[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: upload
Thanks Bernd and Daniel for sharing these treasures! -Mensaje original- De: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] En nombre de Daniel Shoskes Enviado el: lunes, 18 de octubre de 2010 10:39 Para: Bernd Haegemann CC: baroque Lutelist Asunto: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: upload OK, such a good turn deserves another. Here is a scan from the now out of print edition of the Manuscript de Saizenay including all the lute music and a bit of the theorbo. Will be up for a limited time. 1) http://cl.ly/5f2a13231a35c8b22f75 2) http://cl.ly/d6c4d80b1b990ee6b4e0 3) http://cl.ly/847cc200b6dbf95543dc 4) http://cl.ly/4bc9a077e528e72ed833 5) http://cl.ly/7bb67e8c457f8e0fb6db Table of Contents http://cl.ly/8b574706223c79168ded Theorbo http://cl.ly/2b0952166edfbf546065 On Oct 18, 2010, at 8:19 AM, Bernd Haegemann wrote: I uploaded for scientific and testudinological purposes a document we were talking about recently, PL-Wu 4142 (olim 2010). http://dl.free.fr/rEituM5II Look for the link in small letters Téléchargez ce fichier (=Download this file) Attention! One big .pdf of more than 400 MB! I wish you interesting studies and good playing! Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Richness of our repertoire!
Arto, So beautifully stated. I have been absorbed in the study of the Augsburg Manuscript for 38 years and it still fascinates me. Not unlike fractals, Mendelbrot sets, (god rest his soul) the more intensely you focus, the more complexity you find. Many players dismiss Falckenhagen's works as light and simplistic. If they were to delve deeper into the ethos and pathos of the era, they would find an incredible wealth of wit and charm along with some stunning technical advances. He truely was a genius of the Galant Lute. If you doubt his mastery of the instrument, just try to play through his Prelude sur tutti i toni muscali. It is an exhaustive display of the breadth of possibilities available on the lute. If there were not Falckenhagen, the Friedmann Bach of the lute, there would be no B.J. Hagen, who was the (C.P.) Emanuel Bach (the father of modern music) of the lute...the junior member of the Falckenhagen Gang, The Enfant Terrible of the Empfindsammer Laute. May the lute and its vast array of music continue to rip our hearts out and display our better angels to the world. - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:30 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Richness of our repertoire! Dear baroque lutenists, isn't is amazing how huge and day by day widening our repertoire is! We have the early heroes as the Gaultiers (at least 3 of them), we have Dufault and such, we have Mouton and such. Then we have the more or less Austrian, but French oriented noblemen - at least their King, Kaiser, was living in Wien - like Losy, Dix and those guys. And then the lonely Reusner. Then we have the Polish gang and folks from Prague. We have also some guys in Sweden. Etc., etc... And of course we then have also the late and vanishing baroque names like Weiss and even a little bit of Bach-the senior, and then nearing the rococo Falkenhagen and his gang. And even Haydn happened to make a couple of ditties to our instrument... What really is also interesting, is that we are getting more and more music: 1) After the Soviet rule in the eastern Europe the sources/museums little by little seem to open and publish their trasures. I suppose we'll have lots of more mss. and stuff, after they'll have time to search, what there really is in every town museum... The Hapsburger Empire huge... 2) There _is_ also new music to our instrument, and there will be more... Ethnic, modern, and something else(?). Especially waiting for the new ideas, well sounding ideas... All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3198 - Release Date: 10/15/10 02:34:00
[LUTE] New Zoom
I'm not recommending this box till I test it, but for a budget solution it sure has a lot. http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/q3hd/index.php Unlike other cheap combos, it has real HD video. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginner help required for thumb under technique
Hi Morgan, Glad you found it helpful! It's sometimes a good idea to kind of flatten the thumb, i.e. turn it downwards towards the lute. Classical guitarists tend to have a habit of sort of plucking up from the string, and this won't sound good. If what you're doing feels a bit unnatural that might be a good sign - shows that you're not just repeating your old guitar habits! Using the thumb/index is a bit like using a pick, but a really big squashy sort of pick that covers both strings of the course! As for the videos, I'm glad you liked them, but don't copy the technique I use on the baroque guitar and theorbo ones (that's supposed to be thumb-out!). If you're really stuck, you could make your own YouTube video, post it to the list and ask for comments! All the best, Sam On 19 October 2010 03:28, mc41mc [1]mc4...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Sam, Thank you so much for the detailed response. I need to re-read it and I am away from my lute, but already it is very helpful. I think I need to use more of the tip of my thumb (i.e. point it more toward the soundboard) and less of the side (pointing toward the head stock), and contact the second string of the course sooner. Orienting my thumb this way, more perpendicluar to the strings, feels a little unatural to me so I was hesitant to do it. Also, I think I was a little bit mislead by how much thumb-index scale passages resemble using a pick, and so assumed that the thumb could plant on a single string and then push through to the second string, similar to a pick. I enjoyed the youtube clip you gave. It was hard to see your hands in detail, but I could get a good sense of how you hold the lute. I got a pretty good look at your hands in some of your baroque guitar clips which were very nice. Thanks again, morgan __ From: Sam Chapman [2]manchap...@gmail.com To: m cornwall [3]mc4...@yahoo.com; [4]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:13:18 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique Dear Morgan, Here are a few tips about RH technique on the lute (most of which I picked up during my lessons with Hopkinson Smith...): Firstly, I think most players find it much harder to get a good tone from the thumb than from the fingers - it's something that even the best players have to continually work on, so don't be disheartened! If the sound is harsh it may simply be because the the skin on your thumb is rough. Just as modern guitarists are obsessive about the shape/smoothness of their nails, lutenists soon realise how much difference the state of the fingertips makes to the sound produced. You may consider avoiding doing lots of manual work (gardening, working with tools, chopping wood etc), wearing gloves in cold weather, evading doing the washing up, using hand creams, etc...during periods when you plan to play the lute a lot. If the strings are buzzing against each other or the frets, it might be worth checking that your lute is set up really well. If the string spacing is very narrow, or the tension is very low this might cause buzzing. Also, if the frets are old or not quite the right guage you might get similar problems. The best thing would be to get this checked out by an experienced player or maker, otherwise you might waste a lot of time! As for the stroke itself, you might consider the following: 1. At the start of the stroke, try to have contact with both strings of the course. You can practice this by planting the thumb on the course and feeling both strings under your thumb, without pushing them towards each other. 2. The most important thing about getting a good sound with the thumb is to allow the arm to move freely. At the beginning you might want to take your little finger off the soundboard, and make thumb strokes where you simply put the thumb on the course (as above) then allow the weight of the arm to bring the thumb through the strings from the elbow (keeping the wrist, hand, and thumb more or less as a unit). Do this with big exaggerated movements at the beginning, until the arm feels very free. You can also simply strum through all the courses like this. This can be very hard for guitarists, since the elbow is more or less locked in place most of the time on the classical guitar. 3. Once the arm is free and moveable you can put your little finger back on the soundboard and do the same kind of thing, obviously making less exaggerated movements. But generous arm movements are generally very good (you only need to make smaller movements when you start playing very fast passages). Your little finger and wrist need to be quite flexible, otherwise the arm can't move. 4. As for
[LUTE] Lute volume
Dear Howard, I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which counts with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice, because it will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There has to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to get it right. One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of chemicals. For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord, reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet, silvery tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in a group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice the difference if it wasn't there. There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo instruments to sit out. I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument which cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That is one reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years ago - why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing the same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would be no orchestra. However, there are circumstances (playing background music while people talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room, playing alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when plucked instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all, and it is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If that is the case, there is little point playing without amplification. It is sad if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of a performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, Huh? Wait, that's me! Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not hear me as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable part of the composite tonal aggregate? Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes. There's no reason to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850 or is now. Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other instruments to form a homogenized sound. Listen to a Schumann symphony for an extreme example in its time. BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at your concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the answer would have been, Never. I couldn't distinguish your sound from the other first violinists'. The same is true of the organist in most ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz big band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter). The issue in these cases is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the group sounds with it than without it. 35 years ago Rick Kemp, then the Steeleye Span bass player, told me how fascinated he was watching Neil Young's bass player staring at the drummer's foot so he'd play together with the bass drum, making one percussive bass instrument. I don't know whether it's good or bad, Kemp said. Frankly, I'm not a believer in this way of thinking for baroque music. There's no evidence that baroque composers thought of blending tone colors into new sonorities or Klangfarbenmelodie in the manner of Ravel or Schoenberg. But as you point out in your very next sentence, they very conventionally blended tone colors into familiar combinations of sonorities. Yes, bassoons double cellos and basses and oboes and violins play the same line in tuttis, but his rather goes to show how little regard baroque composers had for the actual colors of the instruments: I'd be inclined to disagree with this characterization of their regard, but since it pretty much proves my point, there's a limit to how hard I'll protest. In his operas, Handel typically expected one treble sound composed of oboe/violin, and a bass sound composed of cello/bassoon/harpsichord/theorbo/violone. He was obviously unconcerned with whether the bassoons were heard as bassoons: he just wanted a good, strong sound. If the part fits your register, play it for all I care. I'd be inclined to disagree with this characterization even more than I was inclined to agree with the characterization above (with which was I inclined to disagree, as noted above in the sentence that started I'd be inclined to disagree...) but since it pretty much proves etc. ... If Bach didn't have an oboist on a particular day for an
[LUTE] Re: Toccata
as David points out Kapsberger is clear about how the sign % (Arpeggio) should be played a chord 0 3 3 2 should be played Bass G then the G on the second string and the B on the first and finally the highest tone D on the third string (assuming a theorbo in A). I think variations are up to us, though ... but of course we should at least know we are playing something which is not intended by the composer. Thomas Am 19.10.2010 00:49, schrieb howard posner: On Oct 18, 2010, at 1:54 PM, Thomas Schall wrote: Hoppy plays it p-i-m-i-a-i-m-i (if I recall correctly) I hope not. I think you p-i-m-i-p-i-m-i. Kapsberger's instruction in the front of the book are pretty clear, if I recall: keep the same pattern, rather than arpeggiating bottom to top all the time. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Ah, amplification... I remember that David T and others made some recommendations a couple of years ago about contact mikes suitable for lutes. Any fresh updates? I fear my lute and saxophone combo won't ever get started without a little electronic help. Peter On 19 October 2010 09:44, Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Dear Howard, I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which counts with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice, because it will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There has to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to get it right. One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of chemicals. For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord, reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet, silvery tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in a group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice the difference if it wasn't there. There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo instruments to sit out. I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument which cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That is one reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years ago - why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing the same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would be no orchestra. However, there are circumstances (playing background music while people talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room, playing alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when plucked instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all, and it is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If that is the case, there is little point playing without amplification. It is sad if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of a performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, Huh? Wait, that's me! Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not hear me as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable part of the composite tonal aggregate? Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes. There's no reason to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850 or is now. Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other instruments to form a homogenized sound. Listen to a Schumann symphony for an extreme example in its time. BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at your concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the answer would have been, Never. I couldn't distinguish your sound from the other first violinists'. The same is true of the organist in most ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz big band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter). The issue in these cases is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the group sounds with it than without it. 35 years ago Rick Kemp, then the Steeleye Span bass player, told me how fascinated he was watching Neil Young's bass player staring at the drummer's foot so he'd play together with the bass drum, making one percussive bass instrument. I don't know whether it's good or bad, Kemp said. Frankly, I'm not a believer in this way of thinking for baroque music. There's no evidence that baroque composers thought of blending tone colors into new sonorities or Klangfarbenmelodie in the manner of Ravel or Schoenberg. But as you point out in your very next sentence, they very conventionally blended tone colors into familiar combinations of sonorities. Yes, bassoons double cellos and basses and oboes and violins play the same line in tuttis, but his rather goes to show how little regard baroque composers had
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Is it an HIP position to play with amplification ? Not sure it is coherent with what was said about gut strings... If you want to search for the lost sound... gut strings, no amps. Same conditions as yesteryears... No ? V ;-) -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Peter Martin Envoyé : mardi 19 octobre 2010 11:11 À : Lute list Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute volume Ah, amplification... I remember that David T and others made some recommendations a couple of years ago about contact mikes suitable for lutes. Any fresh updates? I fear my lute and saxophone combo won't ever get started without a little electronic help. Peter On 19 October 2010 09:44, Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Dear Howard, I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which counts with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice, because it will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There has to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to get it right. One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of chemicals. For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord, reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet, silvery tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in a group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice the difference if it wasn't there. There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo instruments to sit out. I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument which cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That is one reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years ago - why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing the same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would be no orchestra. However, there are circumstances (playing background music while people talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room, playing alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when plucked instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all, and it is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If that is the case, there is little point playing without amplification. It is sad if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of a performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, Huh? Wait, that's me! Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not hear me as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable part of the composite tonal aggregate? Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes. There's no reason to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850 or is now. Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other instruments to form a homogenized sound. Listen to a Schumann symphony for an extreme example in its time. BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at your concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the answer would have been, Never. I couldn't distinguish your sound from the other first violinists'. The same is true of the organist in most ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz big band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter). The issue in these cases is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the group sounds with it than without it. 35 years ago Rick Kemp, then the Steeleye Span bass player, told me how fascinated he was watching Neil Young's bass player staring at the drummer's foot so he'd play together with the bass drum, making one percussive bass instrument. I don't know whether it's good or bad, Kemp said. Frankly, I'm not a believer in this way of thinking for baroque music. There's no evidence that baroque composers thought of blending tone
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Nope, it's not HIP. Neither is playing with saxophone, actually ;-) But I want to play Muse. I want to play Telephone. And I want to do it on lute, not on electric guitar. And occasionally, even in more conventional settings, a little amplification would be nice, as all these anecdotes about inaudible lute recitalists make clear. So, any advice about contact mikes welcomed P 2010/10/19 Sauvage Valery [1]sauvag...@orange.fr Is it an HIP position to play with amplification ? Not sure it is coherent with what was said about gut strings... If you want to search for the lost sound... gut strings, no amps. Same conditions as yesteryears... No ? V ;-) -Message d'origine- De : [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Peter Martin Envoye : mardi 19 octobre 2010 11:11 A : Lute list Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute volume Ah, amplification... I remember that David T and others made some recommendations a couple of years ago about contact mikes suitable for lutes. Any fresh updates? I fear my lute and saxophone combo won't ever get started without a little electronic help. Peter -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089 mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614 [4]peter.l...@gmail.com -- References 1. mailto:sauvag...@orange.fr 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
- Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 9:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume .. But worrying about the theorbo player's desire to be heard isn't in their job description. We're professionals. We don't pay any attention to our feelings. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Zoom
Someone on the list had tested the previous non HD version, Ned
perhaps?, and found it useful as a teaching tool. On other music lists,
it was also praised, but its low image quality regretted, and many were
holding back for an HD version that was surely to arrive.
It is here, it seems, but the sound quality of mics and the preamps of
the zoom, was also not ideal for the lute, so it will still no doubt be
a note jotter, albeit, a much more useful one.
Regards
Anthony
On various lists of other musical
Message d'origine
De : David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
A : lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Objet : [LUTE] New Zoom
Date : 19/10/2010 10:21:37 CEST
I'm not recommending this box till I test it, but for a budget
solution it sure has a lot.
[1]http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/q3hd/index.php
Unlike other cheap combos, it has real HD video.
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/q3hd/index.php
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
When the bagpipe plays, you won't be able to hear the lute, but the lute is pleasant to look at. So, when the bagpipe plays, enjoy the lute. Peter Schickele - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 1:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume Dear Howard, I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which counts with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice, because it will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There has to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to get it right. One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of chemicals. For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord, reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet, silvery tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in a group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice the difference if it wasn't there. There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo instruments to sit out. I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument which cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That is one reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years ago - why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing the same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would be no orchestra. However, there are circumstances (playing background music while people talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room, playing alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when plucked instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all, and it is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If that is the case, there is little point playing without amplification. It is sad if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of a performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, Huh? Wait, that's me! Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not hear me as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable part of the composite tonal aggregate? Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes. There's no reason to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850 or is now. Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other instruments to form a homogenized sound. Listen to a Schumann symphony for an extreme example in its time. BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at your concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the answer would have been, Never. I couldn't distinguish your sound from the other first violinists'. The same is true of the organist in most ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz big band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter). The issue in these cases is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the group sounds with it than without it. 35 years ago Rick Kemp, then the Steeleye Span bass player, told me how fascinated he was watching Neil Young's bass player staring at the drummer's foot so he'd play together with the bass drum, making one percussive bass instrument. I don't know whether it's good or bad, Kemp said. Frankly, I'm not a believer in this way of thinking for baroque music. There's no evidence that baroque composers thought of blending tone colors into new sonorities or Klangfarbenmelodie in the manner of Ravel or Schoenberg. But as you point out in your very next sentence, they very conventionally blended tone colors into familiar combinations of sonorities. Yes, bassoons double cellos and basses and oboes and violins play the same line in tuttis, but his rather goes to show how little regard baroque composers had for the actual colors of the instruments: I'd be inclined to disagree with this characterization of their regard, but since it pretty much proves my point, there's a limit to how hard I'll protest. In his operas, Handel typically expected one treble sound composed of oboe/violin, and a bass sound composed of cello/bassoon/harpsichord/theorbo/violone. He was obviously unconcerned with whether the bassoons were heard as bassoons: he just wanted a good, strong sound. If the part fits your register, play it for all I care. I'd
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Perhaps lute types also function differently. I recently compared my
11c Warwick with an 11c muliti-ribbed yew backed Tieffenbruchar by the
same maker. I did not have enough time with it to be able to make any
final pronouncements, but projection and sound type were very
different.
The Tieffenbruchar had more interior resonances, but strangely almost a
beam projection.
It seemed quite loud but only from immediately in front, much less so
from the side, and almost inaudible from the rear (with the lute
pointing in the oposite direction). The warwick seemed to give a wider
simpler projection, with less interior rumblings.
Of course the Warwick was two years old while the Tieffenbruchar was
but a babe in arms, so that could also be an issue.
Sean when I heard Jacob Heringman, he was playing his Andie Rutherford
60 cm Gerle, which is reputed for its projection, I believe.
Best regards
Anthony
__
De : wolfgang wiehe wie-w...@gmx.de
A : Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com; agno3ph...@yahoo.com;
wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoye le : Lun 18 octobre 2010, 15h 08min 00s
Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
some years ago we had a playersday in hamburg in a church. one
performed piece was a duo between renaissance lute and soprano
recorder. near the performers, i was able to hear more or less the
recorder only. while walking away to the entrance of the church the
lute sound comes more and more out of the shade of the recorder sound
and was very present.
greetings
w.
p.s. I think, there is no linear relationship between different
instruments
Original-Nachricht
Datum: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 05:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
Von: Christopher Wilke [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com
An: [2]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi, Anthony Hind [3]agno3ph...@yahoo.com
CC: [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Anthony,
--- On Mon, 10/18/10, Anthony Hind [5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote:
I was told
by a lutenist and theorbist that in a
recent rehearsal with a rather
large Baroque group accompanied by a
relatively large number of
singers, the director told my friend to
hold back a little as he was
projecting too well. The theorbo was gut
strung.
I've been told this by several different directors, too. (Theorbo:
toy
class. Stringing: synthetic and gut). Never believe them! After
every
concert where I've been asked to hold back, I've asked people from
the audience
whether they could hear me. Comments ranged from in a few spots to
not
at all. Really, have you ever been to an ensemble concert where
you've
thought that lute is too loud?
The problem rises from the fact that, despite my early comment about
the
lute's sound traveling better than the classical guitar's, it still
doesn't
compare with strings, voices or even harpsichord. While the ensemble
may
have a dynamic range from 1-10, a plucker is going to have maybe 1-4
- with
4 being your most aggressive, string-ripping . In reality, it
means
that you've got to play fff (3.5 or so) in normal passages, and ff in
pianos. To the director and fellow musicians it can sound like
you're massively
overplaying. For the person in row two or 32, it will sound just
right.
I've never wanted to argue with a director. I've also been tempted
to lay
back in rehearsals, then simply disregard orders and amp it up in
performance, but I've never had the guts to do it. Unprofessional
behavior and all
that jazz.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
[6]www.christopherwilke.com
Anthony
Message d'origine
De : [7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
A : Thomas Schall [8]lauten...@lautenist.de
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Date : 18/10/2010 11:29:38 CEST
Copie `a : Gary Digman [9]magg...@sonic.net;
[10]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
I second Thomas' comment: I've seen
and heard Bream play lute, I've
seen
and with some trouble heard
something of Hoppy's playing, and I have
only _seen_ Rooley accompanying his
song ensemble, not heard the lute
(it was in 70's...)
Arto
On 18/10/10 11:26, Thomas Schall
wrote:
I can follow your comment about
Hoppy because he is playing at a
*very* low volume. I have heard
him both in a large church playing
as
well as in a small salon. The
first has been disappointing - the
second has been a nice
experience.
I've heard Julian Bream in a
larger room - volume has
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Dear All, I have been told on more than one occasion that a big benefit of accompanying a group of singers with theorbo or lute is that THEY can hear you, and it helps keep them in tune and in time. So even if the audience can hardly hear you, you provide a clear benefit to the quality of the ensemble's sound. And wasn't it Weiss who said a theorbo might sound harsh played with nails when one is sitting next to it, but sounds just fine to the audience? Cheers, Jim Oct 19, 2010 03:45:40 AM, lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: === Dear Howard, I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which counts with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice, because it will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There has to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to get it right. One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of chemicals. For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord, reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet, silvery tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in a group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice the difference if it wasn't there. There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo instruments to sit out. I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument which cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That is one reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years ago - why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing the same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would be no orchestra. However, there are circumstances (playing background music while people talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room, playing alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when plucked instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all, and it is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If that is the case, there is little point playing without amplification. It is sad if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of a performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, Huh? Wait, that's me! Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not hear me as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable part of the composite tonal aggregate? Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes. There's no reason to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850 or is now. Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other instruments to form a homogenized sound. Listen to a Schumann symphony for an extreme example in its time. BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at your concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the answer would have been, Never. I couldn't distinguish your sound from the other first violinists'. The same is true of the organist in most ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz big band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter). The issue in these cases is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the group sounds with it than without it. 35 years ago Rick Kemp, then the Steeleye Span bass player, told me how fascinated he was watching Neil Young's bass player staring at the drummer's foot so he'd play together with the bass drum, making one percussive bass instrument. I don't know whether it's good or bad, Kemp said. Frankly, I'm not a believer in this way of thinking for baroque music. There's no evidence that baroque composers thought of blending tone colors into new sonorities or Klangfarbenmelodie in the manner of Ravel or Schoenberg. But as you point out in your very next sentence, they very conventionally blended tone colors into familiar combinations of sonorities. Yes, bassoons double cellos and basses and oboes and violins play the same line in tuttis, but his rather goes to show how little regard baroque composers had for the actual colors of the instruments: I'd be inclined to disagree with this characterization of their regard, but since it pretty much proves my point, there's a limit to how hard I'll protest. In his operas, Handel typically expected one treble sound composed of oboe/violin, and a bass
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
I don't know if it was the same concert, but I remember him playing an all DeVise concert at a Lute Seminar Dominican College. Someone told me later he had injured a finger and played the whole concert with three fingers. I think nobody noticed any flaws. I think Paul Odette started off the week playing a lot of Dalza on a little lute. I remember you remarking to him how it was very folk-like in spirit. On Oct 18, 2010, at 10:10 PM, Peter Danner wrote: I heard Hoppy under two very different situations back in the '70s when I was an officer with the Lute Society of America. Both were at summer seminars, which in those days were held in California. The first was at a seminar at Idyllwild in the mountains southeast of Los Angeles, where USC has a summer arts program. Hoppy played in an auditorium there that had a glass roof. It was not a large hall, but unfortunately there was a summer rain storm happening at the same time. Hoppy's playing was totally drowned out by the pitter-pat of the rain on the roof. The other occasion worth mentioning was at Dominican College in San Rafael. I was fortunate enough to draw Hoppy Smith as a roommate. The night before his big concert, he said he hoped I didn't mind if he practiced a bit as I was heading to bed. Hoppy was focused on de Visee in those days, and I still remember falling off to sleep to the delicious sounds of his theorbo and Les Sylvains. Peter Danner On Oct 18, 2010, at 1:26 AM, Thomas Schall wrote: I can follow your comment about Hoppy because he is playing at a *very* low volume. I have heard him both in a large church playing as well as in a small salon. The first has been disappointing - the second has been a nice experience. I've heard Julian Bream in a larger room - volume has not been a problem at all . -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ [3]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 3. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Howard, --- On Tue, 10/19/10, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: Howard, Huh? Wait, that's me! Yes, it is a custom to say the name of the person I'm addressing. Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not hear me as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable part of the composite tonal aggregate? Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes. There's no reason to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850 or is now. Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other instruments to form a homogenized sound. Listen to a Schumann symphony for an extreme example in its time. Schumann, the great baroque composer. BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at your concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the answer would have been, Never. I couldn't distinguish your sound from the other first violinists'. Yes, but the function of the soloist and the person sharing his or her stand is different. Baroque composers often pitted small, soloistic groups against larger, massed groups (ripieno). Today we call it concerto grosso. Now, if a solo violinist in a section with reduced forces could not be heard, it would be a more serious matter. The same is true of the organist in most ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz big band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter). The issue in these cases is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the group sounds with it than without it. Not at all. Certain instruments have a subsidiary role. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't hear the part. And of course, roles may change throughout a composition. 35 years ago Rick Kemp, then the Steeleye Span bass player, told me how fascinated he was watching Neil Young's bass player staring at the drummer's foot so he'd play together with the bass drum, making one percussive bass instrument. I don't know whether it's good or bad, Kemp said. What is the name of this amazing new instrument? Does Praetorius list it? Would you list it under bass instruments or percussion instruments? And how would one describe the sound - drummy-bassy go boom-boom-thump-thump good? In his operas, Handel typically expected one treble sound composed of oboe/violin, and a bass sound composed of cello/bassoon/harpsichord/theorbo/violone. No, he wanted oboes and violins to play the same part. He wanted the rest to play the bass part. Again you're talking about tutti's which, while important, comprise a relatively small percentage of most baroque works. The majority of baroque works are made up mostly or entirely of sections of reduced forces where it is not unreasonable to expect to hear a plucker. If there is a baroque work that uses tutti texture throughout, I suppose you would be right, as this would not be the best piece to hear the theorbo as a distinct component. He was obviously unconcerned with whether the bassoons were heard as bassoons: he just wanted a good, strong sound. In tutti's perhaps (see above). I know of no instance in which Bach is known to have rewritten a part because someone wasn't available on a particular day. Do you? He re-wrote things all the time for different performing forces. Look at the many recycled movements in the Mass in B Minor, for example. In our own repertoire, Bach re-wrote Weiss's lute part for keyboard in BWV 1025 because he presumably knew that a lute (or lutenist of Weiss's level) wouldn't be available for the recital. How many times must this sort of thing have happened on the fly, with nothing being written down? Twelve. Thirteen, if you include that time in Frankfurt in 1752. Not a lot, really... I for one have certainly never showed up for a wedding gigs or cocktail-hour type one-offs and been handed piano music or a lead sheet or a cello part that I've had to adapt to guitar on the fly. Since it doesn't happen today, I'm sure it didn't happen then. And tell the guy, even though it really goes without saying, that although the theorbo player CAN play to be heard, he needs to be a part of the musical texture without actually being noticed as a discrete sound. This is a very theorbocentric view of the whole matter. Of course. I'm a theorbo player. Writing on a list dedicated to lute-related issues. It's more accurate to say that how the audience hears the theorbo, as such, is less important to the director (who needs to worry about the overall sound and overall balance) Exactly. I'm saying that the director's perspective is different from that of the audience, who will hear the theorbo sound as balanced even if it seems too loud from the director's position so physically close to the instrument. If the continuo sounds good and supports the singers, the director may not care at all
[LUTE] Re: beginner help required for thumb under technique
Dear Sam, I didn't watch the theorbo vids, but the baroque guitar is thumb-in, isn't it? Sure looks that way. It also looks like your thumb and index occupy some of the same space on occasion, or at least they would if they were playing on the same course. I suppose in that case you would pull your thumb back a bit, and have a bit more thumb-in/under and less thumb above (above because it's not really out/over or in/under, it's pretty much directly above). For playing chords (without rolling) it seems to help to pull the thumb back a little also. I'm still away from my lute but have been experimenting with a parlor guitar that's around here. Unnatural may be ok in this circumstance, but after decades of guitar playing and trying hard to play naturally, pulling my thumb way from my index finger and pointing it more toward the soundboard feels odd. When I watch lute players the plucking hand often looks very comfortable, except sometimes the thumb position looks tiring. I'm just trying to get off to a reasonably good start and not develop any bad habits, and get a nice tone. When I watch Nigel North, he seems to be under, over, and above depending on what he is playing. But other players, not so much. Thanks again for the advice, morgan __ From: Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com To: mc41mc mc4...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 5:43:07 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique Hi Morgan, Glad you found it helpful! It's sometimes a good idea to kind of flatten the thumb, i.e. turn it downwards towards the lute. Classical guitarists tend to have a habit of sort of plucking up from the string, and this won't sound good. If what you're doing feels a bit unnatural that might be a good sign - shows that you're not just repeating your old guitar habits! Using the thumb/index is a bit like using a pick, but a really big squashy sort of pick that covers both strings of the course! As for the videos, I'm glad you liked them, but don't copy the technique I use on the baroque guitar and theorbo ones (that's supposed to be thumb-out!). If you're really stuck, you could make your own YouTube video, post it to the list and ask for comments! All the best, Sam On 19 October 2010 03:28, mc41mc [1]mc4...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Sam, Thank you so much for the detailed response. I need to re-read it and I am away from my lute, but already it is very helpful. I think I need to use more of the tip of my thumb (i.e. point it more toward the soundboard) and less of the side (pointing toward the head stock), and contact the second string of the course sooner. Orienting my thumb this way, more perpendicluar to the strings, feels a little unatural to me so I was hesitant to do it. Also, I think I was a little bit mislead by how much thumb-index scale passages resemble using a pick, and so assumed that the thumb could plant on a single string and then push through to the second string, similar to a pick. I enjoyed the youtube clip you gave. It was hard to see your hands in detail, but I could get a good sense of how you hold the lute. I got a pretty good look at your hands in some of your baroque guitar clips which were very nice. Thanks again, morgan __ From: Sam Chapman [2]manchap...@gmail.com To: m cornwall [3]mc4...@yahoo.com; [4]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:13:18 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique Dear Morgan, Here are a few tips about RH technique on the lute (most of which I picked up during my lessons with Hopkinson Smith...): Firstly, I think most players find it much harder to get a good tone from the thumb than from the fingers - it's something that even the best players have to continually work on, so don't be disheartened! If the sound is harsh it may simply be because the the skin on your thumb is rough. Just as modern guitarists are obsessive about the shape/smoothness of their nails, lutenists soon realise how much difference the state of the fingertips makes to the sound produced. You may consider avoiding doing lots of manual work (gardening, working with tools, chopping wood etc), wearing gloves in cold weather, evading doing the washing up, using hand creams, etc...during periods when you plan to play the lute a lot. If the strings are buzzing against each other or the frets, it might be worth checking that your lute is set up really well. If the string spacing is very narrow, or the tension is very low this might cause buzzing. Also, if the frets are old or not quite the
[LUTE] In My Life
Dear Ones, Has anyone on the list ever transcribed the old Lennon / Beatles tune, In My Life for renaissance tuning? If so, is anyone willing to provide it? Thanks in advance, ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: In My Life
Ooo Me too! me too! Joseph Mayes On 10/19/10 12:54 PM, Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: Dear Ones, Has anyone on the list ever transcribed the old Lennon / Beatles tune, In My Life for renaissance tuning? If so, is anyone willing to provide it? Thanks in advance, ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: In My Life
Has anyone on the list ever transcribed the old Lennon / Beatles tune, In My Life for renaissance tuning? If so, is anyone willing to provide it? For solo lute or for lute and voice? Tom Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: In My Life
For me - solo lute (If you'd ever heard me sing, you wouldn't have to ask) Joseph Mayes On 10/19/10 1:34 PM, t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Has anyone on the list ever transcribed the old Lennon / Beatles tune, In My Life for renaissance tuning? If so, is anyone willing to provide it? For solo lute or for lute and voice? Tom Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: In My Life
Me three- but lute 'n voice also works for me because of the live-in soprano who always seems to be in my life. One of her favorite songs by these composers as well... For me - solo lute (If you'd ever heard me sing, you wouldn't have to ask) Joseph Mayes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] OT: video edit software
Someone on this list kindly suggested Sony Vegas. There is a 30-day trial period. I gave it a try with a little something for my guitar kids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEJXWEjH3s Choreography inspired by Hank Marvin c.s. ;-) David PS: Latest three LuteLessons were also put together with Sony Vegas. -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: In My Life
For solo lute. ed At 12:34 PM 10/19/2010, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Has anyone on the list ever transcribed the old Lennon / Beatles tune, In My Life for renaissance tuning? If so, is anyone willing to provide it? For solo lute or for lute and voice? Tom Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: OT: video edit software
On 19/10/2010 19:38, David van Ooijen wrote: Someone on this list kindly suggested Sony Vegas. There is a 30-day trial period. I gave it a try with a little something for my guitar kids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEJXWEjH3s Choreography inspired by Hank Marvin c.s. ;-) David PS: Latest three LuteLessons were also put together with Sony Vegas. David How do you record the sound for this - and how did you synch three parts together? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: video edit software
On 19 October 2010 21:36, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEJXWEjH3s How do you record the sound for this - and how did you synch three parts together? Two Røde NT55 microphones with cardio caps in xy-configuration, about 20/30 cm away from the 'sweet' spot on the sound board. Record into a Marantz PMD660 recorder. Mix with Magix Samplitude (50 euro 9SE-version which only runs on my old PC, bother, but the new version 11 whic will run on Windows7 is over 400 euros!) and a lot of patience. Trim the audio by first making a wave-file of the trimmed video take that will be the basic take for the whole clip. Use that wave-file to line up the other takes within Samplitude. Replace the audio of the video with the final mix made in Samplitude. The Shadows are not so off-topic on the lute list after all, as I remember reading Nigel North naming them as one of his inspirations in music. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: video edit software
Nicely done, David! Ned On Oct 19, 2010, at 2:38 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: Someone on this list kindly suggested Sony Vegas. There is a 30-day trial period. I gave it a try with a little something for my guitar kids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEJXWEjH3s Choreography inspired by Hank Marvin c.s. ;-) David PS: Latest three LuteLessons were also put together with Sony Vegas. -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: video edit software
On 19/10/2010 20:58, David van Ooijen wrote: On 19 October 2010 21:36, Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEJXWEjH3s How do you record the sound for this - and how did you synch three parts together? Two Røde NT55 microphones with cardio caps in xy-configuration, about 20/30 cm away from the 'sweet' spot on the sound board. Record into a Marantz PMD660 recorder. Thanks. It's a very good recorded sound. I've never even heard of cardio caps or xy-configuration. I just looked up the price of those microphones in Britain. Nearly £200. And £500 for the recorder. Quite a lot of money but no doubt worth it if you are a professional. Mix with Magix Samplitude (50 euro 9SE-version which only runs on my old PC, bother, but the new version 11 whic will run on Windows7 is over 400 euros!) and a lot of patience. Trim the audio by first making a wave-file of the trimmed video take that will be the basic take for the whole clip. Use that wave-file to line up the other takes within Samplitude. Maybe this just shows how much an amateur I am, but how do you get the other takes of the other two parts to match exactly with the 'basic take'? Did you have headphones on so you could hear the 'basic take' and play along with it? And/or a metronome in the headphones (not an old-fashioned one, of course, before some wag weighs in)? Thanks Stuart Replace the audio of the video with the final mix made in Samplitude. The Shadows are not so off-topic on the lute list after all, as I remember reading Nigel North naming them as one of his inspirations in music. ;-) David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: video edit software
cool :-) Am 19.10.2010 20:38, schrieb David van Ooijen: Someone on this list kindly suggested Sony Vegas. There is a 30-day trial period. I gave it a try with a little something for my guitar kids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEJXWEjH3s Choreography inspired by Hank Marvin c.s. ;-) David PS: Latest three LuteLessons were also put together with Sony Vegas. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Munich 1522
Dear lute-netters, I have no idea if this has been posted already: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00050861/image_1 I can't read it but It looks like guitar tablature :) Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Fabritio Dentice?
Dear lute-netters, in Woltz, Johann: NOVA MVSICES ORGANICAE TABVLATVRA§ there is a piece 5. Ah flebilem vitam Fabric.Dentici Does anybody know if this is our Fabricio Dentice? Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lute volume
Cher Valéry, No, it's not HIP to play with amplification, but if you want people to hear what you are playing, there are times when amplification has its uses. Better to be amplified than not heard at all. Amitiés, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Sauvage Valéry Sent: 19 October 2010 10:18 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume Is it an HIP position to play with amplification ? Not sure it is coherent with what was said about gut strings... If you want to search for the lost sound... gut strings, no amps. Same conditions as yesteryears... No ? V ;-) -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Peter Martin Envoyé : mardi 19 octobre 2010 11:11 À : Lute list Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute volume Ah, amplification... I remember that David T and others made some recommendations a couple of years ago about contact mikes suitable for lutes. Any fresh updates? I fear my lute and saxophone combo won't ever get started without a little electronic help. Peter On 19 October 2010 09:44, Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Dear Howard, I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which counts with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice, because it will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There has to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to get it right. One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of chemicals. For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord, reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet, silvery tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in a group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice the difference if it wasn't there. There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo instruments to sit out. I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument which cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That is one reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years ago - why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing the same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would be no orchestra. However, there are circumstances (playing background music while people talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room, playing alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when plucked instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all, and it is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If that is the case, there is little point playing without amplification. It is sad if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of a performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Howard, Huh? Wait, that's me! Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not hear me as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable part of the composite tonal aggregate? Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes. There's no reason to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850 or is now. Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other instruments to form a homogenized sound. Listen to a Schumann symphony for an extreme example in its time. BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at your concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the answer would have been, Never. I couldn't distinguish your sound from the other first violinists'. The same is true of the organist in most ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz big band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter). The issue in these cases is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the group sounds with it than without it. 35 years ago Rick Kemp, then the
[LUTE] Re: Lute volume
Hello Stewart All: Since I initiated this discussion, I thought I might step into it, figuratively, on this point. I have managed to remain silent while the thread somehow became a tangled mess over the issue of comparing the experience of performing on lute to performing on classical guitar (like clavichord is to Steinway grand), and establishing the worth of a lute concert based on the unformed opinions of guitar students (like asking your two-year-old which is better, Michelangelo or Peter Max). The thread predictably veered toward theorbo in baroque ensemble, a pertinent discussion. But my initial point was to do with sharing the relatively quiet experience of a lute (and voice) concert featuring subtle music from the 16th century or earlier. It's not about getting all New Age and mystical, it's about plugging into an aesthetic of quiet and nuance, and attempting to convey that to an audience. It's the reason I play old music. Having played all kinds of music professionally for far too long, I understand the 'nuts and bolts' attitude of just playing the gig. I save that approach for the other kinds of music. For that reason, I choose not to amplify the lute in a concert situation unless 1) I'm getting paid lots of money, or 2) I'm getting paid lots of money. I've got the pickup (Fishman CG soundboard transducer) and it works really well. Aesthetically, it's just not the same, and I'd rather stay home unless I'm getting paid lots of money. I agree with Valery that, if you just want to be heard, there is a ton of other music that is fun to play and doesn't take quite so much work to learn. If you just want to show off your chops, just play a louder instrument (see Dowland's remark about 'youngmen' who think their skill lies only in their finger's ends). If you really love old music, slow down and play polyphony. Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 00:59:23 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume Cher Valery, No, it's not HIP to play with amplification, but if you want people to hear what you are playing, there are times when amplification has its uses. Better to be amplified than not heard at all. Amities, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Sauvage Valery Sent: 19 October 2010 10:18 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume Is it an HIP position to play with amplification ? Not sure it is coherent with what was said about gut strings... If you want to search for the lost sound... gut strings, no amps. Same conditions as yesteryears... No ? V ;-) -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Peter Martin Envoye : mardi 19 octobre 2010 11:11 A : Lute list Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute volume Ah, amplification... I remember that David T and others made some recommendations a couple of years ago about contact mikes suitable for lutes. Any fresh updates? I fear my lute and saxophone combo won't ever get started without a little electronic help. Peter On 19 October 2010 09:44, Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Dear Howard, I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which counts with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice, because it will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There has to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to get it right. One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of chemicals. For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord, reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet, silvery tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in a group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice the difference if it wasn't there. There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo instruments to sit out. I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument which cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That is one reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years ago - why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing the same notes? The trouble
[LUTE] Ren Lute In My Life
Gift to the Lute List: Attached is a Fronimo 3 file and a PDF for solo lute of In My Life by John Lennon. I couldn't resist trying a quick transcription of it tonight. Hope you like it. I'm very new at Fronimo, but it was a good way to start using it. The ending measures can be used for intro. I'll do one for Voice with lute accompaniment soon (although this one can also be sung to ... ) Enjoy : ) Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 Dear Ones, Has anyone on the list ever transcribed the old Lennon / Beatles tune, In My Life for renaissance tuning? If so, is anyone willing to provide it? Thanks in advance, ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 --
[LUTE] Re: Ren Lute In My Life
On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:46 PM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Attached is a Fronimo 3 file and a PDF for solo lute of In My Life Alas, you can't send attachments to the list. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren Lute In My Life
C'est la vie! OK, I'll send it to all the individuals who expressed inrerest, and everybody please feel free to forward it to anybody. Tom On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:46 PM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Attached is a Fronimo 3 file and a PDF for solo lute of In My Life Alas, you can't send attachments to the list. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Toccata
Some of the posters are seem unaware that Kapsberger's Third Book was found a few years ago. Diego Cantalupi not only recorded it, but included a pdf facsimile of the book on the CD. Any theorbo player who doesn't have it already should start dropping hints with loved ones for the next gift-giving occasion: Kapsberger: Libro Terzo dIntavolatura di Chitarrone Diego Cantalupi, chitarrone with Claudio Nuzzo, chitarrone and guitar Cremona mvc 002 009 The CD was reviewed in the May 2005 LSA Quarterly by some hack whose name escapes me. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren Lute In My Life
Thanks, Tom! Chris. t...@heartistrymusic.com 10/19/2010 11:01 PM C'est la vie! OK, I'll send it to all the individuals who expressed inrerest, and everybody please feel free to forward it to anybody. Tom On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:46 PM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Attached is a Fronimo 3 file and a PDF for solo lute of In My Life Alas, you can't send attachments to the list. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [2]http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute 2. http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
