at breaking (which we can represent by SB). Then the breaking frequency, represented by fB becomes: fB = (1/2L)sqrt(SB/ï²). This demonstrates that the breaking pitch is inversely proportional to the string stop. In the formula, (as can not be seen here, unfortunately) the invert relation is only between the pitch, length and the breaking point stress. Diameter plays no role. All this means a very simple truth - all the instruments of the same mensura tuned close to the breaking point of a given material, will have the same pitch, to the same degree as an organ pipe of the same length and diameter will produce the same pitch, be it in France or England. I hazard to say that, among professionals who used no rotten strings and preferred particular strings made by the same makers and even at particular time of the year, the pitch standard was no worse then nowadays. alexander On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:29:32 -0800 howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Feb 17, 2009, at 5:43 PM, chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: How many of us really follow this fundamental of lute stringing today? We tune our instruments to arbitrarily agreed upon pitches like 415, 392, 440 etc because its practical. If we were to do the truly historical thing, Jeff's G lute would be at 449, Joe's at 412, Tina's at 463 and Bill's at 398. That wouldn't have worked in 1610 either. They all had to use an agreed pitch if they were going to play together, unless they were into the whole John Cage thing. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: possible scam warning!!!!! be careful.... from Anton Birula
..And, as far as I know, the person named as a maker has never built instruments, but instead makes inset guitar/vihuela/mandolin roses for hire. Eugene - Original Message - From: Wayne Cripps w...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:18 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: possible scam warning! be careful from Anton Birula To: image...@yahoo.com (Anton Birula) Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Hello Anton - I got that message too, and I think that everyone selling a lute on my web page got a copy. If you look closely at the guitars pictured (from the Barber and Harris web page) you will see that they are all different! It is a scam. And I don't have a front door in Finland, either! Wayne Dear List, Want to inform you about suspected scam. I received and email from Brad Baker, offering a baroque guitar which looked too good to be real, then I even called the guy but once I asked more detailes he pretended he does not hear me Then I serched in google and got this: http://www.650motorcycles.com/ForSale.html Just to warn you. looks like a set up Best wishes Anton == Hi, I am Brad Baker.I came accross your wanted advert and email address on http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html#wanted I would like to inform you that i have 5 course baroque guitar For Sale @ $900(Give Away Price)including shipping to your front door in Finland via Courier express delivery.The price of this lutes are more than $2,500.You can't get it this price($900)anywhere.Hurry up now,this is give away price. I await your reply. Thanks, Brad Baker Tel:+44 702 403 8157(dial direct) --- On Tue, 2/17/09, LUTE DUO Anna Kowalska Anton Birula i...@luteduo.com wrote: From: LUTE DUO Anna Kowalska Anton Birula i...@luteduo.com Subject: Re: 5 course baroque guitar For Sale $900(Give Away Price) To: Brad Baker bradbake...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 10:42 PM I am afraid you are mistaken , my ddress is not on wanted list... but it is interesting in a way... who made the instrument? Anton Hi Anton, Thank you for your email.This is not a mistake.I just want to sell it at an auction price of $900 because my wife is very sick of cancer so she needs emergency operation.It is made by Elena dal Cortivo.The price of this lute is over $2,500 but i just want to give it away $900 because of my wife bad cancer problem.The $900 also include shipping and handling charges to your shipping address.Where are you located?I would also need your shipping address for the shipment.I will ship as soon as i confirm payment..I am located in London,England.I will ship via UPS or Fed Ex express delivery. I await your reply. Thanks, Brad Baker Tel:+44 702 403 8157(dial direct) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
