[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET
I haven't read Isacoff so cannot comment directly. From knowing Isacoff only via your brief citation, Leonard, there is a point to be made in the "straight-frets" argument that seems to have been missed. Setting unsegmented frets on any lute-like instrument into any non-equal temperament scheme is not like tuning the individual keys of a keyboard. By setting straight frets under fretted strings, one sets up a series of parallel temperament schemes based from the intervals of the open strings. As one moves to remote keys on a keyboard in any non-equal temperament scheme, there is a logical descent into "colorful" dissonance. Not so much so on a fretted instrument; the progression becomes in illogical jumble calling more notes on the fretboard that do not fit the intended temperament. This can be mitigated by "segmenting" frets via tastini, paired frets of differing thickness, the "enharmonic" guitars of the early-mid 19th c., etc., but I don't think there is evidence that the practice of segmenting frets was ever status quo. I also want to point out, once again, Bartolotti's first guitar book (Florence 1640, Minkoff 1984) in "mixed tablature", making a fair use of alfabeto chords engaging every string along with punteado passages. It opens with a series of passcaglias, one in each key and each ending on a cadential chord that seems to introduce the next. The implication is at least the possibility for through performance with (assumed) unsegmented frets. Without allowing time to reposition frets, that just wouldn't be practical without an effort to approximate equal temperament. All temperament is compromise. Again, different musics seem to allow for different temperament schemes in almost any era. There's nothing wrong with one temperament or the other (or, more correctly, something is wrong someplace with each). I would argue more should be willing to indulge, at least occasionally, in both non-equal and equal temperaments as the musical occasion seems to call for it as determined by the performer (unless explicitly prescribed by a composer...which certainly isn't often, thus these recurring debates). Enjoy, Eugene - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams Date: Friday, September 25, 2009 8:44 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET To: Lute List > I just read a book > called "Temperament" by Stuart Isacoff. (Liked > the Duffin book much better). The author insists that > tuning for fretted > instruments (using the lute as a prime example) was always and > had to have > been in ET because the frets go straight across the fingerboard > (!!!). How > does he think they tuned frets to ET without moving the frets > until things > sounded in tune: I think usually just or some meantone > intonation would > result. The author as much as states that ET was an ideal > that they kept > striving for, but never really says it was achieved on a level > other than > mathematical. In the end he shares wondrous appreciation > or the piano music > of Michael Harrison: he plays and composes for his > Harmonic Piano tuned in > just intonation by having 12 keys to the octave. > Duffin, on the other > hand, says that even after ET had been > "established", many piano tuners into the 20th c. used their own > littleprivate tweaks to make some intervals a little > sweeter: ET still not > recognized as a perfect solution. > > Regards, > Leonard Williams > > On 9/25/09 7:18 PM, "wikla" wrote: > > > On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:52:10 -0400, "Roman Turovsky" > > wrote: > > > >>> Even after JSB there never was any ET for many, many years! > For example > >>> Chopin never met ET. ET is an invention of 20th century. > > > >> ET was invented long before, and was advocated by Galilei, > Frescobaldi,>> Werckmeister, and many others. > > > > In the time of of Galilei, Frescobaldi, Werckmeister, and > "many others", > > there was the want and eager to find a way to equalise the > intervals. But > > there was no way, no tool. Even Chopin did not have that tool. > They wanted > > it, but had they known, what becomes, they wouldn't have... ;-) > > > > > In my opinion ET lends ANY music noble and unaffected delivery. > >>> > >>> Just listen to, let us say, Antonio Cabezon, or any other > keyboard guy > > of > >>> 16th c. in ET and "good temperament", and tell your > feelings.. (You said > >>> "ANY music") > > > >> Take some old recording of August Wenzinger for example, and > compare it > > to a > >> contemporary one. > > > > Take _any_ Cabezon piece and try it by "piano"... > > > And there is no necessity of liking dodecaphony if you like ET. > > > >>> I do agree. But is there really any other reason of liking > ET than the > >>> want > >>> to feel equally every possible interval, chord. key or any > sequence of > >>> notes, starting where ever? Do you really want to hear - let > us say - > >>> F-major sound like
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET
Harrison's music is sadly an insufferable newage pap of isufferable duration - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ieHZ5qmJZI&feature=related RT - Original Message - From: "Leonard Williams" To: "Lute List" Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 8:43 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET result. The author as much as states that ET was an ideal that they kept striving for, but never really says it was achieved on a level other than mathematical. In the end he shares wondrous appreciation or the piano music of Michael Harrison: he plays and composes for his Harmonic Piano tuned in just intonation by having 12 keys to the octave. Regards, Leonard Williams On 9/25/09 7:18 PM, "wikla" wrote: On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:52:10 -0400, "Roman Turovsky" wrote: Even after JSB there never was any ET for many, many years! For example Chopin never met ET. ET is an invention of 20th century. ET was invented long before, and was advocated by Galilei, Frescobaldi, Werckmeister, and many others. In the time of of Galilei, Frescobaldi, Werckmeister, and "many others", there was the want and eager to find a way to equalise the intervals. But there was no way, no tool. Even Chopin did not have that tool. They wanted it, but had they known, what becomes, they wouldn't have... ;-) In my opinion ET lends ANY music noble and unaffected delivery. Just listen to, let us say, Antonio Cabezon, or any other keyboard guy of 16th c. in ET and "good temperament", and tell your feelings.. (You said "ANY music") Take some old recording of August Wenzinger for example, and compare it to a contemporary one. Take _any_ Cabezon piece and try it by "piano"... And there is no necessity of liking dodecaphony if you like ET. I do agree. But is there really any other reason of liking ET than the want to feel equally every possible interval, chord. key or any sequence of notes, starting where ever? Do you really want to hear - let us say - F-major sound like E-major? Why not? Fingerboard topography gives enough color, so why mistune? ??? The F-major - to me - is very soft, happy and royal, and btw. also green to me; the E-major is much more sharp and angry, and btw. to me its colour is blue. And what is most intersting to me, is that in the so called "baroque" tuning (a'=415Hz) and in the modern tuning (a'=440Hz) those characteristics follow the name of the key? Or better said, players tune their instruments so... Arto, we now know that picth is a chymera, the Venetian one being 465, so there is no such thing as definitive "baroque pitch". Yep! There really is no definitive "baroque pitch" - as I thought everyone knew. I wanted to say that in all the pitches of a' (where I am taken into...) the colours are to me the same: F-major green etc. And of course - as always- it is possible to fool me... ;) Arto Is it so? And an entertaining poll: What is the colour of your F-major and E-major? Those two are clearest to me: to me there are no other alternatives to these two. D-major perhaps could be yellow? A-minor grey possible? C-major white? Well, that's enough... There are many organic compounds that give chords their colors, but I am too old for those RT I am certainly no fan of the former, and it can be done in any temperament anyway. Current forms of neomodernism are not pitch-dependent, and often avoid all definite pitch (as well as meter). As to actual temperaments- none are absolute, and even fewer are sufficiently stable to discuss. Another point - There is a belief that intonational espression is largely a product of ET, because the latter permit minute deviations therefrom which actually produce expression. Minute deviations from MT are plain old ugly, and the natural consequence of this is the so-called Rooley Principle, according to which any expression is entirely inappropriate in Early Music in general. RT - Original Message - From: "wikla" To: "Lute list" Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New lute music Dear Roman and other dears, On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:23:21 -0400, "Roman Turovsky" wrote: [...] I am for one is absolutely happy to use ET, and I use it exclusively To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New lute music
The Russian theorbo piece is quite nice (albeit too guitaristic for my taste. Sounds a bit like Piazzolla, but somewhat diluted). RT - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" To: "LuteNet list" Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New lute music On Sep 25, 2009, at 8:58 PM, Peter Martin wrote: Hey, you hordes of contemporary lute music fans. Have a look at The Lute Project at [1][1]http://www.abc.net.au/classic/lute/default.htm The Australian ABC broadcasting company commissioned four composers to write works for lute or theorbo, which were performed live by Tommie Andersson at last year's Aurora Festival. The site has videos of the concert plus interviews with the composers. Well worth a look. Very nicely played. An Australian friend turned me on to this player several months ago. Very accomplished indeed. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.abc.net.au/classic/lute/default.htm 2. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was]New lute music and ET
Eugene-- Your final point is a good one in the temperament wars. What, indeed, did the composer have in mind? How did he/she hear the music? What was it composed upon? And you're right--one seldom hears of a specified intonation. We work off assumptions based on what tunings might have been used, without knowing how accurately they were executed, or if the composer ever worked with other ones for comparison. I (rank amateur) personally like the sound of my lute in meantone (and would go so far as to suggest it to others), but I have no idea what anyone else hears in it, so in the bigger picture perhaps it doesn't matter. Regards, Leonard On 9/26/09 9:33 AM, "EUGENE BRAIG IV" wrote: > I would argue more should be willing to indulge, at least > occasionally, in both non-equal and equal temperaments as the musical occasion > seems to call for it as determined by the performer (unless explicitly > prescribed by a composer...which certainly isn't often, thus these recurring > debates). > > Enjoy, > Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET
To which I hasten to add that it is obvious and self-evident that GOOD music does not rely on temperament for its interest. RT - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" To: "Leonard Williams" ; "Lute List" Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 8:25 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET Harrison's music is sadly an insufferable newage pap of isufferable duration - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ieHZ5qmJZI&feature=related RT - Original Message - From: "Leonard Williams" To: "Lute List" Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 8:43 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET result. The author as much as states that ET was an ideal that they kept striving for, but never really says it was achieved on a level other than mathematical. In the end he shares wondrous appreciation or the piano music of Michael Harrison: he plays and composes for his Harmonic Piano tuned in just intonation by having 12 keys to the octave. Regards, Leonard Williams On 9/25/09 7:18 PM, "wikla" wrote: On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:52:10 -0400, "Roman Turovsky" wrote: Even after JSB there never was any ET for many, many years! For example Chopin never met ET. ET is an invention of 20th century. ET was invented long before, and was advocated by Galilei, Frescobaldi, Werckmeister, and many others. In the time of of Galilei, Frescobaldi, Werckmeister, and "many others", there was the want and eager to find a way to equalise the intervals. But there was no way, no tool. Even Chopin did not have that tool. They wanted it, but had they known, what becomes, they wouldn't have... ;-) In my opinion ET lends ANY music noble and unaffected delivery. Just listen to, let us say, Antonio Cabezon, or any other keyboard guy of 16th c. in ET and "good temperament", and tell your feelings.. (You said "ANY music") Take some old recording of August Wenzinger for example, and compare it to a contemporary one. Take _any_ Cabezon piece and try it by "piano"... And there is no necessity of liking dodecaphony if you like ET. I do agree. But is there really any other reason of liking ET than the want to feel equally every possible interval, chord. key or any sequence of notes, starting where ever? Do you really want to hear - let us say - F-major sound like E-major? Why not? Fingerboard topography gives enough color, so why mistune? ??? The F-major - to me - is very soft, happy and royal, and btw. also green to me; the E-major is much more sharp and angry, and btw. to me its colour is blue. And what is most intersting to me, is that in the so called "baroque" tuning (a'=415Hz) and in the modern tuning (a'=440Hz) those characteristics follow the name of the key? Or better said, players tune their instruments so... Arto, we now know that picth is a chymera, the Venetian one being 465, so there is no such thing as definitive "baroque pitch". Yep! There really is no definitive "baroque pitch" - as I thought everyone knew. I wanted to say that in all the pitches of a' (where I am taken into...) the colours are to me the same: F-major green etc. And of course - as always- it is possible to fool me... ;) Arto Is it so? And an entertaining poll: What is the colour of your F-major and E-major? Those two are clearest to me: to me there are no other alternatives to these two. D-major perhaps could be yellow? A-minor grey possible? C-major white? Well, that's enough... There are many organic compounds that give chords their colors, but I am too old for those RT I am certainly no fan of the former, and it can be done in any temperament anyway. Current forms of neomodernism are not pitch-dependent, and often avoid all definite pitch (as well as meter). As to actual temperaments- none are absolute, and even fewer are sufficiently stable to discuss. Another point - There is a belief that intonational espression is largely a product of ET, because the latter permit minute deviations therefrom which actually produce expression. Minute deviations from MT are plain old ugly, and the natural consequence of this is the so-called Rooley Principle, according to which any expression is entirely inappropriate in Early Music in general. RT - Original Message - From: "wikla" To: "Lute list" Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New lute music Dear Roman and other dears, On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:23:21 -0400, "Roman Turovsky" wrote: [...] I am for one is absolutely happy to use ET, and I use it exclusively To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was]New lute music and ET
> Eugene-- > Your final point is a good one in the temperament wars. What, > indeed, did the composer have in mind? How did he/she hear the music? Composer isnt the isse I think so much as the performers fear of how the audience will perceive the performance. Shalm players are always fussing with the reed. Bagpipe players with the masking tape that festoons the hole on the chanter. Fixed-fret instrument pluckers are always retuning, not always because new strings are settling, more often because the key of the new piece differs enough from the key of the old one that a new subtle shift in temperament helps it to sound better. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute music, ET, etc
I find it, as a side bar, interesting that the one thing we think of as being so perfect and without flaw is mathematics. If mathematics was so flawless why is one of the most basic of concepts, that of pie, in itself an imperfect number having no resolution this side of infinity? So it is no wonder (in my opinion) that in an effort to justify tonality, an imperfect relationship in practice, with yet another imperfect concept should yield an imperfect result? - Original Message - From: "William Brohinsky" To: "Lute List" Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music, ET, etc It has long been my opinion that temperament is only necessary and workable on fixed-pitch instruments of limited resources. Specifically, it is a great work-around for a specific problem. For the rest of us, it is not a temperament that will be important to us (except where a specific composer adhered to a specific temperament, rather than some other system.) On instruments, like and especially the lute, where the performer's fingers are on the strings and corrections can be made on-the-fly, nothing that fits the definition of temperament is really necessary. Instead, there are adjustments that need to be made for the specific requirements of the instrument. In the case of the lute, the requirements involve things like different string mass/diameter/tension, and nut-grooves vs. saddle triangle shape (i.e., the height of the string and distance from the saddle as determined by the triangle-shaped bit where the string part through the saddle meets the string part over the saddle.) Organs respond well to temperaments, within each rank, and require some kind of resolution between different ranks, which may have pitches perceived differently because of harmonic content. Harpsichords do well, since the density difference between lowest and highest notes is not greatly different and string lengths even of the highest notes and tensions lead to string-behavior throughout the compass. Pianos respond badly to any kind of one-octave temperament-fits-all because the densities and tensions and string lengths cause the upper strings to act more and more like bars than strings. This is affected even more by the length of the piano's harp (most stark between spinets and 12-foot concert grands.) And it is influenced more subtly, but no less significantly, by the piano's scale-design and implementation. So there's no surprise that the purely mathematical solution (immediately available to anyone who has risen in technical acumen to understand the 12th root of 2) to ET12 is not applicable in the real world. The surprise may be that it can be made to work at all, even if the "it" that is being made to work is but a shadow of the mathematical solution! I find the most satisfying surprise in the discussion of tunings and temperaments is how Dowland's tuning, which is described in his nephew's book of lessons, makes his music sound better than any other system I've tried, even under these poorly-trained (and aging) fingers. Holborne doesn't sound so good to me in Dowland's tuning. Unlike Mr. Turovsky, I don't believe in the aphorism that good music doesn't rely on a specific tuning system or temperament. I believe that good composers take into account their available materials without conscious effort and produce music which uses them all to best advantage. After all, much of late 19th C and early 20th C analysis of renaissance music concluded that it was drab, purposeless and aimless, which seems to me to have been predicated on their using the temperament-of-the-day instead of any kind of just intonation. Compare a cylinder recording of an orchestra like Toscannini's, which can be corrected to reproduce all of the sound that was there at the recording, and compare that to the same piece played by one of today's symphonies: the difference in the sound and attractiveness of the music is incredible. I'm saying, here, that temperament/tuning doesn't make bad music interesting, but it can make "GOOD" music more interesting, when properly applied. Which I think says what Roman wanted to say about Harrison. Anyway, from a performance->listener point of view, the ability of untrained folk to not hear bad intonation should be well-known by now. And the ability of critical people to be, or claim to be, highly sensitive to "out of tune" is also well-known. What isn't well-known is a universal rule for how accurate a tuning (or temperament) has to be in order to please everyone. So it is unlikely that math alone is going to be a solution-source for musicians. ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4459 (2009
[LUTE] Re: lute music, ET, etc
It has long been my opinion that temperament is only necessary and workable on fixed-pitch instruments of limited resources. Specifically, it is a great work-around for a specific problem. For the rest of us, it is not a temperament that will be important to us (except where a specific composer adhered to a specific temperament, rather than some other system.) On instruments, like and especially the lute, where the performer's fingers are on the strings and corrections can be made on-the-fly, nothing that fits the definition of temperament is really necessary. Instead, there are adjustments that need to be made for the specific requirements of the instrument. In the case of the lute, the requirements involve things like different string mass/diameter/tension, and nut-grooves vs. saddle triangle shape (i.e., the height of the string and distance from the saddle as determined by the triangle-shaped bit where the string part through the saddle meets the string part over the saddle.) Organs respond well to temperaments, within each rank, and require some kind of resolution between different ranks, which may have pitches perceived differently because of harmonic content. Harpsichords do well, since the density difference between lowest and highest notes is not greatly different and string lengths even of the highest notes and tensions lead to string-behavior throughout the compass. Pianos respond badly to any kind of one-octave temperament-fits-all because the densities and tensions and string lengths cause the upper strings to act more and more like bars than strings. This is affected even more by the length of the piano's harp (most stark between spinets and 12-foot concert grands.) And it is influenced more subtly, but no less significantly, by the piano's scale-design and implementation. So there's no surprise that the purely mathematical solution (immediately available to anyone who has risen in technical acumen to understand the 12th root of 2) to ET12 is not applicable in the real world. The surprise may be that it can be made to work at all, even if the "it" that is being made to work is but a shadow of the mathematical solution! I find the most satisfying surprise in the discussion of tunings and temperaments is how Dowland's tuning, which is described in his nephew's book of lessons, makes his music sound better than any other system I've tried, even under these poorly-trained (and aging) fingers. Holborne doesn't sound so good to me in Dowland's tuning. Unlike Mr. Turovsky, I don't believe in the aphorism that good music doesn't rely on a specific tuning system or temperament. I believe that good composers take into account their available materials without conscious effort and produce music which uses them all to best advantage. After all, much of late 19th C and early 20th C analysis of renaissance music concluded that it was drab, purposeless and aimless, which seems to me to have been predicated on their using the temperament-of-the-day instead of any kind of just intonation. Compare a cylinder recording of an orchestra like Toscannini's, which can be corrected to reproduce all of the sound that was there at the recording, and compare that to the same piece played by one of today's symphonies: the difference in the sound and attractiveness of the music is incredible. I'm saying, here, that temperament/tuning doesn't make bad music interesting, but it can make "GOOD" music more interesting, when properly applied. Which I think says what Roman wanted to say about Harrison. Anyway, from a performance->listener point of view, the ability of untrained folk to not hear bad intonation should be well-known by now. And the ability of critical people to be, or claim to be, highly sensitive to "out of tune" is also well-known. What isn't well-known is a universal rule for how accurate a tuning (or temperament) has to be in order to please everyone. So it is unlikely that math alone is going to be a solution-source for musicians. ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New lute music
> And > what about the surviving wind instruments from that period: were > they tuned to a particular temperament? Bob Marvins data on recorders and english flutes (GSJ) is the best attempt to record this I have seen, but he was hampered by several issues and did not publish any firm conclusinos. All of the instruments he inspected were altered from time, some sufficiently so as to render them unplayable. Some had distorted sound. Changes in the bore section have a strong effect on higher notes, and less effect on lower ones. Players and the maker/repairer will add wax or remove wood to tune notes in compensation for the instrument going out of round during its useful lifetime. Some players might add wax to achieve an intonation change; the wax is removable and at bet only an indication to the modern restorer of what might have been done. Marvin carried with him one of his own instruments as a sort of pitchpipe. His notes recorded nearest quartertone of how it compared. Not sure if that is close enough to judge the temperament. Fret positions on citterns, orpharions and similar fixed-fret instruments is less distorted by time and easier to measure, but always reflects a compromise because of the mixed nature of the notes at each fret (each note needed a different degree of tempering). It is widely acknowledge that these wire strung instruments were generally NOT played in ET. I think a better way of thought is to consider vocal music of the time, Gibbons Silver Swan for example, very fussy to sing acapella, needs a lot of attention to the intonation. Yes, no tuning forks, but some church bell was always nearby in earshot, often a choice of them. Theory of the comma of pythagoras was written about and clearly well known, so the issue was clearly understood. Monochords existed to demonstrate the issue of practical vs theoretical harmonic series. I think our early 20c pundit quoted earlier must have been unduly proud of his set of tuning forks, and perhaps not as well read of Gafurius, Tinctoris, Boethius, Praetorius et al as we are able to be from modern translations. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
Regarding temperament, I've always what people with absolute pitch think of our various efforts. How would someone with perfect pitch perceive an Ab in F minor in 3rd, 4th, 6th, 11th, or 32.9567 comma meantone? Would this person hear a kind of "real" Ab, an "out of tune" Ab or some other species of note altogether? How about a G# in E major? (There's also the issue of pitch level. Let's pretend that our examples are all at 440.) Is there anyone on the list with AP who would care to enlighten us muggles about what you hear? Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Crab Canon on a Mobius Strip
[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUHQ2ybTejU -- -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUHQ2ybTejU To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute music, ET, etc
Ray, --- On Sat, 9/26/09, William Brohinsky wrote: > > On instruments, like and especially the lute, where the > performer's > fingers are on the strings and corrections can be made > on-the-fly, > nothing that fits the definition of temperament is really > necessary. > Instead, there are adjustments that need to be made for the > specific > requirements of the instrument. In fact, modern players of orchestral instruments do this all the time. Modern bowed string players tune their open strings to perfect (i.e. not equal) 5ths. They do their darnedest to play any fingered fourth or fifth as a perfect fifth as well, but this doesn't mean that they play in Pythagorean system. Wind instruments can also raise or lower pitches depending on the context. Harpists, too, will adjust some strings if needed. Only the pianists are stuck with what they get from the tuners. But even most professional tuners have their own idiosyncratic version of ET. This doesn't invalidate the idea, though. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute music, ET, etc
From: In fact, modern players of orchestral instruments do this all the time. Modern >bowed string players tune their open strings to perfect (i.e. not equal) 5ths. They >do their darnedest to play any fingered fourth or fifth as a perfect fifth as well, >but this doesn't mean that they play in Pythagorean system. Wind instruments >can also raise or lower pitches depending on the context. Harpists, too, will >adjust some strings if needed. Only the pianists are stuck with what they get >from the tuners. But even most professional tuners have their own idiosyncratic >version of ET. This doesn't invalidate the idea, though. Exactly. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Crab Canon on a Mobius Strip
Very cool! ed At 12:32 PM 9/26/2009, Daniel Winheld wrote: > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUHQ2ybTejU > > >-- > >-- > >References > >1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUHQ2ybTejU > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: lute music, ET, etc
On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: > > Exactly. > RT > Exactly what? I'm afraid I'm not getting Chris's point, nor seeing it as a change from what I said. By the way: when have professional string players ever not tuned in perfect fifths? In the 60's, we were taught to tune in perfect fifths and play in ET12, avoiding the open strings at all costs. A decade later, when playing in tune came back into style (with incredible results: vide Chicago Symphony in the 70's and after) we still tuned in perfect fifths, and played open strings when they were appropriate for the current intonation and the tonal quality was appropriate. So I'm missing a few points here. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Anna Kowalska (Birula) Baroque lute Recital in The Hague 28.09.2009
ANNA KOWALSKA (Birula) baroque lute 28.09.2009 at 12.30 PM Studio I of the Royal Conservatory in The Hague Juliana van Stolberglaan 1 2595 CA The Hague The Netherlands Programm Jaques Gallot (1620-1698) Suite C-dur Tombeau du Marechal de Turenne L'Homme a bonne fortune (courante) La Moscovite (Sarabande) La Coquette & Les noces de Village (gavotte 1&2) Johann Georg Weichenberger (1676 - 1740) Suite d-moll Prelude Allemande Courante Sarabande Menuet Gigue Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750) Suite F-dur BWV 1006a Prelude Loure Gavotte en Rondeau Menuet I & II Gigue To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
I was born with AP, unfortunately, and lived with it without much thinking to the age of 20. At that time i felt compelled to "destroy" it. I still know what the individual notes are, but it is rather secondary to hearing the relation between the pitches. The experience (plus being surrounded by other Perfect Pitch equipped musicians) made it clear to me that PP is a function of memory and habit, more then anything else. It is possible to have it working in such a way that a piece once heard at a=440 will sound absolutely unacceptable at a=415, - the mind just refuses to accept it as the same piece of music. It will have the same effect as for a person mechanically counting the same stairs - suddenly to find there are a few missing. However, if intentionally or otherwise a different habit or memory is created (for example for a meantone tuning) - it becomes quite natural. I had a personal experience when, after year of playing only early music, never in ET, confronted with a grand piano that sounded horribly out of tune to me. And so i mentioned to the performer (oh, youth and silliness..), not taking into account that it was a very respected hall and a top notch tuner, and the actual problem was my perfect pitch that has forgotten the Equal Temperament. I think the problems that perfect pitch presents are overcome when the rigidity of the mind is overcome. I have to mention that it is a strong habit oriented mind quality. I thought that i trained my ear to be oriented to the pitch relations rather then actual digital pitch positions, until i started listening and playing persian scales - every "out of tune" note i literally had to force the finger, as it would refuse to go where needed. In particular to your examples - for an AP person actually the inner relations in the scale are less irritating then the whole scale moved over (especially something like a = 404, or 422 ). You could compare it to a digital tuner - if in the neighborhood - it is C, or D, if you focus a little more - perceive in more detail. alexander On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 05:56:20 -0700 (PDT) wrote: > Regarding temperament, I've always what people with absolute pitch think of > our various efforts. How would someone with perfect pitch perceive an Ab in > F minor in 3rd, 4th, 6th, 11th, or 32.9567 comma meantone? Would this person > hear a kind of "real" Ab, an "out of tune" Ab or some other species of note > altogether? How about a G# in E major? (There's also the issue of pitch > level. Let's pretend that our examples are all at 440.) > >Is there anyone on the list with AP who would care to enlighten us muggles > about what you hear? > > Chris > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
