[BAROQUE-LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
An interesting post: [1]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-myth-is-busted-part-i/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses from the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. Very nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning! Tom An interesting post: [1]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-th is-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- myth-is-busted-part-i/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it for a planter. In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext, which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and rearranged his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the organ, clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities. Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk. Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on the organ. The consistent model is that Bach composed for instruments in his house--the viol, the lute, the harpsichord, the lautenwerk, the violin, viola, and so on, as well as many other instruments. And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :) Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats. __ From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Luca Manassero l...@manassero.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 7:01:08 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I won't believe it until it appears on Mythbusters :) Bill From: Luca Manassero [1]l...@manassero.net To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 14:37 Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted An interesting post: [1][1][3]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites- thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1. [2][4]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 2. [7]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ 3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:l...@manassero.net 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi 4. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 7. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-myth-is-busted-part-i/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the sources of Bach's original lute music in the liner notes he drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. He also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard Paul O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something like Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute. Etc. I suspect that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to some reference of the source material either really, really wants to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived ancestor of his/her own instrument. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses from the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. Very nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning! Tom An interesting post: [1]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-th is-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- myth-is-busted-part-i/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
I think the point, David, is that the music we have inherited as Bach's works for lute doesn't have any linear provenance to actually connect them to an intention by Bach for them to be performed on lute. That said, transcriptions of any Bach music are as legitimately lute as the alleged lute works. Sure, he may have dabbled on a lute in his own collection, but who knows with what music? While I own a Viennese ocarina, jaw-harp, 6-hole American cedar flute, chromatic harmonica, etc. there's little likelihood of me composing music for any of them within my lifetime. (Granted, I am not anything like a properly trained composer.) As Titmuss points out, there is some speculation Bach also rented instruments. If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect an intimate compositional familiarity with the pieces in his rental stable. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Tayler Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:17 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it for a planter. In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext, which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and rearranged his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the organ, clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities. Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk. Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on the organ. The consistent model is that Bach composed for instruments in his house--the viol, the lute, the harpsichord, the lautenwerk, the violin, viola, and so on, as well as many other instruments. And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :) Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats. __ From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Luca Manassero l...@manassero.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 7:01:08 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I won't believe it until it appears on Mythbusters :) Bill From: Luca Manassero [1]l...@manassero.net To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 14:37 Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted An interesting post: [1][1][3]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites- thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1. [2][4]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 2. [7]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ 3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:l...@manassero.net 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi 4. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m 7. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-myth-is-busted-part-i/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
I haven't come across that formula David. Can you please point me to a source for the recipe? It could save a lot of time and money! Thanks, Bill From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 18:57 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Simple geometry. It's all been worked out, unlike forty years ago when we worked it out. No different from buying clothes. dt At 11:55 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: A luthier would need a formula relating hand dimensions (hand span, fistmele and so on) in order to build a lute that's exactly the right size for a particular player. Without such a formula, all the luthier gets is a headache when asked to build a lute that's the right size for a particular player. If it's down to the player to decide what spacings they need, how will they determine that without having a selection of instruments to try first? Not as easy as in the time of Laux Maler as David Van Edwards so amusingly pointed out! I don't see how making exact copies of original instruments actually helps here - There are variations in these too - Compare, for example the well-known 7c Hieber with the 7c Venere of about the same size (58/59cm?). The Hieber has a wide string spacing at the nut end, and the Venere is almost impossibly narrow here for most players I know. Otherwise, there's not a lot of difference in dimensions - bridge spacing, scale, body dimensions . . . I sympathise with your point of view, but can't see how these objectives can be achieved in practice without buying, trying and then rejecting a goodish number of instruments. Bill From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 9 April 2012, 22:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are also the wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will change anytime soon: once someone buys the wrong size instrument, they either keep it or trade it in for another one that is the wrong size. So I would rate size and setup as the number one issue, based on my experience that the player will have to go through a very long retraining period after learning on a lute that is the wrong size. Why pedal backwards? Of the setup issues, the number one issue is the span and spacing. Without the right span and spacing, which reconciles two numbers, the size of the hand (and fingers) and the rules which govern the span and spacing of strings. Without these two numbers in balance, it is impossible, or very difficult to make a good sound. When these numbers are in balance, it is easy to make a good sound; in fact, it is difficult to make a bad sound. No one would wear size 4 or size 11 shoes if they are a size 9, and yet, that is precisely what happens. Sadly, people are rarely fitted to the lute, even though the lute is from the age of custom made. Equally sadly, most people do not understand the basic physics of twang, thwack and pluck, which involves some simple experiments with a special bridge and nut that are universally adjustable. Generally speaking, and I mean VERY generally, the plucking-point spacing is wrong, that is, the place where you actually pluck the string, and it is almost always too narrow. However, it is the ratio of the bridge to nut, factoring the string length, and figured at YOUR plucking point that gives numbers for the thou shalt not buzz dimensions. Empirically, anyone can see that the spacing is different at any point on the string. A player with years of experience can give you some advice, after watching you play, about the setup. You may have to compromise somewhat on the overall span, or use a sliding scale so that the treble has more room. After these two biggies, there is a seemingly endless list of features, all of which are important. And here you will need some experience to guide you. However, I would add that most lutes made nowadays are not copies of originals. They are rescaled, resized, rebarred, rebridged, reglued, revarnished. Available is everything: everything-except-original. Now, you may want that. Personally, I think everyone needs a reality check instrument that is a copy of an original. Otherwise, it is just a guitar, basically, with wonky pegs. Since you asked about sound in your list, it is no fun playing a monochromatic instrument of any kind, but
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Rainer, Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Any way to download the whole thing? Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Wed, 4/25/12, Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de wrote: From: Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de Subject: [LUTE] 4060 To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, April 25, 2012, 3:07 PM Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See [1]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4060
right mouse click: save picture as :) I can't see any other way to download this. Intersting stamps are on the fifth page. One of them says Central state archive of Ukraine And the other one says Order of Lenin conservatoire of Kiev 2012/4/25 Christopher Wilke [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com Rainer, Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Any way to download the whole thing? Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [2]www.christopherwilke.com --- On Wed, 4/25/12, Rainer [3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de wrote: From: Rainer [4]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de Subject: [LUTE] 4060 To: Lute net [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, April 25, 2012, 3:07 PM Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See [1][6]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at [2][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 2. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.christopherwilke.com/ 3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 4. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Dear lute netters, That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4060
I think it works like this: Click on Werkzeugkasten then on Zusatzfunktionen and then on PDF download. There are three ways of downloading. Paolo Busato lute-maker www.busatolutes.com e-mail: paolo.busato-at-busatolutes.com _ Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati di eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003). The content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) _ - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4060 Rainer, Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Any way to download the whole thing? Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Wed, 4/25/12, Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de wrote: From: Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de Subject: [LUTE] 4060 To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, April 25, 2012, 3:07 PM Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See [1]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Hi all, There is a menu item with the name Werkzeugkasten. Click it and select the pdf icon. Then download the top item in the list of three. This contains everything in one file. Happy luting, Lex Op 25 apr 2012, om 21:14 heeft Christopher Wilke het volgende geschreven: Rainer, Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Any way to download the whole thing? Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Wed, 4/25/12, Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de wrote: From: Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de Subject: [LUTE] 4060 To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, April 25, 2012, 3:07 PM Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See [1]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] 26 years old lute top and Mimmo's NNG's....
Dear lutenists, I just re-strung my old Stephen Barber 10-course Berr by Aquila's NNG's and some D's. There has been some talk here about the lute soundboards getting tired. This Berr has had no surgery, neither any need of repair. Perhaps 26 years is not so much, but long time anyhow... ;-) And the lute sounds quite good still - at least to my ears. If interested, you can hear one unedited and un-echoed example of one ballad tune in ms. Board, Home againe, Market is done in: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwMUGil7yRwfeature=youtu.be and also [2]http://vimeo.com/41031964 best, Arto -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwMUGil7yRwfeature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/41031964 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re: Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would be quite fabulous, A quite fabulous scordatura has come to my attention in the English Lute Society's March magazine. Melbourne MS LHD 243 is for 11 course Baroque lute in D major tuning. So I cranked my 1st 4th courses up to f# and had a whack at the E major violin partita transposed down a tone to D major. Sounds fantastic; better to my ears at least than F major, the more usual key for this partita on lute. And it almost fingers itself, at least as far as I went with it. And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :) Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats. I can put in 2000 mistakes today with no edits. Subtract virtuoso, and once is already one time too many. I'm going back to Weiss after lunch. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
The article was aimed at the guitar crowd, still clinging to illusions of lute. It's tough letting go. But he put it all together very nicely, I thought. On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote: While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the sources of Bach's original lute music in the liner notes he drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. He also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard Paul O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something like Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute. Etc. I suspect that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to some reference of the source material either really, really wants to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived ancestor of his/her own instrument. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] Bachs Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses from the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. Very nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning! Tom -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4060
This looks like beautifully written manuscript with lots of music in it. I glanced at a few pages and it looked like their were only 4 bass courses required, but perhaps I did not look at the right pages. Can you tell us what music is in this manuscript? Composers? Is it 11 course music or something else? Nancy , That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! Franc,ois-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. Franc,ois-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See [1]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web sites - [3]www.nancycarlinassociates.com [4]www.groundsanddivisions.info Representing: FROM WALES - Crasdant Carreg Lafar, FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe Jez Lowe The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths Morrongiello Young Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [5]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 4. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/ 5. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
[LUTE] Re: 4060
The Singakademie 4060 manuscript has been set on the net cause TREE EDITION paied for the scanning of the source (some hundreds of Euros). I received the Scans from Berlin in high resolution two weeks ago and now they set this source to the net. Not very kind. A printed publication is in preparation with intro and concordances by Francois Pierre Goy. Regards Albert Reyerman TREE EDITION Albert Reyerman Finkenberg 89 23558 Luebeck Germany albertreyer...@kabelmail.de www.Tree-Edition.com ++49(0)451 899 78 48 More Music Books at http://tree-edition.magix.net/public/ Am 25.04.2012 21:34, schrieb Andreas Schlegel: Dear lute netters, That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html .
[LUTE] Re: 4060
That is terrible, Albert. You have my sympathy. They used you. I look forward to reading Francois' introduction to the Tree edition! Rob MacKillop www.robmackillop.net On 25 Apr 2012, at 21:48, Albert Reyerman albertreyer...@kabelmail.de wrote: The Singakademie 4060 manuscript has been set on the net cause TREE EDITION paied for the scanning of the source (some hundreds of Euros). I received the Scans from Berlin in high resolution two weeks ago and now they set this source to the net. Not very kind. A printed publication is in preparation with intro and concordances by Francois Pierre Goy. Regards Albert Reyerman TREE EDITION Albert Reyerman Finkenberg 89 23558 Luebeck Germany albertreyer...@kabelmail.de www.Tree-Edition.com ++49(0)451 899 78 48 More Music Books at http://tree-edition.magix.net/public/ Am 25.04.2012 21:34, schrieb Andreas Schlegel: Dear lute netters, That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html .
[LUTE] Re: 4060
The world today ... Let me know when your edition is published, I'll buy a copy. David On 25 April 2012 22:48, Albert Reyerman albertreyer...@kabelmail.de wrote: The Singakademie 4060 manuscript has been set on the net cause TREE EDITION paied for the scanning of the source (some hundreds of Euros). I received the Scans from Berlin in high resolution two weeks ago and now they set this source to the net. Not very kind. A printed publication is in preparation with intro and concordances by Francois Pierre Goy. Regards Albert Reyerman TREE EDITION Albert Reyerman Finkenberg 89 23558 Luebeck Germany albertreyer...@kabelmail.de www.Tree-Edition.com ++49(0)451 899 78 48 More Music Books at http://tree-edition.magix.net/public/ Am 25.04.2012 21:34, schrieb Andreas Schlegel: Dear lute netters, That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html . -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] New lute videos
Dear Luteneters, Two new lute videos of mine are now on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-idSe5I26Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Utq4aRbu8 All the best, Michal To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Another possibility springs to mind: Bach designed and wrote music on the Lautenwerk because he liked the sound of the lute, but was more comfortable on a keyboard. Because he sat at one instrument does not mean that he was not composing for another. Hard to play? Need a bunch of edits? Most likely the same would have been true for any piece written for the lute by a non-lutenist. My $.02 Joseph Mayes On 4/25/12 2:18 PM, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote: While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the sources of Bach's original lute music in the liner notes he drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. He also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard Paul O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something like Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute. Etc. I suspect that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to some reference of the source material either really, really wants to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived ancestor of his/her own instrument. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses from the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. Very nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning! Tom An interesting post: [1]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-th is-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this- myth-is-busted-part-i/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: New lute videos
Michal-- Beautiful! Thanks! Leonard Williams On 4/25/12 5:58 PM, Michal Gondko michal.gon...@lamorra.info wrote: Dear Luteneters, Two new lute videos of mine are now on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-idSe5I26Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Utq4aRbu8 All the best, Michal To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Since I'm a hippie and believe all music should be free, some good must come from this. However, since I run a group and believe people should be paid, why don't you set up a PayPal donation event and I will be happy to chip in. And I imagine others would as well. I have often paid for mss to be scanned at libraries, knowing full well that others would benefit from these mss being bumped to the head of the inevitable line, to quote Dr. Blow. All mss will be scanned, of course. Only when? I just wish it had all been sooner before I ruined my eyes in the microfilm booth. However, I think it would be nice to share the cost. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
Take a small, thin piece of wood 5mm, 5.2mm and so on Place it carefully between the paired strings, right at the bridge, careful not to scratch the soundboard or damage your strings (you can smooth the wood if you use gut. Increase the 2nd and 3rd course width until you can hit two strings clearly and cleanly. Then measure, then adjust. Start with 5.2mm If your nut spacing is too close, you can make a very, very thin mark with a file Then move one string out wider at the nut. You will quickly find the best ratio with no math needed :) Just don't make it too wide, or the total span will be too wide. If you have very small hands, you may have to go with roughly parallel where the spacing is narrow at the bridge and a bit wider at the nut. But I dodn't advise this as it does not always work. Gottlieb's lutes are sometimes set up perfect in narrow, roughly parallel And they are really nice lutes, very interesting sound. When I was 17, I guess this would be 1972, I just could not stand this buzz. So I took a chopstick, and made tiny spacers for the nut. I made a nut, then sawed it into slices. Each slice was a pair of strings, and I moved the pieces around till I figured it out. Buzz free since then. However, the thin lines is easier. You can make a practice nut if you do not want to mess up the one you have. Incidentally, course two MUST and I mean MUST lie under the knuckle, or you will never make a good bar chord sound. That's another story Basically, with the right stroke, and the right setup, the lute is easy to play, because it was an instrument that everyone played. However, if you have not learned to strike two strings dead on, you may have some difficulty. Most people do not have the right stroke because the spacing is wrong. Then someone like Ron McFarlane can show you, or a few other people, to hit two strings. 'That's where the pedagogical skill comes in. It takes ten minutes, plain and simple, to show someone. Maybe someone could do it in five. I made a lute video recently with a macro cam that shows the stroke I use, but you are free to find your own, and everyone's hand is different. There is no right way to play. But the buzzing, the splats, it is too much--I find it unacceptable. Sure you can edit them all out in a recording--and that is exactly what happens. But what is the point? Your choice, ten years or ten minutes! Personally, if I had a lute that was not set up right, I would sell it. Too much aggravation. But some people don't mind, and the vast majority of people think their lute is just right, so that is really OK, as well. dt __ From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:32:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? I haven't come across that formula David. Can you please point me to a source for the recipe? It could save a lot of time and money! Thanks, Bill From: David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: William Samson [2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 18:57 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Simple geometry. It's all been worked out, unlike forty years ago when we worked it out. No different from buying clothes. dt At 11:55 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: A luthier would need a formula relating hand dimensions (hand span, fistmele and so on) in order to build a lute that's exactly the right size for a particular player. Without such a formula, all the luthier gets is a headache when asked to build a lute that's the right size for a particular player. If it's down to the player to decide what spacings they need, how will they determine that without having a selection of instruments to try first? Not as easy as in the time of Laux Maler as David Van Edwards so amusingly pointed out! I don't see how making exact copies of original instruments actually helps here - There are variations in these too - Compare, for example the well-known 7c Hieber with the 7c Venere of about the same size (58/59cm?). The Hieber has a wide string spacing at the nut end, and the Venere is almost impossibly narrow here for most players I know. Otherwise, there's not a lot of difference in dimensions - bridge spacing, scale, body dimensions . . . I sympathise with your point of view, but can't see how these objectives can be achieved in practice without buying, trying and then rejecting a goodish number of instruments. Bill From: David Tayler [3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
[LUTE] Re: New lute videos
I left appropriate comments on Youtube. They were just so very beautiful, a delightful treat. On Apr 26, 2012, at 6:58 AM, Michal Gondko wrote: Dear Luteneters, Two new lute videos of mine are now on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-idSe5I26Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Utq4aRbu8 All the best, Michal To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an urtext thirty years ago :) I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the fuzzier it gets. So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is just speculation. As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two things. First, that he probaly did not rent them, because they would not have been in his household inventory at the time of his death, and, second, in the extremely unlikely event that he rented them, he must have wanted them. Here's my 2 euro cents. The gamba sonatas, some of the greatest music ever written for gamba, composed on a rent-a-viol? Good thing they didn't get repo'd! And there was no ocarina on his shelf. Just instruments that happened to be used in the finest sacred pieces composed in the baroque period--the John and Matthew passions. Coincidence? Equally likely, IMHO, finding a moon rock in an astronauts luggage. And I mean no disrespect, it just seems awfully tidy. And I missing something, and maybe someone here can help me, but the page marked unplayable in the article, doesn't this work fine on the archlute? Of all the arguments, playability certainly is intriguing. dt __ From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:31:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I think the point, David, is that the music we have inherited as Bach's works for lute doesn't have any linear provenance to actually connect them to an intention by Bach for them to be performed on lute. That said, transcriptions of any Bach music are as legitimately lute as the alleged lute works. Sure, he may have dabbled on a lute in his own collection, but who knows with what music? While I own a Viennese ocarina, jaw-harp, 6-hole American cedar flute, chromatic harmonica, etc. there's little likelihood of me composing music for any of them within my lifetime. (Granted, I am not anything like a properly trained composer.) As Titmuss points out, there is some speculation Bach also rented instruments. If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect an intimate compositional familiarity with the pieces in his rental stable. Eugene -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Tayler Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:17 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it for a planter. In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext, which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and rearranged his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the organ, clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities. Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk. Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on the organ. The consistent model is that Bach composed for instruments in his house--the viol, the lute, the harpsichord, the lautenwerk, the violin, viola, and so on, as well as many other instruments. And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :) Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats. __ From: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: Luca Manassero [4]l...@manassero.net; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 7:01:08 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I won't believe it until it appears on Mythbusters :) Bill From: Luca Manassero [1][7]l...@manassero.net To: [2][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 14:37 Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted An interesting post: [1][1][3][9]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suit es- thi s-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca References 1.
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
If you follow the link and use HD plus the pause button in full screen you can see close ups of striking two strings. However, it is better to be shown how to do it by a real person :) You can see in the video that one string (the near string) goes under the other one, and both strings are plucked with a slight curved stroke. Also you can see that my fingers are well below the strings. Now I'm not saying that is the right way to do it, and, indeed, I use four or five hand positions, thumb over, thumb centre, etc, etc. Each has its own challenges, It is just one way to do it. And, really, I could not do it without the right spacing. It would be nearly impossible. So for me, what makes a good lute: setup. I can play an average or even below average lute and get a pretty good sound with the right spacing. I this case, I use thumb in: egg The other variant is thumb in: squid where the fingers are more extended. That is, the thumb is inside the hand, mostly, and the hand is shaped as if it could hold an egg. In fact, I could lay one! Most importantly, the wrist is very loose. The wrist is a biggie as far as tone goes. The video was made with a follow focus tracking so you can see everything mostly in focus. [1]http://youtu.be/soTjO9WlsAs?hd=1t=2m16s __ From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:32:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? I haven't come across that formula David. Can you please point me to a source for the recipe? It could save a lot of time and money! Thanks, Bill From: David Tayler [2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 18:57 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Simple geometry. It's all been worked out, unlike forty years ago when we worked it out. No different from buying clothes. dt At 11:55 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: A luthier would need a formula relating hand dimensions (hand span, fistmele and so on) in order to build a lute that's exactly the right size for a particular player. Without such a formula, all the luthier gets is a headache when asked to build a lute that's the right size for a particular player. If it's down to the player to decide what spacings they need, how will they determine that without having a selection of instruments to try first? Not as easy as in the time of Laux Maler as David Van Edwards so amusingly pointed out! I don't see how making exact copies of original instruments actually helps here - There are variations in these too - Compare, for example the well-known 7c Hieber with the 7c Venere of about the same size (58/59cm?). The Hieber has a wide string spacing at the nut end, and the Venere is almost impossibly narrow here for most players I know. Otherwise, there's not a lot of difference in dimensions - bridge spacing, scale, body dimensions . . . I sympathise with your point of view, but can't see how these objectives can be achieved in practice without buying, trying and then rejecting a goodish number of instruments. Bill From: David Tayler [4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 9 April 2012, 22:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are also the wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will change anytime soon: once someone buys the wrong size instrument, they either keep it or trade it in for another one that is the wrong size. So I would rate size and setup as the number one issue, based on my experience that the player will have to go through a very long retraining period after learning on a lute that is the wrong size. Why pedal backwards? Of the setup issues, the number one issue is the span and spacing. Without the right span and spacing, which reconciles two numbers, the size of the hand (and fingers) and the rules which govern the span and spacing of strings. Without these two numbers in balance, it is impossible, or very difficult to make a good sound. When these numbers are in balance, it is easy to make a good sound; in fact, it is difficult to make a bad sound. No one would wear size 4 or size 11 shoes if they are a size 9, and yet, that is precisely what happens. Sadly, people are rarely fitted to the lute, even though
[LUTE] Re: New lute videos
Very charming and lovely Michal - could not help finding out more of you and added you to my folder of favorite performers! Franz Dr. Franz Mechsner Reader Northumbria University, Dept. of Psychology Northumberland Building Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 8ST (UK) Tel: +44(0) 191 243 7479 __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Michal Gondko Sent: Wed 25.04.2012 23:58 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] New lute videos Dear Luteneters, Two new lute videos of mine are now on YouTube: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-idSe5I26Y [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Utq4aRbu8 All the best, Michal To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-idSe5I26Y 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Utq4aRbu8 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
I don't know how relevant the concept of urtext is in this case. Urtext or not, there is still no evidence to tie Bach's alleged lute suites to Bach in his hand and plenty of evidence that these are arrangements or speculation at best. There's nothing wrong with playing that music on the lute (especially because there is evidence that some folks from around that time did like to play some of these pieces on lute: e.g., Weyrauch and Falckenhagen), but I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging what info there is of its provenance either. You're right; it's all speculation. I think you have the concept of Bach's rental stable in reverse. Titmuss and others aren't arguing for Bach as renter/lessee but as lessor/owner, leasing his own stable out to paying customers. To quote the originally linked article, There is evidence that he ran an instrument rental business. If so, that sounds like a man who would own a fair number of popular instruments himself and not necessarily be proficient with every one that he did own. Best, Eugene From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of David Tayler [vidan...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an urtext thirty years ago :) I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the fuzzier it gets. So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is just speculation. As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two things. First, that he probaly did not rent them, because they would not have been in his household inventory at the time of his death, and, second, in the extremely unlikely event that he rented them, he must have wanted them. Here's my 2 euro cents. The gamba sonatas, some of the greatest music ever written for gamba, composed on a rent-a-viol? Good thing they didn't get repo'd! And there was no ocarina on his shelf. Just instruments that happened to be used in the finest sacred pieces composed in the baroque period--the John and Matthew passions. Coincidence? Equally likely, IMHO, finding a moon rock in an astronauts luggage. And I mean no disrespect, it just seems awfully tidy. And I missing something, and maybe someone here can help me, but the page marked unplayable in the article, doesn't this work fine on the archlute? Of all the arguments, playability certainly is intriguing. dt __ From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:31:40 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted I think the point, David, is that the music we have inherited as Bach's works for lute doesn't have any linear provenance to actually connect them to an intention by Bach for them to be performed on lute. That said, transcriptions of any Bach music are as legitimately lute as the alleged lute works. Sure, he may have dabbled on a lute in his own collection, but who knows with what music? While I own a Viennese ocarina, jaw-harp, 6-hole American cedar flute, chromatic harmonica, etc. there's little likelihood of me composing music for any of them within my lifetime. (Granted, I am not anything like a properly trained composer.) As Titmuss points out, there is some speculation Bach also rented instruments. If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect an intimate compositional familiarity with the pieces in his rental stable. Eugene -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Tayler Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:17 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it for a planter. In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext, which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and rearranged his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the organ, clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities. Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk. Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Ditto. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David van Ooijen Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:36 PM To: Lute net Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4060 The world today ... Let me know when your edition is published, I'll buy a copy. David On 25 April 2012 22:48, Albert Reyerman albertreyer...@kabelmail.de wrote: The Singakademie 4060 manuscript has been set on the net cause TREE EDITION paied for the scanning of the source (some hundreds of Euros). I received the Scans from Berlin in high resolution two weeks ago and now they set this source to the net. Not very kind. A printed publication is in preparation with intro and concordances by Francois Pierre Goy. Regards Albert Reyerman TREE EDITION Albert Reyerman Finkenberg 89 23558 Luebeck Germany albertreyer...@kabelmail.de www.Tree-Edition.com ++49(0)451 899 78 48 More Music Books at http://tree-edition.magix.net/public/ Am 25.04.2012 21:34, schrieb Andreas Schlegel: Dear lute netters, That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html . -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
