[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/music music, pictures Original-Nachricht Datum: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 22:08:46 +0100 Von: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com An: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk CC: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played departs quite a bit from the printed versions. I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a historically informed way..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
The presence of the soprano sax in this photo suggests that historically informed isn't their top priority... [1]http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22Im ageId%22%3A490584%7D However ... do the printed versions of this music tell the whole story? I was looking recently at the Corbetta 1639 book, kindly made available by Daniel Shoskes on the ning early guitar forum. [2]http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 Although all the pieces are for solo guitar, in the introduction he gives instructions 'per accordar quattro Chitarre di Concerto', or how to tune four different sized guitars together. Counting up from the largest, the guitars are a major third, a fourth and a fifth higher. What was the purpose of this instruction? A merry band of guitars all thrashing away together, in what must have been quite a departure from the printed versions. By the way, this book uses alfabeto for a delicious musical acrostic on page 60, spelling out the name of patron CONTE ODOARDO in chord symbols. P On 1 April 2011 09:14, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played departs quite a bit from the printed versions. I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a historically informed way..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [6]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089 mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614 [8]peter.l...@gmail.com -- References 1. http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22ImageId%22%3A490584%7D 2. http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Dear Alexander, What evidence do you have that early lutes (I presume you're referring to 16th century instruments) were strung at a lower tension than similar size later lutes? And what evidence do you have that the tension of a guitar around 1800 was 7 Newtons? Early evidence on the use of placing the little finger on the belly is unequivocal - if we wish to attempt to reproduce what the Old Ones themselves heard it is clearly necessary to adopt the same techniques. MH --- On Fri, 1/4/11, alexander voka...@verizon.net wrote: From: alexander voka...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast. To: Mayes, Joseph ma...@rowan.edu Cc: Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 3:29 Thinner strings of the earlier lute, lighter tension leave a little chance of producing timbrally rich and interesting sound, with any sort of body to it, without being able to push away from something. A tense wrist - arm muscles are in no way a solution, so grounding the little finger (either quite permanently or at the moment of plucking) allows for support while keeping the arm relaxed. Anyone who will attempt to produce any sort of volume close to the bridge with fingers moving along the string without anchoring against the lute plate or the bridge, will realize this immediately. The sound production is what counts first of all in use of this unnecessary technique. With the later lutes and strings growing in diameter and tension, or the mass (the length) somewhat different needs arise. However, even on a guitar of the classical period, with its' 7 newtons of tension on the top string, the performers being appreciated for the best sound, like Aguado and Giuliani were t! he ones lodging their pinkie to the bridge and the top, respectively. The speed and a proper accentuation of the running notes, are just additional part of it. They are not determining the need for support. al ray On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:36:36 -0400 Mayes, Joseph [1]ma...@rowan.edu wrote: I think that the little finger down thing has become a religion, these days. It is likely that there were as many styles of play as there were players in the old times. It's interesting that not all surviving instruments have the smudge. Were they cleaned up? Were they repaired with new soundboards? Were they played without that pinky on the face? Guitarists do not play with the pinky on the face and play fairly fast and acurately. It seems a somewhat unnecessary bit of the Orthodox Lute technique. Just my $.02 Joseph Mayes To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ma...@rowan.edu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] TRe: Foscarini Experience again
I think there was some Foscarini in the Alfabeto CD by Lislevand... (with fancy vocal improvisations by Ariana Savall...) Not his best recording... V. -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Peter Martin Envoyé : vendredi 1 avril 2011 10:50 À : Lutelist Objet : [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again The presence of the soprano sax in this photo suggests that historically informed isn't their top priority... [1]http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22Im ageId%22%3A490584%7D However ... do the printed versions of this music tell the whole story? I was looking recently at the Corbetta 1639 book, kindly made available by Daniel Shoskes on the ning early guitar forum. [2]http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 Although all the pieces are for solo guitar, in the introduction he gives instructions 'per accordar quattro Chitarre di Concerto', or how to tune four different sized guitars together. Counting up from the largest, the guitars are a major third, a fourth and a fifth higher. What was the purpose of this instruction? A merry band of guitars all thrashing away together, in what must have been quite a departure from the printed versions. By the way, this book uses alfabeto for a delicious musical acrostic on page 60, spelling out the name of patron CONTE ODOARDO in chord symbols. P On 1 April 2011 09:14, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played departs quite a bit from the printed versions. I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a historically informed way..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [6]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089 mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614 [8]peter.l...@gmail.com -- References 1. http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22ImageId%22 %3A490584%7D 2. http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
Well - yes. There are also instructions for tuning 3 guitars to play in consort together with a few piece in alfabeto in Foscarini's Libro secondo (which he has copied from Colonna). Costanza's book has pieces for 4 guitars. And Carbonchi has gone to the limits and gives instructions for tuning guitars to 12 different pitches. So I suppose there must have been occasions when players did sit round thrashing away together. What and how they played is another matter. The surviving pieces suggest they all played the same thing in different registers. But another reason for including these instructions and pieces in different keys is to illustrate how the music can be transposed - useful when accompanying a voice part. And there is no mention of triangles, tambourines or violones, never mind saxophones. Monica - Original Message - From: Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again The presence of the soprano sax in this photo suggests that historically informed isn't their top priority... [1]http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22Im ageId%22%3A490584%7D However ... do the printed versions of this music tell the whole story? I was looking recently at the Corbetta 1639 book, kindly made available by Daniel Shoskes on the ning early guitar forum. [2]http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 Although all the pieces are for solo guitar, in the introduction he gives instructions 'per accordar quattro Chitarre di Concerto', or how to tune four different sized guitars together. Counting up from the largest, the guitars are a major third, a fourth and a fifth higher. What was the purpose of this instruction? A merry band of guitars all thrashing away together, in what must have been quite a departure from the printed versions. By the way, this book uses alfabeto for a delicious musical acrostic on page 60, spelling out the name of patron CONTE ODOARDO in chord symbols. P On 1 April 2011 09:14, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played departs quite a bit from the printed versions. I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a historically informed way..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [6]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089 mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614 [8]peter.l...@gmail.com -- References 1.
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:05:16 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Alexander, What evidence do you have that early lutes (I presume you're referring to 16th century instruments) were strung at a lower tension than similar size later lutes? The top string was made from the same number of guts while the mensura increased. The instruments' pitch lowered not quite accordingly to the increase in length. This is what i was speaking about, not comparing the lutes of the same size. Not at all. The increased string length, even while the pitch drops correspondingly, increases the string mass, requiring more effort to move the string, more so closer to the bridge. The lower basses are of larger diameters, require more effort to be moved. And what evidence do you have that the tension of a guitar around 1800 was 7 Newtons? May i quote Mimmo Peruffo? His research has to be good for something...: The mystery is solved with the help of a number of documents of the time, in which we read that the first strings of the nineteenth-century guitar were identical to the first three strings of the contemporary violin It is known that the first string of the violin was made from three lamb guts, which produced a diameter of between 0.65 and 0.73 mm Going to Arto's String Calculator (Thank you, again, Arto), entering e, string legth 650 mm (on the low side, some of the guitars i was fortuned to measure were up to 69 cm), string diameter 0.65mm and pitch a=415 ( choosing between 440 and 415, with a desired 435 Hz). Tension = 7.061 Kg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: TRe: Foscarini Experience again
There was indeed - the arrangements were even more over the top than those of the Foscarini Experience. Monica - Original Message - From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:18 AM Subject: [LUTE] TRe: Foscarini Experience again I think there was some Foscarini in the Alfabeto CD by Lislevand... (with fancy vocal improvisations by Ariana Savall...) Not his best recording... V. -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Peter Martin Envoyé : vendredi 1 avril 2011 10:50 À : Lutelist Objet : [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again The presence of the soprano sax in this photo suggests that historically informed isn't their top priority... [1]http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22Im ageId%22%3A490584%7D However ... do the printed versions of this music tell the whole story? I was looking recently at the Corbetta 1639 book, kindly made available by Daniel Shoskes on the ning early guitar forum. [2]http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 Although all the pieces are for solo guitar, in the introduction he gives instructions 'per accordar quattro Chitarre di Concerto', or how to tune four different sized guitars together. Counting up from the largest, the guitars are a major third, a fourth and a fifth higher. What was the purpose of this instruction? A merry band of guitars all thrashing away together, in what must have been quite a departure from the printed versions. By the way, this book uses alfabeto for a delicious musical acrostic on page 60, spelling out the name of patron CONTE ODOARDO in chord symbols. P On 1 April 2011 09:14, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played departs quite a bit from the printed versions. I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a historically informed way..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [6]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089 mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614 [8]peter.l...@gmail.com -- References 1. http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22ImageId%22 %3A490584%7D 2. http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 7.
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Oh, yes, another thing, how did you come to a conclusion that i am arguing against the little finger support while i am arguing that only such a support allows to produce a decent sound on a lute?.. al ray On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:05:16 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Alexander, What evidence do you have that early lutes (I presume you're referring to 16th century instruments) were strung at a lower tension than similar size later lutes? And what evidence do you have that the tension of a guitar around 1800 was 7 Newtons? Early evidence on the use of placing the little finger on the belly is unequivocal - if we wish to attempt to reproduce what the Old Ones themselves heard it is clearly necessary to adopt the same techniques. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 01/04/2011 09:14, Monica Hall wrote: Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played departs quite a bit from the printed versions. I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a historically informed way..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica Music like this can, undoubtedly, be very attractive and probably goes down very well with audiences. What more could skilled musicians want than to play music very well and dazzle audiences? Perhaps this genre - of creating imaginative (and imaginary) arrangements of early music - should have a specific name. It's a form of contemporary music because it's musicians of our time creating it. But it's quite different from early music set by modern composers using modern rhythms and harmonies. But this quote from the Echo de Paris album: Foscarini's remarkably delicate Zarabande brings to an end what is such an enjoyable recital. International Record Review, May 2007 is problematic if the Zarabande, as they play it, bears little resemblance to what exists in Foscarini. On the other hand, to say that Pierrre Pitzl's re-imagining of a Foscarini piece is remarkably delicate etc etc, seems fine. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [3]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
Music like this can, undoubtedly, be very attractive and probably goes down very well with audiences. What more could skilled musicians want than to play music very well and dazzle audiences? Perhaps this genre - of creating imaginative (and imaginary) arrangements of early music - should have a specific name. It's a form of contemporary music because it's musicians of our time creating it. But it's quite different from early music set by modern composers using modern rhythms and harmonies. But this quote from the Echo de Paris album: Foscarini's remarkably delicate Zarabande brings to an end what is such an enjoyable recital. International Record Review, May 2007 is problematic if the Zarabande, as they play it, bears little resemblance to what exists in Foscarini. On the other hand, to say that Pierrre Pitzl's re-imagining of a Foscarini piece is remarkably delicate etc etc, seems fine. You have summed up my feelings admirably. There is nothing wrong with them taking the music and using it to create their own entirely original versions of it. What I think they should make clear is that this is what they are doing. They shouldn't give a completely false impression of what the music is really like and what the sources etc. indicate. Of course it's perhaps not the fault of the Foscarini Experience if people are naive enough to believe what they have said in the liner notes. I would have thought that the name of the group would have given that away straightaway. But in the end it just creates confusion. Monica Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [3]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Thank you for this. Well, without wanting to be pedantic I think we need to ask: what evidence do you have that 'The top string was made from the same number of guts while the mensura increased'? Moreover, even if the highest pitched string of, say, a large bass lute with string length of, say, 95cm had the same number of gut filaments as that of a small lute, say string length 55cm, which I very much doubt, the width of each gut filament/strand might well not be the same. I'm aware of Mimo Peruffo's excellent work on historical strings but I think even he would admit that there's still much to be done and to determine. The relationship between violin strings and strings for the guitar clearly depends on the size of violin strings; but there is still no concencus on early 19th century violin stringing. Indeed, as has been suggested, it's likely that earlier national preferences continued, so that string sizes varied significantly accross Europe. Earlier, the fragmentary record of Stradivari's strings tells us that a simple equivalence with violin strings was only approximate and I see no reason to think it became permanently fixed to the sizes you suggest were standard in the early 19th century. In any event, as explained above, the number of guts and resulting string diameter depends on the sizes to which the individual guts are split - we cannot assume the strands were all of a near uniform size; indeed I'd think this most unlikely. Incidentally, typical sizes for early 19th century guitars indicate a smaller string length than you think: in the range 60 - 64cm for the majority of extant instruments. An instrument with a string length of 69cm is most unusual - could you kindly let us have some further details? MH --- On Fri, 1/4/11, alexander voka...@verizon.net wrote: From: alexander voka...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast. To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JosephMayes ma...@rowan.edu, Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 10:58 On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:05:16 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Alexander, What evidence do you have that early lutes (I presume you're referring to 16th century instruments) were strung at a lower tension than similar size later lutes? The top string was made from the same number of guts while the mensura increased. The instruments' pitch lowered not quite accordingly to the increase in length. This is what i was speaking about, not comparing the lutes of the same size. Not at all. The increased string length, even while the pitch drops correspondingly, increases the string mass, requiring more effort to move the string, more so closer to the bridge. The lower basses are of larger diameters, require more effort to be moved. And what evidence do you have that the tension of a guitar around 1800 was 7 Newtons? May i quote Mimmo Peruffo? His research has to be good for something...: The mystery is solved with the help of a number of documents of the time, in which we read that the first strings of the nineteenth-century guitar were identical to the first three strings of the contemporary violin It is known that the first string of the violin was made from three lamb guts, which produced a diameter of between 0.65 and 0.73 mm Going to Arto's String Calculator (Thank you, again, Arto), entering e, string legth 650 mm (on the low side, some of the guitars i was fortuned to measure were up to 69 cm), string diameter 0.65mm and pitch a=415 ( choosing between 440 and 415, with a desired 435 Hz). Tension = 7.061 Kg To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
You are quite right - your email attached one of Jospeh Mayes to whom I should have directed that particular observation. I'm pleased you agree the little finger resting on the belly is a necessary part of historical lute technique. MH --- On Fri, 1/4/11, alexander voka...@verizon.net wrote: From: alexander voka...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast. To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JosephMayes ma...@rowan.edu, Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 11:04 Oh, yes, another thing, how did you come to a conclusion that i am arguing against the little finger support while i am arguing that only such a support allows to produce a decent sound on a lute?.. al ray On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:05:16 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Alexander, What evidence do you have that early lutes (I presume you're referring to 16th century instruments) were strung at a lower tension than similar size later lutes? And what evidence do you have that the tension of a guitar around 1800 was 7 Newtons? Early evidence on the use of placing the little finger on the belly is unequivocal - if we wish to attempt to reproduce what the Old Ones themselves heard it is clearly necessary to adopt the same techniques. MH To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Hi All, Dowland tells us that bigger lutes had bigger strings, which if we accept that different sized lutes were made in strict proportions (for which there is considerable evidence, lutes a 4th apart being 59 and 78 cm for instance), implies higher tension for bigger lutes. This tells us nothing, of course, about the relationship between lutes of the 16th century and 17th century, in terms of stringing tensions and preferences. Martin On 01/04/2011 11:54, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Well, without wanting to be pedantic I think we need to ask: what evidence do you have that 'The top string was made from the same number of guts while the mensura increased'? Moreover, even if the highest pitched string of, say, a large bass lute with string length of, say, 95cm had the same number of gut filaments as that of a small lute, say string length 55cm, which I very much doubt, the width of each gut filament/strand might well not be the same. I'm aware of Mimo Peruffo's excellent work on historical strings but I think even he would admit that there's still much to be done and to determine. The relationship between violin strings and strings for the guitar clearly depends on the size of violin strings; but there is still no concencus on early 19th century violin stringing. Indeed, as has been suggested, it's likely that earlier national preferences continued, so that string sizes varied significantly accross Europe. Earlier, the fragmentary record of Stradivari's strings tells us that a simple equivalence with violin strings was only approximate and I see no reason to think it became permanently fixed to the sizes you suggest were standard in the early 19th century. In any event, as explained above, the number of guts and resulting string diameter depends on the sizes to which the individual guts are split - we cannot assume the strands were all of a near uniform size; indeed I'd think this most unlikely. Incidentally, typical sizes for early 19th century guitars indicate a smaller string length than you think: in the range 60 - 64cm for the majority of extant instruments. An instrument with a string length of 69cm is most unusual - could you kindly let us have some further details? MH --- On Fri, 1/4/11, alexandervoka...@verizon.net wrote: From: alexandervoka...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast. To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JosephMayesma...@rowan.edu, Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 10:58 On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:05:16 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Alexander, What evidence do you have that early lutes (I presume you're referring to 16th century instruments) were strung at a lower tension than similar size later lutes? The top string was made from the same number of guts while the mensura increased. The instruments' pitch lowered not quite accordingly to the increase in length. This is what i was speaking about, not comparing the lutes of the same size. Not at all. The increased string length, even while the pitch drops correspondingly, increases the string mass, requiring more effort to move the string, more so closer to the bridge. The lower basses are of larger diameters, require more effort to be moved. And what evidence do you have that the tension of a guitar around 1800 was 7 Newtons? May i quote Mimmo Peruffo? His research has to be good for something...: The mystery is solved with the help of a number of documents of the time, in which we read that the first strings of the nineteenth-century guitar were identical to the first three strings of the contemporary violin It is known that the first string of the violin was made from three lamb guts, which produced a diameter of between 0.65 and 0.73 mm Going to Arto's String Calculator (Thank you, again, Arto), entering e, string legth 650 mm (on the low side, some of the guitars i was fortuned to measure were up to 69 cm), string diameter 0.65mm and pitch a=415 ( choosing between 440 and 415, with a desired 435 Hz). Tension = 7.061 Kg To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
But this quote from the Echo de Paris album: Foscarini's remarkably delicate Zarabande brings to an end what is such an enjoyable recital. International Record Review, May 2007 is problematic if the Zarabande, as they play it, bears little resemblance to what exists in Foscarini. I dug out the CD. The piece is on p.120 of Fosco's book. What Pitzl plays first on his own does resemble what appears in Fosco more or less but the variation which follows when the others join in doesn't although it may be inspired by the Redopre della Corrente which follows. In a way they are not taking credit for what they are contributing themselves. Strange world really. What the uninitiated don't perhaps understand is how sketchy the original sources are Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [3]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a historically informed way..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all, if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo playing. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title Bon voyage some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] G Gabrieli playing the lute
Hi All, Does anyone know whether the portrait by Caracci in the Berlin Gemaeldegalerie, supposedly of Giovanni Gabrieli, really is a picture of him? He's playing a 7c lute. Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Hi Joe, The continued discussion of finger position brought to mind some of the mechanical aspects of the lute as well as well. Robert Lundberg in his wonderful book on lute construction insists that the bowls of historical lutes were shaped down on the sides from in front of the bridge to the rose to allow more clearance for the strings. I know that this lowering of the sides could also have been due to repair or correction of the neck angle. Raising the neck angle without removing the neck causes the sides of the bowl to bow out and lower slightly. But in looking at pictures of players hand's and instruments of of all kinds, guitars, lutes, banjos, a perfectly made instrument may wind up in the hands of anyone. A bridge low enough to allow the pinky to rest on the soundboard will find itself torn to shreads by the pick of a strum player (see Willie Nelson). Perhaps Robert was actually seeing the truth here. Look at the finger rest that Chet Atkins used to get the rest point up to his very short pinky, yet keep the clearance for pick work. As the necks got longer and peg boxes got heavier, the neck angle naturally rises to reduce this weight. At 45 degrees, the weight is half that of 90 degrees. As the neck comes up, the right wrist rotates to a position more in parallel with the strings and the pinky has a natural tendancy to come off the sound board. This allows the builder to raise the bridge to get more sound and protect the soundboard from pick damage. Lutes in the 18th century tend to have higher bridges. Once the bridge is raised, it's over for the pinky without a finger rest or placing the pinky on the bridge. The smudge would have been left on some strings. (could the smudgeless soundboards have had a Chet Atkins finger rest?) At the end of a three hour set, hows your wrist? Louis Aull Phone: 770.978.1872 Fax: 866.496.4294 Cell:404.932.1614 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 11:54:25 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thank you for this. Well, without wanting to be pedantic I think we need to ask: what evidence do you have that 'The top string was made from the same number of guts while the mensura increased'? The smallest number of guts, two, arranged thin end to thick end for evenness. There was no use of splitting horn, and no polishing the top string, to keep it strong. Such a string comes out to about .43 mm, according to E. Segermann. I recall P. O'Dette describing his idea of reentrant tuning creation - lute longer - top string the same. Lutanist trying to tune it up to where it is supposed to be - damn! snap! Oh well, let's tune it an octave lower. Humorous, yes, but very true. Can not argue with the calculator and material physics. Sorry. The tension is directly proportional to the string length and the pitch. Moreover, even if the highest pitched string of, say, a large bass lute with string length of, say, 95cm had the same number of gut filaments as that of a small lute, say string length 55cm, which I very much doubt, the width of each gut filament/strand might well not be the same. TO avoid unpredictable variations in gut quality, musicians bought the strings from the same makers year after year. The splitting horn was invented only in the 18th century. This restricted the possible variations on the thinnest strings up to that point (and after...). I'm aware of Mimo Peruffo's excellent work on historical strings but I think even he would admit that there's still much to be done and to determine. The relationship between violin strings and strings for the guitar clearly depends on the size of violin strings; but there is still no concencus on early 19th century violin stringing. Indeed, as has been suggested, it's likely that earlier national preferences continued, so that string sizes varied significantly accross Europe. Earlier, the fragmentary record of Stradivari's strings tells us that a simple equivalence with violin strings was only approximate and I see no reason to think it became permanently fixed to the sizes you suggest were standard in the early 19th century. In any event, as explained above, the number of guts and resulting string diameter depends on the sizes to which the individual guts are split - we cannot assume the strands were all of a near uniform size; indeed I'd think this most unlikely. Incidentally, typical sizes for early 19th century guitars indicate a smaller string length than you think: in the range 60 - 64cm for the majority of extant instruments. An instrument with a string length of 69cm is most unusual - could you kindly let us have some further details? My apologies, my interest in 19th century guitars is long gone. The lack of time reduces the interest even farther. 685 mm is the longest guitar from circa 1810s i have measured, from collection of Leningrad Museum of musical instruments (in 1970s). 635 mm as far as i remember were more often the case, with some from 65 to 67 cm. Then, the ladies, or terz-guitars, quite a bit shorter and smaller. The younger guitar loving people should be the ones concerned with this though... MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
ago.
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
this album, Echo de Paris:
[4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and
Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through
Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent
at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts
forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful.
(i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these
arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the
first place?)
Stuart
In the liner notes it
mentions an
illustration which
features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute
together with a girl
with a triangle and a violone player which
apparently dates from
1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast
held for the
Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
there are no generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
ago.
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
this album, Echo de Paris:
[4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and
Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through
Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent
at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts
forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful.
(i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these
arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the
first place?)
Stuart
In the liner notes it
mentions an
illustration which
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Thank you Alexander, I fear I didn't explain the position clearly enough: what is the historical evidence for your assertions? What evidence do you have that 'musicians bought the strings from the same makers year after year.' Finally you seem to be confusing the issue of Tension with Stress. Strings will break at the Breaking stress which is a constant for a given material and is independent of the string's diameter for a given pitch and string length. Thus one may have a thick or a thin string on the same instrument and both will break at the same pitch. Thus, without begging the question (ie what tensions were used historically on various lutes), this in itself tells us nothing about the diameter of strings that may have been used. The way in which re-entrant tuning was required by the exigencies of pitch, string length and tensile strength was first described by Piccinini in 1623, later by Mace (1676) and others. MH --- On Fri, 1/4/11, alexander voka...@verizon.net wrote: From: alexander voka...@verizon.net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast. To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 14:39 On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 11:54:25 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thank you for this. Well, without wanting to be pedantic I think we need to ask: what evidence do you have that 'The top string was made from the same number of guts while the mensura increased'? The smallest number of guts, two, arranged thin end to thick end for evenness. There was no use of splitting horn, and no polishing the top string, to keep it strong. Such a string comes out to about .43 mm, according to E. Segermann. I recall P. O'Dette describing his idea of reentrant tuning creation - lute longer - top string the same. Lutanist trying to tune it up to where it is supposed to be - damn! snap! Oh well, let's tune it an octave lower. Humorous, yes, but very true. Can not argue with the calculator and material physics. Sorry. The tension is directly proportional to the string length and the pitch. Moreover, even if the highest pitched string of, say, a large bass lute with string length of, say, 95cm had the same number of gut filaments as that of a small lute, say string length 55cm, which I very much doubt, the width of each gut filament/strand might well not be the same. TO avoid unpredictable variations in gut quality, musicians bought the strings from the same makers year after year. The splitting horn was invented only in the 18th century. This restricted the possible variations on the thinnest strings up to that point (and after...). I'm aware of Mimo Peruffo's excellent work on historical strings but I think even he would admit that there's still much to be done and to determine. The relationship between violin strings and strings for the guitar clearly depends on the size of violin strings; but there is still no concencus on early 19th century violin stringing. Indeed, as has been suggested, it's likely that earlier national preferences continued, so that string sizes varied significantly accross Europe. Earlier, the fragmentary record of Stradivari's strings tells us that a simple equivalence with violin strings was only approximate and I see no reason to think it became permanently fixed to the sizes you suggest were standard in the early 19th century. In any event, as explained above, the number of guts and resulting string diameter depends on the sizes to which the individual guts are split - we cannot assume the strands were all of a near uniform size; indeed I'd think this most unlikely. Incidentally, typical sizes for early 19th century guitars indicate a smaller string length than you think: in the range 60 - 64cm for the majority of extant instruments. An instrument with a string length of 69cm is most unusual - could you kindly let us have some further details? My apologies, my interest in 19th century guitars is long gone. The lack of time reduces the interest even farther. 685 mm is the longest guitar from circa 1810s i have measured, from collection of Leningrad Museum of musical instruments (in 1970s). 635 mm as far as i remember were more often the case, with some from 65 to 67 cm. Then, the ladies, or terz-guitars, quite a bit shorter and smaller. The younger guitar loving people should be the ones concerned with this though... MH -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most
part) of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair
I did put in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord
continuo world...
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Christopher
Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02
If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize
that
there are no generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Christopher Wilke [2]chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say
'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin
in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as
you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of
historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem
is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from
what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be
a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world
and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a
sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than
with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible
without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to
current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to
generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke [5]chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh [6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a
very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I
don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is
accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After
all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any
number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2][10]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Lutelist [3][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
ago.
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
There seems to be no generally acceptable limits for keyboard continuo
practice included in the curriculum of the Bologna conservatory, as
evidenced by its graduates.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com; Roman Turovsky
r.turov...@verizon.net
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most part)
of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair I did put
in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord continuo
world...
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Christopher Wilke
chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02
If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
there are no generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
ago.
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
year with an opera singer)
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Hi Dan Good to hear from you - we seem to agree. (or is that just a symptom of a miss spent youth?) Joe On 3/31/11 10:07 PM, Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Joe- I'll take that 2¢ and put in my bank account. Need all I can get these days- NO SMUDGES ON MY LUTES! There are other branches in Lutedom besides Orthodox. There is Conservative- finger down, but flexible and moves up and down with the hand. There is Reform, sometimes off the soundboard, sometimes on. I am Reconstructionist/Atheist- that little finger is out, but mostly no solid contact; a bare touch like the feeler gauges on old cars for sensing the curb when parking - sometimes light contact for fast thumb-index runs for thumb under, and off for chordal play. I think it is always off when playing thumb out (Baroque archlute, usually also vihuela) but will have to watch myself next time to see for sure. Modern guitars have an elevated fingerboard, which puts the top enough further out of reach of the fingers to make little finger down a complete disaster (at least for me) and the extensive use of the 3rd finger means the pinky cannot ever be tied down- esp. if the distance from strings to soundboard is another 1/2 centimeter or so. Some of the pick guards on archtop guitars function as much as a platform for the pinky (plectrum players) as top protection- location here, as in real estate, is everything. And that's my 2¢ back- don't spend it in one place. I think that the little finger down thing has become a religion, these days. It is likely that there were as many styles of play as there were players in the old times. It's interesting that not all surviving instruments have the smudge. Were they cleaned up? Were they repaired with new soundboards? Were they played without that pinky on the face? Guitarists do not play with the pinky on the face and play fairly fast and acurately. It seems a somewhat unnecessary bit of the Orthodox Lute technique. Just my $.02 Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Herbert Ward [wa...@physics.utexas.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 12:43 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Stability of lute in playing fast. Below I use the word jerk several times. I suspect there may be a more elegant and accurate verb. If so, please excuse me. A few weeks ago I watched a bluegrass mandolin player. This man had won a (Texas?) state bluegrass mandolin championship, and, as one might suppose, he could quite fast. In watching him play, I immediately noticed the large degree to which his mandolin jerks around (for lack of a better phrase) while he's playing, with no tendency to jerk less during the fastest and most intricate passages, or indeed even during the quieter passages. This contrasts starkly with my modus operandi, which is to stabilize the lute as much as possible, in order to give myself a stationary target, especially for my right hand. The obvious explanation for this is to suppose that the mandolin player's hands, and in particular his right hand, move with the mandolin while he's playing, and thus negate the effect of the jerking. But, in playing the lute, my right hand is, more or less, glued to the lute in that my little finger rests on the soundboard and my forearm rests on the lute's edge close to the strap button. All this leaves me fairly confused. Do all elite lute players keep their little fingers and forearms solidly on the lute? Do they stress this in their teaching? Do they present this as part of the technique needed to play fast? Do any of them play with jerking lutes? Have any of this list's readers worked through this issue personally? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Ah...I knew there would be push-back. I'm not certain how little finger up became equated with tense wrist and arm muscles, or how those performers appreciated for their best sound became those with the little finger down, or how finger down became associated with volume. I think some stretching is going on, here. Joseph Mayes On 3/31/11 10:29 PM, alexander voka...@verizon.net wrote: Thinner strings of the earlier lute, lighter tension leave a little chance of producing timbrally rich and interesting sound, with any sort of body to it, without being able to push away from something. A tense wrist - arm muscles are in no way a solution, so grounding the little finger (either quite permanently or at the moment of plucking) allows for support while keeping the arm relaxed. Anyone who will attempt to produce any sort of volume close to the bridge with fingers moving along the string without anchoring against the lute plate or the bridge, will realize this immediately. The sound production is what counts first of all in use of this unnecessary technique. With the later lutes and strings growing in diameter and tension, or the mass (the length) somewhat different needs arise. However, even on a guitar of the classical period, with its' 7 newtons of tension on the top string, the performers being appreciated for the best sound, like Aguado and Giuliani were the ones lodging their pinkie to the bridge and the top, respectively. The speed and a proper accentuation of the running notes, are just additional part of it. They are not determining the need for support. al ray On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:36:36 -0400 Mayes, Joseph ma...@rowan.edu wrote: I think that the little finger down thing has become a religion, these days. It is likely that there were as many styles of play as there were players in the old times. It's interesting that not all surviving instruments have the smudge. Were they cleaned up? Were they repaired with new soundboards? Were they played without that pinky on the face? Guitarists do not play with the pinky on the face and play fairly fast and acurately. It seems a somewhat unnecessary bit of the Orthodox Lute technique. Just my $.02 Joseph Mayes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience
Dear Martyn, The problem is not that the level of Saint-Luc research is poor. It's rather high, and dates back to the 19th century. And it is simply not true that the principal writers are generalists. Philippe Vendrix, a lutenist, is one of France's leading musicologists. He is dean of the Centre d'Études Supériores de la Renaissance, He is Director of Research for the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, And he is editor-in-chief of Acta Musicologica (the journal of the International Musicological Society). His partner in Saint-Luc research is Manuel Couveur, Professor of Musicology at the Free University of Brussels. Between them, they really have all bases covered, French and Flemish, so to speak (to use an American baseball metaphor). They are positioned not only by expertise, but also geographically to examine archival records related to Saint-Luc. Brussels, may I remind you, was Jacques de Saint-Luc's musical home town. He was not French. He was trained at court with ITALIAN and SPANISH musicians, under the director of chamber music, Giuseppe Zamponi. Jacques performed villancicos at court when he was 13 (was he a Wunderkind?), and the court owned vihuelas. His teacher may have been court lutenist/theorbist Philippe Vermeulen, who as a youngster was sent by the court to Italy to perfect his abilities on theorbo with Piccinini. The cantabile of his style that Baron remarked about, was there from the Italian influences of his training. He didn't write 200 pieces all in Vienna. That he wrote so much music is accounted for by his attaining the age of at least 96. I think I resent more than anything your suggestion that he was too old and feebled to write music and travel, and using that as an excuse to attribute his works to his sons. And he was not in his 90s when he traveled to Berlin. He was 84. The sensation of his playing may have been due to his age. Was Verdi feeble-minded when he wrote Otello and Falstaff? What about Stravinsky? One would never have expected him to end his career writing serial music. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT SAINT-LUC'S SONS WERE MUSICIANS. And you can bet Couveur and Vendrix looked high and low to find them. The Saint-Lucs were NOT a dynastic family of musicians. Enough for now. The harm is done, and Couveur and Vendrix have already begun to set the record straight. Our responsibility is to realize what happened as a result of those fictional original New Grove and 1963 MGG articles. The recent New Grove Saint-Luc article has been completely re-written. I haven't seen the latest MGG. Arthur. == To: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience Well - as you both already well know - the current level of scholarship is so poor that the elder and younger Saint Jacques generally appear as one. But the real issue is that the real passion and merit of this music is lost by such a generalist approach. ythfo Martyn --- On Thu, 31/3/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience To: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 31 March, 2011, 21:01 Don't even mention Grove - as far as the baroque guitar is concerned it is full of errors.sigh, sigh. sigh Monica - Original Message - From: A. J. Ness [1]arthurjn...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience That's what makes me angry about the Jacques de Saint-Luc article in New Grove (first ed. and MGG 1963). Musica Rara has puibo. all the Suittes dessus and bassus, andattributres them one by one to three different composers named St.Luc.sigh - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:23 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience Yes - the music is fun and I really enjoyed hearing the solo pieces too - but liner notes are just nonsense. They have just made it all up as a kind of concept to hang the recording on. Really it's irresponsible - because what they have said is now being repeated as if it were true. What a world we live in. Monica - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Eugene C. Braig IV [7]brai...@osu.edu Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [8]brai...@osu.edu To: 'Lutelist' [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:12 PM
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
All of the players who learned to play their instrument with the little finger down will agree with you. There is copious evidence for this method being used in the 16th and 17th centuries. Early guitar tutors also suggest planting the little finger. What I am saying is that it is unnecessary, and has little or no beneficial effect on the sound produced. Also - it was obviously not universal for lutes, archlutes, guitars, what have you. Joseph Mayes On 4/1/11 6:59 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: You are quite right - your email attached one of Jospeh Mayes to whom I should have directed that particular observation. I'm pleased you agree the little finger resting on the belly is a necessary part of historical lute technique. MH --- On Fri, 1/4/11, alexander [2]voka...@verizon.net wrote: From: alexander [3]voka...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast. To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JosephMayes [5]ma...@rowan.edu, Herbert Ward [6]wa...@physics.utexas.edu, [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 11:04 Oh, yes, another thing, how did you come to a conclusion that i am arguing against the little finger support while i am arguing that only such a support allows to produce a decent sound on a lute?.. al ray On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:05:16 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson [9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk [10]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho o.co.uk wrote: Dear Alexander, What evidence do you have that early lutes (I presume you're referring to 16th century instruments) were strung at a lower tension than similar size later lutes? And what evidence do you have that the tension of a guitar around 1800 was 7 Newtons? Early evidence on the use of placing the little finger on the belly is unequivocal - if we wish to attempt to reproduce what the Old Ones themselves heard it is clearly necessary to adopt the same techniques. MH To get on or off this list see list information at [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/voka...@verizon.net 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/voka...@verizon.net 4. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 5. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/ma...@rowan.edu 6. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/wa...@physics.utexas.edu 7. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
Hello Louis You observations seem right to me. At the end of a three hour set my wrist if fine - my butt hurts. Joe On 4/1/11 9:37 AM, Louis Aull aul...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Joe, The continued discussion of finger position brought to mind some of the mechanical aspects of the lute as well as well. Robert Lundberg in his wonderful book on lute construction insists that the bowls of historical lutes were shaped down on the sides from in front of the bridge to the rose to allow more clearance for the strings. I know that this lowering of the sides could also have been due to repair or correction of the neck angle. Raising the neck angle without removing the neck causes the sides of the bowl to bow out and lower slightly. But in looking at pictures of players hand's and instruments of of all kinds, guitars, lutes, banjos, a perfectly made instrument may wind up in the hands of anyone. A bridge low enough to allow the pinky to rest on the soundboard will find itself torn to shreads by the pick of a strum player (see Willie Nelson). Perhaps Robert was actually seeing the truth here. Look at the finger rest that Chet Atkins used to get the rest point up to his very short pinky, yet keep the clearance for pick work. As the necks got longer and peg boxes got heavier, the neck angle naturally rises to reduce this weight. At 45 degrees, the weight is half that of 90 degrees. As the neck comes up, the right wrist rotates to a position more in parallel with the strings and the pinky has a natural tendancy to come off the sound board. This allows the builder to raise the bridge to get more sound and protect the soundboard from pick damage. Lutes in the 18th century tend to have higher bridges. Once the bridge is raised, it's over for the pinky without a finger rest or placing the pinky on the bridge. The smudge would have been left on some strings. (could the smudgeless soundboards have had a Chet Atkins finger rest?) At the end of a three hour set, hows your wrist? Louis Aull Phone: 770.978.1872 Fax: 866.496.4294 Cell:404.932.1614 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
-Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 7:16 AM To: Stuart Walsh Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again But this quote from the Echo de Paris album: Foscarini's remarkably delicate Zarabande brings to an end what is such an enjoyable recital. International Record Review, May 2007 is problematic if the Zarabande, as they play it, bears little resemblance to what exists in Foscarini. I dug out the CD. The piece is on p.120 of Fosco's book. What Pitzl plays first on his own does resemble what appears in Fosco more or less but the variation which follows when the others join in doesn't although it may be inspired by the Redopre della Corrente which follows. In a way they are not taking credit for what they are contributing themselves. Strange world really. What the uninitiated don't perhaps understand is how sketchy the original sources are Monica [Eugene C. Braig IV] I suppose not so strange and not so different than Kreisler, Giazotto, Vasilov, Segovia/Ponce, etc. ad nauseam foisting discoveries (of their own concoction) in ancient music on the world. I suppose the biggest difference is that this new breed is more performance-/interpretation-driven and often has a wee nugget of actual early composition somewhere at the core. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
This discussion of little finger on the top is most timely for me. I have recently been changing the angle at which I hold my right hand so as to get the thumb striking the strings of each course together. I've also moved the position of my hand to just behind the rose (rather than over the rose). Both of these adjustments have an audible effect on the sound; a positive effect, as I hear it. I have also been trying to keep my little finger resting on the top in the same spot as long as I am on a given course (it naturally has to move when the hand moves to another course). The advantage of this is not obvious to me, but I intend to keep listening to myself and seeing how my hand feels as I get more used to this technique. Up until now I have let the little finger brush the top but not anchored it in one spot. Whatever technique gives the best sound and feels most comfortable is ultimately what I will adopt. I have been curious as to why the anchored little finger is! so much advocated, from a strictly pragmatic point of view. As I have said here before, historical practices are naturally of interest. But I'm not convinced that the evidence is complete enough for us to fully understand them. And also, as I believe both luthiers and string makers today have admitted, our knowledge there is incomplete also. Gut strings today are not exactly the same as they were in the 16th century; synthetic strings are totally modern. And today's instruments are probably not exact replications either. So, might we not take what we think we know about historical techniques and adapt them to what best seems to suit our contemporary instruments and strings? Ned On Apr 1, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Mayes, Joseph wrote: All of the players who learned to play their instrument with the little finger down will agree with you. There is copious evidence for this method being used in the 16th and 17th centuries. Early guitar tutors also suggest planting the little finger. What I am saying is that it is unnecessary, and has little or no beneficial effect on the sound produced. Also - it was obviously not universal for lutes, archlutes, guitars, what have you. Joseph Mayes On 4/1/11 6:59 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: You are quite right - your email attached one of Jospeh Mayes to whom I should have directed that particular observation. I'm pleased you agree the little finger resting on the belly is a necessary part of historical lute technique. MH --- On Fri, 1/4/11, alexander [2]voka...@verizon.net wrote: From: alexander [3]voka...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast. To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JosephMayes [5]ma...@rowan.edu, Herbert Ward [6]wa...@physics.utexas.edu, [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 11:04 Oh, yes, another thing, how did you come to a conclusion that i am arguing against the little finger support while i am arguing that only such a support allows to produce a decent sound on a lute?.. al ray On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:05:16 +0100 (BST) Martyn Hodgson [9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk [10]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho o.co.uk wrote: Dear Alexander, What evidence do you have that early lutes (I presume you're referring to 16th century instruments) were strung at a lower tension than similar size later lutes? And what evidence do you have that the tension of a guitar around 1800 was 7 Newtons? Early evidence on the use of placing the little finger on the belly is unequivocal - if we wish to attempt to reproduce what the Old Ones themselves heard it is clearly necessary to adopt the same techniques. MH To get on or off this list see list information at [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/voka...@verizon.net 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/voka...@verizon.net 4. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 5. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/ma...@rowan.edu 6. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/wa...@physics.utexas.edu 7. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast.
-Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of alexander Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:40 AM To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stability of lute in playing fast. My apologies, my interest in 19th century guitars is long gone. The lack of time reduces the interest even farther. 685 mm is the longest guitar from circa 1810s i have measured, from collection of Leningrad Museum of musical instruments (in 1970s). 635 mm as far as i remember were more often the case, with some from 65 to 67 cm. Then, the ladies, or terz- guitars, quite a bit shorter and smaller. The younger guitar loving people should be the ones concerned with this though... [Eugene C. Braig IV] Well, I have no idea how my age compares to yours, Alexander, but this is a topic that appeals to me. Who were the makers of the instruments you measured in Leningrad? These lengths do seem to favor the long side and seem more typical of what I would expect of 5-course guitars into the 18th c. Is it possible you're remembering measurements associated with 5-course guitars? Is it possible they were early Russian guitars for 7 strings? There are abundant extant 19th-c. guitars from all across Europe. I have measured many (and own more than one) myself. As Martyn cites, ranges from 60 up to 64 c. seem quite common amongst European makers. Those longer, less so. Those shorter (possible terz, also less so. A fair number of Viennese builders, e.g., seemed to favor just over 60 cm on their standard instruments, at least early in the century; under the influence of Staufer/Stauffer protégés (like Scherzer) Viennese builders climbed to more like 64 cm. later in the century. Europe-wide, consider, e.g., the well documented pieces by Stauffer/Staufer, Lacote, Panormo, et al. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
I think there may be a little confusion amongst the few recordings
referenced here. Compared to Echo de Paris or Ensemble Kapsberger, The
Foscarini Experience is downright tame in their interpretive approach to
Foscarini. Where they've wandered is asserting a particular painting is
known to portray Foscarini accompanied by triangle and violone and then
riffing into a whimsical historical fantasy in liner-note narrative from
there.
Eugene
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Christopher Wilke
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
ago.
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
this album, Echo de Paris:
[4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
I think there may be a little confusion amongst the few recordings
referenced here. Compared to Echo de Paris or Ensemble Kapsberger, The
Foscarini Experience is downright tame in their interpretive approach to
Foscarini. Where they've wandered is asserting a particular painting is
known to portray Foscarini accompanied by triangle and violone and then
riffing into a whimsical historical fantasy in liner-note narrative from
there.
Yes...What really bothers me is not the way in which they play the music -
which in its way is enjoyable. It is that they have deliberately put into
circulation information about Foscarini and his music which is entirely
false. I think this should be a matter for concern.
On a broader front - it troubles me that so many people - not just
musicians - seem unable to make a clear distinction between fact and
fiction. Both intellectually and morally I see this as a problem!
Monica
Eugene
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Christopher Wilke
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as
you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort
of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to
current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
ago.
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
On a broader front - it troubles me that so many people - not just
musicians - seem unable to make a clear distinction between fact and
fiction. Both intellectually and morally I see this as a problem! --
Monica
As a victim of unfortunate news concerning a concert mate [Three
fingers??!! That's horrible and must be soo painful!] I must agree.
Especially today.
Sean
ps, he's ok but I had already rewritten the concert program in my
head ;^)
Eugene
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Christopher Wilke
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say
'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott
Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant
as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of
historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the
problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from
what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to
be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world
and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a
sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than
with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible
without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to
current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to
generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a
very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I
don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is
accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After
all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any
number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
ago.
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
this album, Echo de Paris:
[4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and
Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through
Foscarini you struggle to find anything
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Well, not only in keyboard continuo there shouldn't be no limits; also
plucked continuo is free - the only limit is that when it is good
(subjective!) it serves the the soloist/ensemble/orchestra/... And also
serving is subjective. Of course usually mastering the style and
conventions of the period help achieving the goal... But being only
pedant doesn't guarantee art...
All the best,
Arto
On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:27:03 -0400, Roman Turovsky
r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
There seems to be no generally acceptable limits for keyboard continuo
practice included in the curriculum of the Bologna conservatory, as
evidenced by its graduates.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com; Roman Turovsky
r.turov...@verizon.net
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most
part)
of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair I did
put
in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord continuo
world...
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Christopher Wilke
chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02
If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
there are no generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
-
